Curious about MM/MW mindset

[Grapesofwrath]

I notice that, in these discussions, we often touch on the concept of polyamory or that some folks are simply non-monogamous. This may be true, but to my knowledge, polyamory also involves honesty. Total transparency. So that all involved parties are aware of what is happening. That's the real issue, for me.

 

I do not accept that a man can "love" his wife, even in a familial way, and lie to her face over and over again in order to cover up an affair that he knows would devastate her emotionally and destroy her life as she knows it. This simply isn't how you treat someone you love, even if it's just a friend or family member.

 

If you would lie to your friend's face, repeatedly and over time, in order to get one over on her, then you are not a friend. We would all agree on that. Same principle applies here. If you would lie, over and over, to your wife in order to get one over on her, then you do not love her. Even in a family way.

 

Only someone lacking empathy can do that to another person. So that's part of what you're seeing. A total lack of empathy. And when there is no empathy, there is no love, IMO.

[Confused9999]

I think more women are grasping the idea of sex alone without the need for "love". Many women of all ages are embracing the FWB/FB culture and cheating events, and are not necessarily "catching feelings" at all.

The number of married women who cheat is increasing too.

I believe the concept of men do it for sex and women do it for love will soon be outdated as more and more women allow themselves to enjoy sex without the need to justify it with "love".

 

I think that it's science... Women tend to bond faster and more during sex. It's the high amount of oxytocin they release.

Therefore whether they intentionally start out that way or not.. They will bond more quickly and more strongly then men initially.

Maybe not in a ONS but certainly after a couple of times.

For men it's not the same chemically or frequency... It will take a lot more factors and time.

[Confused9999]

Good question stilltrying - yes indeed, right to the heart of the problem! And good answer confused - I wish you nothing but the very best, and I understand where you're coming from. I struggled a lot with these type of questions myself.

 

I cheated and have been lucky enough to have been given another chance. Several months into recovery, the sex between my and my W is exactly what I would want it to be. It's great, sweet, loving and satisfying and happens once or twice a week! Perfect for a couple of our age and in our circumstances - kids, busy jobs, etc.

 

It is not the same as the affair sex I had - and I would never want it to be. That was pure fantasy stuff completely self-indulgent, crazy and unsustainable in the long term. A great adventure, but not the kind of sex that is realistic in a long marriage - you would never have any energy left to do anything else and you would soon tire of each other!

 

I know that what I say kind of sounds sh***y like I'm saying that affair sex is off the scale and married sex is just nice and comfortable. I'm not saying that at all. I am saying that I think it is damaging and pointless to compare the antics that we indulge with a new and exciting person, who we know we probably have limited time with, during an illicit, fantasy-based adventure in it's bubble, cut off from the rest of the world, where nothing else matters and no other pressures or external influences exist......to the sexual relationship enjoyed by a couple who may have been together for decades and have all manner of other pressures to attend to - children to feed, jobs to do, MIL to take to the shops, houses/cars to fix, bills to pay, husband's A to deal with, etc. To compare the two would be like comparing a week of taking shots of heroin to a lifetime of eating wholesome meals.

 

Not sure if I'm making sense, but the point I'm trying to make is that it is probably wrong to compare affair sex to long-term married sex and if you use this to measure the health of your marriage or it's likelihood to survive, then you could draw the wrong conclusions.

 

Good luck to everyone. We will beat this!

 

J

 

That's a very good perspective! I know logically that is true...

But emotionally and sexually I am having a hard time with it.

 

And although I know you mean it because you convinced yourself it's the right thing to do.. I also think that probably you feel deep in your heart you REALLY miss the Affair emotions and sex.

[jenkins95]

That's a very good perspective! I know logically that is true...

But emotionally and sexually I am having a hard time with it.

 

And although I know you mean it because you convinced yourself it's the right thing to do.. I also think that probably you feel deep in your heart you REALLY miss the Affair emotions and sex.

