No wonder (some) men struggle

[lana-banana]

No, if there was more smarter women who planned out their lives (ie school/career now or later, get a husband who isn't a lazy and cheap bum, don't have ten kids when we can barely afford one, drive car till wheels fall off instead of new car every three years), then they wouldn't be forced to be a working mom trying to juggle a full time job and a husband and kid.

 

But...this is exactly what is happening. In the United States, birthrates are down. Average children per family are down. People are saving money first and marrying later.

 

Why are you so incensed about a problem that doesn't exist?

[xxoo]

For me, what defines masculinity most is the term "provider". Not provider in the sense "he pays for everything" but more "he makes sure everyone around him is safe, is well". He cares for others.

 

My dad is like that and the men I've fallen for have all showcased this capacity to provide for others, for their community, for their loved ones. The women I know who are in happy relationships are with men who care about their happiness and wellbeing.

 

I think of it as a form of strength.

 

Yes, this is exactly it for me. It's not about money or the right job, but more a belief that he can and will take care of whatever needs to be taken care of. The two major factors are that he shows the ability and the motivation to "provide" in this way. It has to come from the heart.

 

Some guys have the ability, but not the heart. Others have the heart, but not the ability. Both = and

[Buddhist]

I think the thing is that a lot of men don't know what the solutions are. They don't know what modern women want from them and when they ask it just seems to make them more confused. There are so many contradictory messages.

 

That's because most women do not in fact know what they want nor need from a relationship. Most people, both genders included, just have a string of failed relationships to guide us into what we don't want. But still no idea about what it is that we are truly seeking. And then there's this thing that what we want or desire, may not in fact lead to the condition of happiness or joy, because it's not actually what we need.

 

Once upon a time I thought I wanted to be married, have a lifetime partnership. That was of course until I started reliving the same circumstances over and over again in my relationships. Clearly, no matter what I sought in relationships, and how often I changed those parameters, I still ended up in disappointment. That's when I came to the realisation that all bets are now off. I actually had zero idea about what a good relationship was.

 

It isn't about negotiating compromises and twisting ourselves into a metaphorical pretzel in a transactional attitude. I'll give you this if you promise to give me that...Therein lies the entire problem. Humanity has no blueprint or idea for what relating to another person on a non-transactional basis is. We are therefore fumbling around blind hoping to one day fall into a hole that takes us somewhere other than where we have been.

[Woggle]

I don't doubt that some women get stuck with most of the labor but when I have talked to men in unhappy marriages and divorced men the main thing I hear is that no matter what he does for it is never enough. These guys would move heaven and earth to make their wives happy and yet are met with contempt and disdain and have no idea what to do. I remember in my first marriage nothing I ever did was good enough for her and I sure did almost all the labor, earned all the money and whatever emotional labor is I sure I did that as well. If men knew how to actually make women happy most of us would do it.

[Gloria25]

But...this is exactly what is happening. In the United States, birthrates are down. Average children per family are down. People are saving money first and marrying later.

 

Why are you so incensed about a problem that doesn't exist?

 

Then if there's no problem, why are working mothers upset that they gotta come home and actually "mother/parent" and "nurture"? Why are they too tired for sex and to look nice for their man? How many households actually have a homecooked meal (Mon thru Fri) - where the whole family can sit around and bond? How come kids are dumped off at relatives/daycare instead of being raised by their parents? Why do in laws have to come in and help with the bills? Why are women having to pay for their own engagement ring? Why is there alarming rates of childhood depression?

 

Sounds like with all this "liberation" and "rights' all women have been turned into is fools who pay half of some guy's bills.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Gloria25

[Gloria25]

My mother had a husband, a business and six kids. Being a wife and mother does not mean a woman does all of the work. My mother has something called leadership skills. She taught us what to do, scheduled our tasks, assigned our tasks, and then followed up to make sure they were done to her standards which were very high. Much of that stuff was delegated to me to make sure it got done because I was the oldest child.

