Is it wrong or 'jerk-ish' of me to ask my girlfriend for a pre-nup if we got married?

[ironpony]

Okay thanks. I haven't been thinking about a prenup lately, and have been concentrating on her personality since people were saying their are bigger issues at play here.

 

But if none of those issues have to do with money (since she is against the prenup), then what are they?

[BettyDraper]

Okay thanks. I haven't been thinking about a prenup lately, and have been concentrating on her personality since people were saying their are bigger issues at play here.

 

But if none of those issues have to do with money (since she is against the prenup), then what are they?

 

Are you serious right now?

 

You have been told ad nauseam what red flags your girlfriend has been exhibiting.

 

Either you are being obstinate because you're going to marry her no matter what or you have not been paying attention:

 

1. She is manipulative. Uses suicide, children and unfounded accusations of abuse to get her way.
   
2. She is verbally abusive. Says demeaning things and throws tantrums.
   
3. She is entitled. She has nothing of her own but she wants all of what you have just because you grew up with more money and you are smarter with your income.
   
4. She is horrible with money while you are very mature about managing income. This is a huge incompatibility issue.
   

[Blanco]

Reading this thread for the first time, and seeing that it was 32 pages, I thought, "Oh man, I can't wait to find out where this goes!" Imagine my disappointment when I had caught up, only to realize that really not much of anything has happened.

 

OP, I'm of the mind that you're being used. This long ago ceased to be just about the prenup. In my eyes, the prenup is almost irrelevant; useful only in that it was what opened the floodgates to reveal this woman's true character.

 

Make no mistake: She's entitled to feel a certain way about prenups, though she sounds woefully uninformed about them. This doesn't mean you need to downplay her actions or outright ignore warning signs.

 

Some points to consider:

 

1) She freakin' vomited over the thought that you wanted a prenup.

 

2) She used children as a bargaining chip. Any woman who truly wanted children wouldn't dream of depriving themselves of such a gift over something like a prenup.

 

3) She said she was going to withhold sex from you. You aren't owed sex, but again, she's using a "commodity" to gain leverage. It doesn't matter if she didn't follow through. It still shows she would rather use threats and manipulation rather than effectively communicate and resolve issues like a functional adult.

 

4) Everything is somehow your fault. That's almost never the case in any relationship.

 

5) She's verbally combative. Telling you that you've got no balls? Dude, a girl says something anything in the realm of that to me and it's game over. Not because it's an indictment of my manhood, but because it means I'm with someone who wants to fight dirty. It's about how you argue; not that you argue. Character assassination = bye, bye.

 

6) She's almost 40 and has no money. But she thinks she knows best when it comes to a major financial decision?

 

7) She can't compromise. Even when you think she's about to, she flip-flops, like with the counseling thing.

 

Bottom line, don't let your relative lack of success with women over the years make you think you deserve no better than the type of woman who does even half of the above numbered items.

[ironpony]

Okay thanks. She keeps apologizing and says she wants to work things out, and get better as a person, and be a better girlfriend. So I guess I had faith and believe her to a degree, of giving her a chance.

 

I told my female friend about the situation (to get a woman friend's perspective). and she said that I shouldn't have talked to my friend about it, cause my friend has feelings for me (or that's at least what she thinks. I don't think so at all), and she says that I shouldn't have discussed it with her cause I exaggerated the whole situation, and I have on here, talking about it as well, she says. She says I made her look bad, by bending the truth of it all, and overblowing it.

 

I also got a call from her brother, and he told me that I am making too big of a deal on this whole prenup issue with her.

 

He says that I need to make a decision, if this relationship is about love or money. He also says that he doesn't want me to loose a great girl. And that I am a great guy and he doesn't want her to loose me as well.

 

He talks about his own relationship mistakes and says he doesn't want me to make mistakes and loose the love of my life. But I kind of feel that his love story situations in the past, are different than mine, and even though I understand the point he is trying to make, I think it might be and apples and oranges, comparison.