 

Yes, good point. My mistake was ever sampling the forbidden fruit in the first place - ignorance is bliss

 

I definitely do miss it. I also definitely feel that it was the right thing to do for everyone to end the affair and move on.

 

Hopefully gradually I will miss it less and less! And I wish the same for you!

[Girlfromcali]

I notice that, in these discussions, we often touch on the concept of polyamory or that some folks are simply non-monogamous. This may be true, but to my knowledge, polyamory also involves honesty. Total transparency. So that all involved parties are aware of what is happening. That's the real issue, for me.

 

I do not accept that a man can "love" his wife, even in a familial way, and lie to her face over and over again in order to cover up an affair that he knows would devastate her emotionally and destroy her life as she knows it. This simply isn't how you treat someone you love, even if it's just a friend or family member.

 

If you would lie to your friend's face, repeatedly and over time, in order to get one over on her, then you are not a friend. We would all agree on that. Same principle applies here. If you would lie, over and over, to your wife in order to get one over on her, then you do not love her. Even in a family way.

 

Only someone lacking empathy can do that to another person. So that's part of what you're seeing. A total lack of empathy. And when there is no empathy, there is no love, IMO.

 

I thought my MM was a man who doesn't lie to his wife. I didn't ask him to confess the A but he did it on his own. He just said it was too weird to lie to her since he had never lied to her before.

However, he wanted to continue the A. I'm pretty sure he would have eventually told his W everything because he's not that great of a liar. His W also sensed that things were different because she knows him better than anyone.

 

I did get out because I didn't want to hurt her anymore than I had already. I mean not only because of the W -I'm not going to lie and say it was just because of moral reasons- I did it for my own sake too. I don't want to continue the A and see what kind of chaos would end up happening. I am staying out of it, although it's still so damn hard.

[Confused9999]

Yes, good point. My mistake was ever sampling the forbidden fruit in the first place - ignorance is bliss

 

Lolol.. Good way to put it...

 

Ignorance is bliss but now it's hard to un-see or un-feel..

I think you are right that time should hopefully stabilize our emotions and desire.

Edited May 11, 2016 by Confused9999

[elaine567]

I think that it's science... Women tend to bond faster and more during sex. It's the high amount of oxytocin they release.

Therefore whether they intentionally start out that way or not.. They will bond more quickly and more strongly then men initially.

Maybe not in a ONS but certainly after a couple of times.

For men it's not the same chemically or frequency... It will take a lot more factors and time.

 

Yes, but most women also have a brain, so whilst oxytocin may indeed tell you who you can trust via sex, if the man in question is obviously NOT relationship material, then catching feelings is not an option.

Women have sex all the time with guys they don't care anything for.

[RecentChange]

I wanted to comment on this "most of the MW's do it for attention"

 

I think I wanted attention from someone who desires me. I know there's someone who gets immediately turned on by me, and even though it's not much it's "not nothing". It's something.

 

Oh this was a huge part for me - yes it was about the sex, but I had this hot young guy just lusting after me, it was a huge ego boost. It made me feel desirable, sexy, and powerful in a way. I didn't love him, but I did love the way he could make me feel about myself.

 

It is not the same as the affair sex I had - and I would never want it to be. That was pure fantasy stuff completely self-indulgent, crazy and unsustainable in the long term. A great adventure, but not the kind of sex that is realistic in a long marriage - you would never have any energy left to do anything else and you would soon tire of each other!

 

Heh, I so often say "well, maybe its because we do not have kids" - but my partner and I had hot hot "fantasy" sex for the first 10 years or so in our relationship - then a multitude of factors put a damper on things.

 

The affair happened - and since then, we are back to the "good old days" and the sex I enjoy is better, more frequent, kinkier, and more satisfying than the affair sex I had (which was... hot hot hot).

 

The affair, the aftermath, and talking it out, sharing our wants, desires, needs, and vision for the future has helped us rekindle what we once had - and explore new, in a way we never really did before.

