Abuse isn't black and white...or is it?

[Zapbasket]

I've been therapy for a couple of years now. For a long time, I was resistant to the idea that my stepfather's abuse growing up impacted the kind of romantic partners I've chosen to date, and on a larger scale, impaired my ability to formulate, articulate, and enforce healthy boundaries for myself in all my relationships--romantic, platonic, personal, professional.

 

But as therapy has crumbled more of my walls, it finally became starkly clear to me: my house growing up was crazy. I was afraid of my stepfather. Every day there was some strife that mostly came out of a totally innocent and even pleasant interaction. He constantly looked for something I did wrong, and then it wasn't about just correcting me, but goading me--for example, I had weekly room inspections, which is fair; kids should be expected to have a clean room; but instead of walking through my room and saying, "Looks good" or, "See if you can do a better job next time with organizing your papers / books / fill-in-the-blank," my stepfather made the room inspections about control, not cleanliness. He'd enter my room and if there was a tiny piece of paper, say, on the floor, he'd stop in from of it, stare, point, and in this eerie, quiet voice would say, "What's this?" "A piece of paper," I'd answer. "Why is it here?" "I don't know. I guess it fell there." "It fell," he'd echo with a sneer. And on, and on. This kind of thing was a daily occurrence, to the point that when the school day ended, I sometimes broke out into hives at the idea of having to go home. He worked from home, so there never was a respite.

 

As I look back over my three serious romantic relationships, all of them were with men who were sullen, emotionally closed off, self-absorbed, and who all were mean to me for seemingly no reason. One ex showed up to my apartment for dinner as planned, grumpy as hell, and when I asked him what was wrong, he glowered at me and said, in this mean, insinuating voice, "Just what IS it that makes GreenCove so SPECIAL?" Things like that always threw me off balance; I'd get this sick, bad feeling inside while doing my utmost to "fix" the situation and simultaneously feeling hurt and frustrated and eventually, angry. When inevitably I'd end up furious and call the guys out on it, they'd turn everything around on me, saying I was mean and it was all my fault.

 

Recently I read "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans. I immediately recognized my mother, my stepfather, and my ex-boyfriends in the abuser role Evans delineates. But what confuses me is that she paints a very black-and-white picture of the kinds of interactions partners have with their abusers, whereas in all of my relationships, there were lots of nice interactions, too; it's just that then this dynamic Evans describes would come out of nowhere, leaving me confused, sad, and utterly baffled as to why these people were being so cold / withholding / nasty / sullen with me.

 

I guess what I'm asking is, even with the "nice times," were these still abusive relationships? And was I implicated in that for getting angry at my stepfather, my mother, and my boyfriends after one of their "episodes" with me? I'd end up furious once my confusion and overall stupefaction regarding the interaction wore off. I'd yell at them, tell the to stop it, and / or cry, and they they'd ALL, my mother included, say, "Look at you and your bad temper," and they'd say I was the problem, not them. I would then feel guilty and ashamed, and round and round and round it would go.

 

But I love my mom, and my exes weren't bad people--at least two of the three of them weren't. So why did they act that way with me? Was it abuse?

 

Intellectually there's no debate in my mind--yes, it was abuse. But emotionally I'm still "confused," because I remember the loving times, not really with my stepfather, but certainly with my mom and my exes. The same boyfriend, for instance, who out of nowhere showed all this hostility and slammed on his brakes and hissed, "Damn it!" when we were in Cape Cod and I wanted to show him the bay at low tide, and then stood at the water's edge with his arms crossed and a scowl on his face while I tried to engage him in the moment...that same boyfriend just a month or two later looked at me with love and admiration as I waded in knee-deep ocean in British Columbia, where he was from, and excitedly picked up huge purple starfish out of the water.

 

I guess emotionally, I'm still trying to untangle myself from years of unhappy relationships.

 

Just trying to put some pieces together, now that it seems I am emotionally open and ready to do so.

[preraph]

It's dysfunction and abuse. Raising a child with a lot of chaos is abuse. Letting a child see physical violence or hear nasty fights is abuse. It affects everything about you. It's your modeling for picking a mate. It's a lot to overcome. I honestly think if it hadn't been for corny shows on TV showing happy families, I'd be a lot worse than I am because at least that told me my family wasn't always healthy, some perspective. And without even realizing it, you'll feel comfortable and familiar around someone because they have some of those same traits or ways of interacting, and you'll let them in because it feels familiar to you and also because over the years, you developed some survival skills of how to deal with that type of person, like whether you leave the house or whether you tease them out of it, or whatever. And that brings more bad people into your life because you're tolerating that behavior instead of walking away from it.

[elaine567]

People who abuse do not do so 24/7, they also do " normal" and "nice".

It is the "normal" and "nice" that hooks the victim in. It gives the victim hope and a justification for staying put.

"He punched me yes, but he was so good to me that day we spent at the zoo and later on he bought me my lovely necklace - he must love me deep down..."

If they didn't do "normal" and "nice", then most would run a mile and keep running.

[Jabron1]

Probably all of our parents were crazy. My dad was a real hard-arse, and still can be. I have to remind him occasionally that he isn't dealing with a 13 year old anymore.

 

However, I don't really have much time for this 'victim' mindset. As an adult, we have to take responsibility for ourselves.

