Is it wrong or 'jerk-ish' of me to ask my girlfriend for a pre-nup if we got married?

[carhill]

A dissolution is a divorce and those can be very, very expensive. In comparison, if she turns tail and doesn't return the ring, or you forfeit the ring, that's good, and inexpensive, information up front. As example, heh, exW of course kept her engagement and wedding rings and those cost about half of what my legal fees alone cost for a quite amicable divorce, and maybe 1-2% of the settlement. Nothing.

 

On the timing of the engagement versus prenup, go with what you think best. Nothing in life is perfect and everything we do has some risk involved.

[ironpony]

Well yeah the legal fees and prenup would cost more, but that's not what I mean. I mean if I propose first, then she backs out later, if I bring up the prenup, I would feel more heartbroken than before.

 

But would she be less likely to leave me, if I propose first, before bringing it up again? Or will it have a worse effect, and she will feel more cheated possibly, if I brought up the pre-nup against, after proposing?

Edited May 2, 2016 by ironpony

[carhill]

Go with what you feel. If you don't want the risk to your heart/psyche from an accepted engagement going south for reason of prenup, negotiate prior. IMO, there are sound arguments for either path. In the end, it's your engagement and relationship.

[whichwayisup]

No we don't.

 

But ever since she didn't like me wanting a pre-nup, I am on damage control now and have to make a decision. Either I tell her that she signs it, or I can't marry her, or I should propose to her first, which could give her re-assurance that I do want to marry her, and then bring up the pre-nup again later, if that's better.

 

I have to pick one of these two options or she will leave me possibly. Which is the better option to let her know that I love her, and for her to see things more positively?

 

You cannot propose, and then bring up the prenup later. If you do that, she'll end it with you and throw the ring in your face.

 

It comes down to this. Either you marry her and forget the prenup or you don't marry her at all. There's no in between and compromise here.

 

Fact is, you've already divorced her in your mind and your marriage hasn't a chance - THAT is what she's thinking and why she's upset/angry with you.

[whichwayisup]

When you say a forfeited engagement compared to disillunsioned along the road, which one is which, or which are you refferring to?

 

Are you saying that giving her the ring first, is better?

 

You, down on one knee "Will you marry me?"

Her, "Yes but no pre nup."

 

It won't be her saying yes and not mentioning the prenup at all. She is expecting you to ask her with NO prenup.

[ironpony]

But I haven't divorced her in my mind. How can I make her see that.

 

Plus I am on damage control now, so don't I have to do something to reassure her, and get her positive thinking back on track?

Edited May 2, 2016 by ironpony

[carhill]

She's not a math problem with a solution.

[whichwayisup]

But I haven't divorced her in my mind. How can I make her see that.

 

Plus I am on damage control now, so don't I have to do something to reassure her, and get her positive thinking back on track?

 

 

 

The only way she's going to feel reassured is NO prenup.

[bathtub-row]

What you're missing here is that she is giving you an ultimatum and this ultimatum has you spinning in circles. You seem to think that if you give her what she wants, she might be more willing to be reasonable about what you want. But I'm pretty certain that anyone who thinks and operates as she does, isn't someone who can be reasoned with. Since you seem extremely insistent on marry this child, then you need to accept the consequences -- namely that she thinks and acts like a spoiled child, she doesn't understand the meaning of compromise, and she's irrational. If you propose to her first and then bring up the pre-nup, she's going to feel tricked, and she's going to use the engagement as leverage against you.

 

You'll find this is true in every relationship in your life -- if you compromise on your principles, you will lose that person's respect, and you'll lose respect for yourself.

 

So either do what she wants or walk away. It really is that simple. You're trying to create a compromise, but this self-centered brat you're in love with does not want that. The sooner you recognize that, the better. Personally, I think the smartest move you could make is to bring it up to her again. If she still refuses to sign a pre-nup, then tell her that you're sorry but you can't marry someone under those circumstances. Either she will come to respect you, or she'll run away bawling. Either way, I think you're wrong to give in. It's a bad start to your relationship because she has created a lopsided solution. This does not bode well for your future together.

[elaine567]

I am no lawyer, but the problem here that I see, is that as a woman with nothing, she can only lose from a pre-nup.

There is no gain here for her, she has no assets to protect, no nest egg, no business.

In the event of a divorce, she would probably be better off divorcing under State law and getting the usual 50% than tying herself to a pre-nup that exists almost solely to protect the OP.

[ironpony]

Okay thanks for the input people. I will tell her that I would like her to sign one, and I cannot marry her until she does.

 

We will see if she leaves me or chooses to stay. I have a feeling she might act like how she did before and act like she is willing to do it, but then say she doesn't want to bring children into the marriage as a result.

 

Or maybe she will accept the condition and choose to keep me, if she loves me and doesn't want to lose me, like she says she does.

 

I guess it's also hard for me to accept cause the relationship is really great, other than this one problem that came up. I feel like maybe I am being too picky, constantly waiting for ms. perfect, when their is no ms. perfect.

