Curious about MM/MW mindset

[minimariah]

The fault in the stars is that couples forget to put their relationship above all else. I remember a friend saying to me many many moons ago--If he and I aren't happy no one will be happy. And she was right. I understood her thought process, but that it is not often the norm.

 

GREAT post! after the kids arrive - we so forget about our intimate relationship and passion goes away. sure, those first few months are rough with a new baby and being romantic and sexy is the LAST thing on your mind... but, a couple should find the time to build something new, a new kind of intimacy and to prioritize their romantic relationship. it's so easy to lose each other after having kids.

[SolG]

I think it's a matter of the "growing a tree" concept.

 

You usually don't start out trying to hide things from your spouse.

However the longer you are married the more small things you may decide not to say because either you think they will cause an argument, or you don't think she will like what you are saying, or just thought it's not relevant at this time.

 

But one thing growing into another thing and the whole web of deceit gets bigger and bigger. The more little white lies and the more secrets, with each of them being negligible, but together are growing into a big tree between you!

 

The longer you are married the bigger that tree might be and it's almost impossible to now go back and reveal all. You would not even know where to start and the shock might be too much.

So the typical thing is you just let it be... Until one day it explodes for some reason or another.

 

I bet everyone has these whether their marriage is awesome or not!

 

Intimacy (I use this in the purist sense to mean wholly knowing) is so important, yet the withholding of it so prevalent. And I've come to believe that the withholding in a lot of cases is about the fear of rejection. If I show him/her all of what I truly am and think and do... I fear they won't love me anymore.

 

Which is paradoxical thinking, because on top of the first order effect of reduction in the corresponding intimacy in the R and the damage that does in and of itself, withholding also often leads to other actions that are even more likely to result in rejection. Eg, I'm resentful about <whatever>, but rather than tell him I'll passively aggressively belittle him. I'm incredibly turned on by TG porn and have a deep desire to be sexually submissive, but rather than share this with my partner I'll watch fetish porn illicitly and often until I get caught. I'm afraid/sad/feeling weak and or vulnerable...rather than risk showing my partner my vulnerability... I'll seek solace elsewhere and have an affair.

 

I've posted this quote before on another thread, but I'm going to post it again. Because I'm a fan of Schnarch and I love this quote in particular. I love the imagery of a couple going through the inevitable struggle of growing up and getting to know themselves and each other; and the successful ones making it through the vortex and arriving at that place where they are both individually wholly themselves and together a couple.

 

'Like most of us, neither Betty nor Donald was very mature when they married; neither had really learned the grownup ability to soothe their own emotional anxieties or find their own internal equilibrium during the inevitable conflicts and contretemps of marriage. And, like most couples after a few years of marriage, they made up for their own insecurities by demanding that the other provide constant, unconditional acceptance, empathy, reciprocity and validation to help them each sustain a desired self-image. "I'm okay if, but only if, you think I'm okay," they said, in effect, to each other, and worked doubly hard both to please and be pleased, hide and adapt, shuffle and dance, smile and agree. The more time passes, the more frightened either partner is of letting the other know who he or she really is.

 

This joint back-patting compact works for a while to keep each partner feeling secure, but eventually the game becomes too exhausting to play. Gradually, partners become less inclined to please each other, more resentful of the cost of continually selling themselves out for ersatz peace and tranquility, less willing to put out or give in. To the extent that neither partner has really grown up and is willing to confront his or her own contribution to this growing impasse, however, would prefer to fight with or avoid the other. It's less frightening to blame our mates than to face ourselves. The ensuing "symptoms"--low sexual desire, sexual boredom, control battles, heavy silences--often take on the coloring of a deathly struggle for selfhood, fought on the implicit assumption that there is only room for one whole self in the marriage. "It's going to be my way or no way, my self or no self!" partners say in effect, in bed and out--leading to a kind of classic standoff.

 

Far from being signs of a deeply "pathological" marital breakdown, however, as Donald and Betty were convinced, this stalemate is a normal and inevitable process of growth built into every marriage, as well as a golden opportunity. Like grains of sand inexorably funneling toward the "narrows" of an hourglass, marriage predictably forces couples into a vortex of emotional struggle, where each dares to hold onto himself or herself in the context of each other, in order to grow up. At the narrowest, most constricting part of the funnel--where alienation, stagnation, infidelity, separation and divorce typically occur--couples can begin not only to find their individual selves, but in the process acquire a far greater capacity for love, passion and intimacy with each other than they ever thought possible.

