Is it wrong or 'jerk-ish' of me to ask my girlfriend for a pre-nup if we got married?

[BlueIris]

admittedly I have not read every single post, but I have not seen where she has said she won't sign it. What I have read so far states that she has told him if they do a prenup, that she won't have children with him.

 

Hm. Yeah, maybe she didn’t say she wouldn’t sign. I thought she said both but maybe not. (But I think that if the only thing she said was that she wouldn't have kids, that strengthens the argument for her.

 

It's a huge matter of context here.

 

She is in her right to refuse a prenup if she does not agree with it and it is in her right to chose not to marry if the marriage is contingent on a prenup that she doesn't want to do.

 

But I haven't seen where she has said that. All I have read is that she pressuring him for a ring etc…

 

I’ll play devils’ advocate on that point too. They agreed that they’d get married this year, 2016, which means that he agreed to that. I think it’s reasonable for her to expect a proposal and engagement ring if they’re getting married within the next 7 ½ months. Frankly, at this point in time, if I were her, I’d assume that the marriage isn’t going to happen regardless of this prenup issue. Which is fine.

 

… and that she won't have children if there is a prenup in place.

 

Wise move (depending on the prenup terms, the absence of which is the elephant in the room).

 

She’s in terrible financial condition now and might have to earn and save instead of having kids, depending upon the terms of the prenup that might be or might not be. That's what I'd tell her to do if I were her friend or family member: make money, accumulate your own wealth, never expect a husband or anyone to provide for you.

 

That is definitely not traditional, where things like bride wealth, bride prices, Morning gifts and the gifting of things like jewelry (engagement rings included) and household items to a bride were how women were able to have financial security during the time that they were not able to have title to other forms of wealth.

 

edited to add: People seem to get far more upset talking about money these days than they used to and that's bad for marriage, IMO.

Edited May 15, 2016 by BlueIris

[ironpony]

Yet another indication that she is bad with money. Since she has no money to voluntarily assume the debt of another is poor choice. In most developed countries . . . and Canada where OP lives has socialized medicine paid for by the State, what is there for her to pay for? This gets worse & worse.

 

 

BTW OP, I'd break out the big guns when you talk to her again. Fight emotional fire (threats to get tubes tied) with emotional fire. I'd point blank remind her that her sick father isn't getting better & wouldn't it be a shame that her unreasonable attitude may prevent this marriage so her father won't be able to die in peace knowing she's being taken care of by you.

 

 

Yes I am fully aware that my suggestion above is not all that constructive but sometimes with some people like your GF, you have to virtually hit them in the face with a proverbial 2x4.

 

Well she has to buy her father lots of pills and the pills cost money and not covered in the same socialized medicine laws that hospital and clinic treatments are.

 

Who knows? Just going on what the OP has posted here.

In addition

Is the same ex who cleaned her out now lending her money? Or is it a different one who is now subsidising her?

 

Yes this is the same ex. What happened is, is that her and her ex owned a business together. When she left him he got all the money in the business, and she poored a lot of her own into it.

 

I agree that her money management and dependency are problems, but separate problems.

 

 

 

I think that this is unfair. They are each giving ultimatums:

He’s saying, “I want a prenup if we get married.”

She’s saying, “I won’t sign a prenup.”

 

What prenup? What terms? She’s supposed to say, “yeah, I’ll sign whatever you put in front of me”?

 

It’s OP’s responsibility to get this ball rolling, get educated by a local attorney and get his terms framed before negotiation can even begin.

 

It’s also unfair to condemn her for considering not having children together if there is this undefined prenup.

 

In my state, a prenup can include terms that allow parties to keep the income and the assets acquired during the marriage separate in the event of divorce. (OP, that’s why you NEED to define your terms and know what YOUR jurisdiction allows.) I’ve seen cases of 10+ year marriages with kids and a stay at home mom, and the prenup provided for H to keep the assets he acquired during the marriage separate or provided for lump sum or set property settlements.

 

In one case, the stay at home mom of the two children of the marriage got nothing but child support and a QDRO- zero property settlement and it was a community property state. You bet she should have worked throughout the marriage. She should not have had kids and sacrificed or impaired her ability to acquire her own separate assets.

