Woggle Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 I never said I don't believe in studies most of them have an agenda. I can find this study that says modern who do housework actually get divorced more often. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwijuo2j6svMAhWM6RQKHev4BjsQFggjMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fworldnews%2Feurope%2F9572187%2FCouples-who-share-the-housework-are-more-likely-to-divorce-study-finds.html&usg=AFQjCNHMGMN_eLftkV5fWtSpR27G_TsD1g I am sure feminists would try and argue that one and I doubt it as well but it shows you can find a study to support any opinion you want. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Author Kamille Posted May 9, 2016 Author Share Posted May 9, 2016 I think I am gonna post a link that confirms (scientifically/statistically)that women are far worse drivers than men and men are actually getting shafted, because they should be paying less for car insurance than women, but the insurance companies don't have the balls to enact it.... Then i am going to stand back and watch all the female posters say its bullshyt... (go ahead and look it up.....its there.) TFY You mean like you guys just did for one of the multiple studies that shows women tend to do more housework? Do it. Facts are better than ideology. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Kamille Posted May 9, 2016 Author Share Posted May 9, 2016 I never said I don't believe in studies most of them have an agenda. I can find this study that says modern who do housework actually get divorced more often. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwijuo2j6svMAhWM6RQKHev4BjsQFggjMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fworldnews%2Feurope%2F9572187%2FCouples-who-share-the-housework-are-more-likely-to-divorce-study-finds.html&usg=AFQjCNHMGMN_eLftkV5fWtSpR27G_TsD1g I am sure feminists would try and argue that one and I doubt it as well but it shows you can find a study to support any opinion you want. But the deeper reasons for the higher divorce rate, he suggested, came from the values of “modern” couples rather than the chores they shared. “Modern couples are just that, both in the way they divide up the chores and in their perception of marriage” as being less sacred, Mr Hansen said. “In these modern couples, women also have a high level of education and a well-paid job, which makes them less dependent on their spouse financially. Yep. ___________ 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Jabron1 Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 Or, one can use social sciences, yes, the science that cumulates everyone's experiences to try to understand the larger picture. We've gone backwards now into the social sciences Note: I never used the word belligerent to describe anyone. It was a cheeky little ad-hominem, and you know it. So are you guys giving up? The argument "we don't believe in studies" is usually what people say when they've run out all other arguments. I don't put value on these things. I'm not arguing about it with you. I'm telling you it means jack sh*t to me. And I've told you why. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
mrldii Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 To those too afraid to click on the hot-linked citation (which also included hotlinks within to the actual studies cited within it), the *questionable* sources of these studies were: * Bureau of Labor Statistics * Working Mother Research Institute * American Psychological Association * Psychological Sciences (publication) * Families and Work Institute * Georgetown University Law School * John Robinson & Geoffrey Godbey I suppose anything's possible, but [some of] y'all really believe all of these studies were conducted by - and researched - only the 'Nice Guys' who'll say anything just to get in women's pants?!? Common sense would dictate that's highly improbable. I'd post a hotlink to a reputable source to support that factoid, but [some of] y'all would just claim "common sense doesn't exist", either...to which, you may be correct. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
BlueIris Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 So you don't believe in science. The problem with your statement is that your experiences are of little value to people who've experienced other things. And then you're left with battles of opinions. Granted, you seem to enjoy those. But science is better True. I think that one reason that there are so many happy single women is, choice. Ever since The Pill, we have so many more choices of things to do with our lives, at any time in our lives. No matter what we choose and then choose again later, the fact of freedom to make choices is a huge contributor to happiness. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 Yep. ___________ Maybe so but statistics show that educated and independent women get married more often and get divorced less. Divorce statistics and class unlike the inner workings of a person's home are statistics that actually can be tracked because they are on the books. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author Kamille Posted May 9, 2016 Author Share Posted May 9, 2016 So are you guys saying you are convinced men do more housework than women? Spend more time caring for children and aging parents? I'm not sure I understand why it's so important to you guys that this be wrong. Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 I am not saying more men do more housework than women but it is not as some unbalanced as feminists say it is because if it were according to studies there would be a lot less divorce. These days men do more around the house than any other generation. Link to post Share on other sites