 

At this excruciating point in a marriage, every couple has four options: each partner can try to control the other (Donald's initial ploy, which did not succeed), accommodate even more (Betty had done so to the limits of her tolerance), withdraw physically or emotionally (Betty's job helped her to do this) or learn to soothe his or her own anxiety and not get hijacked by the anxiety of the other. In other words, they could work on growing up, using their marriage as a kind of differentiation fitness center par excellence.

 

Differentiation is a lifelong process by which we become more uniquely ourselves by maintaining ourselves in relationship with those we love. It allows us to have our cake and eat it too, to experience fully our biologically based drives for both emotional connection and individual self-direction. The more differentiated we are--the stronger our sense of self-definition and the better we can hold ourselves together during conflicts with our partners--the more intimacy we can tolerate with someone we love without fear of losing our sense of who we are as separate beings. This uniquely human balancing act is summed up in the striking paradox of our species, that we are famously willing both to die for others, and to die rather than be controlled by others.'

[Got it]

GREAT post! after the kids arrive - we so forget about our intimate relationship and passion goes away. sure, those first few months are rough with a new baby and being romantic and sexy is the LAST thing on your mind... but, a couple should find the time to build something new, a new kind of intimacy and to prioritize their romantic relationship. it's so easy to lose each other after having kids.

 

Sidenote - but I am totally seeing this. Our five month old does not like to sleep. So with breastfeeding and on limited sleep having sex crosses your mind but neither has the energy for it. We so need to bring it back in but we SOOO need this kid to sleep! I can see how it is compounded the more kids you have.

[waterwoman]

Sidenote - but I am totally seeing this. Our five month old does not like to sleep. So with breastfeeding and on limited sleep having sex crosses your mind but neither has the energy for it. We so need to bring it back in but we SOOO need this kid to sleep! I can see how it is compounded the more kids you have.

 

 

Yep! X three is really fun! All of whom were allergic to sleep and didn't really sleep through until they were over 2 years old. And two full-time jobs. And a very 'difficult' no #3 who later turned out to be autistic. I can honestly say I more or less sleep-walked through a whole decade of my life. We kept a regular sex life through out it all but I daresay it was a bit basic and vanilla and there were many times I'd honestly rather have slept......

[Liam1]

Far from being signs of a deeply "pathological" marital breakdown, however, as Donald and Betty were convinced, this stalemate is a normal and inevitable process of growth built into every marriage, as well as a golden opportunity.

 

Like grains of sand inexorably funneling toward the "narrows" of an hourglass, marriage predictably forces couples into a vortex of emotional struggle, where each dares to hold onto himself or herself in the context of each other, in order to grow up.

 

At the narrowest, most constricting part of the funnel--where alienation, stagnation, infidelity, separation and divorce typically occur--couples can begin not only to find their individual selves, but in the process acquire a far greater capacity for love, passion and intimacy with each other than they ever thought possible.'

 

I agree with this.

 

I never fell in love with my affair partner. In fact, after awhile, I actually started to dislike her. My wife seemed so much better by comparison in almost every aspect.

 

In many respects having an affair with someone, actually made me realize that I would prefer to work things out with my wife.

 

Dday was that "golden opportunity"

[Girlfromcali]

I agree with this.

 

I never fell in love with my affair partner. In fact, after awhile, I actually started to dislike her. My wife seemed so much better by comparison in almost every aspect.

 

In many respects having an affair with someone, actually made me realize that I would prefer to work things out with my wife.

 

Dday was that "golden opportunity"

 

Well your wife is better by comparison by the mere fact that she's not a cheater nor a liar...unless she had an A too.

[Liam1]

Well your wife is better by comparison by the mere fact that she's not a cheater nor a liar...unless she had an A too.

 

Ouch!

 

Isn't your post a violation of the respect rules here?

 

Everyone lies. Just ask any trained psychiatrist, pastor or doctor.

 

One reason I love my wife and our marriage survived is because she is the type of person who can recognize her own faults. That is what makes her a good person.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Liam1

[Girlfromcali]

Ouch!