 

When he got remarried he presented a similar prenup to his fiancé and she signed it (against advice of her counsel), but they were not going to have children and she was going to continue working.

 

I have an appointment with the lawyer and even told her that I wanted to go over everything together and we would both come to an agreement. Not all the money would go to me and I would only have some of it, just in case. But we need to work out what is what I told her. But she says she doesn't want to look over anything at all, and not sign anything at all.

 

Agreed that these TWO can't communicate yet.

 

Popular conceptions of prenups are that they are rigid one-sided protections for the wealthier party and they are perceived as ultimatums, take-it-or-leave-it prerequisites to the marriage. Most people don't realize that prenups can be unenforceable if they are so imbalanced and presented on a take it or leave it basis, and that they can provide terms that protect BOTH parties- and should. For instance, lots of prenups include annuities and life insurance policies for the non-earner, graduated property rights for certain number of years of marriage, the birth of children, disability, etc.

 

He's the one who wants a contract so he'd better put one together.

 

I'd advise her to just wait to see what he proposes and whether he presents it on a take it or leave it basis.

 

If I were in her position and my fiancé was talking about some theoretical prenup I wouldn't vomit-- but I'd probably laugh at him as he talked about some ephemeral dream document. But I know what a prenup can include (darn near anything where I live), how to balance rights and obligations, and how to negotiate an agreement. She doesn't. If I were in her position, I'd just be annoyed that he was talking about something in a void and not doing anything to resolve this theoretical problem.

 

But I made an appointment and wanted her to go over things with me I told her, after she saw that I made an appointment in my email. Is that not trying to solve the theoretical problem?

 

Hm. Yeah, maybe she didn’t say she wouldn’t sign. I thought she said both but maybe not. (But I think that if the only thing she said was that she wouldn't have kids, that strengthens the argument for her.

 

 

 

I’ll play devils’ advocate on that point too. They agreed that they’d get married this year, 2016, which means that he agreed to that. I think it’s reasonable for her to expect a proposal and engagement ring if they’re getting married within the next 7 ½ months. Frankly, at this point in time, if I were her, I’d assume that the marriage isn’t going to happen regardless of this prenup issue. Which is fine.

 

 

 

Wise move (depending on the prenup terms, the absence of which is the elephant in the room).

 

She’s in terrible financial condition now and might have to earn and save instead of having kids, depending upon the terms of the prenup that might be or might not be. That's what I'd tell her to do if I were her friend or family member: make money, accumulate your own wealth, never expect a husband or anyone to provide for you.

 

That is definitely not traditional, where things like bride wealth, bride prices, Morning gifts and the gifting of things like jewelry (engagement rings included) and household items to a bride were how women were able to have financial security during the time that they were not able to have title to other forms of wealth.

 

edited to add: People seem to get far more upset talking about money these days than they used to and that's bad for marriage, IMO.

 

We agreed to get married and I just gave her the ring two weeks ago to ensure her that I meant what I said.

 

 

But we have talked more since my last post and now she is saying that since I was planning on talking to her about the prenup after talking to a lawyer, without even speaking to her about it first, I went behind her back and was dishonest about it. I kept saying she needs to look it over, before we discuss anything else, but she says that I have turned cold and evil, and have attempted to give her an ultimatum myself, especially by going behind her back and not planning on telling her till after I talked to the lawyer.

 

She says that my philosophy is, is that I am asking her "I love you and let's get married... but you have to sign a prenup first".

 

When she puts it like that it makes me feel materialistic, and she says I am being that, over love. She says that I am not rich like Donald Trump, and am therefore making too big of a deal out this and am too much about money and being too materialistic.

 

She also says that since I lived in my parents basement for a few years to save up all the money I have, I am a freeloader, compared to her, who has spent all her money on living on her own, and paying for things that are important. I am not sure where she was going with that, but does she have a point?

Edited May 15, 2016 by ironpony

[bathtub-row]

I think most people here see that you have several problems with his girl. But it's as though you expect a woman to be unreasonable and to make threats that are off-the-charts ridiculous. For some reason, you just want to persist with this relationship so I'd suggest that you do just that. Sometimes lessons have to be learned the hard way.

