Abuse isn't black and white...or is it?

[Zapbasket]

Many people, and especially men, are very susceptible to inertia. At some point they find it easier to ignore their unhappiness than to do anything about it, because change is scary and denial is a powerful force. I know I've talked myself into staying in less-than-ideal relationships because everything seemed right on paper and there just had to be something wrong with me, if only I'd just work a little harder...

 

Interestingly, I started a thread a while ago on a similar topic--"Have you ever been apathetic in a relationship and regretted it?" I believe it was on that thread that a poster named Fugu said he had been that way in several relationships because he was just at a place in his life where he was afraid to make any decision one way or other, about anything. I guess, taking what you have said here to heart and the responses in that and other threads, in the future, if someone seems irritable and apathetic, I won't wallow in having given them benefit of the doubt that something is going on in their life to freeze them up; I'll just decide that at the root of it, at least in part, is that they're not into me, or perhaps more importantly, are not in a position either to be into me and our relationship or not. I won't stick around feeling hurt and frustrated.

 

Of course what sucks with that is that breaking it off because you feel like someone is just...checked out in general and can't really articulate WHY to you is almost equally confusing and hurtful, or so I can imagine. I guess at least then you're not wasting any more time.

 

The last part I bolded is where in my view you differ from the kind of irritable apathy I've experienced: your response was not to just check out but rather to "work harder." At least in my experience, no one took their malaise as a signal to work harder. What do you think produces this kind of mentality--the one opposite to yours? Is it that then they're just hoping that you end it?

 

This is me just trying to recalibrate where it's "reasonable" to draw the line with people and their treatment of you, especially when you're in an intimate relationship with them and want so badly to give support and benefit of the doubt, but it wars with your rising sense of injustice that the person is so disinvested, seemingly, in your relationship.

[Lady2163]

Your experience sounds terrible I'm so sorry you went through that.

 

What struck me, reading your post, is how intelligent and well-put-together you sound, and yet...you ended up in this situation. Not judging you, believe me--just amazed at how insidious this stuff can be, to throw someone like you and so many other folks who post here, who are so smart, off their game. Why do you think you fell into this pattern? And most importantly, looking back, once you realized what was going on, even a little, why were you not able to put your foot down? What in you was holding you back, do you think?

 

I didn't have the communication skills then that I have now. That possibly has to do with how was raised and the fact I was seduced and groomed by a married man when I was a very naive 16. It was abusive.

 

You know, I love the phrase, 'I know what I bring to the table and I'm not afraid to eat alone.' But back then, I didn't bring a lot to the table. I was 30 something. I was going to college. I was dead broke. I was living in a town where I couldn't find a career and the jobs paid barely above minimum wage. I was probably better looking than I remember it, but still a size 14 or 16, so a large build, but not an extra large build. I just didn't have the resources and choices like I do today.

 

Truth be told, I couldn't afford to go out to eat or to a movie. Breakfast was usually toast. Often I skipped lunch or had a can of soup. The promise of supper at a restaurant was a special treat.

 

I made him a priority. He barely treated me as an afterthought. I just didn't see it then. It's hard to step back and look at things when you're overwhelmed.

 

I wanted a relationship. My biological clock may have been ticking. I didn't want to be single. I wasn't meeting any other candidates. Where ever all those fish are in the ocean, they weren't swimming in my pond. I had no money for hobbies or social activities. Often the Jerk had a sob story to part me from what little cash I had.

 

And I just didn't think like a sociopath. I didn't recognize that things I was saying we're actually making me vulnerable. If I said I missed lunch and was starving at 800 PM, he knew I'd be much hungrier at midnight. One night I was totally exhausted. I'd been packing up my house and I'd done it all alone. The next day was closing day. He hadn't bothered to help me. I called him at 10:00 and told him my entire body hurt, I was worn out emotionally and physically. Of he wanted a ride to his place it was now or he was on his own. He assured me that he and a buddy had a ride.

 

2:45 AM the phone rang. The ride hadn't showed up. I screeched into the phone, "Did you call and wake me up after I had been working all day? After I told you how tired I was?" I hung up on him. He went back to his buddy and said, "She isn't awake yet, she will call back in a few minutes. After 30 minutes his buddy said, "she is not coming to get your sorry ass." Next day his buddy apologized profusely and said he told him not to call me.

 

Again - a normal person hears and responds accordingly when someone is hungry, tired, emotionally drained. A sociopath uses that as an opportunity.

 

I was more worn out and exhausted and stretched too thin than I realized. It can get to a point where you can barely think and you just can't comprehend the latest situation and drama they've created. I never knew what would set him off, which they want you insecure, confused and uncertain. Those also create opportunities.

 

He always had a crisis of the week. Usually, it involved his best friend/ex girlfriend. He always seemed to have numerous drinking pacts. "Oh, John's step daughter had a miscarriage on this day 10 years ago and ever since then we drink a few beers together. Don't tell him I told you, he's tore up about it."

 

I did start ignoring the crisis of the week. I'd refuse to give the money or my car. That started the crisis of the day. Eventually the fights became about "I don't care who died or what is going on in Jane's life. You need to tell her you have plans and take me out to supper like you promised." That would result in him hanging up, spending the night drinking and the silent treatment until he needed something or wanted sex. It was usually ten days.

 

The only way this ended was because he met someone else, cheated and then dumped me. He was stuck since I had told him I'd never worry about any time he spent with any of the female friends he already had. But I had told him if he became close to someone new, we would have a problem. He tried to sneak her in as an old friend, but I had a reliable source who was there when they met.

 

I moved 1500 miles and started over. I hired a private investigator and discovered many whopper lies. I got counseling. And I got revenge.

 

And I carry what he did to me. And I've ended things with men when I see the first warning signs. I don't even point out what bothered me or why I'm ending it. "We just aren't on the same page". I don't regret not continuing with any of the men I didn't give a second chance.

[Zapbasket]

Thanks, Lady 2163. It's amazing that you were able to pull yourself up from that whole mess with that guy. I have a bunch of questions for you, if you don't mind!

 

1. Did you feel moving 1,500 miles away was necessary in order to "start over"?

 

2. What are some of the "warning signs" you see early on that make you bail instantly on getting to know a romantic prospect?

