Particpant to Cheating, What constitutes responsibility?

[velvette]

I read the initial post and stated my opinion. As the thread has continued, other posters, such as yourself, included information about the OM/OW's malicious actions. My question, "Why isn't the reverse accountability concerning who's responsible for holding marriage vows sacred?" which was spawned from your response, does correlates to the OP's question. Yes, I quoted your post as a reference point so that my question would be read in proper context.

 

 

I cant answer your question, because I don't understand it? No one has said that the WS isn't accountable for upholding his/her M vows. That's a given.

 

 

Where did you get the idea that BS are not holding their WS accountable for cheating?

 

 

I went back to look at your first post, and I doubt we will agree on much because unlike you I do think that we all have a vested interest in healthy marriages. Much like we all have a vested interest in children being educated whether or not they are our own.

 

 

This is not a novel concept. One of the main points of wedding ceremonies is that people are standing up in front of friends, family and community. I cant speak to all religions, but at least in the Protestant religion there is an actual part of the ceremony where the congregation is asked to vow to support the marriage. Surely, that does not include having an affair with someone married.

[Methodical]

Cheating is a deceitful action, imo. Ppl who do it are willingly deceiving their spouse/SO. The married person is the one who made a vow to be monogamous unless otherwise stated or agreed upon, such as in open marriages.

 

My contention isn't that the OM/OW is innocent, but that they do not have a vested interest in the marriage, otherwise, they wouldn't be a willing participant to the deceit. Their interest lies within their own desires and they don't concern themselves with collateral damage.

[velvette]

I don't hate the ow in my situation. I hate how, even years after their maybe month long A happened, I was still dealing with harassment from her. It wasn't because she had any great love for my ws or that he had made any promises to her- even she said that- it was because she has issues in her mind and sees everything as a competition. In her mind, he lost, and she couldn't stand that.

 

I hold her 100% accountable for the choices she made about how to conduct herself.

 

As you should.

 

 

Fortunately, we did not have to go that far to convince OW we would if her harassment didn't stop.

 

 

But, I feel quite sure, if we had the person being arrested or charged and held accountable would have been OW.

[velvette]

It is how it works, and I guess why so many reconciling BSs are not happy years down the line.

 

It is extremely hard to "hate" a person for their actions and then have to play the loving wife/husband at the same time.

It is, I guess why hating the OW/OM enough for two is often the norm, but the niggling realisation that it actually takes two to tango must be a very difficult fact to shake off and ignore.

I think accepting some of the blame can help here. "He/she did it because I pushed them to cheat on me, they are not solely to blame, so I am allowed to love them... "

 

Yikes. That's some pretty convoluted thinking. Not at all how it worked for me. Did you actually have that experience as a BS?

 

 

I think anyone who has ever been married or even in a relationship has had the experience of hating, intensely disliking or being angry with their spouse/partner while at the same time loving them sometimes over behavior far less egregious than cheating.

[2.50 a gallon]

Sub

Yes the H's were my Ex's co-workers who basically stuck their noses into my marriage. There was nothing I could do or way that one of them could not find away to turn it around and make me look bad.

I told them to back off and leave us alone. But they persisted, I caught her cheating, dumped her and then went after their wives.

I placed all of the responsibility at their feet.

[AlwaysGrowing]

I read the initial post and stated my opinion. As the thread has continued, other posters, such as yourself, included information about the OM/OW's malicious actions. My question, "Why isn't the reverse accountability concerning who's responsible for holding marriage vows sacred?" which was spawned from your response, does correlates to the OP's question. Yes, I quoted your post as a reference point so that my question would be read in proper context.

 

Accountability for the vows.....(besides a couple of recent posters stories who have managed to put that accountability on their BS)......the vast majority of X/WS have/are taking accountability. Their BS have held them accountable.

 

 

Being that society has a system to make marriage legal and recognized....society as a whole has made a moral judgement on those that interfere. Even if "invited".

 

 

I absolutely agree with you that there are AP that feel no vested interest in the well being of others. Never have....never will.

 

I do believe that the vast majority of AP fall into the "do unto others" category and lost a part of themselves during the affair. Recognizing the difference between legal-moral-ethical actions brings them back from only viewing the affair in one light (is it legal to have sex with a married person). When one views the affair under all three.....they accept their role in responsibility and accountability. That is not to say that they are wholly accountable to the BS. I feel that the greater responsibility and accountability is owed to themselves. That is the relationship that they hurt the most.....they went against their own morals/ethics/view of themselves as a "good person".