 

Thinking back through my life, I've only really been a 'victim' of my own naivety and stupidity. With the exception of extreme circumstances, I think that goes for most other people too.

 

At some point, people need to stop passing the buck IMO.

[Zapbasket]

Probably all of our parents were crazy. My dad was a real hard-arse, and still can be. I have to remind him occasionally that he isn't dealing with a 13 year old anymore.

 

However, I don't really have much time for this 'victim' mindset. As an adult, we have to take responsibility for ourselves.

 

Thinking back through my life, I've only really been a 'victim' of my own naivety and stupidity. With the exception of extreme circumstances, I think that goes for most other people too.

 

At some point, people need to stop passing the buck IMO.

 

Cultivating self-awareness by looking at how major influences of the past (caregivers, etc.) shaped your thinking and expectations, particularly when you recognize a pattern in your present relationships that has adverse consequences for you, is hardly playing the part of "victim."

 

Sometimes you have to take a hard look at how you came to be how you are. Perhaps, for example, your "hard-azz" parent blocked the development of your empathy, for yourself and by extension, for others.

[Zapbasket]

People who abuse do not do so 24/7, they also do " normal" and "nice".

It is the "normal" and "nice" that hooks the victim in. It gives the victim hope and a justification for staying put.

"He punched me yes, but he was so good to me that day we spent at the zoo and later on he bought me my lovely necklace - he must love me deep down..."

If they didn't do "normal" and "nice", then most would run a mile and keep running.

 

That makes sense. I do know that over the years, people who saw what happened in my home--which was rare, because I was only ever allowed to have friends over when my stepfather was gone (this actually worked out well because my stepfather made my friends uncomfortable), said to me that the tension in my house was very uncomfortable. My stepfather's own son, who was nearly 15 years older than me, and his wife, said to me when I was a teenager, "As soon as you graduate, get as far as you can from all of this and never come back." And just a couple of years ago, I ran into a high school friend at a conference; we went to dinner together and were reminiscing and she said, "How did you turn out so normal? Your dynamics with your parents were insane."

 

It was at that moment that I realized that other people took to be insane what I'd taken for years to be "normal." Of course, another part of me knew it wasn't normal. Now, coming EMOTIONALLY to the understanding, not just intellectually, that these dynamics were not normal at all makes it possible to begin to set different expectations for my interactions with people. There's just this insidious part of me that blames ME for everything, and it obscures my clarity.

[elaine567]

That makes sense. I do know that over the years, people who saw what happened in my home--which was rare, because I was only ever allowed to have friends over when my stepfather was gone (this actually worked out well because my stepfather made my friends uncomfortable), said to me that the tension in my house was very uncomfortable. My stepfather's own son, who was nearly 15 years older than me, and his wife, said to me when I was a teenager, "As soon as you graduate, get as far as you can from all of this and never come back." And just a couple of years ago, I ran into a high school friend at a conference; we went to dinner together and were reminiscing and she said, "How did you turn out so normal? Your dynamics with your parents were insane."

 

It was at that moment that I realized that other people took to be insane what I'd taken for years to be "normal." Of course, another part of me knew it wasn't normal. Now, coming EMOTIONALLY to the understanding, not just intellectually, that these dynamics were not normal at all makes it possible to begin to set different expectations for my interactions with people. There's just this insidious part of me that blames ME for everything, and it obscures my clarity.

 

It is the "normalisation" of abuse, that sends kids from dysfunctional homes into the arms of one abusive person after another... after another...

Kind and gentle is "boring and dull" or not "real", so they chase after drama and chaos as that is what they see as "normal".

[Zapbasket]

It is the "normalisation" of abuse, that sends kids from dysfunctional homes into the arms of one abusive person after another... after another...

Kind and gentle is "boring and dull" or not "real", so they chase after drama and chaos as that is what they see as "normal".

 

What confuses me at times are things like knowing my first ex, whom I dated for five years and who was the one I mentioned in my original post as saying sarcastically, "Just what IS it that makes GreenCove so SPECIAL?", is now married with a beautiful little baby girl. Yes, it took him over six years to get married since we broke up, but I find myself wondering how he can have a happy marriage if he is non-communicative, sullen, puts his wife down, and withholding...of course, also alongside being affectionate and sweet at times. He wasn't the most prone to introspection and so I can't imagine that he has done some hard work on himself over the years since we broke up...so I must assume he treats his wife similarly to how he treated me...so how can that WORK for him, since it didn't work with me? Having not yet had a successful relationship, that really stirs up my insecurities.

[lana-banana]

I don't know if the experiences you describe from your childhood are necessarily abusive, but they made me think about what constitutes emotional abuse. It sounds like your stepfather was cold and cruel; is that abuse? Everyone has the capacity to be mean, manipulative and petty, but at what point does a bad relationship become an abusive one? Is a jackass who puts you down a loser or an abuser? I really don't know, and "abuse" is such a charged word that it's difficult to grasp analytically.

 

As an aside, of course it's not black and white, and of course abusers can be loving, kind people at times. They could even be loving, kind people most of the time, which is why their partners rationalize their behavior. Victims of abuse often go to great lengths to extol their partner's virtues! "Oh, but he's such a good person, he's the sweetest person I've ever known, he just has a bad temper when he drinks..."