 

3. Looking back, why do you think you weren't able to pull the plug on the relationship yourself, once you realized how much it was depleting you?

 

4. Have you had a happy romantic relationship since then?

 

I'm so sorry for what you went through. But it seems it made you very strong and more aware, rather than permanently downtrodden.

[Zapbasket]

It might be that both of you were wrong for each other. I don't think anyone has to be superior. I think my ex and I are very different emotionally, and we value different things in life. Apparently, he found someone that he gels with enough to marry her. They probably have a different dynamic that works for them.

 

People stay for a lot of reasons. It's hard to leave someone that you are somewhat ambivalent about. My ex said there was nothing badly wrong with me or the relationship, but he just felt wrong about marrying me. He probably just lost feelings over time. He even said it would have been easy to leave if I had done something like cheated on him. I think he wanted to leave for a long time, but he just didn't know how to extricate himself from the relationship. I don't hate him for that. I wish we had both made better choices, but we are ultimately better going our separate ways. I'm happier, and I think he probably is too.

 

This is perhaps a bit off-topic, but sometimes I feel just steeped in...relativism, to where I feel paralyzed. I mean, true, no one has to be "superior" or conversely, "inferior," but when can we say that how a person deals with incompatibilities or what-not speaks to their character and integrity, which in turn places some people higher on the "good-person" continuum? I mean, maybe you and your ex weren't "right" for each other, but I don't think someone who behaves the way your ex did in his relationship with you does so because you're not the "right person" for them. I mean, fundamental incompatibilities in values, personalities, etc. might heighten tension in a relationship, to where people might be more irritable than they normally are, but doesn't how a person treats their relationship partner say a lot about their maturity levels, moral fortitude, character, etc.? Sometimes I feel like we lose the forest for the trees when we refuse to assign "right" or "wrong" at all to things were people and relationships are concerned. And then it ends up being a bit of a cop-out when we wash over everything with, "Oh well, we just weren't right for each other."

 

Can't it be possible that two people could indeed be "right" for each other, whatever that even means, but because one person has more of a penchant for projecting their inner ills onto others, and fewer tools acquired throughout life for handling conflict, the relationship is ruined? We say things like, "I just have to trust that what is meant to be, will be," but where relationships are concerned it sometimes seems like that's just a lazy way to say someone didn't want to put in an effort to make a relationship great.

 

I don't like using celebrities as examples of how to live our private lives since fact and fiction are so hard to parse with them, but...I was struck by a story of how Brad Pitt was feeling frustrated in his marriage with Angelina and she was wilting away, but rather than wallow in apathy or feel that SHE wasn't supporting HIM, he "leaned in"--he showered her with love and caring acts and she blossomed. And as she did so, their relationship deepened, strengthened, etc.

 

As all this pertains to the question of abuse, if everything is relative and no one can be pegged as the "bad guy" (or gal), then how can you spot abusive tendencies or behaviors when they arise? How can you tell yourself that there could be BETTER out there for you, and once you find a relationship that seems like it's working, when it inevitably hits a point where it's uncertain whether it's going to be able to go forward, how can you tell yourself it's worth trying to salvage?

 

As an example, from everything you have said on LS about your ex, bottom line in my book seems to be that he just isn't that nice a guy. He might not be a sociopath or malicious being, and no doubt he had redeeming points to keep your interest and love for so long, but yes, you sound far superior to him, in awareness, heart, and what you have to offer in a relationship. I imagine I would feel the same if he were posting on here as much as you. His vibe just doesn't sound like a very healthy one...and I highly doubt he's complimenting his wife and is "a-ok" with all her quirks. If their relationship "works," perhaps it's because she hasn't awakened to his self-centeredness. And not that it matters, what their relationship is, I'm not saying that--but it does matter to be able to say, "THIS person has X and Y flaws and sometimes can be an azz, but he is able to catch himself, to apologize, and to sincerely try to be better. Whereas THAT person is pretty consistently selfish when it really counts, and not only withdraws / berates / insidiously puts me down when he feels like it, but also is in denial about his behavior." It seems to be able to make such distinctions would make a person more able to know when to hold on despite things not being great all the time, and when it's imperative to let go, because no matter what it's just not going to work.

 

This is all coming from someone who has erred on giving the benefit of the doubt so many times, and rather than having better relationships for it, has ended up time and again being treated badly by people who maybe never really even cared.

[elaine567]

I believe relationships are a two way street, it is two adults batting off one another, so how one reacts is dependent on the other.

So I am not sure how much is inherent "badness" and how much is created in some way by the other's reaction to that "badness".

 

When people "know" they can take advantage, they tend to take advantage - it is human nature.

 

If there is little or no consequence for bad behaviour, and bad behaviour reaps benefits for themselves, then most will choose bad behaviour.

Hence why acting like a doormat, tends not to inspire sympathy, pity or reasonableness, it usually means the boots just get bigger and muddier.

[lucy_in_disguise]

Reading your posts, I always get the sense that you have a need to understand why your exes treated you the way they did. Were they not that into you? Did you bring out the worst in them? Were they broken and incapable of good communication? Was it poor timing?

 

I think it would help if you could steer away from needing these types of answers, and take a simpler approach to evaluating the relationships in your life. Does he make me happy? Are his goals aligned with mine and are we moving in a timeline that is acceptable? Does his behavior violate my boundaries despite my having communicated what is and is not acceptable to me? I think these are all straightforward criteria that your exes probably would have failed. It shouldnt take a ton of work and compromise to satisfy these items, either.

 

It seems like you sometimes have a hard time judging your exes based on actions alone. I understand the desire to seek a higher explanation but the answers to some questions, like why is my ex an ass, dont really add any value. With some of the "answers" you throw out as options, it seems like you want to understand what you did wrong so you could have some semblance of control. The fact is, the only real control you have, is determining who you allow into your life, and what dynamics youre willing to put up with. I think you focus on getting a better understanding of exactly what you want and determing your criteria for what is and is not acceptable to you. Then, be stringent about applying it and dont bother seeking an explanation each time someone fails to meet it.