 

Btw, if your marriage lasts and the pre-nup is never needed, this woman loves to dish out the threats and ultimatums. And when that doesn't work, she uses tears or some other form of manipulation. This has trouble written all over it.

[ironpony]

Well I guess she really seems to love me back, cause of all the effort she has put into it. Why help me out with several things like she has, and why would she cry so much and want to keep making more effort with me, when she can just go for another guy, if she doesn't really love me? I thought the tears were genuine, and thought maybe she just making a big deal out of it?

[bathtub-row]

I'm not saying she doesn't love you. What I'm saying is that her behavior is very immature and manipulative.

[CarrieT]

Well I guess she really seems to love me back, cause of all the effort she has put into it.

If she loves you, she will understand the need to investigate a prenup (not necessarily get one, but at least be responsible enough to see if it is warranted!), and COMPROMISE - not offer ultimatums.

[ironpony]

Well she may still stick around hopefully, to investigate one with me. What if I feel it is needed after, even if it's just for me to protect a few of my assets, but not all. What then?

[BettyDraper]

Well she read my email while she was on my computer (not that she snuck on, I let her borrow it while I was out and my gmail must have been open, when she went to log into hers), and saw that I had made an appointment with a lawyer, cause the email title headline had the word prenup in, when the lawyer emailed me back.

 

So she says I went behind her back with the lawyer thing, since I did not tell her, but I told her that the reason I didn't tell her I was going to talk to one, was because I wanted to find out what the laws are first, on the whole thing, cause it might not have even made a difference, with the assets I have. I just wanted to see what the options were legally first before telling her.

 

But she says I went behind her back, and she is now very upset. I told her that we should go over the options together and will pay for whole thing. I told her we will only sign if he agree to each other's terms and come up with OUR own plan, but if not then she doesn't have to sign.

 

So she said that if she signs any prenup, no matter what the options she will not have kids with me and will get her tubes tide now. Those are her terms. She and I wanted to have kids in the future, in the marriage, but now she does not cause of the prenup and will get her tubes tide she said. But she says that she is okay, and everything is fine and seems calmed down and okay with the whole thing, accept for the one new term of hers.

 

So what is the next move, or what do you make of this? How should I respond?

 

Ask yourself why do you want to marry such a manipulative person. Do you think love is enough for spending the rest of your life with a woman if she can't even have a mature discussion about finances? Since your girlfriend thinks that you didn't need a prenup, she shouldn't mind signing one because it is a meaningless piece of paper to her.

 

Living independently is no reason why someone must be terrible with money. Your fiancee is belittling you in order to bend you to her will.

 

I don't think you care about some important issues which have been brought up in this thread. It's as if you are determined to make a very foolish decision.

[ironpony]

Well she now is telling me that in order to get married the love has to be unconditional, where as I am imposing too big of a condition.

 

I talked about it with my friend and I told her how I was used for money by a woman in the past, which is true, and that back then, the experience hardened me, and I vowed to not make the same mistake again.

 

I told her that if I do not sign a pre-nup with her, and she gets have all of her conditions, where as I get none of my own, that I feel like I would be breaking my vow and would lose my dignity or self respect.

 

My gf says that my past experience has jaded me, and made me become too cold.

 

My friend who I talked to says that that's not true, because our past experiences make us who we are, and she understands how if I give in to all of her conditions, then I she understands how I feel I would loose my dignity.

 

But she says that in a marriage, the love should be unconditional, and that if she signs a prenup, then she is just giving into my condition I am imposing on her, and she will loose her self respect.

[NTV]

Love is never unconditional. For example fidelity is a big condition too.

 

Be fair to yourself here. Start journal to track what she says.

[elaine567]

It's an impasse.

She is not going to give in and I do not think you should give in either.

YOU could lose a lot of money here.

She has been a businesswoman, so she is not some naive little 18 yo, caught up in the fairytale romance of marriage, so her actions need to be scrutinised carefully here.

I DO NOT like how the ex she was in business with, is still involved in her finances and it worries me that THEY see you as a naive and besotted cash cow who will solve all their money flow problems in an instant, the moment the divorce is finalised.

It may explain the over the top reaction to the suggestion of a prenup, her little moneymaking scheme was going belly up, she was in danger of losing it all.