BlueIris Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 So are you guys saying you are convinced men do more housework than women? Spend more time caring for children and aging parents? I'm not sure I understand why it's so important to you guys that this be wrong. You might not be sure, but I'm betting that your first guess was right. Link to post Share on other sites
mrldii Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 Maybe so but statistics show that educated and independent women get married more often and get divorced less... While it IS true that women are people, too, this is true for college educated people, not just for "educated women." The link between a college education and a lasting marriage | Pew Research Center "...College-educated adults are more likely to be married than less-educated adults..." 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 While it IS true that women are people, too, this is true for college educated people, not just for "educated women." The link between a college education and a lasting marriage | Pew Research Center "...College-educated adults are more likely to be married than less-educated adults..." True but this news should make misogynists and misandrists angry. Misogynists like to claim that women being successful and educated hurts their relationship prospects which is crap and misandrists like to claim that women having independence means they no longer need men and that we are now superfluous which again is crap. It is the lower classes where marriage and family have fallen apart. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
mrldii Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 True but this news should make misogynists and misandrists angry. Misogynists like to claim that women being successful and educated hurts their relationship prospects which is crap and misandrists like to claim that women having independence means they no longer need men and that we are now superfluous which again is crap. It is the lower classes where marriage and family have fallen apart. "Lower classes" is where more out-of-wedlock children are borne. "Lower classes" is where birth control and family planning is less likely to be accessible OR utilized. "Lower classes" is where more economic struggles will occur. It is more likely one who is pursuing an academic career - perhaps even through advanced degrees - is going to put off having children and/or marrying. The older a person is, the more likely they'll make better decisions, since the frontal lobe doesn't complete its development until the age of 25. Besides, people who earn more money typically have more to lose, pre-nups notwithstanding. People can ignore it all they want, but the bottom line of the original posted study is: generally-speaking, previously-married men are more open to marrying again than previously-married women. There's gotta be a reason for that statistical fact; that reason has got to be better than "there's more single older women, than there are single older men." To believe that, I'd have to believe that men are born without a backbone and/or are incapable of saying, "No, I don't want to." Common sense commands me to not buy either of those possibilities. But I'm open to continuing to read the many *arguments* insisting that is, in fact, the case. [some of] y'all may convince me. Link to post Share on other sites
thefooloftheyear Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 There's gotta be a reason for that statistical fact; that reason has got to be better than "there's more single older women, than there are single older men." To believe that, I'd have to believe that men are born without a backbone and/or are incapable of saying, "No, I don't want to." Common sense commands me to not buy either of those possibilities. But I'm open to continuing to read the many *arguments* insisting that is, in fact, the case. [some of] y'all may convince me. I gave you a completely rational reason, backed by one(or more?) of your hundred posted links, but you just proceeded to browbeat, so why even bother? TFY 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 I can't into men's and women's heads so I can't figure out their reasons for how they live their lives. Everybody has their own individual reasons. I do think a lot of it has to do with age though. Most of my friends are in their 30s just like me and the ones who want marriage already have done it. The rest have no desire at all and these are successful guys who live nice lives. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