[Lady2163]

Reading your posts, I always get the sense that you have a need to understand why your exes treated you the way they did. Were they not that into you? Did you bring out the worst in them? Were they broken and incapable of good communication? Was it poor timing?

 

I think it would help if you could steer away from needing these types of answers, and take a simpler approach to evaluating the relationships in your life. Does he make me happy? Are his goals aligned with mine and are we moving in a timeline that is acceptable? Does his behavior violate my boundaries despite my having communicated what is and is not acceptable to me? I think these are all straightforward criteria that your exes probably would have failed. It shouldnt take a ton of work and compromise to satisfy these items, either.

 

It seems like you sometimes have a hard time judging your exes based on actions alone. I understand the desire to seek a higher explanation but the answers to some questions, like why is my ex an ass, dont really add any value. With some of the "answers" you throw out as options, it seems like you want to understand what you did wrong so you could have some semblance of control. The fact is, the only real control you have, is determining who you allow into your life, and what dynamics youre willing to put up with. I think you focus on getting a better understanding of exactly what you want and determing your criteria for what is and is not acceptable to you. Then, be stringent about applying it and dont bother seeking an explanation each time someone fails to meet it.

 

Lucy is right. You can "why" yourself to distraction. That came out of counseling. My counselor said to me, "Even if he tells you he just wanted to use you for sex, money, free rides and didn't care about you at all, what would you say?"

 

"Yes, but why me? All I ever did was be kind and caring and loving to you? Why would you do that to another person?"

 

Even with the worst case scenario, because I was kind, loyal, committed, etc he shouldn't have been a jerk. And it was changing that mindset over time that made the difference.

 

Just about anytime you start a sentence with "Yes, but". You're not really hearing the answer. I see that a LOT on here. Usually it is in the "why cheat" or "why are you an Other". Someone will give valid answers, like the standard "my spouse wouldn't have sex with me." And people will come back with, "Yes, but that's no justification for cheating." Sometimes the "Yes, but " is [umderstood] but it is there.

[Zapbasket]

Reading your posts, I always get the sense that you have a need to understand why your exes treated you the way they did. Were they not that into you? Did you bring out the worst in them? Were they broken and incapable of good communication? Was it poor timing?

 

I think it would help if you could steer away from needing these types of answers, and take a simpler approach to evaluating the relationships in your life. Does he make me happy? Are his goals aligned with mine and are we moving in a timeline that is acceptable? Does his behavior violate my boundaries despite my having communicated what is and is not acceptable to me? I think these are all straightforward criteria that your exes probably would have failed. It shouldnt take a ton of work and compromise to satisfy these items, either.

 

It seems like you sometimes have a hard time judging your exes based on actions alone. I understand the desire to seek a higher explanation but the answers to some questions, like why is my ex an ass, dont really add any value. With some of the "answers" you throw out as options, it seems like you want to understand what you did wrong so you could have some semblance of control. The fact is, the only real control you have, is determining who you allow into your life, and what dynamics youre willing to put up with. I think you focus on getting a better understanding of exactly what you want and determing your criteria for what is and is not acceptable to you. Then, be stringent about applying it and dont bother seeking an explanation each time someone fails to meet it.

 

I want to hang your post on my bathroom mirror, and I may in fact do that. I think what you describe is much easier to do before you have become emotionally invested, so I'm trying to focus on looking at actions and judging from there when I meet people. That way I can nip something in the bud before I'm in deep and feel "obligated" to try to understand where they're coming from that could make them behave in that way.

 

that's the thing that gets me: is that once you're in a relationship with someone; you've said your "I love you's" and all that; when someone acts irritable and jerk-ish, I want to try to understand and to be supportive. Meanwhile their sour behavior is slowly eroding my sense of happiness, and as it goes on I start feeling sad, lonely and unloved. And then it's hard not to internalize it and feel like their behavior is personal to ME and not just how they are. I want to figure out how to stop this cycle so that I don't get stuck in it again. One way is to weed out people early on at signs of irritability, selfishness, immaturity, lack of empathy. But what about once you're in a relationship? How do you find the strength to stick to your guns then?

 

Thank you for this--and good to "see" you on here; it has been a while.

Edited April 21, 2016 by GreenCove

[Zapbasket]

Lucy is right. You can "why" yourself to distraction. That came out of counseling. My counselor said to me, "Even if he tells you he just wanted to use you for sex, money, free rides and didn't care about you at all, what would you say?"

 

Not sure I'm clear on what you were getting at with your post (sorry!!!)...but this leapt out at me because...if only it were so easy! If only someone would just say, "Yeah, actually I don't really love you, but you're okay for now and it's a way for me to get regular sex and companionship." Then it would be OBVIOUS that you need to leave, if you were hoping for a loving relationship. Instead, what happens is that they SAY they love you and want a future with you and want to the relationship to work...but then you see them either purposely sabotaging the relationship by being antagonistic to you, or just not putting in any effort; you see them irritable and sullen with you for no reason; they blame you for everything. So you're left scratching your head--on the one hand, he has said he loves you, but on the other, he acts like this...and it sends a person into a swirl of confusion. I feel in my relationships I have drowned in my own confusion.

 

I suppose the bottom line is: there is NO ACCEPTABLE EXCUSE for being a crashed in a relationship?

[elaine567]

Instead, what happens is that they SAY they love you and want a future with you and want to the relationship to work...but then you see them either purposely sabotaging the relationship by being antagonistic to you, or just not putting in any effort; you see them irritable and sullen with you for no reason; they blame you for everything. So you're left scratching your head--on the one hand, he has said he loves you, but on the other, he acts like this...and it sends a person into a swirl of confusion. I feel in my relationships I have drowned in my own confusion.

 

"Actions speak louder than words" is not a popular saying for no good reason is it? It is repeated often because it is true.

Too many think saying "I love you" is somehow magical, it supersedes all other actions and once uttered gives that person a free pass to do just about anything.

He loves me, so he wasn't really chatting up that girl and kissing her neck, he loves me so he can spend all night out partying and drinking all the time, he loves me so he is allowed to be irritable, rude and sullen, he loves me so he is entitled to argue black is white, he is entitled to lie to me, entitled to go AWOL for days or weeks, entitled to hit me...

