Is it wrong or 'jerk-ish' of me to ask my girlfriend for a pre-nup if we got married?

[ironpony]

I just thought she had a point, that I was the one who made the first ultimatum and threat by wanting a pre-nup in the first place, and lumping her into the same category as others that maybe I should not. So I felt maybe I was wrong for doing that.

[d0nnivain]

If you were trying to shove a prenup down her throat on a take it or leave it basis, that would be a problem. It also would not be an enforceable prenup. To be valid there has to be a negotiated agreement with each side having their own lawyer.

 

 

If you have so little trust that you actually think your spouse would clean out the bank account & run, don't get married. You have no proper foundation.

[ironpony]

But I was told on here that it's up to me to decide whether or not a prenup is a deal breaker or not. Isn't that he giving her an ultimatum as well? I was told that is is fair of me to tell her to take it or leave it? I am fine with her coming up with her own terms, but she won't do that with me and I have to get her the ultimatum of wanting to agree to one. Sorry I explained it wrong. I am not shoving a prenup down her throat, but am I still shoving the want for us to both come up with one down her throat. Is that unfair of me and an ultimatum?

Edited May 18, 2016 by ironpony

[BlueIris]

If you were trying to shove a prenup down her throat on a take it or leave it basis, that would be a problem. It also would not be an enforceable prenup. To be valid there has to be a negotiated agreement with each side having their own lawyer.

 

That's right.

 

OP, did you talk to a lawyer yet, just to educate yourself and have the lawyer advise you on what is possible/enforceable and what would suit your goals while still being fair?

 

If not, do that.

 

Until you do, you're debating something theoretical, which can cause both of you unnecessary worry.

[CarrieT]

OP, you are talking about funds in bank accounts. I will refer you back to a post I made on the first page regarding any business you may start or own while married. Without a prenup, she may have rights to those assets which could ultimately destroy said business.

 

Again, when/if you see a lawyer, they will be able to explain these are things to do where you are now creating repetitive, circular arguments in this thread by retreading the same material.

[ironpony]

The lawyer I contacted hasn't gotten back to yet on certain things. Maybe I should find a new one. But I don't think she will allow me the time to find a new one as her patience is going to run out.

 

She is so depressed she said she was having suicidal feelings, and that's not good. I am so heartbroken over this whole thing.

[BlueIris]

The lawyer I contacted hasn't gotten back to yet on certain things. Maybe I should find a new one.

 

Hey, good! Did you meet with the lawyer and lay out what your goals are? You had the appointment this week, right?

[anna121]

The lawyer I contacted hasn't gotten back to yet on certain things. Maybe I should find a new one. But I don't think she will allow me the time to find a new one as her patience is going to run out.

 

She is so depressed she said she was having suicidal feelings, and that's not good. I am so heartbroken over this whole thing.

 

Call 911. Or call her out on her manipulation.

[ironpony]

Hey, good! Did you meet with the lawyer and lay out what your goals are? You had the appointment this week, right?

 

No he canceled the appointment yesterday, and asked if we could reschedule. I said sure, but need to hear back from him now.

 

What about what I said though about feeling like a hypocrite since I am giving her an ultimatum just like she is me?

Edited May 18, 2016 by ironpony

[NTV]

No he canceled the appointment yesterday, and asked if we could reschedule. I said sure, but need to hear back from him now.

 

What about what I said though about feeling like a hypocrite since I am giving her an ultimatum just like she is me?

 

 

 

It's different. You saying you want a prenup before marriage is like saying you want to wear a condom before you get it on.

 

 

If you were hypothetically with a different woman, and you said you wanted to use a condom, and they made a big fuss of it and wailed and threatened you... what would you think?

 

 

 

 

I know I would think 'the reaction doesn't match the request, this chick is either trying to give me an std or get knocked up'.

 

 

Does that make sense the way I said it? Kinda?

 

 

Let me add one more point that I don't know if you've considered:

 

Your fiancé has tried to manipulate you over this prenup with everything from babies to suicide.

[BettyDraper]

The lawyer I contacted hasn't gotten back to yet on certain things. Maybe I should find a new one. But I don't think she will allow me the time to find a new one as her patience is going to run out.

 

She is so depressed she said she was having suicidal feelings, and that's not good. I am so heartbroken over this whole thing.

 

This is a very high level of Machiavellianism from your fiancee. I going to go out on a limb here and say that she is not truly suicidal because the timing for such feelings is far too convenient. If your fiancee truly wanted to end her life, she would have been experiencing suicidal ideation long before you mentioned the prenup. Normally I would advise you to handle this situation with gentle compassion but your fiancee only cares about getting her way.