 

I also think the abuse issue is the least important part of your discovery. What matters here is you've realized you're repeating scenarios from your childhood, when you were anxious and insecure while trying to gain approval from someone distant. The rarity of that approval must make it feel all the more precious. Now that you know you do that, you can start making progress towards healthier relationships and recognizing those negative behaviors when they arise.

 

What confuses me at times are things like knowing my first ex, whom I dated for five years and who was the one I mentioned in my original post as saying sarcastically, "Just what IS it that makes GreenCove so SPECIAL?", is now married with a beautiful little baby girl. Yes, it took him over six years to get married since we broke up, but I find myself wondering how he can have a happy marriage if he is non-communicative, sullen, puts his wife down, and withholding...of course, also alongside being affectionate and sweet at times. He wasn't the most prone to introspection and so I can't imagine that he has done some hard work on himself over the years since we broke up...so I must assume he treats his wife similarly to how he treated me...so how can that WORK for him, since it didn't work with me? Having not yet had a successful relationship, that really stirs up my insecurities.

 

I don't think this line of reasoning is helpful. You don't know this guy anymore or what his life is like. You have no idea whether he's non-communicative or sullen with his wife (and fixating on those details is, again, not helpful). He may have a perfectly happy and healthy marriage now. You can't see his current marriage or the success thereof as a reflection on you in any way because it has nothing to do with you. And that's a great thing.

 

I've always tried to be the best version of myself, but I admit there were times in past relationships when I wasn't as nice as I could have been. I was never abusive or deliberately hurtful, but I know for a fact I was sullen and withdrawn sometimes, and I think it's mostly because I just wasn't with the right guy for me. Obviously that's no excuse to be mean, but I simply couldn't be my best self then. If you'll indulge a silly analogy: think of it like a new pair of shoes. How do you feel when you walk around all day in gorgeous heels that give you horrendous ankle blisters? You try to ignore it for a while, maybe you put Band-Aids over them, you grit your teeth and tell yourself it's worth the pain, that it'll go away eventually. You're still cranky and irritable all day, feeling your skin rub raw with every step, until finally you take the g-d-mned things off and it's a tremendous relief. Compare that experience to the cute little kitten heels that felt like they'd been made just for you, that go with just about everything in your closet and you would happily wear everywhere for the rest of your life.

 

Can you accept you deserve to be happy, you should be treated with respect, and you're powerless to change people? If someone is cold and hateful you don't have to work yourself into a frenzy trying to please them. They aren't worth it. No amount of striving on your part is going to make them the man of your dreams any more than all your best childhood efforts could make your stepfather kind to you.

 

I think you take a very serious, almost reverent view of relationships, which is a good thing. You should be serious about an emotional investment in someone! Frankly, if more people felt that way, there might be a lot less hurt in the world. But not everyone has that perspective, nor should they have to. When a relationship ends it's not necessarily an indictment of one person's failings or a sign that one person is superior to another. Sometimes it's just the wrong pair of shoes.

[BC1980]

I don't know that I can give you any black and white answers, but I will try. I've certainly had some of the same questions as you.

 

I would say to look for:

 

1. A consistent pattern of behavior. I'd also add frequency to this.

 

2. A consistent pattern of no empathy or remorse for actions that hurt another person.

 

I think those can be starting points. We can all behave badly at times, but I think the pattern and frequency are important. Does the person act abusive most of the time? Does the person show any empathy or attempt to understand how you feel? Does the person attempt to apologize or change things in the future? Even really bad people have good points, and even really good people have bad points. I think the behavior falls on a spectrum. For instance, my grandfather is very verbally abusive and always has been. However, he bought me a car when I graduated high school, and I was very grateful for that. But overall, I'd say he's very abusive and minimizes anyone else's feelings.

[jen1447]

I don't know if the experiences you describe from your childhood are necessarily abusive, but they made me think about what constitutes emotional abuse. It sounds like your stepfather was cold and cruel; is that abuse? Everyone has the capacity to be mean, manipulative and petty, but at what point does a bad relationship become an abusive one? Is a jackass who puts you down a loser or an abuser? I really don't know, and "abuse" is such a charged word that it's difficult to grasp analytically.

 

Someone generally insulting you ("you're a jerk!") isn't abuse, but systematic dismantling of a person's self-esteem via regular insults in a domestic environment, like is sometimes undergone by children and domestic partners in the home, is very clearly abuse. So IMO Green Cove's childhood qualifies, based on what she told us.

 

What confuses me at times are things like knowing my first ex, whom I dated for five years and who was the one I mentioned in my original post as saying sarcastically, "Just what IS it that makes GreenCove so SPECIAL?", is now married with a beautiful little baby girl. Yes, it took him over six years to get married since we broke up, but I find myself wondering how he can have a happy marriage if he is non-communicative, sullen, puts his wife down, and withholding...of course, also alongside being affectionate and sweet at times. He wasn't the most prone to introspection and so I can't imagine that he has done some hard work on himself over the years since we broke up...so I must assume he treats his wife similarly to how he treated me...so how can that WORK for him, since it didn't work with me? Having not yet had a successful relationship, that really stirs up my insecurities.