 

Isn't your post a violation of the respect rules here?

 

Everyone lies. Just ask any trained psychiatrist, pastor or doctor.

 

One reason I love my wife and our marriage survived is because she is the type of person who can recognize her own faults. That is what makes her a good person.

 

I don't know if it is or not, I'm just saying the truth. I also recognize my faults but it doesn't make me any better. You don't have to tell me about everyone lying, I know that. However, not everyone cheat, like my H or my MM's W, for instance would never cheat.

[Liam1]

I don't know if it is or not, I'm just saying the truth. I also recognize my faults but it doesn't make me any better. You don't have to tell me about everyone lying, I know that. However, not everyone cheat, like my H or my MM's W, for instance would never cheat.

 

No. Simply the fact that my wife recognizes her faults is not what makes her a good person. What makes her a good person is recognizing her faults and having the ability to endeavor to change them.

 

Just knowing one's faults will not solve a problem. It's actions that solve the problem.

[Girlfromcali]

No. Simply the fact that my wife recognizes her faults is not what makes her a good person. What makes her a good person is recognizing her faults and having the ability to endeavor to change them.

 

Just knowing one's faults will not solve a problem. It's actions that solve the problem.

 

I didn't want to solve anything. My whole M I felt I had no control of anything, and that my H had all the power. I was doing everything he wanted just so I didn't have to face any conflict.

 

And then I ended lashing out and acting out because I felt like I was in prison! I was rebelling. What I should've done, is to take control of my own life. It's like learned helplessness or something.

 

For me the solution is not to be avoidant anymore. I have to become authentic and that involves a great change.

[SolG]

I agree with this.

 

I never fell in love with my affair partner. In fact, after awhile, I actually started to dislike her. My wife seemed so much better by comparison in almost every aspect.

 

In many respects having an affair with someone, actually made me realize that I would prefer to work things out with my wife.

 

Dday was that "golden opportunity"

 

But Schnarch's point is rather that the 'golden opportunity' is inherent in the R itself. An A or other tactic is a missing of, not a taking of it. Taking of the opportunity would be to differentiate; to bite the bullet and exert self, and fully reveal the same despite the fear and pain within the confines of R.

 

Most WSs have the opportunity to at some point before embarking upon an A to do this. To turn to their partner and say I am feeling like <this> about <this>, and the effect is <this>. Eg, I feel hurt/angry/rejected/more and more disconnected from you/etc... due to the fact that we don't have sex anymore/we spend so little time together/I'm still suffering from missing that promotion/my mother died/etc... and I've started emotionally connecting with someone else/wanting to have sex with other people/losing attraction for you/...

 

Conflict avoidance--which gets a lot of airplay--is really just a surface level manifestation. The deeper issue is that to reveal what you are conflicted about and why, is to reveal more of yourself; a part of self that you may never have revealed, and fear revealing as it is perhaps contrary to the constructed projection of who you are individually and as a couple. It is not the fear of conflict itself that drives the avoidance, but rather the fear of the potential consequent rejection.

 

And that fear is valid. There is always the possibility of rejection. But which is more objectionable; to potentially be rejected for who you are, or to be loved for who you are not?

 

The opportunity to differentiate automatically exists, but it takes courage to stand up and reveal who you are warts and all as an individual. It can be painful and conflicting and enormously scary to peel back the layers--dark and light--and say know me... please love me. And show me all that you are... and I'll try to love you. That's intimacy.

 

To get back to your point Liam... An A does not create the 'golden opportunity'; in fact it's a form of bypassing it. You are lucky to have come by another opportunity via a more circuitous route.

Edited May 17, 2016 by SolG

[lemondrop21]

 

Most WSs have the opportunity to at some point before embarking upon an A to do this. To turn to their partner and say I am feeling like <this> about <this>, and the effect is <this>. Eg, I feel hurt/angry/rejected/more and more disconnected from you/etc... due to the fact that we don't have sex anymore/we spend so little time together/I'm still suffering from missing that promotion/my mother died/etc... and I've started emotionally connecting with someone else/wanting to have sex with other people/losing attraction for you/...