 

Call her bluff. "If you killed yourself, I would miss you terribly but it wouldn't stop me from requiring a prenup when I want to marry someone in the future." This is very harsh but conniving types need to be beaten at their own game. If your fiancee makes a suicide attempt, call the ambulance and then let her know that you will not discuss marriage with someone who needs to focus on her mental health. I wouldn't put suicidal gestures past this woman.

 

When I read your posts, I notice that you seem to be a people pleaser who is easily led by those who just want to take from you. I say this because you have mentioned others taking advantage of you in the past, yet your fiancee is still permitted to control you with frightening levels of deviousness.

 

You may want to read about Borderline Personality Disorder.

[BlueIris]

No he canceled the appointment yesterday, and asked if we could reschedule. I said sure, but need to hear back from him now.

 

What about what I said though about feeling like a hypocrite since I am giving her an ultimatum just like she is me?

 

Make other appointments to get this done now.

 

Most importantly, you must see a local lawyer who does prenups frequently because pretty much all discussion about this prenup is speculation until you do. To me, you’re making a demand, but because you don’t have the proposed terms of your prenup defined yet, it’s just a huge stress-inducer for both of you.

 

Many people believe that prenups are one-way protections for only one person on a take it or leave it basis. Yeah, that’s an ultimatum. So I wasn’t shocked that both she and your friend thought that they’re bad. Lots of people think that they’re bad and, you know, they can be bad. It depends upon what terms you start with and what terms you require when you negotiate. But she doesn’t know those yet. You don’t even know those yet. You’ve got to talk to a lawyer and decide what terms you want. That’s how you fix this, not by trying to convince her that something undefined is good or right, or deciding who's good or bad when nothing has been defined.

 

Let’s say you require that the prenup states that in the event of divorce, she receives no part of any business you start. Sounds simple. But it might not be fair and might not be enforceable. So, for instance, if you start a business with premarital seed money and then over the course of the next 20 years, you two both work in the business without salaries, or you work 14 hours a day while she does all the parenting and family and house work so you’re free to pour your efforts into that business, which becomes the only asset you have, and you have a good marriage… but at the 20 year mark you cheat on her- Is that fair if gets zero property settlement? Is that what you’d want? Is it enforceable where you live? Do you want terms for no alimony? There are many possibilities. Gotta get it defined.

 

DON’T make a decision about whether you should have a prenup without discussing all of this with a lawyer. You, individually, need to hammer out exactly what you’d want and how you would want to protect her too. Earlier in the thread someone mentioned that they’d signed a prenup with a vesting clause- yeah, lots of people have vesting clauses for various reasons.

 

Think of it this way. Imagine you’re starting a new company and you say to a potential supplier, “I want to buy some stuff from you.” That’s all you say- you don’t say what stuff, how much stuff, what you want to pay. Imagine that every couple days you called him and said, “I want to buy some stuff from you.” … see what I mean? It doesn’t make sense. You have to decide what you want and THEN make an offer.

 

Sure, there are definitely prenup terms that I would NEVER agree to, and some I would. So get it done.

 

And don’t rely on a bunch of strangers- like me!- to define this for you.

 

You can fix this by talking to a lawyer yourself, alone, and deciding what what terms you want and THEN talk to her. Do that.

Edited May 18, 2016 by BlueIris

[d0nnivain]

What about what I said though about feeling like a hypocrite since I am giving her an ultimatum just like she is me?

 

Even though it is kind of an ultimatum you saying we have to have a deep meaningful full disclosure conversation about finances before we get married is a sensible thing. That may or may not end up in a pre-nup but that seems to be where the conversation has to start. To demand a conversation is prudent not a destructive ultimatum.

 

In response she said she won't have kids with you and now she's threatening suicide?! Just wow. This woman you love so much does not have the emotional maturity to be married. How can you not see that? If these are her reactions now -- to throw emotionally manipulative tantrums -- what will happen if there is a real problem? Think about it. Seriously what do you think she would do if you got injured & couldn't work for a year? What would happen if your house burned down in a fire? What would happen if you ended up with a Special Needs child? The vow are "for better OR worse" "in good times AND in bad" for a reason. All I see is an immature fair weather woman here. Be very careful & proceed with extreme caution.

[BlueIris]

Yeah, just break up with her. And go NC immediately.

 

Don’t bother talking to a lawyer.

 

It's been 5 weeks or so anyway since the whole prenup thing came up and you haven't done it, so don't you think that you've known at some level that you don't want this marriage?

