Author PinkSunset Posted May 30, 2016 Author Share Posted May 30, 2016 I'm wondering why you felt the need to lie to her? You are responsible for how you participate. Now you've decided to blatantly lie? Can you just start being honest about this? I didn't mean to lie to her about being with Kevin, I just really didn't know what to say. All she asked was how Kevin and I were doing and I was so lost for words I just said we were great. She didn't ask me if I referred Jamie to a lawyer. If she did I don't know what I would have said. I never pictured myself having a conversation with her about any of it. I am sure I looked like an awkward hot mess. Was I supposed to come right out and tell her everything that has gone on right there in the parking lot? Link to post Share on other sites
Author PinkSunset Posted May 30, 2016 Author Share Posted May 30, 2016 I also thinkJamie acting all outraged and saying he was going to tell her right away how inappropriate it was is likely just posturing on his part to evoke a certain feeling in you. (Which he is pretty good at.) He knows damn well if he told her it was inappropriate that would signal to her you two were in comfortable communication. And yes waiting a day doesnt really alleviate that. The fact is he can tell you he told her but very well wont and you have no way to know. The whole topic is just pointless. If its inappropriate than YOU tell her. But agreeing as some team that he will tell his wife A....when he is probably lying anyway, is just silly really. I mean really this is just nothing compared to the drama to ensue so... My take away is it clicked for her due to you turning beet red and cutting things short. She probably in that moment remembered his friendliness to you, some early calls and texts. Maybe an Aha moment. The attornwy query eas to gage your reaction and see you sweat. Seems pretty suspect: flustered, embarassed female friend....insincerity and nervousness...cut convo short....immediately pull out your phone once safely in car. Its very likely she suspects you. That's all true. I can't hide my feelings very easily and it's usually all over my face. Maybe it was an "aha" moment. I never was a very good actress. Jamie hasn't said anything to her yet, I just asked him. I told him maybe he should just leave it alone. He still thinks it's inappropriate but thinks it is possible she knows. He has to see her tonight to pick up his son so he will let me know if she says anything. Link to post Share on other sites
Author PinkSunset Posted May 30, 2016 Author Share Posted May 30, 2016 I'm wondering why you felt the need to lie to her? You are responsible for how you participate. Now you've decided to blatantly lie? Can you just start being honest about this? I just wanted to add that I wouldn't feel comfortable telling her Kevin and I broke up anyway, outside of a business in the middle of daylight standing awkwardly while people walk by! It was just easier to say we were great, and avoid the whole process. Link to post Share on other sites
Author PinkSunset Posted May 30, 2016 Author Share Posted May 30, 2016 The honest answer would be that you aren't seeing Kevin anymore.. And for targeted minimal contact - it looks like you're now doing full contact since you know everything he's doing all weekend and immediately picked up your phone to call him as soon as you got to your car. Is your goal at this point to stay out of the mess this will be for a while or to be communicating with him as if you're dating him? It had been a few days since I had spoken to him before this. I had been ignoring his calls and emails the whole week! I guess in the moment he was the only one who could possibly understand my anxiety about the whole thing. I wanted to know if he knew anything or why she would ask me about a lawyer. We are still not in full contact mode, I have barely spoken to him today except to ask if he had said anything. He wanted to meet for lunch and I said I was busy. He is getting frustrated that I won't see him. Link to post Share on other sites
MaggieNilson Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 What was her demeanor like during the first part of tge convo? Was it friendly and normal? And was her demeanor different when she came up to the car? Bc if she was pissed about you referring him to a lawyer certainly that would have occured to her when she first saw you. Thats why to me it seems more like a realization vs pisses about somethimg she already knew. And did Jamie tell her you referred him to an attorney? If ao why on earth would he do that? Link to post Share on other sites
elaine567 Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 Im confused why Jamie would tell her this was "inapproproate". So am I. I think if it looks like he is springing to your defense here, then she is going to put two and two together if she hasn't already done so. YOU running telling tales to Jamie about his wife, and he all fired up will look suspicious to her, and the fact you were all flustered and embarrassed when she spoke to you, will I guess clinch the deal for her. It may seem "inappropriate" in the context of your affair, and no doubt it feels good for the two of you to gang up and chastise her for it, but I think saying anything to her about it will identify the two of you as a "pair" and that is all fine if you are happy for her to find out about the two of you. Link to post Share on other sites
Author PinkSunset Posted May 30, 2016 Author Share Posted May 30, 2016 My goal is to be able to see him and not worry about anything. To be able to be out in the open without hiding or any anxiety. I need him to be able to stand on his own two feet without me being there as his landing pad before I can allow this to go any further. I was going in the right direction up until Saturday morning. Link to post Share on other sites