 

Some ppl are weaker than others unfortunately. Where you had the strength to get rid of the guy, maybe his wife doesn't. That's not to say he maybe didn't get some help and fix himself and their marriage is possibly happy, but it could well be there situation's no better than yours was and she just lacks the wherewithal to get out of it. (Plus kids, eek.)

 

As far as legit abusers/controllers go, that scenario is working for them. :-/

 

GC, I think the guilt and self-blame (and even to some extent self-loathing) is part and parcel with the brainwashing that these types of ppl carry out over time. You're made to feel personally responsible for things you couldn't possibly control, or for insane standards (like "I can't allow BF to get mad at me bc that will ruin his day and if that happens he'll hit me and that will make him feel even worse, so I have to make sure I do whatever x-y-z thing to prevent that chain from happening and if I don't I'm a failure and a terrible person."). Given that it's entirely understandable it'd take some time to disassemble all that circuitry and grasp both emotionally and intellectually that it was a con game. It's not unlike the parent-guilt some ppl carry around even thruout their adult lives (albeit less sinister) - e.g. you think you can't date someone you like bc it would make your mother unhappy and when she's unhappy she gets sick so by dating someone you like you're making your mother sick and what kind of terrible person would make their mother sick on purpose, etc., never mind it's actually your mother's issue (that she's happy to exploit in you), not yours.

 

Sometimes these systematic Stockholm syndrome type big picture cons are really insidious and infect every aspect of your psyche.

[preraph]

That makes sense. I do know that over the years, people who saw what happened in my home--which was rare, because I was only ever allowed to have friends over when my stepfather was gone (this actually worked out well because my stepfather made my friends uncomfortable), said to me that the tension in my house was very uncomfortable. My stepfather's own son, who was nearly 15 years older than me, and his wife, said to me when I was a teenager, "As soon as you graduate, get as far as you can from all of this and never come back." And just a couple of years ago, I ran into a high school friend at a conference; we went to dinner together and were reminiscing and she said, "How did you turn out so normal? Your dynamics with your parents were insane."

 

It was at that moment that I realized that other people took to be insane what I'd taken for years to be "normal." Of course, another part of me knew it wasn't normal. Now, coming EMOTIONALLY to the understanding, not just intellectually, that these dynamics were not normal at all makes it possible to begin to set different expectations for my interactions with people. There's just this insidious part of me that blames ME for everything, and it obscures my clarity.

 

You either model it or you rebel against it. But even if you rebel against it, which I did, there are still dynamics from the modeling affecting you because you still saw it happen and you're still familiar with it. I don't really trust myself to filter out an abuser, so what I've always done is go on the offensive about it, like in the first few dates letting them know I watched my dad hit my mother and would NEVER put up with it. I've even told guys if they did, they better not go to sleep that night. It's certainly the type thing you'd read about a guy complaining about on LoveShack, but it worked for me. Never had an issue personally, ever. I had an abuser kind of in love with me once that I worked with, but I told him right up front I'd never date him because I knew how he was.

[mikeylo]

I don't really trust myself to filter out an abuser, so what I've always done is go on the offensive about it, like in the first few dates letting them know I watched my dad hit my mother and would NEVER put up with it. I've even told guys if they did, they better not go to sleep that night. It's certainly the type thing you'd read about a guy complaining about on LoveShack, but it worked for me. Never had an issue personally, ever. I had an abuser kind of in love with me once that I worked with, but I told him right up front I'd never date him because I knew how he was.

 

I would advise not doing this. It might have worked for you so far , but it can land you a charmer abuser who would be very nice/understanding/caring to get you in and once reeled , his real self comes out. Happens often. You do have a choice to dump but dont count on working it all the time.

[mikeylo]

Abuse is not black and white. There is passive/aggressive personality that takes you through a living nightmare ! As a child when you experience abuse even if second hand, you take it with you for the rest of your life. All the therapy in the world will never take away that feeling of deep hurt. It will help you make better choices and live a better life though.

[preraph]

I would advise not doing this. It might have worked for you so far , but it can land you a charmer abuser who would be very nice/understanding/caring to get you in and once reeled , his real self comes out. Happens often. You do have a choice to dump but dont count on working it all the time.

 

There is risk any way you go about it. But since a whole lot of different categories of abusers are actually cowards, I think they scare pretty good.

[Lady2163]

I'm pretty sure I've already mentioned the "victim vibe" to you. I can see how you're putting it out there. You do have to be careful about telling men about the dysfunction and abuse you suffered and saw in your past. It lets abusers know you are ripe for picking.

 

You have to learn to express your limits/boundaries. I've had so,e abusive and neglectful relationships. It took me a long time not to fight, pout or argue about things. I'd let the incidents go, but I'd stew and be inwardly pissed about it. Then I'd explode over something stupid and look like a crazy woman.

 

Because it is crazy making.

 

"Hey, it's not okay...." That became a mantra for me.

 

Hey it's not okay that you were 15 minutes late picking me up for my doctor appointment. They are making me reschedule the procedure. I have to take another day off from work and so do you.

 

Hey, it's not okay that you were just rude to me for no reason.

 

Just because I love you, doesn't mean it is okay for you to ditch me because your ex girlfriend has a drama queen crisis. If you and your best friend had tickets to xyz, you wouldn't cancel on them at the last minute and not be able to get the tickets to them.