 

Conflict avoidance--which gets a lot of airplay--is really just a surface level manifestation. The deeper issue is that to reveal what you are conflicted about and why, is to reveal more of yourself; a part of self that you may never have revealed, and fear revealing as it is perhaps contrary to the constructed projection of who you are individually and as a couple. It is not the fear of conflict itself that drives the avoidance, but rather the fear of the potential consequent rejection.

 

And that fear is valid. There is always the possibility of rejection. But which is more objectionable; to potentially be rejected for who you are, or to be loved for who you are not?

^^Exactly. This, I think, is why MM fell for me. I've asked him multiple times, "why didn't you just talk to her??" (instead of starting an A) It's because he can't open up to her fully. Which is entirely his own fault. I'm sure she would appreciate being with a husband who was being authentic with her even if she didn't agree with or share all of his wants/needs/desires.

[Got it]

I don't know if it is or not, I'm just saying the truth. I also recognize my faults but it doesn't make me any better. You don't have to tell me about everyone lying, I know that. However, not everyone cheat, like my H or my MM's W, for instance would never cheat.

 

Actually it isn't a truth/fact. It is purely your opinion. Let's not confuse the two.

[Liam1]

I didn't want to solve anything. My whole M I felt I had no control of anything, and that my H had all the power. I was doing everything he wanted just so I didn't have to face any conflict.

 

And then I ended lashing out and acting out because I felt like I was in prison! I was rebelling. What I should've done, is to take control of my own life. It's like learned helplessness or something.

 

For me the solution is not to be avoidant anymore. I have to become authentic and that involves a great change.

 

GirlfromCali:

 

You are right about the solution. But I know, easier said than done. I do understand.

 

I wish you luck in finding a path that works for you.

[Liam1]

But Schnarch's point is rather that the 'golden opportunity' is inherent in the R itself. An A or other tactic is a missing of, not a taking of it. Taking of the opportunity would be to differentiate; to bite the bullet and exert self, and fully reveal the same despite the fear and pain within the confines of R.

 

Maybe having an affair, when your spouse refuses sex, is doing just that.

 

Most WSs have the opportunity to at some point before embarking upon an A to do this. To turn to their partner and say I am feeling like <this> about <this>, and the effect is <this>. Eg, I feel hurt/angry/rejected/more and more disconnected from you/etc... due to the fact that we don't have sex anymore/we spend so little time together/I'm still suffering from missing that promotion/my mother died/etc... and I've started emotionally connecting with someone else/wanting to have sex with other people/losing attraction for you/...

Excellent point, but you can not assume that all spouses in relationships have not tried this. I did talk to my wife. I did confront her. I did ask for counseling. She refused. I am not her prison warden. I could not force her.

 

You can lead a horse to water but you can not make her drink.

 

Conflict avoidance--which gets a lot of airplay--is really just a surface level manifestation. The deeper issue is that to reveal what you are conflicted about and why, is to reveal more of yourself; a part of self that you may never have revealed, and fear revealing as it is perhaps contrary to the constructed projection of who you are individually and as a couple. It is not the fear of conflict itself that drives the avoidance, but rather the fear of the potential consequent rejection.

Again, excellent advice, if someone is actually conflict avoidant. One can not assume that all spouses are conflict avoidant. Maybe one is maybe the other is not.

 

The opportunity to differentiate automatically exists, but it takes courage to stand up and reveal who you are warts and all as an individual. It can be painful and conflicting and enormously scary to peel back the layers--dark and light--and say know me... please love me. And show me all that you are... and I'll try to love you. That's intimacy.

Excellent advice, but again, you can not assume that one spouse has not attempted this. It takes two to make this tact work.

 

To get back to your point Liam... An A does not create the 'golden opportunity'; in fact it's a form of bypassing it. You are lucky to have come by another opportunity via a more circuitous route.

I disagree with this conclusion. Opportunity is opportunity, no matter how you describe it. The affair was my golden opportunity. I had already tried other paths. They took me nowhere. The golden opportunity is best if taken withing the relationship, but that is not a possibility unless both are open to it.

 

I am not lucky. I created the opportunity.

 

I did not wait around. I took action. The action could have destroyed my marriage, I knew that. I was okay with that because continuing the marriage without intimacy was already destroying it beyond repair.

 

The affair was what it took to make my wife stop being avoidant about the issue. It woke her up and she finally agreed to counseling.

[ladydesigner]

Maybe having an affair, when your spouse refuses sex, is doing just that.