 

Being the leader of the household doesn't mean you do all of the work. Just as being the owner of a business doesn't mean you do all of the work. Any woman doing all of the work in her house when she has a husband and kids is not smart.

 

We were cleaning up our own messes as young as two and three years old. If you're old enough to make a mess, you're old enough to clean it up. That's how I was raised.

 

Well, women aren't prepped for marriage anymore. I and my mum grew up where "home economics" was an actual school course.

 

Also, mothers and fathers don't teach their kids anything either.

 

Then, no premarital counseling. They just marry off of "perceived abilities" that they think their spouse-to-be has.

 

Like my neighbor. Ideal wife and mother requirements? Must be able to fart in front of him and smell his farts and must eat a greasy hamburger in front of him...the idiot learned more about family and being a husband by trolling online and following my ideals in barely three years than what his parents will ever teach him. All they do ia swoop in to rescue him/her - instead of teaching them to cut the umbilical cord and be an independent entity. How can you have the nerve to call yourselves husband/wife/parents, if your parents are holding your hand - especially in your 30's? No shame now a fays, everyone has some warped idea of what marriage and family is to them - and - must be accepted by society.

 

My brother and wife? The other day they told us thar they've been planning their recent kid for like two years? Planning? Then how the f did me having to put a roof over their heads and arrange for birth/medical care come about? I wasn't part of this "planning".

 

I think my period is around the corner cuz I'm on fire.

[lana-banana]

Then if there's no problem, why are working mothers upset that they gotta come home and actually "mother/parent" and "nurture"?

 

"Upset"? No mother is "upset" she has to be a mother. As to why a woman might come home after a hard day feeling stressed and overwhelmed, well, who doesn't?

 

Why are they too tired for sex and to look nice for their man? How many households actually have a homecooked meal (Mon thru Fri) - where the whole family can sit around and bond?

 

I don't know, and I daresay you don't know either. You are however content to imagine some epidemic of children without homecooked meals and poor men deprived of sex. Once again you're railing about a problem you've never experienced. Hell, you don't even understand it.

 

How come kids are dumped off at relatives/daycare instead of being raised by their parents? Why do in laws have to come in and help with the bills? Why are women having to pay for their own engagement ring? Why is there alarming rates of childhood depression?

 

Because the vast majority of couples can't afford to raise children on a single salary? Because interest and cost of living are rising at levels not commensurate with the rise in incomes? I don't know why some women have to pay for their own engagement rings but who cares if that's what works for them? Didn't we already address the "alarming rates of childhood depression" several pages ago?

 

Sounds like with all this "liberation" and "rights' all women have been turned into is fools who pay half of some guy's bills.

 

Women's liberation did not directly or even indirectly lead to the seismic changes in the global economy that brought us where we are today. The world is far more complicated than that.

 

Gloria, I think you see misery everywhere because you choose to immerse yourself in it, and it validates your own isolation. Spend a couple hours a day on TheKnot or WeddingWire and look through the thousands of posts by frazzled but happy brides (and, often, their just as happy and frazzled mothers and grandmothers). Read an uplifting story about a lasting marriage. Talk to a couple whose relationship you actually respect. The world is full of healthy couples who love each other dearly and you'd see them if you could just be bothered to look.

[JohnAdams]

Then if there's no problem, why are working mothers upset that they gotta come home and actually "mother/parent" and "nurture"? Why are they too tired for sex and to look nice for their man? How many households actually have a homecooked meal (Mon thru Fri) - where the whole family can sit around and bond? How come kids are dumped off at relatives/daycare instead of being raised by their parents? Why do in laws have to come in and help with the bills? Why are women having to pay for their own engagement ring? Why is there alarming rates of childhood depression?

 

Sounds like with all this "liberation" and "rights' all women have been turned into is fools who pay half of some guy's bills.

 

I can only answer on my own marriage, but, have been married long enough to have a good idea.

 

 

why are working mothers upset that they gotta come home and actually "mother/parent" and "nurture"?

