Particpant to Cheating, What constitutes responsibility?

[Sub]

Another person should not be held liable for someone else's promises/pledges/vows.

 

I don't think that claims being made. The smallest minority of people/BS's view the WS as some sort of victim to a predator-like OW/OM. We're all adults making adult decisions. Just because people hold AP's responsible for their own part in the scenario doesn't mean they're absolving their WS in any way. And I disagree with the "if someone wants to cheat, they're going to" reasoning as a means of zeroing out an OW/OM's specific impact. Plenty of evidence to the contrary on that one, on these boards and most likely in everyone's personal experiences.

[Methodical]

My mother cheated and I won't get too detailed about specifics for the sake of anonymity, but...the timing of her choice to cheat, how she did it, and with whom she did it with was unbelievable, especially given her "religious beliefs."

 

Bottomline, it was HER choice to cheat and the man she did it with was a willing participant. She pursued the affair, not him. She broke her marriage vows, not him. I can't stand the man, but I don't hold him accountable for HER actions. So yes, I agree that the WS is accountable, and although my mother's AP knew the situation up close and personal, he didn't cause her to do anything. She did it of her own accord and I don't hold him accountable, and that is not an easy thing to say.

[Rejected Rosebud]

It sounds like you didn't even read my post. Either that or you're just being willfully obtuse. :-/

Really? I think you have a lack of understanding about what is required for an analogy to be used properly, since you felt the need to "school" us on how we should have received that stellar example of a spurious one.

 

If a person makes a poor analogy in order to put forth an argument, of course it is going to come under fire from those who dispute its validity. Those of us who feel like defending our own position in a discussion are correct to dismantle weak argument. That's not "obfuscation" .

 

If that poster wants to defend what they posted, they can. We'd want to know how a sports team is analogous to a marriage, how falling in love and choosing to marry is akin to choosing a goalie for a high school sports team, how marriage vows are related to holding a position on a seasonal high school sports team, etc. Evidently that's not happening. It's funny for you to come on here in the self appointed role of "fact cop" when 1) no facts are involved, it's a discussion of opinions, and 2) you don't understand the use of analogies. Or the definition of "obfuscation," for that matter.

[William]

In order to prevent members from becoming past members and the object of future analogies to hydras, let's consider all postings on LoveShack.org to be personal opinions by laypeople navigating the waters of interpersonal relationships and, in this case, constituting responsibility for participating in cheating. In addition, while perhaps fun and interesting meta-discussions, let's limit the use of analogies and adhere to the gist of the topic. Thanks!

[velvette]

Fine. In the case of those who attended those Protestant weddings and stood to join in the vow, that handful of people are bound by proxy. The larger society, which did not participate in that ceremony cannot be held bound by those vows since their agreement was never sought, nor did they nominate the people there to act on their behalf.

 

Sorry I don't agree. You like to dwell in technicalities, so in that respect you are correct, but the reality is that anyone of the Protestant faith adheres to the same concepts whether or not they were at the same ceremony uttering the same vows. Not that being human they all live up to their responsibility to support marriages within their community, but that's a different topic.

 

Same with other religions imo whether or not they express it via vows at a wedding ceremony. This concept is prevalent in most faiths.

 

 

And, as Always Growing pointed out it is also prevalent in most societies.

 

 

Hence why we have terms ranging from meddling mother-in-laws to home wreckers for people who interfere in other peoples marriages whether or not they are invited by one spouse in the marriage.

[velvette]

How would you know how "they" might react? I thought one of the constant refrains from BS here was that there is no way of predicting how one might respond to infidelity - many BS have claimed they always thought they'd respond one way and found themselves responding quite another way.

 

I already gave an example of my H OW going nuts when I talked to her H.

 

 

She truly was like a rabid dog. Cant imagine if I had agreed to meet with him to compare notes as he wanted, or met with him and flirted/seduced/slept with him as probably would have been easy since he was also a cheater.

 

 

Don't think that's an unusual reaction.

 

 

Additionally, as an executive in a large corporation, I've seen this many times in cases of cheating in the workplace gone wrong. Actually, cheaters and their accomplices are among the most morally indignant when they feel wronged, probably because of their elevated sense of entitlement.

 

 

The human reaction to betrayal is fairly universal.

[cocorico]

I already gave an example of my H OW going nuts when I talked to her H.