[lemondrop21]

Heh, I so often say "well, maybe its because we do not have kids" - but my partner and I had hot hot "fantasy" sex for the first 10 years or so in our relationship - then a multitude of factors put a damper on things.

 

The affair happened - and since then, we are back to the "good old days" and the sex I enjoy is better, more frequent, kinkier, and more satisfying than the affair sex I had (which was... hot hot hot).

 

The affair, the aftermath, and talking it out, sharing our wants, desires, needs, and vision for the future has helped us rekindle what we once had - and explore new, in a way we never really did before.

 

I think different kinds of sex work for different couples. If you're into some really kinky stuff and your partner isn't, and that is truly a NEED for you, there could be trouble. But if it's more of a "could be nice on occasion, but not really a need" type of thing, then the situation is workable IMO, as long as you're having some sort of regular, satisfying sex.

[Liam1]

I think more women are grasping the idea of sex alone without the need for "love". Many women of all ages are embracing the FWB/FB culture and cheating events, and are not necessarily "catching feelings" at all.

The number of married women who cheat is increasing too.

I believe the concept of men do it for sex and women do it for love will soon be outdated as more and more women allow themselves to enjoy sex without the need to justify it with "love".

 

I agree with this.

 

The number of married and single women looking for an affair has increased. Not only that... they are becoming very aggressive about approaching married men. At least that has been my experience.

 

Still, my FOW said she only wanted and affair, but later she changed her mind and wanted me to marry her.

 

So, maybe women say one thing and mean another.

 

With that said, obviously there are some women who only want an affair, and can separate sex from love, but I think it is a smaller percentage in comparison to men.

[Confused9999]

Yes, but most women also have a brain, so whilst oxytocin may indeed tell you who you can trust via sex, if the man in question is obviously NOT relationship material, then catching feelings is not an option.

Women have sex all the time with guys they don't care anything for.

 

 

Maybe my experiences are different...

 

Before I got married I had many partners and FWB etc... I'm not talking about ONS.. But ones that I was with miltiple times for weeks or months.

And I would say 75% or more of the time eventually the woman would want more.

Most at one point tell me they can't do this any longer and either we start a real relationship or break it off.

 

In fact that is what happened with my AP as well. (However in that case I had feelings too)

 

 

I assume that when a women gets into a FWB situation with the same guy on a regular basis there is obviously already some sort of attraction, and unless the guy is REALLY not her type the feeling will start happening.

[imperfectangel]

I think most women that say they just want sex are lying either to themselves, their MM or both. Maybe going in they're OK with it but over time I doubt that very much

[ladydesigner]

I think most women that say they just want sex are lying either to themselves, their MM or both. Maybe going in they're OK with it but over time I doubt that very much

 

I decided to have my own A after discovering my WH's first cheating (not sure if it was an A or not) and it started with minor flirting and then PA. I was not attached to xOM in the beginning, but by the end of our A I was definitely attached because of how badly I hurt when he ended it. It also took me a year to get over it.

[imperfectangel]

I decided to have my own A after discovering my WH's first cheating (not sure if it was an A or not) and it started with minor flirting and then PA. I was not attached to xOM in the beginning, but by the end of our A I was definitely attached because of how badly I hurt when he ended it. It also took me a year to get over it.

 

my MM is not the best looking but I've known him so long it makes him more attractive if that makes sense + amazing sex = girl caught feels lol I wish I had never EVER got myself into this situation but before this I always thought I could handle fwb but as a female I don't think it's biologically possible

[Confused9999]

Maybe my experiences are different...

 

Before I got married I had many partners and FWB etc... I'm not talking about ONS.. But ones that I was with miltiple times for weeks or months.

And I would say 75% or more of the time eventually the woman would want more.

Most at one point tell me they can't do this any longer and either we start a real relationship or break it off.