Professions of love excuse it all...

 

Words are just words.

[Jabron1]

Authentic abuse is dangerous, terrible, and destructive. And sadly, many men and women are subjected to it.

 

However, the word abuse has become so broad in order to mean so many things, I wonder sometimes if it is starting to mean nothing. A parent telling a child for years they they were a worthless mistake is abuse. A husband who tells a wife "that was stupid" in a loud voice after a bad day at work and in response to something careless is NOT abuse. It just is NOT. A woman wrote a book about abuse a few years ago, and she basically said, "if you feel like it's abuse, then it is." I think this was hogwash, and it really diluted what abuse is and did a disservice to those who ARE actually victims of abuse.

 

Now should the grumpy husband apologize? Probably. Did he abuse his wife? No.

 

 

I completely agree. Some of what people think is 'abuse' is just stupid. This thread is bordering on being a self-indulgent pity party. It's enough to make my head spin.

 

So many people taking on a victim mentality, rather than accept responsibility for themselves. And for those going on about 'introspection', that isn't blaming everyone else for your problems, and calling people 'abusers' because they flaked on you or whatever.

 

Reminds me of something I saw on the news once. They asked a bunch of schoolkids to 'raise your hands, if you've ever been bullied': and most of the kids raised their hands. Then they were asked to 'raise your hands, if you've ever bullied anyone': and no one did.

 

So I guess everyone is a victim in their own little world

[Zapbasket]

I completely agree. Some of what people think is 'abuse' is just stupid. This thread is bordering on being a self-indulgent pity party. It's enough to make my head spin.

 

So many people taking on a victim mentality, rather than accept responsibility for themselves. And for those going on about 'introspection', that isn't blaming everyone else for your problems, and calling people 'abusers' because they flaked on you or whatever.

 

Reminds me of something I saw on the news once. They asked a bunch of schoolkids to 'raise your hands, if you've ever been bullied': and most of the kids raised their hands. Then they were asked to 'raise your hands, if you've ever bullied anyone': and no one did.

 

So I guess everyone is a victim in their own little world

 

I'm confident there's no pity party going on anywhere in this thread, nor is there blame of others for my problems. Nor am I claiming to be a "victim." I do think it's interesting that you don't agree with the slant of this thread, yet you continue to read it. Or worse, you haven't read it, and then come on here assuming you know what it is about.

 

A person saying that she accepted treatment that was extremely hurtful to her starting in childhood (when she had to) and extending through her adulthood is not blaming anyone, nor it is playing a victim, nor is it indulging in self-pity. It's saying, "SH*T, I'VE PUT UP WITH A BUNCH OF CRAP FROM PEOPLE BECAUSE I THOUGHT I HAD TO! AND NOW I SEE I DON'T HAVE TO! SO HOW DO I RETRAIN MYSELF TO BE CLEAR ON WHAT I WILL NOT PUT UP WITH AND TO EXIT THE RELATIONSHIP WHEN STUFF STARTS FEELING BAD?"

 

I am an accomplished, determined, assertive (in some areas), hard-working and resourceful person, Jabron. Everything I've made for myself in my life would not have come if I were sitting around holding a pity-party and thinking myself a victim.

 

Furthermore, the example you gave, about the kids in the classroom? You proved one of the points of this thread exactly. NO ONE will openly admit to being a bully. Not a child, and not an adult. The word "bully" has taken on fearsome monster proportions that no would dare identify themselves with it. But that's EXACTLY why, if you are unfortunate enough to end up in a relationship with someone who takes his self-frustration and fears and insecurities out on others, it can be very hard to see what is going on until your well-being has taken a nose dive. They're usually really nice, charming, outgoing, and fun in public, and friendly to everyone, even helpful and empathetic. But once in the privacy of your home, they are someone completely different: sullen, irascible, taking enjoyment out of getting a rise out of you or putting you down. At first, you wonder what you did "wrong" to "cause" this, since no reasonable person would be so Jekyl Hyde like that. Then begins a long and difficult process of being sure of your perceptions, because no one else sees what you see.

 

I agree with you that the term "abuse" has become so common that people can appropriate it in all kinds of perverse and inaccurate ways. But what is important to take from the thank goodness now very public discourse on abuse is that it has finally enabled people to see the effect being yelled at, ridiculed, put down, berated, etc. (all VERBAL abuse) can have on the recipient over time. Basically it's the idea that how we treat others and how we are treated can make a huge difference in the quality of the lives we lead--"abusers" and "abusees" alike. This is why it's really important to UNDERSTAND (read: not pity, not blame) the dynamics at work in a relationship where one copes with life's troubles by putting others down in order to lift themselves up. It's very common, but that doesn't make it silly or unimportant, and doesn't make the term "abuse" lose its punch (pun intended). It's really about the importance of cultivating relationships in a spirit of mutuality and not "winner/loser"--and about being informed enough to know how to recognize such relationships, how to see your role in cultivating mutuality, and how to respond when you find yourself in a relationship with a person who is more interested in control than mutuality (and for whom mutuality in any form poses a huge threat to his or her world view).

 

So, think what you like, but at least come to that opinion actually being informed and educating yourself about the topic that is actually at hand. If it's not your cup of tea, then kindly don't respond here.

[Jabron1]

I'm confident there's no pity party going on anywhere in this thread, nor is there blame of others for my problems. Nor am I claiming to be a "victim." I do think it's interesting that you don't agree with the slant of this thread, yet you continue to read it. Or worse, you haven't read it, and then come on here assuming you know what it is about.

 

A person saying that she accepted treatment that was extremely hurtful to her starting in childhood (when she had to) and extending through her adulthood is not blaming anyone, nor it is playing a victim, nor is it indulging in self-pity. It's saying, "SH*T, I'VE PUT UP WITH A BUNCH OF CRAP FROM PEOPLE BECAUSE I THOUGHT I HAD TO! AND NOW I SEE I DON'T HAVE TO! SO HOW DO I RETRAIN MYSELF TO BE CLEAR ON WHAT I WILL NOT PUT UP WITH AND TO EXIT THE RELATIONSHIP WHEN STUFF STARTS FEELING BAD?"