 

This, while possibly amusing as an outlier (unless you're claiming most / all OWs are "rabid dogs"? ) has nothing at all to do with the point under discussion... which was how the OW might respond if they were to be cheated on themself. Not, if some BS chose to speak to their BS (assuming they had one, which would make them MOW and not OW to,start with...) so, sorry, not relevant.

 

It also doesn't address the experiences of the countless BS who have posted on these boards saying they imagined they would response XYZ if they were ever betrayed (usually "kick the scum to the curb") only to find that, when it did happen to them, they reacted quite differently.

 

Nor does it address the experiences of the countless OWs who have also been BWs, who did not react like "rabid dogs" when they were BS - but held the WS accountable rather than going after the OW.

 

But I guess if you want to demonise a whole group of people on the basis of one extreme case, then I could claim with equal validity to the post I quote in this post that all BS must be sad psychos who stalk, harass, vandalise and steal from their xWS and his fOW, since that is what happens in our case. (Fortunately, I know plenty of other BS IRL who are not like this.)

[Sub]

My mother cheated and I won't get too detailed about specifics for the sake of anonymity, but...the timing of her choice to cheat, how she did it, and with whom she did it with was unbelievable, especially given her "religious beliefs."

 

Bottomline, it was HER choice to cheat and the man she did it with was a willing participant. She pursued the affair, not him. She broke her marriage vows, not him. I can't stand the man, but I don't hold him accountable for HER actions. So yes, I agree that the WS is accountable, and although my mother's AP knew the situation up close and personal, he didn't cause her to do anything. She did it of her own accord and I don't hold him accountable, and that is not an easy thing to say.

 

I see all your points. I think, again, that it's not about holding an OW/OM responsible for the WS's actions. If I might ask: do you think your Mother's A would have happened with someone else?

[Liam1]

This thread assumes that the BS is always innocent and has no responsibility for the failure of the marriage. Not always so

Take my co-worker, marriage coming up on 20 years, two teenage sons. The husband had reduced her role in the marriage to that of a nanny to the boys. They never did anything together. Not even Christmas shopping for the boys. Quite simply he was too involved with golf. Weekends were for golf. He would often fly out on Friday night and not return until late Sunday night.

Sex was once or twice a week for him to get his jollies and nothing more. As I said in my last post he opened the door for me.

As for tying me to a chair for 20 minutes.

He would never have golfed again

 

Good point:

 

A lot of BS's were abusive to their spouse. Some to the extreme. If a BS is unhappy with a spouse to the point that they abandon and abuse them, They can seek a divorce rather than detaining and emotionally and sometimes physically torturing their spouse.

 

A lot of women, too, are trapped financially, so divorce is not an easy option.

 

If the marriage is good in most respects accept for a few glitches the BS can fix those glitches or deal with the consequences. Those consequences may be that the WS seeks the respect all humans deserve through an affair partner.

 

A marriage contract is not a license to abuse and physically or emotionally neglect a spouse.

 

If a BS abuses and neglects their spouse, and then thinks they can control their spouse by claiming high moral ground because they are simply being abusive rather than having an affair, that changes nothing morally or ethically.

 

Morally or ethically abandoning, verbally belittling and neglecting a spouse is abuse.

 

Abuse is morally and ethically wrong. So if the emotionally neglected or abused spouse has an affair in reaction to the abuse, NEITHER holds high moral ground. Not the faithful spouse or the Wayward spouse. Both did something to destroy the marriage bond.

 

Also people are spouting religious wedding vows. Not everyone is of the same religion.

 

Also, neglecting, physically abandoning, verbally abusing a spouse is quite simply breaking the vow of honoring and cherishing that spouse.

 

If a marriage is a contract, the spouse who has been neglecting the spouse who has an affair, or who has become slovenly or withholding affection, or not pulling their weight. That spouse broke the contract first.

 

After breaking the contract, they then can NOT hold the high moral ground when the spouse reacts with an affair.

 

It's hypocritical, and just highlights the fact that many BS's refuse to admit that they had a part in the breakdown of the marriage.

 

And then, they wonder why their spouse had an affair. It's obvious to all but a blind man, yet SOME BS can not see their part. Then they wonder why the reconciliation fails.

 

I still maintain that there are far worse things in a marriage than an affair.

 

At least an affair can be worked through and the family can remain intact.