 

My wife has been fortunate enough to always have a job where she could leave for work after the kids leave for school. She did not work while they were pre-schoolers. There was never no pressure for her to work, but, her income was a big help in meeting our bills.

 

Why are they too tired for sex and to look nice for their man?

 

I have never in 44 years encountered this situation. I have never been refused sex. She has always looked drop dead gorgeous.

How many households actually have a homecooked meal (Mon thru Fri) - where the whole family can sit around and bond?

 

Our entire marriage, when I got home from work, dinner was on the table and we sat down with the kids, prayed, and had a nice family dinner.

 

How come kids are dumped off at relatives/daycare instead of being raised by their parents?

 

This never occurred.

 

Why do in laws have to come in and help with the bills?

 

We have never received a penny from my in-laws or my parents. We have never taken a penny from any relative.

 

Why are women having to pay for their own engagement ring?

 

I paid for my wife's engagement ring and several years later bought her a "big" rock to replace the original ring.

 

Why is there alarming rates of childhood depression?

 

Our children were raised in a loving home and never had depression.

[mrldii]

...Now that women work, the lines are blurred. Men no longer have a real "purpose"...

 

Sure they do. Their purpose is to "be a good mate". Just like the *females* purpose.

 

What defines "a good mate" is left up to the two people involved.

 

 

Which, of course, brings this thread full-circle: *Nowadays*, if some men can't adapt and respond positively to today's social mores and social pressures as they pertain to relationships and [the need for] two-earner households, they are going to struggle.

[Aniela]

Nah.....

 

But Ive seen women do a hell of a lot more than swoon over other attributes in a man that have absolutely nothing to do with cleaning or cooking....

 

TFY

 

And I've seen men swoon over things about women, that have nothing to do with them being a good wife and mother.

[Aniela]

Women who want Beta males do exist, they're the "exception" - not the rule. Usually they want a weaker man that they can manipulate and control.

 

They do at first but the marriages I see lasting are the ones where the man has pretty much ignored what society has tried to turn men into the past couples of decades. The ones who said no and kept being a masculine man are the ones who are doing well. The ones who followed what society says the new man should be and then had it blow up in their face are the ones who are disillusioned. This is not to say that men shouldn't cook, clean and do all that stuff because that is a simple part of being an adult but have some self respect and pride. Don't be some puppy desperate to please the queen. That is what a lot of married men today are like and it only inspires contempt in women. The independent and strong women actually tend to be drawn to men who can out alpha them. I have seen it in action.

 

 

My dad - one of the men I thought of (as mum appreciates what he does) is not a "beta male" he's a considerate MAN. He's doing the dishes, as I type. He took care of my mother when she couldn't get out of bed by herself, or walk. He knows how to cook, and when he was in the Air Force, they taught him how to sew! He's been taking care of himself from a young age, and I respect him - the product of one the marriages you (Gloria) think should be mainstream, where both of his parents were miserable.

 

Mum has told dad what a good man he is, and so have I. A good man isn't one who throws around his weight, and controls women. He's never had an affair, and he really loves his family.

 

I was thinking about a blog I found eight years ago, written by someone who was cheating. That had links to other blogs all written by cheaters, men and women alike - one man who had a wife at home with a newborn baby, complaining about the lack of sex (they had three children), so he was having sex with prostitutes at the office. He considered his office an escape from the life he helped to create at home. Do you think his wife ever got an escape? It wasn't only her choice to have them.

 

I think this belongs in Gloria's thread. Sorry, Kamille!

Edited May 6, 2016 by Aniela

[scorpiogirl]

Then if there's no problem, why are working mothers upset that they gotta come home and actually "mother/parent" and "nurture"? Why are they too tired for sex and to look nice for their man? How many households actually have a homecooked meal (Mon thru Fri) - where the whole family can sit around and bond? How come kids are dumped off at relatives/daycare instead of being raised by their parents? Why do in laws have to come in and help with the bills? Why are women having to pay for their own engagement ring? Why is there alarming rates of childhood depression?

 

Sounds like with all this "liberation" and "rights' all women have been turned into is fools who pay half of some guy's bills.