 

In fact that is what happened with my AP as well. (However in that case I had feelings too)

 

 

I assume that when a women gets into a FWB situation with the same guy on a regular basis there is obviously already some sort of attraction, and unless the guy is REALLY not her type the feeling will start happening.

 

Just to add the 25% that did not want a relationship. either the sex was really not that good or there was no spark and connection and we ended it farely quickly!

[stilltrying16]

Good question stilltrying - yes indeed, right to the heart of the problem! And good answer confused - I wish you nothing but the very best, and I understand where you're coming from. I struggled a lot with these type of questions myself.

 

I cheated and have been lucky enough to have been given another chance. Several months into recovery, the sex between my and my W is exactly what I would want it to be. It's great, sweet, loving and satisfying and happens once or twice a week! Perfect for a couple of our age and in our circumstances - kids, busy jobs, etc.

 

It is not the same as the affair sex I had - and I would never want it to be. That was pure fantasy stuff completely self-indulgent, crazy and unsustainable in the long term. A great adventure, but not the kind of sex that is realistic in a long marriage - you would never have any energy left to do anything else and you would soon tire of each other!

 

I know that what I say kind of sounds sh***y like I'm saying that affair sex is off the scale and married sex is just nice and comfortable. I'm not saying that at all. I am saying that I think it is damaging and pointless to compare the antics that we indulge with a new and exciting person, who we know we probably have limited time with, during an illicit, fantasy-based adventure in it's bubble, cut off from the rest of the world, where nothing else matters and no other pressures or external influences exist......to the sexual relationship enjoyed by a couple who may have been together for decades and have all manner of other pressures to attend to - children to feed, jobs to do, MIL to take to the shops, houses/cars to fix, bills to pay, husband's A to deal with, etc. To compare the two would be like comparing a week of taking shots of heroin to a lifetime of eating wholesome meals.

 

Not sure if I'm making sense, but the point I'm trying to make is that it is probably wrong to compare affair sex to long-term married sex and if you use this to measure the health of your marriage or it's likelihood to survive, then you could draw the wrong conclusions.

 

Good luck to everyone. We will beat this!

 

J

 

Thanks for that great post, jenkins! You make this whole mess a little less depressing, and you are kind, as always.

 

I notice that, in these discussions, we often touch on the concept of polyamory or that some folks are simply non-monogamous. This may be true, but to my knowledge, polyamory also involves honesty. Total transparency. So that all involved parties are aware of what is happening. That's the real issue, for me.

 

I do not accept that a man can "love" his wife, even in a familial way, and lie to her face over and over again in order to cover up an affair that he knows would devastate her emotionally and destroy her life as she knows it. This simply isn't how you treat someone you love, even if it's just a friend or family member.

 

If you would lie to your friend's face, repeatedly and over time, in order to get one over on her, then you are not a friend. We would all agree on that. Same principle applies here. If you would lie, over and over, to your wife in order to get one over on her, then you do not love her. Even in a family way.

 

Only someone lacking empathy can do that to another person. So that's part of what you're seeing. A total lack of empathy. And when there is no empathy, there is no love, IMO.

 

As often happens, I completely agree with you Grapes, on all points. The first point, that people cheat even in polyamory, was a shocker to me when I realized it. Whether the relationship was monogamous or polyamorous is irrelevant. Cheating is necessary for each because it produces that high of risk and danger and the forbidden. The best way to get the high is to subscribe to some rules that you then have the pleasure of flouting. If no one is interested in laying down rules you can go against, then the cheater projects those rules on to their poor partner. It's so dehumanizing when the cheater needs to transform the partner being cheated on into nanny/mommy so that she can be the mean enforcer against whom the brave cheating rebellion is launched.

 

I also completely agree with you on the question of empathy. There was a discussion here some weeks ago on whether the cheating epidemic can be explained by lax moral codes in our society. I posted that morality will never be the answer because all it'll do is supply even more rules for the cheater to flout in order to get their thrills. Empathy on the other hand is rarer then dumping one's moral code on others, and empathy takes hard ongoing work. I think ultimately empathy has a better shot at preventing someone from cheating on their partner....