 

I am an accomplished, determined, assertive (in some areas), hard-working and resourceful person, Jabron. Everything I've made for myself in my life would not have come if I were sitting around holding a pity-party and thinking myself a victim.

 

Furthermore, the example you gave, about the kids in the classroom? You proved one of the points of this thread exactly. NO ONE will openly admit to being a bully. Not a child, and not an adult. The word "bully" has taken on fearsome monster proportions that no would dare identify themselves with it. But that's EXACTLY why, if you are unfortunate enough to end up in a relationship with someone who takes his self-frustration and fears and insecurities out on others, it can be very hard to see what is going on until your well-being has taken a nose dive. They're usually really nice, charming, outgoing, and fun in public, and friendly to everyone, even helpful and empathetic. But once in the privacy of your home, they are someone completely different: sullen, irascible, taking enjoyment out of getting a rise out of you or putting you down. At first, you wonder what you did "wrong" to "cause" this, since no reasonable person would be so Jekyl Hyde like that. Then begins a long and difficult process of being sure of your perceptions, because no one else sees what you see.

 

I agree with you that the term "abuse" has become so common that people can appropriate it in all kinds of perverse and inaccurate ways. But what is important to take from the thank goodness now very public discourse on abuse is that it has finally enabled people to see the effect being yelled at, ridiculed, put down, berated, etc. (all VERBAL abuse) can have on the recipient over time. Basically it's the idea that how we treat others and how we are treated can make a huge difference in the quality of the lives we lead--"abusers" and "abusees" alike. This is why it's really important to UNDERSTAND (read: not pity, not blame) the dynamics at work in a relationship where one copes with life's troubles by putting others down in order to lift themselves up. It's very common, but that doesn't make it silly or unimportant, and doesn't make the term "abuse" lose its punch (pun intended). It's really about the importance of cultivating relationships in a spirit of mutuality and not "winner/loser"--and about being informed enough to know how to recognize such relationships, how to see your role in cultivating mutuality, and how to respond when you find yourself in a relationship with a person who is more interested in control than mutuality (and for whom mutuality in any form poses a huge threat to his or her world view).

 

So, think what you like, but at least come to that opinion actually being informed and educating yourself about the topic that is actually at hand. If it's not your cup of tea, then kindly don't respond here.

 

Eh, think what you like too. Think I haven't dealt with arseholes too? . That's life. Don't hear me moaning about it.

 

I've yet to hear of any abuse in this thread about 'abuse'. Just stuff you don't like.

 

It's as if you're trying to control other people. The only person you have real control over is yourself. The buck stops with you.

[jen1447]

Eh, think what you like too. Think I haven't dealt with arseholes too? . That's life. Don't hear me moaning about it.

 

I've yet to hear of any abuse in this thread about 'abuse'. Just stuff you don't like.

 

It's as if you're trying to control other people. The only person you have real control over is yourself. The buck stops with you.

 

Are you serious? If you really think that after reading GC's OP, you're woefully uninformed. Fortunately the criminal justice system disagrees with you.

 

Barging into a thread where abuse victims are discussing abuse to tell them they haven't been abused .... stay classy J-Bro.

 

But as therapy has crumbled more of my walls, it finally became starkly clear to me: my house growing up was crazy. I was afraid of my stepfather. Every day there was some strife that mostly came out of a totally innocent and even pleasant interaction. He constantly looked for something I did wrong, and then it wasn't about just correcting me, but goading me--for example, I had weekly room inspections, which is fair; kids should be expected to have a clean room; but instead of walking through my room and saying, "Looks good" or, "See if you can do a better job next time with organizing your papers / books / fill-in-the-blank," my stepfather made the room inspections about control, not cleanliness. He'd enter my room and if there was a tiny piece of paper, say, on the floor, he'd stop in from of it, stare, point, and in this eerie, quiet voice would say, "What's this?" "A piece of paper," I'd answer. "Why is it here?" "I don't know. I guess it fell there." "It fell," he'd echo with a sneer. And on, and on. This kind of thing was a daily occurrence, to the point that when the school day ended, I sometimes broke out into hives at the idea of having to go home. He worked from home, so there never was a respite.

 

 

Child Abuse: Definition

 

Child abuse is broadly defined in many states as any type of cruelty inflicted upon a child, including mental abuse, physical harm, neglect, and sexual abuse or exploitation. The specific crimes charged in instances of child abuse can include assault and battery. In many states, certain individuals and caregivers are required by law to report suspected child abuse. Nevertheless, unfortunately, many cases of child abuse go unreported.

 

A child who has been abused or neglected may experience a range of problems, such as relationship difficulties, lack of trust of adults, emotional outbursts (or retreat), low performance at school, depression, anxiety, and anger.

 

The Elements of a Child Abuse Charge

 

As noted above, child abuse is a crime that encompasses a variety of behaviors involving physical, emotional, or sexual mistreatment or neglect upon a child. State child abuse laws define child abuse as any act (or failure to act) that:

 

1. Results in imminent risk or serious harm to a child's health and welfare due to physical, emotional, or sexual abuse;
   
2. affects a child (typically under the age of 18);
   
3. by a parent or caregiver who is responsible for the child's welfare.
   

In most states, the harm must have been inflicted by non-accidental means. This includes intentional acts, actions that were careless (such as, allowing a known sexual offender or known abuser to be with a child alone), and acts of negligence (such as, leaving a child under a certain age at home alone). Also, the "harm" inflicted upon a child need not be actual, but may include "threats" or "risks of imminent harm".

 

In addition to state child abuse laws, all states have child protective services (CPS) agencies that investigate reports of abuse and neglect of children in a home. CPS also serves to place children who have been abused or neglected in safer homes, either through adoption or foster care.

 

Typical defenses include accident, wrongful accusations, and a parent's right to discipline.

 

 

- See more at: Child Abuse Overview - FindLaw

[Liam1]

 

I guess what I'm asking is, even with the "nice times," were these still abusive relationships? And was I implicated in that for getting angry at my stepfather, my mother, and my boyfriends after one of their "episodes" with me? I'd end up furious once my confusion and overall stupefaction regarding the interaction wore off. I'd yell at them, tell the to stop it, and / or cry, and they they'd ALL, my mother included, say, "Look at you and your bad temper," and they'd say I was the problem, not them. I would then feel guilty and ashamed, and round and round and round it would go.