She is now trying her hardest to manipulate you into binning the prenup, using "having kids" as an emotional blackmail tool and blaming you for "going behind her back".

 

I know you do not want to hear it but it is just too risky for you to get further involved with this woman, there is the potential here of getting into a marriage with no prenup, the potential of losing your money, and the potential of having no kids.

YOUR gut is screaming here, I suggest you listen to it.

[ironpony]

Okay thanks. I just feel there was another resolution to this problem other than imposing a pre-nup.

 

One person said on here way back on the thread, that after the divorce, her husband took out a good portion of the money from the bank, and took off with it.

 

Now if a divorce were to hypothetically happen, and I did that, I would still leave her a large amount, I would just take off with a cut, and maybe that would better than a prenup, cause she said that the cops did not bother to make a case out of it, with a case that was not a high priority.

 

Perhaps maybe something like that is better than a prenup, since she is so turned off at the very idea.

 

I don't know. Maybe I am just... I don't know.

[bathtub-row]

I think the part you're missing is all the hoops she's jumping through on this issue. She's using manipulation, emotional blackmail, and who knows what else. And this crap about love being unconditional is just crap. Even she doesn't demonstrate unconditional love because if she did, she wouldn't object to the pre-nup.

 

I'm here to tell you like everyone else is trying to tell you - but you just don't want to hear it - this woman is manipulating you and, if I were in your shoes, I wouldn't marry her for any reason at this point, not after everything she has said and done. This pre-nup issue has exposed who she really is. It's up to you to recognize that. You are dumbstruck by her and because of that, you're about to repeat your past experience of being used for your money.

 

If you marry her, you're going to be faced with more problems than just money. You do understand that no loving, decent woman in this world would object to a man wanting to protect his assets, nor would she dream of threatening him with no children. How is it that you just can't see how wrong her behavior is?

[CarrieT]

But she says that in a marriage, the love should be unconditional, and that if she signs a prenup, then she is just giving into my condition I am imposing on her, and she will loose her self respect.

The LOVE is unconditional so why is she wrapping up FEELINGS with things that are essentially just business contracts? Because that is what a marriage certificate ultimately is: The joining of two financial entities and it is prudent to protect those entities.

 

Yes this is the same ex. What happened is, is that her and her ex owned a business together. When she left him he got all the money in the business, and she poured a lot of her own into it.

Here, my friends, is your argument... She had a business with her ex and when SHE left, he got all the assets. How does she feel about that? If she had to do it over again, don't you think she would have thought about protecting herself and her assets? She should have received some benefits to all she put into the business and had their been a business contract (i.e., the same as a prenup), then she would have left that relationship with some of the assets of that business. She wouldn't be in a place now where she has to "borrow" money from the Ex.

 

If she can't see the logic of this situation as it stands now, than you and she will be a perpetual circular bind of repeating the same arguments regarding this situation (well, heck you ARE!). She won't sign a pre-nup because she is trying to regain some of the lost wealth she threw away by starting a business with someone and losing out. Perhaps she thinks she can bully you into a marriage and win out like she didn't before.

 

My friend, you are screwed if you marry this woman without a prenup because - I believe - she will take you for all you have and then some....

[elaine567]

Okay thanks. I just feel there was another resolution to this problem other than imposing a pre-nup.

 

One person said on here way back on the thread, that after the divorce, her husband took out a good portion of the money from the bank, and took off with it.

 

Now if a divorce were to hypothetically happen, and I did that, I would still leave her a large amount, I would just take off with a cut, and maybe that would better than a prenup, cause she said that the cops did not bother to make a case out of it, with a case that was not a high priority.

 

Perhaps maybe something like that is better than a prenup, since she is so turned off at the very idea.

 

I don't know. Maybe I am just... I don't know.

 

In the case of most joint accounts, it is possible for one person to run off with ALL the money, leaving the other to fight for their half in court.

I do not think we are specifically worried that YOU will run off with the money, we are worried here about her running off with the money, spending all your money or siphoning it off, fighting you in court and leaving you with very little.

See the lawyer and find out what the worst case scenario is and suss out where you are most vulnerable.