 

Heck, people I know marry spouses with flaws too, so I feel like I may be being too picky, when one loves someone. I feel that it's strange how I get women that are more flawed, compared to other's success, and felt that maybe I was being too picky over the years.

 

As for the pre-nup, I would want one to protect her as well of course. But if a person can divorce under state law, then what good is a prenup then?

Edited May 2, 2016 by ironpony

[elaine567]

But if a person can divorce under state law, then what good is a prenup then?

 

A pre-nup overrides State law.

[ironpony]

Oh yes, I see, I misunderstood. Well some say, that I am being selfish, for wanting to keep a large portion of my money in the pre-nup, some say I am not.

 

So because of this, I am not sure if I am being fair or not.

 

I think what I will tell her is, is that I think we should speak to a lawyer about a pre-nup, but also get some pre-marital counseling, since she does not have a lot of money, compared to me. Or at least this is what someone said I should do.

 

What do you think?

[d0nnivain]

As for the pre-nup, I would want one to protect her as well of course. But if a person can divorce under state law, then what good is a prenup then?

A pre nup does not prevent a divorce. All it does is reduce the fighting in the event of a divorce because the parties already agreed to certain financial splits. It has no impact on custody. You can't agree in advance about what's in the best interests of the kids. Plus if financial circumstances change, the best interests of the kids can impact the enforceable of the prenup.

 

You are looking for guarantees. They don't exist. The best you can do is guard against the downside.

 

You are also unwilling to compromise. You have to be willing to take the leap of faith -- to risk getting your heart broken & losing the cost of the diamond engagement ring if you propose & she later says no to the prenup causing you to end the engagement. As carhill pointed out, losing the e-ring is still cheaper then losing 1/2 a house.

 

By proposing 1st you are showing the romantic side. If you have a proposed draft of the prenup when you bring up the discussion again -- either before or after the proposal -- you can show her in writing how it benefits her & that you are not trying to shaft her.

[AMJ]

Oh yes, I see, I misunderstood. Well some say, that I am being selfish, for wanting to keep a large portion of my money in the pre-nup, some say I am not.

 

So because of this, I am not sure if I am being fair or not.

 

I think what I will tell her is, is that I think we should speak to a lawyer about a pre-nup, but also get some pre-marital counseling, since she does not have a lot of money, compared to me. Or at least this is what someone said I should do.

 

What do you think?

 

I'd never sign a prenup simply because it means one person is already planning to end the marriage. Why get married in the first place if you're already planning for it to end? You definitely need some counseling. It sounds like you're getting married for the wrong reasons. Don't settle for someone you don't want to spend the rest of your life with.

[ironpony]

Oh okay, well I was told that if I give her the ring now, and then bring up later, she will react more harshly, cause she will have felt tricked.

 

I am willing to compromise and give her a ring now, if that's better, but will she likely react harsher later, if this is the case?

[Woggle]

I'd never sign a prenup simply because it means one person is already planning to end the marriage. Why get married in the first place if you're already planning for it to end? You definitely need some counseling. It sounds like you're getting married for the wrong reasons. Don't settle for someone you don't want to spend the rest of your life with.

 

You might not want it to end but it can happen. You don't to get into a car accident but many people still buy insurance. You don't want your house to get robbed but most people still lock their doors. With marriage we are talking about something that has a 50% failure rate so it is smart to take precautions in case it ends.

[d0nnivain]

I'd never sign a prenup simply because it means one person is already planning to end the marriage. Why get married in the first place if you're already planning for it to end? You definitely need some counseling. It sounds like you're getting married for the wrong reasons. Don't settle for someone you don't want to spend the rest of your life with.

 

DH & I have a prenup. I came into the marriage with substantially more assets then him.

 

I have said two things over & over again:

 

1. Marriage is about love but divorce is about money. It was so much easier to put together this agreement while we are in love & wanted things to work. the anger that permeates most divorces makes compromise very difficult.

 

2. Going through the exercise of laying all our cards on the table, where all the money is, having the very tough conversations and figuring out what to do if things went wrong was THE BEST THING we could have done. It forced us to really lay ourselves bare to the other. It brought us closer as we struggled with where & how to draw some of the lines. For example I have more cash on hand but he had health insurance & began contributing to a pension so it was a real now vs later debate.

 

It really doesn't have to an exit strategy. To me it was a way to guard against needing to divorce because before we married we learned how to communicate & compromise over a very difficult subject. The process increased our trust in one other and made it easier for us to have difficult conversations as we live & love in our marriage.

[AMJ]

You might not want it to end but it can happen. You don't to get into a car accident but many people still buy insurance. You don't want your house to get robbed but most people still lock their doors. With marriage we are talking about something that has a 50% failure rate so it is smart to take precautions in case it ends.

 

Well aware of all of that. It's extremely depressing in my opinion that the best example we can come up with is comparing a marriage ending to a car accident.