 

He says that I am too much about money, possibly cause of the baggage I have had in my past, and he says that the money I have, 200K, in the real world is s***, and I am not a millionaire, and I am making too much of it, instead of love.

[elaine567]

Some points to consider:

 

1) She freakin' vomited over the thought that you wanted a prenup.

 

2) She used children as a bargaining chip. Any woman who truly wanted children wouldn't dream of depriving themselves of such a gift over something like a prenup.

 

3) She said she was going to withhold sex from you. You aren't owed sex, but again, she's using a "commodity" to gain leverage. It doesn't matter if she didn't follow through. It still shows she would rather use threats and manipulation rather than effectively communicate and resolve issues like a functional adult.

 

4) Everything is somehow your fault. That's almost never the case in any relationship.

 

5) She's verbally combative. Telling you that you've got no balls? Dude, a girl says something anything in the realm of that to me and it's game over. Not because it's an indictment of my manhood, but because it means I'm with someone who wants to fight dirty. It's about how you argue; not that you argue. Character assassination = bye, bye.

 

6) She's almost 40 and has no money. But she thinks she knows best when it comes to a major financial decision?

 

7) She can't compromise. Even when you think she's about to, she flip-flops, like with the counseling thing.

 

8) Her ex, who she was in business with, is still on the scene and lends her money at times.

 

She has no money, because her ex cleaned her out when he left and took all the money out of the business they shared, and she pays for her father's medical bills, not solely because she is necessarily "bad" with money.

 

ON the one hand, I am concerned for the OP, as she may indeed be about to rip him off if he doesn't get a prenup signed, it may explain her desperate attempts to manipulate him into binning the pre nup. She is not some naive teenager, she should not be underestimated.

 

However, on the other hand I agree with the brother, Ironpony is all about the money to the point of "tightness", so perhaps he does need to loosen up if this marriage has any chance of survival.

He has pitched love against money and I am not sure many people would be entirely happy with that coming from the person they want to marry.

 

I am conflicted here.

[bathtub-row]

Great. If she doesn't want to lose you, then she should be more than happy to sign the pre-nup. As far as anyone telling that $200k isn't anything to get excited about, toss it their way and watch how excited they get. $200k is a significant amount of money and anyone who tells you otherwise has an agenda.

 

You need to drop this woman. If you can't, then at least insist that she sign the pre-nup. Tell her that those are your terms and if she can't do that, then the deal is off. All this back and forth discussion is completely ridiculous.

[ironpony]

You're right, I haven been ridiculous with all the back and forth discussion. I guess I have put a lot into what elaine567 has said, about me being too much about money, and thought maybe I have.

 

 

8) Her ex, who she was in business with, is still on the scene and lends her money at times.

 

She has no money, because her ex cleaned her out when he left and took all the money out of the business they shared, and she pays for her father's medical bills, not solely because she is necessarily "bad" with money.

 

ON the one hand, I am concerned for the OP, as she may indeed be about to rip him off if he doesn't get a prenup signed, it may explain her desperate attempts to manipulate him into binning the pre nup. She is not some naive teenager, she should not be underestimated.

 

However, on the other hand I agree with the brother, Ironpony is all about the money to the point of "tightness", so perhaps he does need to loosen up if this marriage has any chance of survival.

He has pitched love against money and I am not sure many people would be entirely happy with that coming from the person they want to marry.

 

I am conflicted here.

[Art_Critic]

So the money is premarital, just keep it that way and don't co-mingle your saved money into marital assets and all is good...

 

What did the attorney say about having protection for premarital property without a prenup in your state, that IMO is what should hinge whether or not a prenup is needed or not.

[BettyDraper]

Okay thanks. She keeps apologizing and says she wants to work things out, and get better as a person, and be a better girlfriend. So I guess I had faith and believe her to a degree, of giving her a chance.