 

Also, if so many BS's feel that their unfaithful spouse is a lowlife, why in heaven's name would they stay married to someone they feel that way about?

 

It's hypocritical, IMO, to say married to someone you know longer respect. It's living a lie and that lie is just as bad as any affair lie, IMO.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Liam1

[Methodical]

I see all your points. I think, again, that it's not about holding an OW/OM responsible for the WS's actions. If I might ask: do you think your Mother's A would have happened with someone else?

 

In short, absolutely. I know facts that would blow your mind. I won't share for obvious reasons, so you'll have to take my word (and opinion) on that. HER actions caused repercussions that reached far beyond what outsiders could possibly see, as I'm sure is the case with most, if not all, ppl that have ever been betrayed.

 

I know there are various opinions on this subject. Because our opinions differ doesn't make me think less of you or that you are talking out your rear with no personal experience; therefore, your opinion is invalid or doesn't hold merit. Unfortunately, some ppl can not extend the same respect when others' opinions differ from their own.

 

Thanks for looking at my points and considering my perspective on this subject .

[Arieswoman]

Liam # 235

 

At least an affair can be worked through and the family can remain intact.

 

And your experience of this is ........??????

[Liam1]

As I said in my last post he opened the door for me.

As for tying me to a chair for 20 minutes.

He would never have golfed again

 

Also, I think most BS's would be better served by tying themselves to a chair in a Marriage Counselors office and NOT leaving until they listen to and hear what the psychologist has to say about the responsibilities of BOTH spouses in a marriage and NOT wasting energy focusing on the outside parties once the affair is ended.

 

The focus needs to be on the marriage and the people in it. Not outsiders.

 

My wife, never blamed the FOW. Even though she got really sticky after the affair was ended and still won't let go.

 

My wife listened to our counselor and has acknowledged her part in the marital break down.

 

My wife has empathy for the FOW, because obviously she is financially trapped in her unhappy marriage.

[Furious]

Just read a thread where an individual had sex with another, knowing the other had a BF and attempted to claim that he had no responsibility as "he" wasn't the one cheating.

 

My question is: Where is society today if we all take this same approach of complete self interest? Is this truly where our society is, that one can knowlingly participate in a cheating interaction and truly feel that they have no fault or ownership in any wrong doing?

 

Maybe I am just shocked or maybe I just don't want to believe that our society is as morally void of ethics as this might indicate. Very sad if this is where we are.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

 

 

The differing views on the concept of ethics in regard to participating in cheating is illuminating. The wide range of interpretation as to the complexity and variance in either for or against personal responsibility and ethics appears to be a fruitless exercise in convincing opposing views to alter.

 

At the end of the day, personal responsibility is just that, it's internal, it's a combination of nature and nurture, life experiences, a room with a view from one's personal history and how it moulds ones interpretation of ethics.

 

It's ok to agree to disagree on ethical opinions. I'd rather live in a world where people can differ than in a world that silences differences. There are parts of the world that stone people for being human, there are parts of the world that repress personal freedom without debate.

 

I do hope that kindness, respect, and integrity prevails because i do believe it's a good thing for humanity.

[Sub]

 

Thanks for looking at my points and considering my perspective on this subject .

 

Sure. I think we all speak from our personal experiences on the matter and tend to project. I think we can agree that it's not a black and white issue, a ton of grey area. I just hope it's clear that I'm not painting OW/OM as some sort of puppeteers, or responsible for the M itself.

[dreamingoftigers]

I see all your points. I think, again, that it's not about holding an OW/OM responsible for the WS's actions. If I might ask: do you think your Mother's A would have happened with someone else?

 

In my father's case I DO hold his mistress partially responsible. My father and her started their affair in my parent's home. My mother was downstairs providing care for my brother who is brain-injured and required 24 hour care. Within four months she was asking him to buy her a car and pushing for a ring. I believe he would have bought her just about anything, but not left my mother as he is such a needy arsehole. They are both disgusting people.

 

I believe my father would have cheated otherwise, but only with a type of person that targeted specifically superficial parts of his ego. He is a narcissist. And am abuser who think the Sun shines out his arse. WHO it was wouldn't have been important. Even how they treated his family wouldn't have mattered. But any chick who purred that "he's so rich, he's their hero and he can do whatever with them" would be banged accordingly.