 

We read from many FAP here that have gone through just that.....those are the voices that discourage others from throwing away "self" so easily.

 

As far as the "judge, jury, executioner" comment....everyone judges people/actions/events all day everyday....it is how we make decisions. It is how we make ourselves safe. Being that our decisions/choices/actions come from within....we are the sole jury member. Each of us gets to decide which acts/events/persons/ideas....etc needs to be "executed" from our life....to the degree that we reasonably can.

[2.50 a gallon]

As for the other married women that I had relations with, it was the husbands who left the door wide open, and their wives who invited me in.

Again I never once thought of what they might think.

[jen1447]

We know what she was "actually saying." We don't need an interpretation.

 

What she "offered for consideration" was a logical fallacy in itself, known as a weak analogy.

 

Tryouts for rugby really are not remotely analogous to purposefully setting out to have emotional and sexual involvement with a married person. A sports team is in no way analogous to a marriage in any of its aspects, and winning a spot on a sports team is in no way analogous to falling in love and marrying somebody.

 

But, since that poster chose to use this spurious similarity, they get to observe it being dismantled.

 

It sounds like you didn't even read my post. Either that or you're just being willfully obtuse. :-/

[AlwaysGrowing]

Sub

Yes the H's were my Ex's co-workers who basically stuck their noses into my marriage. There was nothing I could do or way that one of them could not find away to turn it around and make me look bad.

I told them to back off and leave us alone. But they persisted, I caught her cheating, dumped her and then went after their wives.

I placed all of the responsibility at their feet.

 

 

Wow....this story is a first for me.

 

That looks like a lot of collateral damage.

 

I do have empathy for the loss of innocence in your marriage.....more empathy for the loss of innocence within yourself.

 

Were you able to recapture that within yourself?

[Azrael]

I look at at it like this, others aren't blamed for the affair itself and breaking of the vows. But, I don't see the problem with calling them out on their unethical behavior to get involved with someone else's spouse that is wrong.

 

And this is coming from a person who was an om before. I won't be making that mistake again.

 

Also, cheating due to unhappiness can be a cop out statement sometimes because people can just make up some bs sometimes. I have a friend that got cheated on and her initial reason was because he criticized the food she made (mind you he was just joking at the time). She never brought it up until after he got betrayed lmao.

[Sub]

So you would just stand there and do nothing like a gimp and watch that person be an a**hole and break things and say to the host, "Hey that's on them, not me"? I highly doubt it. You would help usher that person out the door, wouldn't you? You wouldn't stay and try to wreak some kind of confession out of the a**hole in front of all the other party guests. And endlessly dwellllllllllll on it afterwards... seeking out other a**holes in the world to try to get them to be accountable to you. That would just be a huge waste of your valuable time and energy. No, you would FIX THE PROBLEM IN FRONT OF YOU - get the a**hole out of the party, and never invite them anywhere again.

 

This is totally my point - this desire to get other people who (in your view) are misbehaving, to become accountable to you. It's mystifying. What's the payoff for people who seek this accountability from others?

 

Wow. I think you're making more of this than was intended. Or misunderstanding me. I'm not dwelling. At all. I have no expectation of an apology from an OM. I never sought one out. But I don't believe accountability or responsibility for one's actions is solely dependent on how the third party feels about it. If I took part in something that had a negative effect on someone else, I would be responsible for my decision to take part, what I said and what I did, regardless of how the third party felt. I wouldn't expect to be viewed the same as someone who didn't take part in it.

[Woggle]

I'm surprised that there are so many people on this thread that don't have any moral qualms about going after a married person. All my life I believed that was wrong, I think I was raised to think that way. As I said before, if I were to get involved with a married man I would feel that I was doing something wrong. If you do it, I think YOU are doing something wrong!

 

I agree plus a lot of these people are hypocrites since if they were ever cheated on they wouldn't be charitable towards the other person.

[major_merrick]

There's usually so much responsibility to spread around in a cheating situation. Sometimes, the partner that gets cheated on did something to drive their partner into the arms of someone else - denial of sex, weight gain, stress and arguments, etc... I believe that the primary responsibility belongs to the cheater. When you make a promise, you keep it. Responsibility also belongs to the OM/OW. People shouldn't actively try to break up other people's relationships. I see it all the time, though - just plain selfishness. There's also an adventure component - some people like the thrill of possibly being caught. (I don't understand that one).