 

I really do hope that you find the man of your dreams to marry. And that he is exactly what you want. A man who expects you to fill a "traditional" role that you crave. And that he doesn't deviate from being a "traditional" man.

You cannot deviate even once from this standard that you set for others. And I look forward to hearing your thoughts on marriage once you actually have that husband who expects you to have dinner on the table when he comes home. Then you won't ever be too tired for sex said nice its your duty and he will never have anything to complain about in the bedroom- acrobatics are your forte I'm guessing. He won't be able to believe his luck.

 

So please do come and tell us how it goes.

[wmacbride]

That type of masculinity you refer to that is considered instinctively attractive by men amongst themselves, I would wager.

 

For instance, where I live, there are plenty of SAHDs who are considered an example of masculinity, self-assurance and security by their wives (and their friends!!) because they're not the type to feel threatened by appearances and the rumour-mill.

 

My husband is great with our kids, and would have loved to have been a stay at home dad if our finances would have permitted it.

 

He is also very masculine. in his case, the masculinity doe snot equate to being a jerk.

[wmacbride]

Crazy thought here, but what if fathers were expected to take time off work to take care of children? It's happening more and more in families where women are the highest income earners... More studies must be done.

 

Our government ( Canada) just extended benefits so more fathers can choose to stay at home if they want to.

 

As much as I dislike our PM , at least he got that one thing right.

[wmacbride]

Thank you! ! I

 

Too many "modern" women out there who lothe nurturing, but wanna pop out a kid and put a ring on their finger so society can worship them and/or a husband and a kid is just another "accessory" or "thing on a list of things to do" in her life.

 

I know what it takes to be a mother and a wife. Do I really want it? No. I like getting up, coming/going when I want. I'm not sharing my assets with no guy. At least I'm honest about me and who I am.

 

Sorry, but you have no idea what it's like to be a married mother, as you have never been one, and watching others do it really provides nothing but an opinion.

 

I will agree with you on one thing though. In many cases, there is a stigma against a mother or father who chooses to stay home.

 

I was a stay at home mother for a lot of years, and still stay at home even though I work, as I am able to do so from home.

 

There is almost a secret shame about saying you are a stay at home parent. When you say that you are , you get odd looks and the assumption that you are uneducated, too lazy to go out and work, etc. Some think that all you do all day is sit at home watching soaps and filling up your face from the bon bon dish.

 

The worst ones for that attitude were men. I got comments about how I should be out contributing financially to the family, etc.

 

It seems that no matter what a woman does, someone will tell her she is doing it wrong. You get the crowd who feel that a woman should stay at home and raise her family. She should work herself to the bone at tasks society places little to value on, other than lip service, and if her husband decides to cheat, well, that's her fault because she somehow drove him to it.

 

If a woman chooses to work outside the home while she is a mother, and her husband decides to cheat, well again, that must be her fault too, because if she had only stayed at home with her family and looked after him, he never would have cheated.

 

While I loved being a stay at home mom, and would do it again, I can totally understand how many women want to work because, should anything happen, they need a career of their own to fall back on should their marriage not work out. You have no idea how frightening it can be for a woman to find herself in the position of having been a stay at home mom for ten or more years after having given up your career and suddenly your husband deiced he wants a divorce, your husband loses loses his job and is having trouble finding a new one, or something terrible happens and he is no longer able to work or he passes away.

 

It is not doing your children any favors by putting them in a situation where, should dad no longer be providing an income, mom won't be able to either. This is why I kept up with my credentials, etc.

 

btw, if you want to see the value society places on being a SAHM, look at how many men would be very unhappy about having to pay spousal support to their ex-wife if they had decided that he would work at she would stay at home and raise the family. Look at how many would fele she was gouging her ex-husbnad. Look at how many woman would look down on her too.

 

I suspect it would be even worse for a man who had chosen to stay at home while his wife worked.

[wmacbride]

When did jogging strollers, and piano lessons become a necessity. Even braces. I have friends whose parents could not afford braces, when they were young, and those friends later paid for their own braces as adults.