Author PinkSunset Posted May 30, 2016 Author Share Posted May 30, 2016 So am I. I think if it looks like he is springing to your defense here, then she is going to put two and two together if she hasn't already done so. YOU running telling tales to Jamie about his wife, and he all fired up will look suspicious to her, and the fact you were all flustered and embarrassed when she spoke to you, will I guess clinch the deal for her. It may seem "inappropriate" in the context of your affair, and no doubt it feels good for the two of you to gang up and chastise her for it, but I think saying anything to her about it will identify the two of you as a "pair" and that is all fine if you are happy for her to find out about the two of you. Well thankfully he never said anything because she probably would have figured that part out for sure. Maybe she planted the seed to see where it would go. My mind is so all over the place today wondering what her purpose is for knocking on my window... Ugh. It does feel good having him stick up for me I will admit. It almost made me cave on seeing him tonight. Link to post Share on other sites
elaine567 Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 I don't know if he would have told her that Jamie and I spoke all the time or that he left because of the lies and deception. I can't see him doing that... He did threaten once that he would tell her but that was in anger. He usually takes the high road and tries to stay drama free so I can't see it. He may not have made it his business to tell her when he left you, but if she was asking as a betrayed wife, then he may then see her as a "kindred spirit" and someone he could open up to and vent to. Link to post Share on other sites
elaine567 Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 I also think Jamie acting all outraged and saying he was going to tell her right away how inappropriate it was is likely just posturing on his part to evoke a certain feeling in you. (Which he is pretty good at.). It does feel good having him stick up for me I will admit. It almost made me cave on seeing him tonight. Yes, he is pretty good, it obviously worked. Link to post Share on other sites
MaggieNilson Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 It does feel good having him stick up for me I will admit. It almost made me cave on seeing him tonight. Bingo. This is a perfect example of Jamie playing you like a fiddle, whether deliberatly or subconsciously You call upset at his mean wife making you feel uncomfortable.....he then "stands up for you", offering to confront mean wife. You then have renewed/rekindled emotion for him. YET he probably never intended to tell her. He knows darn well he can play dumb and you will then be "the logical one" to stop him from acting rashly out of his love for you. See how that works? You feel like he has taken some big step for you but he has in fact done nothing Is it at all surprising that when you called him today, he hadnt yet told her like planned? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author PinkSunset Posted May 30, 2016 Author Share Posted May 30, 2016 He may not have made it his business to tell her when he left you, but if she was asking as a betrayed wife, then he may then see her as a "kindred spirit" and someone he could open up to and vent to. Anything is possible right now. Even if Kevin ended up talking to her at some point I don't see him going on about us and why it happened. The only scenario would be if she point blank asked him if Jamie and I had something going on. I don't think he would lie to her, but I know he still loves me. At least, he did when he left and he wasn't angry when he left either. He hoped the best for me... And he never had proof of anything either. Link to post Share on other sites
Author PinkSunset Posted May 30, 2016 Author Share Posted May 30, 2016 Can you see how quickly this has become entangled with you in the middle? He may say something to her that indicates she saw you - and then drama will ensue. He ought to keep his mouth shut! Unless he's trying to create MORE drama? Why would he care? He's divorcing her right? Well - at least SHE put some honesty out there! Any attempt to communicate with him leans toward him trying to find more ways to communicate with you and see you. Just step far away from his mess and HIS drama for a LONG time! He's messed up - and has a ton of crap to sort through - crap that he alone can only do. Have you seen a counselor yet to talk about your codependency issues? I've been going once a week and she wants me to try and stay LC with him if I can't do NC. She says he needs to be able to work through his crap on his own and I agree. I keep seeing him as this lost person and I'm working through it. I had a lot of issues after I was raped 14 years ago, I saw her for a while but it's been 3 years. She helped me through a ton of crap. I eventually didn't need her anymore and I am hoping to get to that place again. LS has actually helped me huge... I wish I had known about this place a few years ago. Link to post Share on other sites