 

But I love my mom, and my exes weren't bad people--at least two of the three of them weren't. So why did they act that way with me? Was it abuse?

 

Intellectually there's no debate in my mind--yes, it was abuse. But emotionally I'm still "confused," because I remember the loving times,.

 

I have not been able to read the entire thread. I am working and reading in between. So, maybe someone already answered your question.

 

What you describe sounds like "ambient abuse" I do not think we can post links here but You can google that term and a lot of sites will come up.

 

Here is an excerpt from one:

 

Ambient abusers are classic nit-pickers who redirect attention away from their own abusive behavior by engaging in insidious forms of abuse that are not clearly recognizable by the general public as abusive behavior. For example, ambient abusers often publicly shame their targets for insignificant errors as a deflective tactic to keep others from looking at the abuser’s behavior. When questioned about their own behavior they use the following phrases to gain the silence and compliance from their targets:

 

 

“I can’t talk you to you when you get like this…” (Makes their target sound unreasonable and puts the responsibility entirely on the target.)

“After everything that I’ve done for you…” (Routinely tries to buy the targets willingness to comply through gifts and favors only to turn around and, when convenient, demand “repayment.”)

 

 

“How can you be so selfish…” (Usually said when they meet resistance at getting their own way.)

 

 

“If you loved me you would [xyz]…” (Classic coercive tactic.)

“Can’t you see how you’re hurting me…” (Which is usually said when confronted about their own abusive behavior.)

 

 

Psychotic personalities very often hide in plain sight and seek refuge behind those persons whom they know can be easily controlled. The psychological, emotional, and physical abuser knows how to exploit others for their own deceitful gain. These abusive persons – who very often are women – will “gaslight” their victims relentlessly and will also flat-out deny all abusive behaviors even in the face of physical evidence.

 

 

All that is needed for the abuser to continue without consequence is the buy-in and silence of those who know the truth and yet say nothing.

 

 

Plainly stated, family members, friends, pastors, counselors, teachers, and any other persons that know of and/or witness abuse then do nothing to stop it are complicit in its perpetration. Make no mistake in understanding that psychological aggression is, in fact, a form of violence which leaves no physical scars making ambient abuse both insidious and pervasive.

[Jabron1]

Are you serious? If you really think that after reading GC's OP, you're woefully uninformed. Fortunately the criminal justice system disagrees with you.

 

If you feel it's a criminal matter, you go to the police.

 

Barging into a thread where abuse victims are discussing abuse to tell them they haven't been abused .... stay classy J-Bro.

 

My mistake for being sensible. Carry on

[Zapbasket]

Eh, think what you like too. Think I haven't dealt with arseholes too? . That's life. Don't hear me moaning about it.

 

I've yet to hear of any abuse in this thread about 'abuse'. Just stuff you don't like.

 

It's as if you're trying to control other people. The only person you have real control over is yourself. The buck stops with you.

 

Let me guess: someone in your life told you to "quit yer whinin'" early on when you got upset about something.

 

And here's a mental conundrum: how can you control your self when you don't know yourself? If the buck stops with you, then it's all the more imperative that you look at how you came to be who you are, no? Otherwise you're just an automaton, shoving your way through life on willful ignorance.

 

As I pointed out to you earlier, perhaps your having to deal with arseholes, early in your life, has made you the "tough-guy" you present here on LS as a whole. Seeking understanding isn't "moaning," but I've experienced many people who see any kind of admission of being hurt or vulnerable to being hurt as an unacceptable weakness. They don't tolerate it in themselves, which means they don't tolerate it in others. Perhaps this applies to you. If so, I'm sorry. My mother is this way and it's a very rigid way to be, and detrimental both to her as well as to the people around her with their human flaws.

 

As for stuff in this thread not being "abuse," well, what I started this thread with was my family dynamics growing up. Perhaps you have not spent much or any time studying any psychology, or not with good teachers. What my stepfather did WAS abuse. There is much more to that story than I could ever share at once on LS or would want to, but he was so abusive that my mother lost several friends over it, because they could no longer support her being with a man who treated her or her daughter the way he did. The Division of Youth and Family Services was called to our home twice. We got kicked off a tennis court once because some people next to us noticed that my step-dad was actively trying to hit me with the ball--he was successful only when I had my back turned!

 

But since what's tripping you up is the labeling of my stepfather's behavior, let's for now say the label doesn't matter. Let's say it's not abuse; let's say he was just a strict step-parent. No right or wrong being pointed his way. All I'm trying to do is to understand how being raised in a particularly strict home influenced some of my perceptions--about work and accomplishments, about my self-worth, and especially about what I enter relationships--work, romantic, friendship--expecting of others. No more, no less. I'm not blaming my step-father; I'm trying to understand the nature of the relationship I had with him. I'm not trying to dwell on the past by seeking this understanding; rather, I'm trying to break myself free of any hold this part of my past has on my present. Something has proven amiss in my relationships, and it could be: because I have faulty expectations of people, because I choose the wrong people to have relationships with, or some combination of the two. Our expectations of people, as well as the kind of people we gravitate to, are heavily shaped by our primary caregivers. This is Psych 101. If you want to grow into a full adult, awake and aware, at some point you have to take a look at how you came to be who you are.

 

If you can't see that, then I don't think we really have grounds for further conversation on this topic, Jabron. I'm very interested in why you continue to read and post to this thread, since its very premise is so abhorrent to you.

[jen1447]

If you feel it's a criminal matter, you go to the police.

 

What does that have to do with anything? You wrongly stated that abuse isn't abuse, I corrected the record with facts from a reputable source. That was the discussion, not "what to do if you think sth is a criminal matter." (Nevermind the fact that most children don't have the psychological wherewithal to rat out their parents to what they perceive to be outsiders.)

 

My mistake for being sensible. Carry on

 

Barging into a thread about abuse and telling abuse victims they haven't been abused is "sensible" how exactly? You know you can't just say random things and have them carry weight, right?