 

I told my female friend about the situation (to get a woman friend's perspective). and she said that I shouldn't have talked to my friend about it, cause my friend has feelings for me (or that's at least what she thinks. I don't think so at all), and she says that I shouldn't have discussed it with her cause I exaggerated the whole situation, and I have on here, talking about it as well, she says. She says I made her look bad, by bending the truth of it all, and overblowing it.

 

I also got a call from her brother, and he told me that I am making too big of a deal on this whole prenup issue with her.

 

He says that I need to make a decision, if this relationship is about love or money. He also says that he doesn't want me to loose a great girl. And that I am a great guy and he doesn't want her to loose me as well.

 

He talks about his own relationship mistakes and says he doesn't want me to make mistakes and loose the love of my life. But I kind of feel that his love story situations in the past, are different than mine, and even though I understand the point he is trying to make, I think it might be and apples and oranges, comparison.

 

He says that I am too much about money, possibly cause of the baggage I have had in my past, and he says that the money I have, 200K, in the real world is s***, and I am not a millionaire, and I am making too much of it, instead of love.

 

Oh wow...so now your girlfriend getting her brother involved in her campaign badger you into marriage?! Yeah, that's really healthy and mature!

 

If 200K was a small amount of money, this family wouldn't be coming after you just because you're smart enough to protect your assets from them.

 

Leave the brother out of this situation. This is none of his business and he's biased against you anyway. Stop letting them influence your choice because they are all about securing a wallet for your girlfriend.

[bathtub-row]

You're right, I haven been ridiculous with all the back and forth discussion. I guess I have put a lot into what elaine567 has said, about me being too much about money, and thought maybe I have.

 

You're going to be more "about money" if she runs off with yours and you're left with nothing except feeling really bad about not insisting on a pre-nup. Hey, if $200k isn't that big of a deal to her, then what's the problem with signing it all over to you?

 

Look, I just sold my personal home and made a nice profit on it. Now do you think for one second that I'd marry someone and give them the opportunity to get their hands on my money? That wouldn't happen on my dumbest day. Not in a million years. You're nuts if you don't protect your money.

[ironpony]

My problem is I tend to be influenced from people I know and they react differently, than the people on here. The people I know, think I am being unromantic with my views on prenups or how she is with money.

Edited June 14, 2016 by ironpony

[ironpony]

So the money is premarital, just keep it that way and don't co-mingle your saved money into marital assets and all is good...

 

What did the attorney say about having protection for premarital property without a prenup in your state, that IMO is what should hinge whether or not a prenup is needed or not.

 

The attorney said that without a prenup, there is no absolute guarantee of protection. She said that premarital property will likely be considered yours by the judge, but not as absolutely, compared to a prenup.

[bathtub-row]

My problem is I tend to be influenced from people I know and they react differently, than the people on here. The people I know, think I am being unromantic with my views on prenups or how she is with money.

 

That's how people get screwed around -- by listening to others who have an agenda, and by not being decisive. Hate to say it, but your gf has already figured this out about you and she knows you can be manipulated.

 

You've heard the expression "don't gamble if you can't afford to lose"? Ask yourself if you can afford to lose $200k. This has nothing to do with being romantic or not. These arguments that are being used are designed to manipulate you.

 

Either you marry with a pre-nup or not. It really is that simple. For me, I wouldn't. The more your gf argues about this, the more suspicious you should be. Simply tell her to sign the pre-nup or end the relationship. Stop letting yourself be badgered in this way. It makes you look foolish.

[ironpony]

Okay thanks. It's just some of my own friends I have discussed it with are telling me I am being unromantic and even some people I have asked on here, so I don't see why they would say that, if they don't have an agenda along with her.

[GunslingerRoland]

I think I've said this already, but be wary of asking your peers for advice.

 

 

If they are your age, probably a lot of them aren't even married yet, probably most of them don't have anywhere near the net worth you do, and they surely haven't experienced personally the angst of getting divorced and losing half of everything.