 

By the way, in that last example, he sold the tickets to the ex girlfriend's neighbor two hours beforehand. He knew he wasn't taking me.

 

Even though you love someone, you need to be mentally prepared to walk away if they don't treat you right.

[Zapbasket]

Thanks for all the responses. It really helps to hear other perspectives.

 

The issue I have is that rather than be "mentally prepared to walk away," to quote Lady2163, when someone acts beneath my expectations, rather than feel empowered to walk, I feel...entrenched, like I have to find a way to be comfortable with what is being offered, and that "way" is not to walk, but to try to adapt. I start questioning myself, i.e.: "Are my expectations reasonable?" "Did I misread the situation?" "Am I being oversensitive?" Somehow at that juncture I don't feel empowered to say, "Reasonable or not, ____ were my expectations, and they were not met, and it's making me feel uncomfortable, and if this person is considering me then on that fact alone they will at minimum be willing to engage in a discussion with me and be sorry at least that their behavior made me feel bad."

 

Now that I am single, and looking back on past failed relationships, it's "easy" to see that I was perhaps too permissive, since those behaviors I overlooked, and the fact that I overlooked them despite feeling off-center about them, together served to bring about the demise of the relationships. When I did call the people out on their behavior--and I always eventually did--they only resented me for communicating how X or Y behaviors bothered me...which led to them doing MORE of the bothersome behavior.

 

So what do you think the problem is? That I failed to COMMUNICATE in a clear enough way what was bothering me and why, and what I expected to come about as a result of my communication? Or that I failed to see that no matter how I communicated my displeasure, the other parties didn't seem particularly bothered that I felt hurt?

 

I ask this, and started this thread, because I want to respond differently to triggers than I have in the past in relationships. I want to feel like it is always an option to walk away, to hold my love and fidelity to my own well being above the relationship in importance. It's like the relationship, and keeping it, becomes more important than any other consideration. Is that part of what codependency is?

 

I like Preraph's method of weeding out potential abusers, but I'm not sure it would be effective for me, since I do feel that if anyone ever hit me I would instantly cut off the relationship, and since what I've experienced that has proven so damaging is a basic lack of concern for my feelings, and that takes a long time to reveal itself. It seems like at the time, those moments of irritability or general insulting-ness or withdrawal that I've experienced from people just seems like they're caused by some general malaise they're feeling, and so I feel called upon to try to be compassionate even though at times I'm really infuriated at how obnoxious they're being. When I look back, though, those moments seem like windows into how little they perhaps actually, or effectively, cared--about me, and about our relationship. So...how, in those moments, do you empower yourself to say, "No, this is just plain unacceptable, regardless of what is going on with this person that might have 'caused' them to act that way"?

[Zapbasket]

 

I've always tried to be the best version of myself, but I admit there were times in past relationships when I wasn't as nice as I could have been. I was never abusive or deliberately hurtful, but I know for a fact I was sullen and withdrawn sometimes, and I think it's mostly because I just wasn't with the right guy for me. Obviously that's no excuse to be mean, but I simply couldn't be my best self then. If you'll indulge a silly analogy: think of it like a new pair of shoes. How do you feel when you walk around all day in gorgeous heels that give you horrendous ankle blisters? You try to ignore it for a while, maybe you put Band-Aids over them, you grit your teeth and tell yourself it's worth the pain, that it'll go away eventually. You're still cranky and irritable all day, feeling your skin rub raw with every step, until finally you take the g-d-mned things off and it's a tremendous relief. Compare that experience to the cute little kitten heels that felt like they'd been made just for you, that go with just about everything in your closet and you would happily wear everywhere for the rest of your life.

 

This is interesting to me. You're saying, right?--that overall you're not an irritable person, but being with some guys MADE you irritable, whereas other guys you didn't feel that way? I do know one of my exes said, as one reason he was breaking up with me: "You grate on me." I was hurt, and also indignant, inwardly, because he could be such a nebbish and sometimes it drove me crazy, and I, who had FAR more of a likable personality than he did, "grated" on him?

 

All of my exes were grumpy and closed off, not just to me, but ESPECIALLY with me. I want to think that's more because I chose the wrong guys, than that they were with the wrong woman. Though maybe those two things are hand in hand. I guess then I don't understand why they stayed with me for so long, if the fundamental issue was that they just weren't that into me. :confused:

 

 

I think you take a very serious, almost reverent view of relationships, which is a good thing. You should be serious about an emotional investment in someone! Frankly, if more people felt that way, there might be a lot less hurt in the world. But not everyone has that perspective, nor should they have to. When a relationship ends it's not necessarily an indictment of one person's failings or a sign that one person is superior to another. Sometimes it's just the wrong pair of shoes.

 

I appreciate you saying it's a good thing, and I agree with you. AND, I also think that if I could feel more empowered to walk when things aren't to my liking, I wouldn't have to be so "reverent." I think a lot of that, in specific relationships, is my feeling like I have to accommodate to the other person. Maybe I don't have to try to accommodate nearly so much?

[Lady2163]

Thanks for all the responses. It really helps to hear other perspectives.