With a manipulative woman like this, she can persuade you to almost anything as she can always fling "love" into the ring.

Edited May 16, 2016 by elaine567

[oldshirt]

From your posts, you appear too naïve and trusting and are too emotionally invested in this to make rational, nuts and bolts decisions on this.

 

 

My advice is to discuss this thoroughly with a good attorney and then do what the attorney says.

[NTV]

Dude, any one that can use these underhanded tactics against her fiancé can and will use them against their own kids. They lack the ethical or moral boundary to stop themselves from doing so.

 

 

So ask yourself: if you have kids with this woman and she does this **** to them... and they aren't old enough to see the red flags you do... how jacked up will they be?

 

 

Do you want messed up kids?

[ironpony]

In the case of most joint accounts, it is possible for one person to run off with ALL the money, leaving the other to fight for their half in court.

I do not think we are specifically worried that YOU will run off with the money, we are worried here about her running off with the money, spending all your money or siphoning it off, fighting you in court and leaving you with very little.

See the lawyer and find out what the worst case scenario is and suss out where you are most vulnerable.

With a manipulative woman like this, she can persuade you to almost anything as she can always fling "love" into the ring.

 

I thought that even with a prenup though, that a person can still drain all the money out, and the police would probably not bother to get it back, even if there was a signed prenup. So I thought if she were going to drain it, a prenup would still probably do no good. Some people I asked said they were useless in the real world, and I my point on her getting to sign one, is moot, with today's police, since they won't actually get the money back if something happens.

 

Some people told me that a prenup does not do actual good in the real world, if someone wanted to take your money. But is that not true?

Edited May 17, 2016 by ironpony

[elaine567]

I thought that even with a prenup though, that a person can still drain all the money out, and the police would probably not bother to get it back, even if there was a signed prenup. So I thought if she were going to drain it, a prenup would still probably do no good. Some people I asked said they were useless in the real world, and I my point on her getting to sign one, is moot, with today's police, since they won't actually get the money back if something happens.

 

It's not a police matter, it is not about theft, a joint account works on the premise that both parties are entitled to remove cash.

It would be up to divorce lawyers to take the fact one person is now in sole possession of "joint" assets to take that into consideration in the final divorce settlement.

[bathtub-row]

It's simple. They have a joint account that has a limited amount of funds in it. Then he has an account in his name only that she has zero access to. No debit card, etc. In this case, it's the only safe way to keep her from spending it all or running off with it.

[NTV]

Why would he even get married to someone he already knows is likely to financial destroy him?

[ironpony]

It's simple. They have a joint account that has a limited amount of funds in it. Then he has an account in his name only that she has zero access to. No debit card, etc. In this case, it's the only safe way to keep her from spending it all or running off with it.

 

But if I can do this, then what is the point of a prenup, when there is this option? I talked to her and she is cool with this option and doesn't mind having split accounts. So why is she objecting to a prenup so bad, yet is totally cool with this option?

[NTV]

But if I can do this, then what is the point of a prenup, when there is this option? I talked to her and she is cool with this option and doesn't mind having split accounts. So why is she objecting to a prenup so bad, yet is totally cool with this option?

 

Because even if you took the money out, she'd still legally be entitled to a part of it. With the prenup, she's not.

[ironpony]

Yeah that's what I thought. Thank you everyone for your advice and taking the time. It means a lot to me.

 

I have thought a lot about it and I guess there are two reasons why I feel doubt about presenting her with a prenup ultimatum.

 

1. Some have said that she is using me or is too much about my money, but she really seems to love me because of all the things she does for me. She has helped me raise several fundraisers. She gets me gifts that she thinks I would like, and I don't even ask her for any of the things. When it comes t the gifts, I even tell her it's okay, take it back and save your money, but thank you.

 

I don't even ask for help with any of my business projects or anything like that, but she comes up with ideas on her own and helps me, cause she loves me she says.

 

2. People on here are saying that she has given me an ultimatum and that's not good, but I feel like a hypocrite, cause I feel like I have given the first ultimatum, which is the prenup. She is only countering the first one I gave her, but I feel that I am in not position to think of her as an ultimatum giver, since I gave the first one.