thefooloftheyear Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 "Lower classes" is where more out-of-wedlock children are borne. "Lower classes" is where birth control and family planning is less likely to be accessible OR utilized. "Lower classes" is where more economic struggles will occur. It is more likely one who is pursuing an academic career - perhaps even through advanced degrees - is going to put off having children and/or marrying. The older a person is, the more likely they'll make better decisions, since the frontal lobe doesn't complete its development until the age of 25. Besides, people who earn more money typically have more to lose, pre-nups notwithstanding. You can also dig up a few links that confirm that higher educated/higher income people engage in infidelity at a higher rate than their lower earning counterparts.. Also, see bolded... A friend of mine recently divorced...He makes a shade over 200K...He was ordered to give his exw 75K/yr...Now take a guy that's making 50K and make him pay 18K Who is worse off...who had more to lose? TFY 1 Link to post Share on other sites
mrldii Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 I gave you a completely rational reason... I've responded to each of your "rational reason", as you've made them, referring to the studies which refuted - or did not mention any substantiation of - your suppositions. ...backed by one(or more?) of your hundred posted links Factually-speaking, I have not included a "hundred posted links" in this thread yet. ...but you just proceeded to browbeat... (Even if I am a female poster,) providing factual citations which refute your suppositions and render them invalid is not "brow-beating"; it's basing my opinions (and therefore, my posts) in facts and reality rather than emotional reactionism. ...so why even bother? Ahhhh, but yet, you did bother to bother: You can also dig up a few links that confirm that higher educated/higher income people engage in infidelity at a higher rate than their lower earning counterparts.. I could, but I won't. I haven't been promoted to your secretary. If there's a citation to a reputable source you'd like to share with the class, feel free. Also, the demographics of infidelity has nothing to do with the original post's study, which found that previously-married men are more open to remarrying than previously-married women. ...A friend of mine recently divorced...He makes a shade over 200K...He was ordered to give his exw 75K/yr...Now take a guy that's making 50K and make him pay 18K Who is worse off...who had more to lose? Applying basic math skills, your $200K friend paid 38% of his income; your poorer buddy is paying 36%. What's your point...that a mere 2% is the difference between being on top of the world or going belly-up in complete financial ruin? 2 Link to post Share on other sites
thefooloftheyear Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 (edited) \ Applying basic math skills, your $200K friend paid 38% of his income; your poorer buddy is paying 36%. What's your point...that a mere 2% is the difference between being on top of the world or going belly-up in complete financial ruin? No...You obviously wasted your time even doing the math... The higher earner guy is still bringing down a good deal of money, He may trade the S class for a Lexus, but he'll still get by. can still have his stuff and a decent home to live in... The 50K guy went from barely getting by to living under a bridge in a refrigerator box... Get it now?? TFY Edited May 9, 2016 by thefooloftheyear 2 Link to post Share on other sites
mrldii Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 No...You obviously wasted your time even doing the math... The higher earner guy is still bringing down a good deal of money, He may trade the S class for a Lexus, but he'll still get by. can still have his stuff and a decent home to live in... The 50K guy went from barely getting by to living under a bridge in a refrigerator box... Get it now?? No, I really don't; approximately 35% is still approximately 35%. The guy who's making $50K is still making 75% less than guy making $200K, so his life and lifestyle always looked different, whether he was single or married a woman or a man. Blaming his "living under a bridge in a refrigerator box" (or 'living in a van, down by the river') has to do with his educational and/or employment and/or career aspirations/promotions more than it does the fact that he chose to get married, have kids, and have his wife give up her employment to be a SAHM, making him his sammiches, on demand. But again, how does your latest post address the statistical fact that previously-married men are more open to the possibility of remarrying than previously-married women are? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
BlueIris Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 No...You obviously wasted your time even doing the math... The higher earner guy is still bringing down a good deal of money, He may trade the S class for a Lexus, but he'll still get by. can still have his stuff and a decent home to live in... The 50K guy went from barely getting by to living under a bridge in a refrigerator box... Get it now?? TFY At least where I live, that isn't how child support or spousal support are calculated by courts. People can make agreements themselves, of course, but if you're talking court-ordered support the lower-income person would not pay the same percentage that the wealthier person would. Also, the number of minor children, the amount of parenting time, the other spouse’s education and income (or where none, imputed income), number of years in/out of the workforce, childcare costs, and other factors also come into play. A man who has 2 children and makes $40k per year isn’t going to be paying 36-36% in child support, here at least. And his wife will have at least FT minimum wage imputed to her. Link to post Share on other sites