Author PinkSunset Posted May 30, 2016 Author Share Posted May 30, 2016 Yes, he is pretty good, it obviously worked. Bingo. This is a perfect example of Jamie playing you like a fiddle, whether deliberatly or subconsciously You call upset at his mean wife making you feel uncomfortable.....he then "stands up for you", offering to confront mean wife. You then have renewed/rekindled emotion for him. YET he probably never intended to tell her. He knows darn well he can play dumb and you will then be "the logical one" to stop him from acting rashly out of his love for you. See how that works? You feel like he has taken some big step for you but he has in fact done nothing Is it at all surprising that when you called him today, he hadnt yet told her like planned? Do you guys actually think he says in his head "I am going to put on a show like I am protecting her and it will bring her back into my arms"??? Is that how people really work? If it is, I am new. It's so hard for me to see someone that loves me manipulate me to this point. If THIS is how it truly went then I can't be with someone like that! I don't see him setting this whole thing up in his head. I think he would have called her on it but he was just busy today or he planned on saying something tonight when he sees her. Is this how typical MM work??? It blows my mind! Link to post Share on other sites
ChickiePops Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 She has a sister who she is very close with and who hangs out at their house constantly. I am sure her sister knows all about their separation. She does not need some woman she met through her soon to be ex husband to give her advice. She is way smarter than you're giving her credit for. Her coming to my car had motive, it's just a matter of what. I really don't see him being cruel to her after such a trauma with him being an ex paramedic. He really is not a bad person and doesn't go out of his way to speak ill of her, trust me. You have no idea though. There's no way you could ever know what transpired. I know you see him as your God now but he's not perfect. Once you're in a relationship with him his flaws will become readily apparent. She very well may be suspicious, and if she is, she's right to be, and she's right to hate you and her husband. Your attitude towards her is really crappy PS, and for no reason. What has she done to you? 2 Link to post Share on other sites
anika99 Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 This is not true. Say if Jamie and I had just socialized with the 4 of us those few times and then after the verbal abuse we just stopped making it personal and left everything with Jamie business like... Her asking me would be inappropriate! As far as she knows THIS is what went on. I would never ask my boyfriend's business associate for divorce lawyer references, even if there might have been a potential friendship there, I haven't spoken to her in half a year! It doesn't matter if her question was inappropriate, that's not the point. The point is that neither you or your MM have any business telling her that her behavior is inappropriate when you two are no better than her when it comes to being inappropriate. Their is a bible verse that goes along the lines of "don't worry about a speck in your brother's eye when you have a board in your own eye". Something like that. Or how about "people in glass houses shouldn't through stones?" It all basically boils down to the hypocrisy of point out another's mistakes or sins when you are just as bad or worse. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
MaggieNilson Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 No i dont think in 2 seconds Jamie concocted a plan to act like he would confront on your behalf without really intending to per se..... However MM generally will instinctively say whatever rhey need to, to keep the romance and love flowing. To keep the focus ON the great love and OFF the fact he is married. Its like automatic. Habit. They say what is neccessary to keep the love fantasy going. So i think he probably intintfully said he would confront. But when it came down to it, of course he wouldnt. And he would just give you some logical excuse or reason had you pushed it vs playing "logical one" and talking him down from it Just be aware how easy it was in this instance for Jamies words.....and not actions.....to almost cause you to go see him Overall its just sad how in the dark both you and his wife are. Jamie has all the answers. He is in the best position of the 3 of you. Link to post Share on other sites
Author PinkSunset Posted May 30, 2016 Author Share Posted May 30, 2016 You have no idea though. There's no way you could ever know what transpired. I know you see him as your God now but he's not perfect. Once you're in a relationship with him his flaws will become readily apparent. She very well may be suspicious, and if she is, she's right to be, and she's right to hate you and her husband. Your attitude towards her is really crappy PS, and for no reason. What has she done to you? I have no respect for her because of the way she has treated her husband. Jamie may or may not lie about some of these things like everyone has stated and I accept that as a possibility, but they can't take away what I witnessed myself. They can't take away what Kevin witnessed either. "Stupid, idiot, useless, you're not funny, you think you're so good at everything and you're not." These are a few of the words and things that were said to him in front of two almost strangers. Imagine how it is behind closed doors? Link to post Share on other sites
ShatteredLady Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 My concern & it is CONCERN is.... Jamie appears to be very good at encouraging/manipulating you into getting very involved in his marriage dramas & creating drama. You're building a loathing of this woman. This woman is the MOTHER of the child you will be the step mother of! It's clear that you're hoping to have a future with Jamie. The very best for all involved will be an, at least civil relationship between you & his bs. All of these lies are going to make that harder & harder. Ugh! I can see this all getting very messy, very soon. Link to post Share on other sites