[RecentChange]

as a female I don't think it's biologically possible

 

I disagree. Maybe I am some extreme outlier - or maybe we just do not hear from women with my point of view as often.

 

In my early 20's I had an FB for almost 2 years. We got along pretty well, didn't spend much time together other than in the bedroom. He was smart, quirky, successful - I respected him, and "liked" him enough. Physically, wasn't bad looking, but not really my type. The sex was amazing.

 

I never caught feelings for him - I had what I would call a "brotherly love" for him. In that I did want to see him happy, to find a dream girl, get the white picket fence live happily ever after and all of that - just wasn't going to be me. So, I had sex with him, and gave him dating advice. We would lay in bed and talk about the girls he was seeing (one of which he ended up marrying after I ended our arrangement - when I met someone else). I can't say I ever missed him, missed the sex, sure, but HIM - naw.

 

I had numerous others that came and went, but lasted for months, not years. Some of those guys seemed like they were "catching the feels" and that would usually bring a swift end to it.

 

The "MM" and I, we used to see each other for a hour - 5 days a week. Spent lots of time chatting, etc. Again, I "liked him" as a friend. He was interesting, smart - but I would NEVER want a relationship with him. Just a million differences would make me never consider it. The sex was good, chemistry was great, and he was HOT, really good looking, great body, absolutely my type physically.

 

And towards the end, I guess we did have some feelings for each other. Again, it was the "I care enough about him I want to see him happy" sort of thing. We talked about how we made each other feel desired in ways that had been lacking in our lives - we appreciated the void filling we provided for each other. Miles away from "love" though - and I think the fact it wasn't a struggle to go No Contact - without any closure, any last words, proved to me that I didn't have strong feelings for him. Again, I missed the sex for a bit, but never found myself missing him.

[Confused9999]

I disagree. Maybe I am some extreme outlier - or maybe we just do not hear from women with my point of view as often.

.

 

We are all unique.. Some men are very emotional and get attached fast and some women can have sex with no feelings at all.

 

What we are talking about here is the vast majority of men and women fall into the pattern of:

women = sex leads to emotional attachment

men = sex as pure physical and can be detached from all emotions.

[Poppy47]

I notice that, in these discussions, we often touch on the concept of polyamory or that some folks are simply non-monogamous. This may be true, but to my knowledge, polyamory also involves honesty. Total transparency. So that all involved parties are aware of what is happening. That's the real issue, for me.

 

I do not accept that a man can "love" his wife, even in a familial way, and lie to her face over and over again in order to cover up an affair that he knows would devastate her emotionally and destroy her life as she knows it. This simply isn't how you treat someone you love, even if it's just a friend or family member.

 

If you would lie to your friend's face, repeatedly and over time, in order to get one over on her, then you are not a friend. We would all agree on that. Same principle applies here. If you would lie, over and over, to your wife in order to get one over on her, then you do not love her. Even in a family way.

 

Only someone lacking empathy can do that to another person. So that's part of what you're seeing. A total lack of empathy. And when there is no empathy, there is no love, IMO.

 

Great comment Grapes.

 

In hindsight I found out the MM over 7 years spent all his wedding anniversaries with me. I did not know at the time.

 

It that is loving your wife....?????

 

Poppy

[Poppy47]

I agree with this.

 

The number of married and single women looking for an affair has increased. Not only that... they are becoming very aggressive about approaching married men. At least that has been my experience.

 

Still, my FOW said she only wanted and affair, but later she changed her mind and wanted me to marry her.

 

So, maybe women say one thing and mean another.

 

With that said, obviously there are some women who only want an affair, and can separate sex from love, but I think it is a smaller percentage in comparison to men.

 

Liam

Perhaps she meant what she said in the beginning and then bonded with you?