It's my personal belief- and probably the belief of people who are against pre-nups- that the difference between a car accident and a divorce is that one you have no control over. In other words, people can prevent a marriage from ending. It takes two people to enter a marriage and two to end one. It's not easy to keep a marriage together. People say getting a divorce is difficult but clearly not that difficult since it happens as you point out, 50% of the time. For me, I'd never enter into a marriage with a person who wasn't completely sure, at the time we entered into a marriage, that they wanted to spend the rest of their life with me. I just think you're doomed from the start if you do it any other way.

 

So for me it's not about the money but about the significance of buying insurance for your marriage.

[d0nnivain]

Oh okay, well I was told that if I give her the ring now, and then bring up later, she will react more harshly, cause she will have felt tricked.

 

I am willing to compromise and give her a ring now, if that's better, but will she likely react harsher later, if this is the case?

 

You know her. We don't.

 

As carhill pointed out, you have to do what is best for your relationship.

 

Because she is bad with money & has already given you an ultimatum, you may be right that she will feel tricked but her feeling that way does not mean you are tricking her. It means she is reacting badly.

 

Perhaps this is the hill on which your relationship will die. From what you have posted she does not strike me as someone who will respond to logic.

 

Again, you know her best.

[elaine567]

Oh okay, well I was told that if I give her the ring now, and then bring up later, she will react more harshly, cause she will have felt tricked.

 

I am willing to compromise and give her a ring now, if that's better, but will she likely react harsher later, if this is the case?

 

YOU cannot sweep this under the carpet now.

The subject of the prenup has come up, she has even given you an ultimatum about it - it will be the first thing she asks about, ring or no ring. She will need an answer from you to the question, "Do you want a prenup or not?

You cannot get out of this, you either try to persuade her that you need the pre-nup and you will not marry her without one, or you give up on the idea of the pre-nup all together.

[BlueIris]

YOU cannot sweep this under the carpet now.

The subject of the prenup has come up, she has even given you an ultimatum about it - it will be the first thing she asks about, ring or no ring. She will need an answer from you to the question, "Do you want a prenup or not?

You cannot get out of this, you either try to persuade her that you need the pre-nup and you will not marry her without one, or you give up on the idea of the pre-nup all together.

 

Yes, I can’t see how you can avoid that.

 

You could talk to a lawyer, find out what a prenup in your state can cover and what it can’t, so that you have something concrete to talk to her about. Then you’ll actually know what is at issue.

 

I understand that you don’t want to have a “bidding war” as you put it, but a prenup is a negotiated agreement- unless you make it a take-it-or-leave-it proposition on your terms only, which is an ultimatum too. Then you’re at stalemate with neither of you willing to negotiate.

 

Talk to a lawyer. Get the information you need. Then talk with your GF.

[DesertHeat]

Pump the brakes on the marriage until you get this resolved.

 

I'm divorced now, but before I was married, I was part of the "no prenup" crowd. TBH, most unmarried and/or undivorced women in my crowd didn't believe in prenups and I think that's true for most people. They don't see the point and believe that marriage is "until death". However, we all know what happens to 50% of marriages in the USA...

 

If I ever get married again, I will definitely have a prenup. I want to not only protect my assets, but my children from my previous marriage. I was pretty scarred by my marriage and divorce. I went into it thinking we were going to be "together forever" and he turned out to be a serial cheater and abuser. I left with literally the clothes on my back. We didn't have much "assets", but he did clean out my personal bank accounts and steal all my jewelry that I acquired before marriage. The police would do nothing because we weren't divorced, and when I divorced, the court didn't really care about the dissipation of assets (we were in a No Fault 50/50 state).

 

Think about what you want to do with your money, long term. Are you going to buy a house with that money after you guys marry? A prenup may not matter in that case because the house may become a marital asset. Are you holding onto the money for a rainy day? Then you might need one.

 

If you are serious about getting a prenup, then visit a lawyer and see what terms would apply to your situation. Present these terms to your GF. She might automatically think "no prenup" but may soften her stance with some concrete terms regarding the prenup.

 

If she chooses not to want to marry you, then cut and run, I say. Protect yourself because no one expects divorce when they get married, but when it happens, it's a nasty and cutthroat thing.

[bathtub-row]

I'm finding it hard to believe that you have no other issues other than this pre-nup issue. Her behavior about this is very childish and it's difficult to believe that she has never acted this way before under any other circumstances. And her unwillingness to work out a compromise tells of another bad trait. But if you say this is something that never happens, then fine. Do what it takes to stay with her.

 

I think two people on this forum have made excellent points -- a pre-nup is a form of insurance, and it's easier to make a contract like this when you love one another.

[ironpony]

Oh, well when I said that the prenup issue was our only issue, I meant her behavior in the prenup issue included, as well.

 

I guess I just feel like a hypocrite, cause if I tell her I will not get married unless I have a prenup, does that not mean that I am giving her an ultimatum as well, as her giving me one?

 

I feel like I gave the first one, before she gave hers.