 

The issue I have is that rather than be "mentally prepared to walk away," to quote Lady2163, when someone acts beneath my expectations, rather than feel empowered to walk, I feel...entrenched, like I have to find a way to be comfortable with what is being offered, and that "way" is not to walk, but to try to adapt. I start questioning myself, i.e.: "Are my expectations reasonable?" "Did I misread the situation?" "Am I being oversensitive?" Somehow at that juncture I don't feel empowered to say, "Reasonable or not, ____ were my expectations, and they were not met, and it's making me feel uncomfortable, and if this person is considering me then on that fact alone they will at minimum be willing to engage in a discussion with me and be sorry at least that their behavior made me feel bad."

 

Now that I am single, and looking back on past failed relationships, it's "easy" to see that I was perhaps too permissive, since those behaviors I overlooked, and the fact that I overlooked them despite feeling off-center about them, together served to bring about the demise of the relationships. When I did call the people out on their behavior--and I always eventually did--they only resented me for communicating how X or Y behaviors bothered me...which led to them doing MORE of the bothersome behavior.

 

So what do you think the problem is? That I failed to COMMUNICATE in a clear enough way what was bothering me and why, and what I expected to come about as a result of my communication? Or that I failed to see that no matter how I communicated my displeasure, the other parties didn't seem particularly bothered that I felt hurt?

 

I ask this, and started this thread, because I want to respond differently to triggers than I have in the past in relationships. I want to feel like it is always an option to walk away, to hold my love and fidelity to my own well being above the relationship in importance. It's like the relationship, and keeping it, becomes more important than any other consideration. Is that part of what codependency is?

 

I like Preraph's method of weeding out potential abusers, but I'm not sure it would be effective for me, since I do feel that if anyone ever hit me I would instantly cut off the relationship, and since what I've experienced that has proven so damaging is a basic lack of concern for my feelings, and that takes a long time to reveal itself. It seems like at the time, those moments of irritability or general insulting-ness or withdrawal that I've experienced from people just seems like they're caused by some general malaise they're feeling, and so I feel called upon to try to be compassionate even though at times I'm really infuriated at how obnoxious they're being. When I look back, though, those moments seem like windows into how little they perhaps actually, or effectively, cared--about me, and about our relationship. So...how, in those moments, do you empower yourself to say, "No, this is just plain unacceptable, regardless of what is going on with this person that might have 'caused' them to act that way"?

 

When I look back at one of my abusers, it just amazes me at how thorough he was at training me and lowering my expectations. It was so subtle and minimal to start and he didn't appear to be smart enough to do what he was doing, and certainly he wasn't doing it intentionally....

 

Time was a precious commodity for me. I was going to school, had an internship, had a part time foster child, was doing volunteer work and had a sporadic job. Every minute counted. I was also very stressed due to divorce, financial shortages and trying to sell a house.

 

Let's say I finished class by 300 and was home by 320. Jerk and I are scheduled to go out to eat at 700. He doesn't drive, he hangs out at the bar ten hours a day. That morning he told me he'd call me at 400. I get home, get the mail, feed the dogs do a couple of things and when I look at the clock, there isn't enough time to study or go on the Internet (back in the days of dial up and only one phone line). 400, 415, 430, 500. At 515 I call him at the bar - which I hate-makes me look needy and the bartender knows his girlfriend is tracking him down...agin.

 

"Oh! I was literally walking to the phone to call you. Listen, something has come up, let me call you back at 600. Where do you want to eat?"

 

Now I get off the phone, maybe pop online to check email. Only about 30 minutes, not much time to work on that paper.

 

600, 615, 645. I call him...again.

 

"Listen, Jane (his ex girlfriend and now best friend) has this problem and we're talking about it. Don't tell her I told you. We're still doing supper. Let me call you back in just a few.

 

Fast forward to 900 PM. I haven't been able to go on the Internet and do any research, because he's just going to call me right back. I really can't start anything, because I will be interrupted at any moment. He calls and tells me to come down to the bar and have a drink and we will go out to eat.

 

I'm almost a non drinker. Maybe 12 drinks a year. I get to the bar and ex girlfriend is supposed to call by 930 - there was a problem after all and she is supposed to hear information and get back to him.

 

945 I remind him all restaurants close at 1000. Well, we just can't LEAVE, he is waiting for her to call him. He might need to borrow my car tomorrow for this serious problem.

 

1030 I tell him we should leave now, I don't want to be making eggs at 200 AM. Plus, there is sex to be had (i don't say that, but think it).

 

200 AM I'm making eggs. And I'm starved because I haven't eaten in 14 hours. Then we have sex. Then my alarm goes off at 700 AM. He doesn't even wake up anymore. He sleeps until noon. My day starts all over again.

 

This was my routine for over a year. I think his primary challenge was to come up with different scenarios as to how to keep me on the hook more nights than not. He was very talented. I look back now and just shake my head.

 

I went wrong with a couple of things. First time he called 15 minutes late, my response was, "Oh, that's okay I was studying and lost track of time."

 

He truly was a sociopath. That sentence tells a normal person nothing important. A sociopath learns two things: 1) I need time to study and 2) I'm not cranky at 15 minutes late...how about 30 minutes?

 

Every time I expressed a want or a need, his goal was now to prevent that from happening and to do it in a way I wouldn't notice. That was his rush. Normal people just don't think like that.