 

Poppy

[imperfectangel]

Liam

Perhaps she meant what she said in the beginning and then bonded with you?

 

Poppy

 

I think so poppy and tbh Liam I don't understand why you hold this against your OW as if she did something horribly wrong to you. The feelings she developed for you was NATURAL. I fell in love with my MM and trust me my life would be much better if I hadn't!!

[anika99]

Yes, but most women also have a brain, so whilst oxytocin may indeed tell you who you can trust via sex, if the man in question is obviously NOT relationship material, then catching feelings is not an option.

Women have sex all the time with guys they don't care anything for.

 

But we see female posters on LS all of the time who say they started out in what was supposed to be a NSA sexual relationship but then they developed feelings. Of course their are always exceptions and some women are able to completely seperate sex and emotions but most cannot. I can have sex without emotion but not over and over again, on a regular basis, with the same person. Most women I have talked to say the same.

 

Oxytocin has nothing to do with telling you who you can trust for sex, I don't even know what you mean by that. It's doesn't help you measure ones trustworthiness or strength of character. If anything it does the opposite and impedes rational thought and using common sense. This is why it's common to hear women being advised not to rush to sex too quickly in a new relationship. Because once all those feel good chemicals start flooding the brain it's hard to stay objective about the man she is having sex with. She will start viewing him and their relationship through rose tinted lenses. We see it all the time here with female posters posting horrible stories about horrible men but when people tell them that they reply with "nooo, he's wonderful deep down inside and I looove him"

[Grapesofwrath]

Great comment Grapes.

 

In hindsight I found out the MM over 7 years spent all his wedding anniversaries with me. I did not know at the time.

 

It that is loving your wife....?????

 

Poppy

 

Excellent example, Poppy. One wonders how he explained to her why he wasn't spending their anniversary with her.

 

My xMM used to phone home every night, when he was spending the night with me. He would excuse himself to another room and make "a quick call." After the call, he would return to wherever I was, apologize for the interruption, and return to whatever we were doing. No guilt. No internal conflict. Unbelievable compartmentalization.

 

In retrospect, it sickens me to think about the content of those calls. All the lies he told about where he was and what he was doing. All the times he ended those calls with an affectionate "i love you" or "goodnight, sweetie" just to hang up and resume his evening with me. Sometimes he would talk with his kids, too, and lie to them just the same way.

 

Is that loving your spouse? It took me a while to figure out that it wasn't loving her, nor was it loving me.

Edited May 12, 2016 by Grapesofwrath

[Liam1]

I think so poppy and tbh Liam I don't understand why you hold this against your OW as if she did something horribly wrong to you. The feelings she developed for you was NATURAL. I fell in love with my MM and trust me my life would be much better if I hadn't!!

 

I do not hold it against her. I actually feel sorry for her because she seems confused about what she wants.

 

I just do not understand why the switch. She initiated the affair, and adamantly insisted she only wanted an affair and would never ever leave her spouse.

 

I told her the same. I meant it, she did not.

 

Also, after I broke it off, and 'fessed up to my wife, she stalked and tormented my wife. That created a lot of problems.

 

As others have noted I do think a higher percentage of women are more likely to claim they only want an affair but then they eventually want more.

 

With that said, I know my sister dated a man, not exclusively, for many years that she always said was a great friend and great in bed, but that she would never marry. They were FWB and they both dated other people.

 

So I think it is possible for women to separate sex from love.

[elaine567]

But we see female posters on LS all of the time who say they started out in what was supposed to be a NSA sexual relationship but then they developed feelings. Of course their are always exceptions and some women are able to completely seperate sex and emotions but most cannot. I can have sex without emotion but not over and over again, on a regular basis, with the same person. Most women I have talked to say the same.

 

 

But isn't LS a skewed population, as who is going to come here and say "Dear LS, I am in a FWB/FB/NSA relationshp and I am NOT catching feelings for him??? "

 

To Trust or Not to Trust: Ask Oxytocin - Scientific American