[mellywell]

Just to clarify, what I wrote about abuse and the misuse of the word was not intended to apply to child abuse. Children are underage, innocent, and dependent. It's a whole different ballgame.

 

But I have heard grown women (and men) call a raised voice, a bad mood, even "ghosting" abusive. Not calling someone you went on dates with is not abusive. Getting frustrated with someone who is being frustrating and raising your voice in that one specific instance is not abuse. Saying "shut up" one day when it's been an awful day and you have a headache isn't abuse.

 

And to be an abuser, a person must exhibit a PATTERN of abuse. When I was around 10, i used to take snack into my room and read. Problem was, I had a bad habit of not taking the dishes and glasses back to the kitchen. My dad (who I later learned was going through a terrible time at his job) came in, griped about the dishes, and started stacking them to take them out of my room. He tripped on some of the clutter, and red fruit punch went flying all over the carpet. He said loudly something like "this is what happens when you're a slob! Get up and clean that up!" and he yanked back the covers (I was reading in bed).

 

My dad was not an abuser. He was a frustrated parent whose daughter needed a lesson in neatness.

 

It sounds like the OP DID in fact suffer abuse, but there is a whole movement of women in particular that seem to be just waiting for someone (men in particular) to look sideways so they can point and shout "Abuse!"

 

It, in my opinion, is a slap in the fact to people like the OP who really WERE abused growing up. I mean, if my leg gets chopped off, it;s gonna tick me off if you say, "I know how you feel. Look at this paper cut!"

[Zapbasket]

What does that have to do with anything? You wrongly stated that abuse isn't abuse, I corrected the record with facts from a reputable source. That was the discussion, not "what to do if you think sth is a criminal matter." (Nevermind the fact that most children don't have the psychological wherewithal to rat out their parents to what they perceive to be outsiders.)

 

 

 

Barging into a thread about abuse and telling abuse victims they haven't been abused is "sensible" how exactly? You know you can't just say random things and have them carry weight, right?

 

It's okay, Jen. In one sense, it's good Jabron has posted here, since that attitude is exactly what you fear encountering when you finally stop telling YOURSELF to stop "whining," that "it wasn't that big a deal" and that "I should just be able to get over it."

 

I also think he's confused about the meaning of the word "abuse." Abuse comprises a huge continuum. On one end is someone snapping at his partner after a bad day at work. On the far other end is someone giving his partner two black eyes and broken ribs because she bought skim milk instead of whole. That far end absolutely is criminal, and subject to criminal charges. The opposite end is where it gets complicated: We all snap at or are irritable with loved ones--our partners, our children--from time to time. That's not necessarily "abuse." In that moment, the behavior is "abusive," but we'd all laugh if someone said, "You're abusing me," because we snapped at someone. What makes that behavior "abusive" is if it occurs on a consistent basis, and especially if it occurs with put-downs, mean jokes in the face of the other person protesting that it's not funny, emotional neglect. We can then say that that partner is "abusive," but no, he or she can't be charged with a crime. What's important is that the person on the receiving end of this consistent treatment realize that she doesn't have to put up with it. Unfortunately, people who grew up with this kind of treatment from their primary caregivers are so used to this as the "norm," that they don't realize they could be in a relationship where their feelings are respected.

 

This is that kind of area I'm talking about here. Yes, my stepfather was abusive. I'm not open to any debate about that and anyone who could read my original post and say, "That wasn't abuse," is probably either an abuser or was similarly abused themselves.

 

As an adult, however, I've been in work relationships, friendships, and romantic relationships where I've consistently felt bad and couldn't quite put my finger on why. Especially after my most recent romantic relationship ended--the relationship that had me in a constant tailspin of discomfort, hurt, confusion--I started realizing that I have routinely accepted behavior that really isn't acceptable. But the motivation for this thread is that, after having accepted bad behavior for so long, I started telling msyelf that I "should" accept it, and so the feeling of loathing how I was being treated created all kinds of dissonance in me, because I didn't know what to believe. I've been posting a lot of threads lately about boundaries and such, because I'm trying very hard in every area of my life to retrain what I deem acceptable behavior in a relationship. THAT is the intended topic of this thread.

 

And being able to label some behaviors as "abuse" helps a person gain some clarity, I believe, on the nature of the relationship they were in. I grew up believing my household was normal, that my parents were just strict, and that I must be very "bad" to deserve getting yelled at and punished every day. Even on those times when the Division of Youth and Family Services came to our house, I was so conditioned to believe what was going on was normal that I laughed at the fact that they were there. I also desperately prayed that the little woman who showed up at our door would see through my stepfather's unctuous charm, and was crestfallen when he singlehandedly convinced her that nothing was wrong. All kinds of confused, contradictory things were going on in my mind, and I think only NOW am I getting clear on the nature of what I was, in fact, dealing with. this is a time when a label like "abuse" is not only appropriate, but also a real therapeutic help.

[wmacbride]

OP,

 

It really doesn't matter if it's labeled as abuse or not, as you know how you were treated and it hurt you.

 

It's good that you have been able to recognize the role this has played in your adult life and that you are taking steps to understand how it can affect your decision making, relationships, etc.

 

This is so important, especially fi you have children of your own. Some people who were treated badly by their own parents go on to repeat the pattern with their own children so if you can recognize that and break the cycle, it doesn't get passed to the next generation.

[jen1447]

And being able to label some behaviors as "abuse" helps a person gain some clarity, I believe, on the nature of the relationship they were in. I grew up believing my household was normal, that my parents were just strict, and that I must be very "bad" to deserve getting yelled at and punished every day. Even on those times when the Division of Youth and Family Services came to our house, I was so conditioned to believe what was going on was normal that I laughed at the fact that they were there. I also desperately prayed that the little woman who showed up at our door would see through my stepfather's unctuous charm, and was crestfallen when he singlehandedly convinced her that nothing was wrong. All kinds of confused, contradictory things were going on in my mind, and I think only NOW am I getting clear on the nature of what I was, in fact, dealing with. this is a time when a label like "abuse" is not only appropriate, but also a real therapeutic help.