 

Clothing is a necessity but unless one is buying designer clothing for their kids, if you can not afford to buy clothing, on one parent's $200,000 salary, than do not have kids.

 

I do not agree with everything Gloria25 says, but she does have many valid points. The biology issue is one.

 

Also, IMO, if a couple has children and one is earning $200,000 plus, they can afford for the mother to stay home and care for the children properly.

 

I do think that too much is expected of women, today IMO, it is NOT possible to have it all. And, there is a lot of shaming today of women who choose to be stay at home mothers.

 

IMO, a working mother is neither a good worker, nor a good mother.

 

As man who owns several business, I can tell you, I very carefully and secretly avoid hiring women with young children because the mothers I have hired are always needing time off to care for sick kids or what not. A lot of time off.

That is not fair to my other employees. Those employees have to pick up the slack for this working mother and that is not fair. It's not the entire work forces responsibility to take care of another family's children. That is the parent's responsibility and many seem to be shirking it.

 

IMO, a woman should have a career, when single, but when she decides to have children, she should put that career on hold and stay home to care for those children, until they are at least in High School.

 

If people can not afford for one parent to stay home to care for the children, perhaps they should not have children and perhaps they should invest in better birth control methods.

 

It's not like the old days where people would just OOPS get pregnant. There are excellent birth control methods today.

 

I don't know where you live, but here, that is considered discrimination and against the law.

[mikeylo]

Men benefit from being in a loving committed relationship. It doesn't come easy but that is the truth , no matter how we put it. We have been taught that it's the women but I guess it's men. Health is most important and that is what a loving relationship provides. Happiness in personal relationship keeps all areas of life happy. All stress seems manageable. We live longer and less visits to the doc !

[PrettyEmily77]

Men benefit from being in a loving committed relationship. It doesn't come easy but that is the truth , no matter how we put it. We have been taught that it's the women but I guess it's men. Health is most important and that is what a loving relationship provides. Happiness in personal relationship keeps all areas of life happy. All stress seems manageable. We live longer and less visits to the doc !

 

Everyone benefits from being in a loving committed relationship. Not at all costs, though. Happiness is a very subjective notion anyway (I've been happy single and I'm just as happy now in my relationship) but as long as you get into a relationship for the right reasons, it should be a good experience for all involved.

 

It's just that women haven't really been afforded that luxury until recently, and it's only right some of us use it to our advantage. Ultimately, it works for men too as they now have more assurances that their partner has chosen them for who they are rather than what they can bring - it probably means it'll take more time to find the right fit, but the benefits of that far outweigh the negatives from where I'm sitting.

 

Win win for all in the long run, I think.

[thefooloftheyear]

And I've seen men swoon over things about women, that have nothing to do with them being a good wife and mother.

 

No argument....

 

A slim woman with DD's will drive most guys nuts...

 

TFY

[GoodOnPaper]

It's just that women haven't really been afforded that luxury until recently, and it's only right some of us use it to our advantage. Ultimately, it works for men too as they now have more assurances that their partner has chosen them for who they are rather than what they can bring - it probably means it'll take more time to find the right fit, but the benefits of that far outweigh the negatives from where I'm sitting.

 

Win win for all in the long run, I think.

 

Was every woman from prior generations in her marriage only to escape financial destitution?? There was no love and happiness, ever??

 

Here's the thing - for a lot of men, "what they can bring" is completely interwoven with "who they are". That's what the provider instinct is all about - supposedly that's a "masculine" thing. I'm not a science PhD academic because it happens to be an enjoyable pastime. It's how I connect with the world - continually needing to learn more is pretty much a compulsion - it's fortunate that I'm able to earn enough of a living to house and feed myself and my family.

 

So you say this kind of thing doesn't count anymore because it's too repressive to women . . . fine. What's left? You can see it on LS - women say they want LTRs but are using short-term attraction qualities as the measuring sticks (pun intended?) for LTR potential. I tell you, the smart guys going forward are the players and personal trainers.