 

And yes, I have experience with this. I've cheated on a partner, and I've also been the OW once. I didn't like being the OW and called it quits. I also didn't like the aftermath of being a cheater. I'm determined to avoid cheating again, but it can be hard if you feel like you aren't getting everything you need sexually and you have someone standing right there offering you the very thing you don't have.

[purplesorrow]

There's usually so much responsibility to spread around in a cheating situation. Sometimes, the partner that gets cheated on did something to drive their partner into the arms of someone else - denial of sex, weight gain, stress and arguments, etc... I believe that the primary responsibility belongs to the cheater. When you make a promise, you keep it. Responsibility also belongs to the OM/OW. People shouldn't actively try to break up other people's relationships. I see it all the time, though - just plain selfishness. There's also an adventure component - some people like the thrill of possibly being caught. (I don't understand that one).

 

And yes, I have experience with this. I've cheated on a partner, and I've also been the OW once. I didn't like being the OW and called it quits. I also didn't like the aftermath of being a cheater. I'm determined to avoid cheating again, but it can be hard if you feel like you aren't getting everything you need sexually and you have someone standing right there offering you the very thing you don't have.

 

Your partner's behavior determines whether or not you lie and sneak around? Why is your integrity in their control? My ex cheated because he wanted to. His ow was with him because she wanted to. Just because a person extends an invitation [] doesn't mean one has to accept.

Edited April 24, 2016 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Language

[cocorico]

Fair enough.

 

 

So now that I have clarified what I meant, are you sticking with your analogy? Do you actually believe that participating in an affair is the same as trying out for a hockey team, getting in line for donuts, and competing for a promotion?

 

 

 

As has been pointed out, quite a few times now, the point I was responding to was the claim that if an activity causes hurt to someone, then all participants in that activity are to blame.

 

That was the claim that was made. I disputed that with an example, illustrating why I disputed that.

 

I stand by my argument. I do not believe that everyone participating in any activity that happens to cause hurt to someone is to blame for the pain that happens to be felt by the person who happens to feel the pain.

[cocorico]

We know what she was "actually saying." We don't need an interpretation.

 

.

 

This is clearly untrue, as has been demonstrated repeatedly in this thread, including this post. See my post above, clarifying.

[cocorico]

I cant speak to all religions, but at least in the Protestant religion there is an actual part of the ceremony where the congregation is asked to vow to support the marriage. Surely, that does not include having an affair with someone married.

 

Fine. In the case of those who attended those Protestant weddings and stood to join in the vow, that handful of people are bound by proxy. The larger society, which did not participate in that ceremony cannot be held bound by those vows since their agreement was never sought, nor did they nominate the people there to act on their behalf.

[cocorico]

I agree plus a lot of these people are hypocrites since if they were ever cheated on they wouldn't be charitable towards the other person.

 

How would you know how "they" might react? I thought one of the constant refrains from BS here was that there is no way of predicting how one might respond to infidelity - many BS have claimed they always thought they'd respond one way and found themselves responding quite another way.

[Taramere]

Just read a thread where an individual had sex with another, knowing the other had a BF and attempted to claim that he had no responsibility as "he" wasn't the one cheating...

 

What are your thoughts?

 

I think the betrayed partner ought to be permitted to tie him to a chair and beat him up for 20 seconds without being held in any way responsible. Then they can call it quits.

[2.50 a gallon]

AG

 

 

I was a major partier prior to marriage and easily slipped back into that role.

But you are right I had lost all faith in marriage. I never remarried and never had kids.

But on the other had I had a sex life most men you kill for.

[2.50 a gallon]

This thread assumes that the BS is always innocent and has no responsibility for the failure of the marriage. Not always so

Take my co-worker, marriage coming up on 20 years, two teenage sons. The husband had reduced her role in the marriage to that of a nanny to the boys. They never did anything together. Not even Christmas shopping for the boys. Quite simply he was too involved with golf. Weekends were for golf. He would often fly out on Friday night and not return until late Sunday night.

Sex was once or twice a week for him to get his jollies and nothing more. As I said in my last post he opened the door for me.

As for tying me to a chair for 20 minutes.

He would never have golfed again

[Methodical]

As has been pointed out, quite a few times now, the point I was responding to was the claim that if an activity causes hurt to someone, then all participants in that activity are to blame.

 

That was the claim that was made. I disputed that with an example, illustrating why I disputed that.

 

I stand by my argument. I do not believe that everyone participating in any activity that happens to cause hurt to someone is to blame for the pain that happens to be felt by the person who happens to feel the pain.