Cloudcuckoo Posted May 30, 2016 Share Posted May 30, 2016 I have no respect for her because of the way she has treated her husband. Jamie may or may not lie about some of these things like everyone has stated and I accept that as a possibility, but they can't take away what I witnessed myself. They can't take away what Kevin witnessed either. "Stupid, idiot, useless, you're not funny, you think you're so good at everything and you're not." These are a few of the words and things that were said to him in front of two almost strangers. Imagine how it is behind closed doors? I think a valid point is that HE chose to put up with that, instead of confronting bad behaviour and demanding more respect. Their marriage is/was none of your business, despite him bleating to you how hard done by he is. Finally it seems, he's had the balls to do something about it, but don't hold your breath that this is the end, for frankly, he's weak as p**s water and just as likely to go running home.... As for his wife and your fleeting exchange? She knows...... 2 Link to post Share on other sites
ChickiePops Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 I have no respect for her because of the way she has treated her husband. Jamie may or may not lie about some of these things like everyone has stated and I accept that as a possibility, but they can't take away what I witnessed myself. They can't take away what Kevin witnessed either. "Stupid, idiot, useless, you're not funny, you think you're so good at everything and you're not." These are a few of the words and things that were said to him in front of two almost strangers. Imagine how it is behind closed doors? You don't know what he says or does to her behind closed doors either. You don't know how he reacted after the trauma of the accident and the miscarriage and the infertility. Her hostility towards him could easily be entirely his fault. Or it could be her. My point is, you don't know and you never will. If you're angry at her for the way she treats him, you should be angry at yourself for the way you've treated her. You're about equal in that respect. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
MaggieNilson Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Any update in this? Did the wife say anything to Jamie or vice versa? Link to post Share on other sites
Author PinkSunset Posted May 31, 2016 Author Share Posted May 31, 2016 And let's not overlook that she may very well have talked terribly to him - but he didn't stop her from doing it did he? He stayed all those years! And the average guy living this way for his entire adult life isn't likely to end it so easily - as you can see...one little phone call from you and HE STILL wants to run to HER with his info. He may never let go of those purse strings - some men just NEED to hang on to the abuse because that's all they've ever known. Family of origin is tough to break free from! He may always need to run to her with every little thing - FOREVER! From what he's said, she has always made verbally abusive comments but it's only gotten worse over the last 2 or 3 years. I think this is when he has started to become truly unhappy. Any update in this? Did the wife say anything to Jamie or vice versa? She wouldn't allow him to take their son from the house last night. They started to argue but he said he just said goodbye to his son as he didn't want to fight in front of him. Nothing was said about me or about her seeing me over the weekend. Why is she making this so hard for him? Why is she not letting him be a father to his son? She has no idea how many mothers out there would love to have their children father take an active part. I don't get it. The only one it is hurting is the boy. It makes me sad. Link to post Share on other sites
Author PinkSunset Posted May 31, 2016 Author Share Posted May 31, 2016 I think a valid point is that HE chose to put up with that, instead of confronting bad behaviour and demanding more respect. Their marriage is/was none of your business, despite him bleating to you how hard done by he is. Finally it seems, he's had the balls to do something about it, but don't hold your breath that this is the end, for frankly, he's weak as p**s water and just as likely to go running home.... As for his wife and your fleeting exchange? She knows...... I suppose he is weak in the fact that he tried to work on it instead of just leaving. Of course he confronted her about the way shes been. If she does know, I wish she would just confront us already. Link to post Share on other sites
MaggieNilson Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Because its a devastating thing for a child to see that a parent is living in a different household. Maybe she still isnt convinced he will permanently keave and doesnt want the child exposed to it if there is a chance he comes back. Maybe she is angry and bitter bc she knows she is being lied to and doesnt think a lying parent is good for the child. Maybe she knows he is seeing you and is afraid he will bring the son around you, making it even harder on the boy. Maybe she is just pissed he is walking oit on her after 12 years and is going to make it as hard as possible. I think its realy naive to think she is going to be cooperative or agreeable to any of this. Sounds like he needs an emergency hearing if she is refusing access. Do they have that where you live? Link to post Share on other sites
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