Excellent point, but you can not assume that all spouses in relationships have not tried this. I did talk to my wife. I did confront her. I did ask for counseling. She refused. I am not her prison warden. I could not force her.

 

You can lead a horse to water but you can not make her drink.

 

Again, excellent advice, if someone is actually conflict avoidant. One can not assume that all spouses are conflict avoidant. Maybe one is maybe the other is not.

 

Excellent advice, but again, you can not assume that one spouse has not attempted this. It takes two to make this tact work.

 

I disagree with this conclusion. Opportunity is opportunity, no matter how you describe it. The affair was my golden opportunity. I had already tried other paths. They took me nowhere. The golden opportunity is best if taken withing the relationship, but that is not a possibility unless both are open to it.

 

I am not lucky. I created the opportunity.

 

I did not wait around. I took action. The action could have destroyed my marriage, I knew that. I was okay with that because continuing the marriage without intimacy was already destroying it beyond repair.

 

The affair was what it took to make my wife stop being avoidant about the issue. It woke her up and she finally agreed to counseling.

 

An A by nature is designed to end a M so by that token, if a person wishes to embark on an A that is all fine and dandy, but don't expect the M to stay in tact after something like that.

 

My WH did not tell me how desperate and lost he felt. I was feeling the same way, I felt abandoned my WH was never home and I had to take care of the kids by myself and work an 8 hour day too! Feeling in the mood for sex wasn't a top priority because my WH was not making me feel like top priority. He chose to step out while I was begging him to tell me what was wrong. He always led me to believe he was stressed out at work.

[Liam1]

An A by nature is designed to end a M so by that token, if a person wishes to embark on an A that is all fine and dandy, but don't expect the M to stay in tact after something like that.

 

Is it designed to end the marriage? It may and it may not. Personally, an affair would not be a deal breaker for me. If my spouse said she was in love with someone else. That would be a deal breaker. But just sex? No.

 

My WH did not tell me how desperate and lost he felt. I was feeling the same way, I felt abandoned my WH was never home and I had to take care of the kids by myself and work an 8 hour day too!

This is where counseling can help. But again, both parties have to be open to counseling.

[Confused9999]

An A by nature is designed to end a M so by that token, if a person wishes to embark on an A that is all fine and dandy, but don't expect the M to stay in tact after something like that.

 

My WH did not tell me how desperate and lost he felt. I was feeling the same way, I felt abandoned my WH was never home and I had to take care of the kids by myself and work an 8 hour day too! Feeling in the mood for sex wasn't a top priority because my WH was not making me feel like top priority. He chose to step out while I was begging him to tell me what was wrong. He always led me to believe he was stressed out at work.

 

I guess you have not read this thread carefully.

 

An affair from a man's perspective usually does not mean he wants to end the marriage!

It can mean he is not getting sex, it can mean he wants variety, it can mean he is bored... It can mean many things!

 

Also like Liam pointed out, it takes 2 to tango. If you voice concerns to spouce and they don't take them seriously, or don't prioritize them then what choice do you have?

1. Divorce and leave

2. If concerns are not so serious as to divorce over, then you go to plan B. Maybe an affair...

[ladydesigner]

I guess you have not read this thread carefully.

 

An affair from a man's perspective usually does not mean he wants to end the marriage!

It can mean he is not getting sex, it can mean he wants variety, it can mean he is bored... It can mean many things!

 

Also like Liam pointed out, it takes 2 to tango. If you voice concerns to spouce and they don't take them seriously, or don't prioritize them then what choice do you have?

1. Divorce and leave

2. If concerns are not so serious as to divorce over, then you go to plan B. Maybe an affair...

 

Hmmm maybe I should have another A because my needs aren't getting met and I'm not ready to divorce yet! Maybe that will wake my WH up.

Edited May 18, 2016 by ladydesigner
Misspelling

[stilltrying16]

I guess you have not read this thread carefully.

 

An affair from a man's perspective usually does not mean he wants to end the marriage!

It can mean he is not getting sex, it can mean he wants variety, it can mean he is bored... It can mean many things!

 

Also like Liam pointed out, it takes 2 to tango. If you voice concerns to spouce and they don't take them seriously, or don't prioritize them then what choice do you have?