 

Quoting your post, Coco, bc this expands and demonstrates one of my points .

 

The majority of what I've read makes the OM/OW a rapscallion who should bear responsibility for broken marriage vows. I can't abide by lumping all OM/OW into one category and throwing daggers at them.

 

As I stated before, there are OM/OW who were duped and the cheating spouse played their story and life to a tee in such a way that his actions (singling gender only to make this easier to read, btw) weren't discovered until he got careless and slipped up. E.g. A person whose job takes him away from home, often many nights per week. Has a spouse, maybe a kid or two. While on "business trips," stays with his gf (or in some cases, has a second family). Neither party, the BS or gf, have a clue that he's having his cake and eating it too. No, the OM/OW is not to blame and bears Zero responsibility. There are many scenarios where smooth operators lied and cheated, leaving both their spouse and AP grappling to wrap their mind around what happened to them, not what they caused. As Coco said, all participants are not to blame. It's not always black and white bc there are many shades of gray.

 

Yes, there are many situations where the OM/OW know about the marriage. In almost all those cases, the spouse feeds the OM/OW a sob story about how bad their marriage is and say they are going to leave but sometimes never do. Who got hurt? The OM/OW, bc they believed the lies they were told. Outsiders tend to say, "Well, that's their own fault for getting involved with a married person." True, but that kind of absolves the married person from any wrong doing and places blame solely on the AP. What about the lies and deception he employed for self-gratification?

 

It isn't the general public's job to make a person remain faithful by not participating, and where there's a will, there's a way. If a person wants to cheat, they are going to. In a perfect world nobody would lie, cheat, steal, etc., but it's not a perfect world, and at the end of the day, the person who made the vow bears responsibility. Another person should not be held liable for someone else's promises/pledges/vows.

[Arieswoman]

Major Merrick #214

 

Sometimes, the partner that gets cheated on did something to drive their partner into the arms of someone else - denial of sex, weight gain, stress and arguments, etc.

 

No, no, no.

 

No-one "drove" anyone to do anything.

 

If one partner is miffed by denial of sex, then they try and explore the reason.

 

Weight gain - oh ffs, all women gain weight during pregnancy and most retain some of it after delivery. Sometimes it's very hard to shift. Certainly waistlines won't every be as trim again. That's nature.

 

Stress - then address it and sort it.

 

Arguments - what about? If wifey is being left to do all the household chores and look after kids all day and hubby comes in, flops on the couch and wants to know when his meal is ready - are you surprised he gets a flea in his ear when he comes home?

 

At the end of the day there was an option before choosing to cheat. The fact that in some cases the option wasn't explored says a great deal about the cheating partner's coping skills.

 

So can we put that tired argument from cheater apologists to bed now?

[wmacbride]

Yes, there are many situations where the OM/OW know about the marriage. In almost all those cases, the spouse feeds the OM/OW a sob story about how bad their marriage is and say they are going to leave but sometimes never do. Who got hurt? The OM/OW, bc they believed the lies they were told. Outsiders tend to say, "Well, that's their own fault for getting involved with a married person." True, but that kind of absolves the married person from any wrong doing and places blame solely on the AP. What about the lies and deception he employed for self-gratification?

 

:rolleyes:

No one is saying the ws is blameless.

 

It's interesting how, society, the legal system and most other measures say that an individual who knowingly participates in a particular activity is responsible for its outcome. From buying blood diamonds on down to helping to bully a child on the playground to being part of a mob that vandalizes cars along main street after a hockey game to people who buy fur, someone who drives a getaway car, etc., etc., etc.,

 

It's one thing for an ow/om to not know the person they are involved with is married. That is certainly not their fault.

 

It's realy tenuous ground to say that an ow/om is not 50% responsible for an A because the mm/mw lied about the state of their marriage.

 

It's interesting that so many try to excuse the participation of the ow/om. if they are doing nothing wrong, what is there to excuse? What difference should it make what the mm/mw tells them?

[Sub]

Another person should not be held liable for someone else's promises/pledges/vows.

 

I don't think that claims being made. The smallest minority of people/BS's view the WS as some sort of victim to a predator-like OW/OM. We're all adults making adult decisions. Just because people hold AP's responsible for their own part in the scenario doesn't mean they're absolving their WS in any way. And I disagree with the "if someone wants to cheat, they're going to" reasoning as a means of zeroing out an OW/OM's specific impact. Plenty of evidence to the contrary on that one, on these boards and most likely in everyone's personal experiences.