 

I did it cause I said I feel like I would have some of dignity stripped away, if I gave in and did not sign one, and that comes from past experience with people, taking advantage. But she says that I am letting my past issues, put her on the same list as THOSE people, who are definitely not good people compared to her. I definitely rank her higher.

 

She says by doing that, that I am taking her dignity away, but putting her in that same category, by asking her to sign one, cause of my past insecurities. My friend said she doesn't agree with this, and it's that our experiences who make up who we are, and it's okay to act on what we have learned. But maybe I have become too jaded and am putting her in the same lump as others who have taken away my dignity in the past I feel, by asking her to sign one.

 

What do you think? These two reasons keep giving me doubt. I almost took the ring back to the store, but couldn't quite cause a feeling inside kept saying I may regret it, and may be being double-standard-ish for those two reasons.

 

Is my ultimatum really more dignified compared to her counter one?

 

Plus I feel that maybe my ultimatum is too shallow or materialistic. Is it even necessary? I talked about it with my parents and they said that I should just give my money for a house to them, then they by the house, and let me live in it, but keep it legally themselves, hypothetically if the marriage was not work out. And then they would give it back to me and sign it over.

 

I mean doing things that way, seems easy and does not require all this prenup drama, which I am sacrificing a gf with all these other good qualities over, when the only problems seemed to have come from the prenup ultimatum I started.

 

What do you think?

Edited May 17, 2016 by ironpony

[BettyDraper]

Yeah that's what I thought. Thank you everyone for your advice and taking the time. It means a lot to me.

 

I have thought a lot about it and I guess there are two reasons why I feel doubt about presenting her with a prenup ultimatum.

 

1. Some have said that she is using me or is too much about my money, but she really seems to love me because of all the things she does for me. She has helped me raise several fundraisers. She gets me gifts that she thinks I would like, and I don't even ask her for any of the things. When it comes t the gifts, I even tell her it's okay, take it back and save your money, but thank you.

 

I don't even ask for help with any of my business projects or anything like that, but she comes up with ideas on her own and helps me, cause she loves me she says.

 

2. People on here are saying that she has given me an ultimatum and that's not good, but I feel like a hypocrite, cause I feel like I have given the first ultimatum, which is the prenup. She is only countering the first one I gave her, but I feel that I am in not position to think of her as an ultimatum giver, since I gave the first one.

 

I did it cause I said I feel like I would have some of dignity stripped away, if I gave in and did not sign one, and that comes from past experience with people, taking advantage. But she says that I am letting my past issues, put her on the same list as THOSE people, who are definitely not good people compared to her. I definitely rank her higher.

 

She says by doing that, that I am taking her dignity away, but putting her in that same category, by asking her to sign one, cause of my past insecurities. My friend said she doesn't agree with this, and it's that our experiences who make up who we are, and it's okay to act on what we have learned. But maybe I have become too jaded and am putting her in the same lump as others who have taken away my dignity in the past I feel, by asking her to sign one.

 

What do you think? These two reasons keep giving me doubt. I almost took the ring back to the store, but couldn't quite cause a feeling inside kept saying I may regret it, and may be being double-standard-ish for those two reasons.

 

Is my ultimatum really more dignified compared to her counter one?

 

Plus I feel that maybe my ultimatum is too shallow or materialistic. Is it even necessary? I talked about it with my parents and they said that I should just give my money for a house to them, then they by the house, and let me live in it, but keep it legally themselves, hypothetically if the marriage was not work out. And then they would give it back to me and sign it over.

 

I mean doing things that way, seems easy and does not require all this prenup drama, which I am sacrificing a gf with all these other good qualities over, when the only problems seemed to have come from the prenup ultimatum I started.

 

What do you think?

 

Your girlfriend's manipulative personality and immaturity have nothing to do with your prenup requirement. The prenup discussion only brought those characteristics out in the open.

 

Speaking of others taking advantage of you and robbing you of your dignity, if your intuition is telling you that your girlfriend is also taking you for a ride, you may want to explore those emotions some more before you make a huge mistake.

 

Many LSA members have already told you what we think but it looks like you are looking for a certain answer. I say that because you continue to ask the same questions repeatedly and making excuses for your girlfriend's threats.