 

Children are especially vulnerable to that but even adults can be susceptible, and not just domestic partners. I know of a vulnerable adult woman who was somehow a resident relative to another 'ruler of the roost' type woman who routinely abused her, psychologically and physically. The police were out a few times due to reports of neighbors etc., but like your step dad this woman could apparently put on a convincing act when need be. More sadly, the abused woman would steadfastly deny that anything bad was happening when they'd ask her directly. No doubt brainwashed into thinking she was somehow wrong and deserving of the abuse, but also tricked into thinking the abuser had a greater reach than she really did and could always 'get' her any time she wanted. She also probably had a general (irrational) lack of faith that even the authorities could do anything to help her. Sad.

[Zapbasket]

Children are especially vulnerable to that but even adults can be susceptible, and not just domestic partners. I know of a vulnerable adult woman who was somehow a resident relative to another 'ruler of the roost' type woman who routinely abused her, psychologically and physically. The police were out a few times due to reports of neighbors etc., but like your step dad this woman could apparently put on a convincing act when need be. More sadly, the abused woman would steadfastly deny that anything bad was happening when they'd ask her directly. No doubt brainwashed into thinking she was somehow wrong and deserving of the abuse, but also tricked into thinking the abuser had a greater reach than she really did and could always 'get' her any time she wanted. She also probably had a general (irrational) lack of faith that even the authorities could do anything to help her. Sad.

 

So true that even in adulthood you can be susceptible to abuse. Basically, being treated badly over a long period of time can really start to erode you--mentally, physically, emotionally. I remember one job I had when I first moved where I live now, the CEO and her daughter were so mean to me that after a while I would come home from work and have no energy for anything save for wrapping myself in a blanket and curling up into a ball on my couch. At that point, I knew I had to quit. Luckily I was able to as I had another job to fall back on.

 

This same confusion persists regarding the last romantic relationship I was in. It's much less than it was, but still, it sits there: I loved him so much, and loved his family and had many good times with all of them where I felt, "I belong here; this is where I belong." But all along, I didn't like how my boyfriend treated me. I always had this niggling feeling that something wasn't right and I chose time and again to ignore it. I look back and see I should have ended it in the first couple of months, when those bad behaviors (put-downs disguised as "teasing," discounting my feelings, deliberate antagonism) first showed up.

 

It confuses me now that I can see that I should have left early on, and at the same time still feel love for him. And still remember the good in our relationship. It's such a huge range of emotions and I wonder whether that would be less if I had come into all this with better boundaries?

[Jabron1]

In times of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

 

I'm very interested in why you continue to read and post to this thread

 

I sometimes check threads that I have posted in.

 

What does that have to do with anything? You wrongly stated that abuse isn't abuse,

 

You brought up one point of many. Selective to the point you wanted to make.

 

I corrected the record with facts from a reputable source. That was the discussion,

 

That's your frame - not the discussion as a whole. I choose not to enter it.

 

I was agreeing with another poster.

 

not "what to do if you think sth is a criminal matter." (Nevermind the fact that most children don't have the psychological wherewithal to rat out their parents to what they perceive to be outsiders.)

 

It's a criminal matter now.

 

 

Barging into a thread about abuse and telling abuse victims they haven't been abused is "sensible" how exactly? You know you can't just say random things and have them carry weight, right?

 

You keep using the verb 'barge'. Interesting.

 

I'll just say that people only have the power over you, going forward, that you give them. That will be my 'final thought'.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Jabron1

[Lady2163]

Physical abuse is easy to define. Sexual abuse is a bit trickier, but still possible.

 

Mental and emotional abuse is harder.

 

I mentioned I was and am largely a non drinker. And I was dating an alcoholic. One time we were at the bar and he was nagging on me to do a shot. I wasn't interested. I declined. I went to the bathroom and when a came back there's a shot of tequila and a shot of his choice.

 

Now, that's not abuse, that's manipulation.

 

This happened several times. One night when I got to the bar, I told the bartender, "Don't let jerk buy me a drink or shot when I'm in the bathroom or have my backed turned. He started up again. I declined, had had a long day and had another one tomorrow. I told him no. I think I went to do something (I was an officer in the club hierarchy). When I came back, there sits the shot. I looked at the bartender. She pointed to jerk and said, "I told him, but he insisted!" I asked him if he wanted it. No. I put the shot in the well (that's a ledge on a bar where you put your empty glasses or payment) and told the bartender I wasn't going to drink it.

 

None of that is abuse. What was abuse was the hours of verbal vitriol I endured.

 

GC, you don't understand what I'm saying about "why" being detrimental.

 

You may never get the answers you want. Why was your boss and daughter nasty to you, even though you were probably busting your ass? Maybe they are just petty, jealous jerks. Even if they told you that, can you accept that or would you still be stuck with, "But, why? I was one of your best earners? Why would you do something detrimental to yourself in the end?"

 

I asked "why" a lot. I had an army buddy, not a sexual buddy and I groused to him about the jerk. Why would he target me when he could probably have any other woman in the bar? Someone more compatible, someone who drank, someone who needed him for his money? My buddy was a bit of a player and his response? "But there's no challenge, there." I was confused.

 

He said something to the effect: Every time he got you to do something you didn't want to do, he scored a victory. Every time he was able to manipulate you into calling him, manipulate you into wasting your evening waiting for him, every time he got you to drink, every time he made you break your lowest limit, he was winning. Every time he was able to say nasty stuff to you, break up with you and then reel you back in, that was the challenge. Another bar rat would be boring and too easy to score points."

 

It took me a long time to accept the why. I was a nice girl. I was someone who was going places. He was an alcoholic - and addict. He was a sociopath and narcissist. Life was a bit boring.

 

Don't get hung up on the why of the past. Set your limits, know your limits, know how to respond when limits are approached on, work on different scenarios (a counselor helps), continue reading and writing to improve vocabulary. Toastmasters?

 

But avoid discussing it with people you are dating and getting to know.

 

Personally, I probably will never tell another man in my real life I was groomed by a MM when I was a teenager. I don't get into examples and details about my exH. I'm able to spot the difference between a social drinker and an alcoholic pretty early on.