 

Break it off and go NC.

[bathtub-row]

She is so depressed she said she was having suicidal feelings, and that's not good. I am so heartbroken over this whole thing.

 

I'm curious as to how many other ways she's going to find to guilt trip you or manipulate you. And how many times you're going to fall for it. You may think you're heartbroken now, just wait until you marry this manipulator. You haven't seen anything yet.

 

Any words about suicide would be a death sentence for any relationship I'm in. Over and out.

[bathtub-row]

Yeah, just break up with her. And go NC immediately.

 

Don’t bother talking to a lawyer.

 

It's been 5 weeks or so anyway since the whole prenup thing came up and you haven't done it, so don't you think that you've known at some level that you don't want this marriage?

 

Break it off and go NC.

 

This right here -- that's your solution.

[BlueIris]

But, you know, next time, talk to a lawyer and know what you’re talking about before you tell someone you want a prenup because there are deal-breaker prenups and there are reasonable prenups. Not knowing that, not knowing what you’d be requiring, and not being able to explain it to her is just messing with her.

[ironpony]

But she says she will not sign a prenup no matter what kind of prenup it is. She says she doesn't care what it will say, and doesn't care that I talk to a lawyer, she will not sign any, period.

 

I don't mean to mess with her, but whatever options I offer her she says no prenup, period.

[TunaCat]

But she says she will not sign a prenup no matter what kind of prenup it is. She says she doesn't care what it will say, and doesn't care that I talk to a lawyer, she will not sign any, period.

 

I don't mean to mess with her, but whatever options I offer her she says no prenup, period.

 

Then the two of you have reached an impasse. Break it off with her.

[ironpony]

Do you think I am being shallow and materialistic though? Making the relationship about money and not about love? It's not her who says that though. I talked about it with my best friend, he said that he on her side, and I need to provide for my woman, and wanting a prenup, I am showing distrust in the relationship.

[CarrieT]

Do you think I am being shallow and materialistic though? Making the relationship about money and not about love? It's not her who says that though. I talked about it with my best friend, he said that he on her side, and I need to provide for my woman, and wanting a prenup, I am showing distrust in the relationship.

 

Why are you asking the same questions you asked at the beginning of this thread? You are either going to go through with it or not. Marry her or not.

 

Which is it?

[TunaCat]

Do you think I am being shallow and materialistic though? Making the relationship about money and not about love? It's not her who says that though. I talked about it with my best friend, he said that he on her side, and I need to provide for my woman, and wanting a prenup, I am showing distrust in the relationship.

 

Absolutely not. I think you are being sensible and thinking ahead and not just focusing on love. As a woman, I would not get married without a prenup that takes care of both of us if the marriage fails. Love does not conquer all no matter what all the fairytales told us when we were kids.

[ironpony]

But I don't think she is going to become more interested in a prenup cause of better terms in it for her. She told me that it's either marry her without a prenup or do not marry her at all, cause she is not going to sign one no matter what is in it at all. She is willing to do other things for me in the finances, and made suggestions such as having separate bank accounts or things like that. But she will not marry with a prenup, no matter what it is in it, and will not see a lawyer to talk about it, even if she doesn't have to pay. And no couples counseling is going to change her mind either she says.

 

So with this in mind, assuming she is not bluffing and this is the worst case scenario, what should I do?

[getsmartie]

I didn't read the whole thing....just your first and last post.

 

I'm a woman whose 51 and when my bf and I get married you'd be darn sure he will sign up or no marriage.

 

Your gf is behaving like a child and it certainly sounds like she would be capable of stripping you of half.

 

Think carefully....

[ironpony]

Well I am confused as to what to do now.

 

Some are saying it's completely fair of me to want a prenup before getting married, and others are saying that 200k is not a lot of money and I am being too materialistic and self righteous about the issue, over love.

 

I even asked my two friends on their opinion. I told them that because of my past experiences, I vowed to get a prenup, after I have had been taken advantage of in the past.

 

One friend said that she agrees that if I break my how, I'll end up loosing my self respect, since it's the vow I made to myself, and your vows make you who you are to yourself, she said.

 

The other friend disagreed and he said that I am letting my past experiences put my gf in the same category as those other women before, and that's not fair to her, and I am putting too much emphasis on the vow, rather than love and happiness together. But the other friend disagreed saying that by keeping the vow, I am not putting her in a category and it's not about her.

 

But when I made the vow, I didn't say I only vow to let certain people of a lower category not be in a position to take advantage of me. I vowed never to let anyone period.

 

What do you think?

Edited May 19, 2016 by ironpony