[BettyDraper]

Okay thanks. It's just some of my own friends I have discussed it with are telling me I am being unromantic and even some people I have asked on here, so I don't see why they would say that, if they don't have an agenda along with her.

 

Who cares what your friends say? They aren't the ones with money to lose and a manipulative woman who has her eye on it. You seem aware that you allow yourself to be overly influenced by friends so why don't you take your own advice?

 

The vast majority of LS members have given you solid reasons why this woman is bad news. We outnumber your friends in that stance. I don't understand why you are asking for our advice if you're just going to keep repeating the same information and asking the same questions.

 

You have received opinions from friends, your predatory girlfriend and strangers online. Now it is time for YOU to make a choice and stick to it. Being wishy washy is not an attractive trait nor is it helpful to you in the long run. Remember that you asked for a prenup for a reason and you seem aware that your girlfriend is exhibiting some troubling characteristics.

 

You're an intelligent young man. Please use your brain instead of allowing people with no money and a greedy woman to lead you astray. Ask yourself how you would feel if you lost all of that money. Talk to men who lost assets in a divorce. I suggest you choose friends who are also great with finances. Those types can give you good advice rather than people with nothing who believe foolish purely romantic notions of marriage.

[Art_Critic]

What are you deciding to do ?

[CarrieT]

my own friends I have discussed it with are telling me I am being unromantic

Romance is:

• candlelight dinners
  
• walks on the beach
  
• a bouquet of flowers
  
• a surprise gift
  
• tender kisses on the back of the neck
  
• a whisper of love
  

 

A MARRIAGE - on the other hand - is a legal, formal contract.

 

You can be romantic and pragmatic about your situation. Not sure why your friends are so black-and-white about the whole romance thing.

[Mr. Lucky]

he says that the money I have, 200K, in the real world is s***, and I am not a millionaire, and I am making too much of it, instead of love.

 

So says someone with a net worth of $2,500 or so...

 

Mr. Lucky

[ironpony]

Who has a networth of $2500? Are you saying I do?

[BettyDraper]

Who has a networth of $2500? Are you saying I do?

 

I think Mr. Lucky was talking about your girlfriend's brother.

 

What have you decided to do about your situation?

[ironpony]

Oh, I don't know if her brother has 2500, or how much he has.

 

As for what to do, we have been talking it out a lot. She says that when I talk about it on here and two a couple of friends, that I exaggerated a lot of what she said, and made her sound worse than she was.

 

Basically a lot of her attitude towards me, after I went to see a lawyer behind her back, is a result of me lying to her and hiding the lawyer.

 

So everything after the lawyer in her attitude is because of my dishonesty about the situation she said, and that I have made her look bad to my friends. My friends do not think as highly of her as a result, and she said she can tell when she is around them.

 

Now she wants to me to tell my friends that it was because I lied to her about going behind her back since I left that part out. I returned her engagement ring and got a refund and did that behind her back as well, and she said that was a jerk move. She said that I should defend her more and have her back since I am her bf.

 

What do you think? Was returning the right behind her back without telling her till later a jerk move? I just needed a break so I delayed telling her for a few days, but was that bad of me, and perhaps I am responsible for her behavior towards me at that time?

Edited June 24, 2016 by ironpony

[blackcat777]

This woman won't stop manipulating you. She's manipulating you into feeling terrible when you try to make a sane decision concerning your mutual welfare for the rest of your lives.

 

She clearly doesn't want a sane result - I would sincerely question her motives if this kind of manipulation flares up every time you simply *discuss* having a prenup with others.

 

Why does she seem so frightened? If this marriage were about "love," she would be interested in "compromise" and "your happiness." I don't see anything motivated by love for you or building a future together by her actions. I see manipulation rooted in terror over not being able to sink her teeth into every last cent of your hard-earned money.

 

At this point, it's pretty clear she won't ever let you get a prenup to be with her. It's pretty ridiculous.

 

Don't sign one.

 

And also, don't marry her. This is red flag city and she's not stopping any time soon.