 

I needed to "walk away." I needed to make other plans. When he was late calling, I shouldn't have answered the phone. I needed to say: I'm eating at 700 and I'm going to bed at midnight. And I needed to take the phone off the hook. I needed to not be so eager for the crumbs he was giving me and the surprisingly good sex.

 

Nobody could have told me this when I was in the middle of it. It was so damaging, because every time we made plans it never crossed my mind he would find a way out of them yet again.

 

But I gave off the victim vibe. Not intentionally by any means, but it was still there.

 

People who have not been abused set limits for themselves. They don't go without food or sleep with such flimsy circumstances. They don't allow someone to manipulate what is important to their success. They do it without thinking.

 

A victim will accept poor behavior or not react as negatively as they should. A victim accepts the absolute least in relationships. A victim doesn't fight or negotiate for their best interest. A victim doesn't recognize the warning signs.

 

I realize technology has eliminated much of the problem from this past relationship. But, what I should have done instead...

 

"Don't call me at 4:00, call me at 330. I need to go online at 3:45 for a couple of hours."

At 630 - "I'm going to go get a sandwich with Jane and go to a movie. I'm busy tomorrow, but let's do supper the day after."

 

And then I needed to feed myself, study, take the phone off the hook and go to bed.

[lana-banana]

This is interesting to me. You're saying, right?--that overall you're not an irritable person, but being with some guys MADE you irritable, whereas other guys you didn't feel that way?

 

Yeah, that about sums it up. I don't know if I'd say they "made" me irritable, if only because that makes it sound like they were actively trying to bug me. It just wasn't a good fit, and that discomfort exacerbated all my other discomforts. Little things that wouldn't ordinarily bother me much became absolutely intolerable. Conversely, I'm much more patient with my current boyfriend and I find myself more relaxed and easygoing in his presence than I've ever been in my life.

 

I do know one of my exes said, as one reason he was breaking up with me: "You grate on me." I was hurt, and also indignant, inwardly, because he could be such a nebbish and sometimes it drove me crazy, and I, who had FAR more of a likable personality than he did, "grated" on him?

 

This type of comparison seems both unhealthy and unhelpful. He has a right to find you grating just as you have a right to find him spineless. There's no need to focus on the details or who seemed "better" than whom. You weren't a good match and shouldn't have been together, that's all.

 

All of my exes were grumpy and closed off, not just to me, but ESPECIALLY with me. I want to think that's more because I chose the wrong guys, than that they were with the wrong woman. Though maybe those two things are hand in hand.

 

Yes, yes they are, if I'm reading you correctly. Maybe you did pick guys who were grumpy and closed-off at the time, but it's not like they were all hopelessly broken human beings incapable of healthy relationships. At the time you met them they just weren't in a position to offer you what you wanted, which is more than reason enough to walk away.

 

I guess then I don't understand why they stayed with me for so long, if the fundamental issue was that they just weren't that into me. :confused:

 

My boyfriend has a quip about his last girlfriend: "It wasn't a four-year relationship. It was a one-year relationship that lasted four years." Many people, and especially men, are very susceptible to inertia. At some point they find it easier to ignore their unhappiness than to do anything about it, because change is scary and denial is a powerful force. I know I've talked myself into staying in less-than-ideal relationships because everything seemed right on paper and there just had to be something wrong with me, if only I'd just work a little harder...

 

I appreciate you saying it's a good thing, and I agree with you. AND, I also think that if I could feel more empowered to walk when things aren't to my liking, I wouldn't have to be so "reverent." I think a lot of that, in specific relationships, is my feeling like I have to accommodate to the other person. Maybe I don't have to try to accommodate nearly so much?

 

Of course you don't. You don't have to wait for someone to hit you to recognize things aren't right. When your needs aren't being met, you have a responsibility---not just a right, but a responsibility (because people can't read your mind, no matter how long you've known them)---to explain what's wrong and how you want things to be fixed. The other person will either modify their behavior accordingly or not. But if things don't get better of course you should walk. Accommodating others at the expense of your own happiness is never a good idea.

[mellywell]

Authentic abuse is dangerous, terrible, and destructive. And sadly, many men and women are subjected to it.

 

However, the word abuse has become so broad in order to mean so many things, I wonder sometimes if it is starting to mean nothing. A parent telling a child for years they they were a worthless mistake is abuse. A husband who tells a wife "that was stupid" in a loud voice after a bad day at work and in response to something careless is NOT abuse. It just is NOT. A woman wrote a book about abuse a few years ago, and she basically said, "if you feel like it's abuse, then it is." I think this was hogwash, and it really diluted what abuse is and did a disservice to those who ARE actually victims of abuse.

 

Now should the grumpy husband apologize? Probably. Did he abuse his wife? No.

[BC1980]

Now that I am single, and looking back on past failed relationships, it's "easy" to see that I was perhaps too permissive, since those behaviors I overlooked, and the fact that I overlooked them despite feeling off-center about them, together served to bring about the demise of the relationships. When I did call the people out on their behavior--and I always eventually did--they only resented me for communicating how X or Y behaviors bothered me...which led to them doing MORE of the bothersome behavior.

 

So what do you think the problem is? That I failed to COMMUNICATE in a clear enough way what was bothering me and why, and what I expected to come about as a result of my communication? Or that I failed to see that no matter how I communicated my displeasure, the other parties didn't seem particularly bothered that I felt hurt?