 

Yes, this is my father and I suspect he is cheating again, because it's a weekday.

[Rejected Rosebud]

Good point:

 

A lot of BS's were abusive to their spouse. Some to the extreme. If a BS is unhappy with a spouse to the point that they abandon and abuse them, They can seek a divorce rather than detaining and emotionally and sometimes physically torturing their spouse.

 

A lot of women, too, are trapped financially, so divorce is not an easy option.

 

An abused person is still responsible for themselves. They are participating by remaining in the marriage. If they are suffering from "battered spouse syndrome," I understand that getting out may be beyond their abilities by that point. They need help. Not an affair.

 

An "easy option" is not the answer to very many of life's serious problems.

 

I totally understand how affairs happen. I was unfaithful myself and I have a very clear picture of the circumstances that lead me to choosing to do it. In many cases, a person is weakened by lacks in their own relationship. That has no bearing on justifying cheating - just like having a difficulty learning math doesn't justify cheating on your schoolwork. Or poverty doesn't justify stealing.

 

How this isn't completely clear, I just can't grasp. We all do wrong things, and many of us can understand how we came to do them. Hopefully most of us don't figure out ways to justify them.

[kgcolonel]

Good Morning Everyone....I have seen so many very interesting and challenging perspectives here as always. My initial intent on this thread was to better understand the ownership of responsibility to the OM / OW entering into or considering entering into the A. In no way was there a desire to advocate responsibility on the MW or MM or Committed M/W as in my mind, there should be no question as to their ownership. My concern was "where is society today" regarding the idea that "It is okay, morally and ethically to harm someone else by engaging in an affair knowing the partner is in a committed relationship on any ground".

 

I may get blasted here for my own perspective but I see so many sad self justified excuses that are "to hell with the other M/W, I'm out to satisfy myself". Personally, I fully hold the MM / MW responsible as if your going to engage outside your R, then end it and move on but that does not releive the OW / OM from responsibility either. Both are to blame here and independently so as not to allow one to blame shift to the other. Maintain your own integrity....just me but I can't understand cheating or engaging a MM / MW who is in a committed R.

[wmacbride]

Good Morning Everyone....I have seen so many very interesting and challenging perspectives here as always. My initial intent on this thread was to better understand the ownership of responsibility to the OM / OW entering into or considering entering into the A. In no way was there a desire to advocate responsibility on the MW or MM or Committed M/W as in my mind, there should be no question as to their ownership. My concern was "where is society today" regarding the idea that "It is okay, morally and ethically to harm someone else by engaging in an affair knowing the partner is in a committed relationship on any ground".

 

I may get blasted here for my own perspective but I see so many sad self justified excuses that are "to hell with the other M/W, I'm out to satisfy myself". Personally, I fully hold the MM / MW responsible as if your going to engage outside your R, then end it and move on but that does not releive the OW / OM from responsibility either. Both are to blame here and independently so as not to allow one to blame shift to the other. Maintain your own integrity....just me but I can't understand cheating or engaging a MM / MW who is in a committed R.

 

Perfectly worded.

[wmacbride]

Also, I think most BS's would be better served by tying themselves to a chair in a Marriage Counselors office and NOT leaving until they listen to and hear what the psychologist has to say about the responsibilities of BOTH spouses in a marriage and NOT wasting energy focusing on the outside parties once the affair is ended.

 

The focus needs to be on the marriage and the people in it. Not outsiders.

 

My wife, never blamed the FOW. Even though she got really sticky after the affair was ended and still won't let go.

 

My wife listened to our counselor and has acknowledged her part in the marital break down.

 

My wife has empathy for the FOW, because obviously she is financially trapped in her unhappy marriage.

 

 

- I find it interesting that you like say things like how the bs needs to listen to how both parties are responsible in a marriage, yet you continuously say how the bs in the one who is responsible for an A because he or she was abusive, denied sex or in some other way forced them into it.

 

If the bs is responsible for the state of the M, then surely the ws is as well? The strawman of "abuse" is just that, a strawman. An awful lot of A happen in marriages where there was no abuse, and the state of the marriage was the result fo the actions of BOTH the ws and bs.

- in your case, you have made many comments about how the ow has hurt your w by harassing her. That is on YOU and the ow, and no one else. It's on your because you invited her in without caring what the fallout would be, and it's on the ow because she got involved with a mm