 

Do not accept any of the blame she tries to put on your shoulders when pushing for a rational discussion about what you have worked for in life.

 

Returning the ring was an assertion of your boundaries. Stick to it. Own it. Do NOT back down and do NOT let her make you feel bad. No one will stick up for you if you don't stick up for yourself.

 

She is an adult. she is responsible for her behavior 100% of the time. Anytime she tries to tell you you're responsible for her behavior... that's manipulation. Shut it down.

 

Nothing you did is the "cause" of her attitude, including going to a lawyer. SHE simply has an attitude. She is a conscious adult capable of conscious decisions and she consciously chooses to have an attitude with you when she doesn't get her way.

 

And by her way, I mean unlimited access to all of your funds with zero respect or regard for you. That's what she's saying.

 

It's not like you wouldn't share when you're married. It's like she specifically wants you to have no say. Think about that...

 

And any time you speak up, she tries to make you feel like the bad guy. Over and over...

[BettyDraper]

Oh, I don't know if her brother has 2500, or how much he has.

 

As for what to do, we have been talking it out a lot. She says that when I talk about it on here and two a couple of friends, that I exaggerated a lot of what she said, and made her sound worse than she was.

 

Basically a lot of her attitude towards me, after I went to see a lawyer behind her back, is a result of me lying to her and hiding the lawyer.

 

So everything after the lawyer in her attitude is because of my dishonesty about the situation she said, and that I have made her look bad to my friends. My friends do not think as highly of her as a result, and she said she can tell when she is around them.

 

Now she wants to me to tell my friends that it was because I lied to her about going behind her back since I left that part out. I returned her engagement ring and got a refund and did that behind her back as well, and she said that was a jerk move. She said that I should defend her more and have her back since I am her bf.

 

What do you think? Was returning the right behind her back without telling her till later a jerk move? I just needed a break so I delayed telling her for a few days, but was that bad of me, and perhaps I am responsible for her behavior towards me at that time?

 

No. It was great that you asserted your boundaries. Returning the ring was a step in the right direction. Nothing you share about your girlfriend's manipulation is going to make LS members tell you that you are wrong and she is right for being greedy.

 

Marry this woman only if you want to cater to her every wish for fear of losing all of your money. The advice from this forum is not going to change.

 

You remind me of a battered woman who is making excuses to stay with her abusive partner. That was not meant to be an insult but the constant rationalizations and codependence are very similar.

[ironpony]

Okay thanks for the advice.

 

Me and her talked some more. She is upset that I got negative opinions from my friends, about her and her attitude.

 

One friend of mine in particular... I have a friend who I met back in 2008. Back then we went on a couple of dates, but we didn't click and were not interested in each other that way.

 

A few months later, I ran into her at the movies, and we became friends... but just friends. She has had a long term boyfriend now and me, her, her boyfriend and my girlfriend hang out a lot together. We go on double dates and all that.

 

But since I asked my friend about the situation, since I wanted her opinion... she has given a negative one and my girlfriend read it in my text messages. It was pretty much the same opinions that were given to me on here.

 

My friend is not moved to a different city. Some of my other friends and family live in that city as well, and I was planning on going on a vacation there and seeing all of them. Including her.

 

But now my gf is saying she doesn't want me to go, and it will be disrespectful of me to go visit her, after what she thinks of my gf. She also feels that my friend has feelings for me, because we went out on a couple of dates eight years ago, but I don't see any feeling at all, and my gf I think is completely mistaken. Me and my guy friends just consider her to be one of the guys and that's it. She has her own bf and all too.

 

But she does not want me to see her now, and I she seriously has a problem with me going on this vacation now. Unless she comes she says, but I feel that if I brought her she would ruin it likely. But she says that me not bringing her, is not fair to her, especially since I am going to see a friend who not only has a negative opinion of her, but may have feelings for me, according to her.

 

What do you think? Is it inappropriate for me to go?