 

I think the problem is with those people. I can't imagine dismissing a concern from a person I love. I can't imagine continuing the behavior that hurt the person. Even if I didn't see it from their perspective, I would take their feelings into account and attempt to change what I was doing. That seems to be a very reasonable expectation from a romantic partner or just anyone in general with whom you have a relationship. I think it's just rude and dismissive not to even try to see the other person's perspective.

 

My ex was very dismissive of my feelings, and it was a consistent pattern. For example, when we would return from vacations, he would always schedule the flights to return at night, and I would have to work the next day. I had offered a compromise of returning a day early or returning in the afternoon if that was not possible. He could have cared less. It almost seemed like he scheduled the flights late to spite me or something. Or to prove he could and that he was going to do what he wanted to do. That's not anything abusive or a terribly bid deal in the big picture. But it just kind of feeds into the overall theme of him not really trying to see my side or even being willing to compromise. I think that kind of stuff grates on you over time. Especially, because I tend to overextend myself to please others. I'm working on stopping that though.

 

I just know that I would have taken his concerns into consideration, and I guess that's the problem. It wasn't reciprocal. The level of care wasn't reciprocal between us. And I don't know if he just didn't love me enough or if he treated everyone that way. Maybe it was a combination of both.

[BC1980]

All of my exes were grumpy and closed off, not just to me, but ESPECIALLY with me. I want to think that's more because I chose the wrong guys, than that they were with the wrong woman. Though maybe those two things are hand in hand. I guess then I don't understand why they stayed with me for so long, if the fundamental issue was that they just weren't that into me. :confused:

 

It might be that both of you were wrong for each other. I don't think anyone has to be superior. I think my ex and I are very different emotionally, and we value different things in life. Apparently, he found someone that he gels with enough to marry her. They probably have a different dynamic that works for them.

 

People stay for a lot of reasons. It's hard to leave someone that you are somewhat ambivalent about. My ex said there was nothing badly wrong with me or the relationship, but he just felt wrong about marrying me. He probably just lost feelings over time. He even said it would have been easy to leave if I had done something like cheated on him. I think he wanted to leave for a long time, but he just didn't know how to extricate himself from the relationship. I don't hate him for that. I wish we had both made better choices, but we are ultimately better going our separate ways. I'm happier, and I think he probably is too.

[Zapbasket]

 

Yes, yes they are, if I'm reading you correctly. Maybe you did pick guys who were grumpy and closed-off at the time, but it's not like they were all hopelessly broken human beings incapable of healthy relationships. At the time you met them they just weren't in a position to offer you what you wanted, which is more than reason enough to walk away.

 

I want to respond to more later tonight when I have more time, but the bolded leaped out at me because actually, that's EXACTLY what they were and are. No joke; not exaggerating; it was something that was very apparent to others from the outside, and shockingly not apparent to me...or I had copious amounts of denial gloss over that glaring fact.

 

Regarding the ex I said I was "better" personality-wise than...well, he WAS a diagnosed NPD. He couldn't deny it because he's also an expert, as a career, on personality disorders, and his OWN self-designed personality tests logged him time and again as NPD. I don't feel a whit bad or unhealthy for saying now that yup, I DID INDEED HAVE A BETTER PERSONALITY THAN HIM; his own "friends" felt so and it was obvious because, first and foremost, I don't have a personality disorder. What I am recognizing as unhealthy is the fact that I would ever date such a person, that I have chosen THREE times now emotional cripples and tried to make a relationship out of it. Why would I do that? That's what my self-improvement is focused on.

 

Sometimes, all things are NOT equal, and all people are not capable of the same things. some people truly ARE incapable of having a healthy relationship, now, and likely in the future. I do think it is healthy to learn to recognize that getting involved with such a person is going to be an uphill battle at best, but more likely a flailing breast-stroke through quicksand. I don't believe for a minute that any of the three guys I got involved with have gone on to healthy relationships. And no, I don't care, except in so far as I recognize that the "potential" I thought I saw there really wasn't much of a "potential," at all.

[Zapbasket]

When I look back at one of my abusers, it just amazes me at how thorough he was at training me and lowering my expectations. It was so subtle and minimal to start and he didn't appear to be smart enough to do what he was doing, and certainly he wasn't doing it intentionally....

 

...

 

Every time I expressed a want or a need, his goal was now to prevent that from happening and to do it in a way I wouldn't notice. That was his rush. Normal people just don't think like that.

 

I needed to "walk away." I needed to make other plans. When he was late calling, I shouldn't have answered the phone. I needed to say: I'm eating at 700 and I'm going to bed at midnight. And I needed to take the phone off the hook. I needed to not be so eager for the crumbs he was giving me and the surprisingly good sex.

 

 

Your experience sounds terrible I'm so sorry you went through that.

 

What struck me, reading your post, is how intelligent and well-put-together you sound, and yet...you ended up in this situation. Not judging you, believe me--just amazed at how insidious this stuff can be, to throw someone like you and so many other folks who post here, who are so smart, off their game. Why do you think you fell into this pattern? And most importantly, looking back, once you realized what was going on, even a little, why were you not able to put your foot down? What in you was holding you back, do you think?