[thefooloftheyear]

I dunno....

 

I don't see any men around me struggling....Most are either happy in their situation or have basically foregone the idea of a relationship in lieu of other pursuits.....

 

Things are actually pretty good for the average man now....If a guy is above average, its never been better...

 

I see and talk to a lot of guys as an employer in a male dominated business for almost 3 decades..Most don't have any great interest in marriage..Most of them report their gf's are the ones wanting a marriage and kids...

 

Also, with women in better careers/jobs, its less of an issue for a guy to be the "be all" type of guy...You are seeing this evidenced in this thread..Most settle into doing whatever it is that suits them and don't really feel as insecure as they guys from my era did if they weren't big earners and providers..

 

Also, I think the fact that due to technology and the general changing attitudes about sex among women, its not the mountain to climb for most guys as it once was..There are a variety of hookup sites with eager women, so it takes that pressure off as well..A friend of mine who was recently divorced was actually having a field day on sites like Tinder...He's a good friend, but even he'd admit that he's nothing special..He even mentioned how amazingly easy it was...

 

Guys are also more into hobbies than women are...That's also a great diversion for guys if they aren't in relationships...find a guy with a

 

I recently went on a trip with a few guys...We were together for 4 days taking in a few events of interest...All of these guys are successful and accomplished, 3 of the 4 were divorced....The whole time, not once did any guy complain about struggling or their relationship woes...

 

So, while I didnt read the article in the OP, I am just not seeing how guys are sitting around lamenting about women.....Maybe its happening, but im not seeing it...

 

TFY

[PrettyEmily77]

Was every woman from prior generations in her marriage only to escape financial destitution?? There was no love and happiness, ever??

 

Here's the thing - for a lot of men, "what they can bring" is completely interwoven with "who they are". That's what the provider instinct is all about - supposedly that's a "masculine" thing. I'm not a science PhD academic because it happens to be an enjoyable pastime. It's how I connect with the world - continually needing to learn more is pretty much a compulsion - it's fortunate that I'm able to earn enough of a living to house and feed myself and my family.

 

So you say this kind of thing doesn't count anymore because it's too repressive to women . . . fine. What's left? You can see it on LS - women say they want LTRs but are using short-term attraction qualities as the measuring sticks (pun intended?) for LTR potential. I tell you, the smart guys going forward are the players and personal trainers.

 

I don't know how you read all this from my post.

 

I didn't say anything about women being repressed in any way - I just said now women are afforded more choice, which can only be a good thing, right?

 

I'm a woman in an LTR, and have not used short-term attraction qualities as measuring stick (I didn't get the pun, sorry, unless it's to do with penis size?) for my present relationship.

 

I mean, I don't really know how to reply to that post, other than possibly retrain as personal trainer?

[Jabron1]

Which, of course, brings this thread full-circle: *Nowadays*, if some men can't adapt and respond positively to today's social mores and social pressures as they pertain to relationships and [the need for] two-earner households, they are going to struggle.

 

Struggle how?

[carhill]

While men are all different, those in my social group, even close friends, would rather saw their finger off with a dull blade than ever voice a complaint about their marriage or relationship. They, like my exW, view men sharing content regarding struggles of any sort as weakness or impotence and to be avoided. Die if you must, but don't complain about it. Heck, even the ones who've gotten cancer and died from it didn't really complain at all. Comparatively, relationship struggles with women are nothing. The good news is, if the article is accurate and women are opting out, they can easily avoid those guys who didn't get the message regarding complaining. Win

[Liam1]

As much as I enjoyed your lesson in English vocabulary Liam, your point is rather moot.

 

You entirely missed what I was trying to say. I never said women who choose to have children are hapless (damn, far from it), rather that was an inference of Gloria's overall statements.

 

Well, you may have enjoyed the vocabulary lesson but you missed my irony of my point. It was meant to be sarcastic.

 

IMO, the fact that women are hapless was not, IMO, Gloria's point. Her point is part is that they have choices and they need to consider them, before marrying.