thefooloftheyear Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 At least where I live, that isn't how child support or spousal support are calculated by courts. People can make agreements themselves, of course, but if you're talking court-ordered support the lower-income person would not pay the same percentage that the wealthier person would. Also, the number of minor children, the amount of parenting time, the other spouse’s education and income (or where none, imputed income), number of years in/out of the workforce, childcare costs, and other factors also come into play. A man who has 2 children and makes $40k per year isn’t going to be paying 36-36% in child support, here at least. And his wife will have at least FT minimum wage imputed to her. You don't get it either....The numbers really aren't the story... My argument contended what the other poster said about wealthier/higher educated "having more to lose" More to lose is relative...Mix up the numbers however you want...In a typical divorce, lower income people suffer more than higher ones do, no matter what the numbers/percentages are..To one person its a lifestyle tweak...to another, its a devastation... So who has more to lose? No prize for the correct answer here... TFY Link to post Share on other sites
Imajerk17 Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 (edited) Well, these are my questions about the study: 1. Women being less happy IN marriage than men, vs women WANTING TO get married less than men do: Aren't those two very different things? 2. Has the relative happiness of single women vs single men been studied. Maybe women really do more work around the house than men. It does seem quite believable to me. I still am going to conjecture (from 1. ) that some of the men today like being single and that some truly want to get married, just as for women, but that a higher percentage of women than men still want to be married. Edited May 9, 2016 by Imajerk17 1 Link to post Share on other sites
BlueIris Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 (edited) Oh, well, I agree that the poorer have more to lose all around in divorce. It's close to your percentage for the lower income non-custodial parent. I just ran a NJ Child Support calculation out of curiosity, and this is how it worked out. Assuming 2 kids and wife/mom is the custodial parent: H $40k and W $20k (min wage estimated), he pays 29%, about $11,500/yr in CS. H$200k and W$20k, he pays 15%, about $31,000 in CS. Double the percentage of income. This might be off topic, but I'll go there any way. Sadly lots of lower-income people have sex, get pregnant, have the baby and think that not getting married means it will cost them less. But CS is calculated the same way whether you were married or not. Baby making is the expensive part, of course, because babies/kids are expensive. ETA: I get what she’s saying, though. In raw numbers, a couple with $1M in assets each gets $500k. If one believed that the assets were ALL his or hers, yeah, that person would feel that they’d lost more. Edited May 9, 2016 by BlueIris afterthought Link to post Share on other sites
wmacbride Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 I would wonder though if having a lower income could be very stressful for a husband or wife, lead to more arguments about finances, and make the husband and wife unhappy overall, not just in their marriage. As an aside, many educated people do wait until they are older to have children, but infertility rates go up and the rates for certain birth defects also go up in older people. age and fertiltity I would think that finding it difficult to conceive or having a child with issues could also be very stressful to a marriage. Link to post Share on other sites
Els Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 (edited) Of course studies are not foolproof. They can be debunked, alternative hypotheses proposed, their methodology found to be faulty, etc. There is a whole portion of academia dedicated to analyzing the veracity of other studies. That being said, if you're going to debate a study's worth, at least have some logical hypothesis to debunk it with, that is relevant to the study you're debunking. "Because studies suuuuck" is not a logical hypothesis. Neither is "because it isn't the case in my life." My hypothesis re: the "couples where the man does more housework are more likely to divorce" study is that the causation is muddled. Couples who split the housework 50/50 are likely to have less traditional views on marriage as well - that does not mean that their marriage 'fails more often', just that they are willing to 'call it a day' earlier. A successful marriage is a happy marriage, not just a non-divorced one. My second hypothesis is that the methodology is flawed because they are not adjusting for the income split of the couple. If you truly want to assess the impact of housework split on marriages, you have to assess or control the income split as well. In a couple where the woman does 100% of the housework, it's possible that it is because the man does 100% of the earning, in which case they are actually pretty balanced so they are more likely to be happy. That would be an entirely different story from a couple where the woman does 90% of the earning and 70% of the housework. Edited May 9, 2016 by Elswyth 7 Link to post Share on other sites
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