1. Divorce and leave

2. If concerns are not so serious as to divorce over, then you go to plan B. Maybe an affair...

 

Confused, I have a question about #2. Who decides if the concerns are, or are not serious enough to divorce over? Should it really be just one partner (the future wayward) making a unilateral decision?

 

If my partner told me I wasn't satisfying some of his needs, and I wasn't willing to change myself to do so, then I would be perfectly ok giving him the freedom to have those needs met elsewhere. Or if I didn't want to satisfy those needs and didn't want him to look elsewhere, I would choose divorce over an affair. But I feel I should have the choice.

[ladydesigner]

Is it designed to end the marriage? It may and it may not. Personally, an affair would not be a deal breaker for me. If my spouse said she was in love with someone else. That would be a deal breaker. But just sex? No.

 

This is where counseling can help. But again, both parties have to be open to counseling.

 

It may not end the M but it kills something in most BS's. I have not been able to feel the same way I felt for my WH since I discovered that he was unfaithful. I haven't been able to live my life as efficiently as I used to and I have been in many years of therapy (haven't been for this last year unfortunately) and am still on my meds because if I go off of them my obsessive thoughts about my WH's LTA come back.

 

I wonder Liam if your wife has any resentment for your A and if she beats herself up about it because she was withholding sex.

[Confused9999]

Confused, I have a question about #2. Who decides if the concerns are, or are not serious enough to divorce over? Should it really be just one partner (the future wayward) making a unilateral decision?

 

If my partner told me I wasn't satisfying some of his needs, and I wasn't willing to change myself to do so, then I would be perfectly ok giving him the freedom to have those needs met elsewhere. Or if I didn't want to satisfy those needs and didn't want him to look elsewhere, I would choose divorce over an affair. But I feel I should have the choice.

 

That's good question!

 

So for example I hear this a lot in forums.(this is not a personal example). husband wants sex, and wife refuses. She thinks its not a big deal, and its only sex, and once every x amount of time should be good enough.

 

So husband tries and tries and gets rejected. The rest of the marriage seems ok and kids are involved.

 

So what is the next step? Husband tries ... wife does not think it's a priority or a problem.

The A in this case is probably a wake up call for her to say "hey, snap out of it... its a serious problem for ME!"

 

This scenario is actually very common in these forums.

 

 

 

I should also add... there is a choice #3

3,. STFU and live with it, if serious enough then start getting resentful and bitter, and then back to choice 1 or 2

Edited May 18, 2016 by Confused9999

[Liam1]

[quote=ladydesigner;6909353

 

I wonder Liam if your wife has any resentment for your A and if she beats herself up about it because she was withholding sex.

 

She has told our counselor that she "beats herself up" about ignoring the sexual aspect of our relationship.

[Liam1]

Confused, I have a question about #2. Who decides if the concerns are, or are not serious enough to divorce over? Should it really be just one partner (the future wayward) making a unilateral decision?

 

 

My wife made a unilateral decision that sexual intimacy was not an important part of a marriage. To her it was so unimportant that it was non-existent.

 

So why should I not be entitled to make a unilateral decision about getting sex elsewhere?

 

BTW, as I have said many times before, I did not feel I was taking anything away from her because she made it clear that she was no longer interested in sex and felt it was a "silly" aspect of a marriage. Silly being her word.

 

She said many times, however, that she did not want a divorce, when asked.

 

Marriage is about compromise. Still, you can not force compromise.

 

An affair will either save a marriage or blow it up.

 

According to a large percentage of marriage counselors affairs ,when a marriage is at an impasse, typically break the impasse.

 

Once that impasse is broken through the marriages that survive, and are improved in many ways.

 

The marriages that end, likely improve the lives of those who divorced because it frees them to find someone who may be more compatible.

 

Either way, it solved a problem.

[Girlfromcali]

Liam, I wouldn't really have any emotional feelings about your A because you had an A because of sex. I don't know how that would feel like, but honestly, I don't really put too much value in my own SO having sex with someone else. I mean if it's just sex..

 

Now, if they go telling their AP that she's their soulmate, and they want to have her in a real way, introduce her to his family as his woman, then that's a different thing. Or at least it used to mean a different thing for me. Now it would be the same since I know how most of them are. You are an exception.

 

I listened to his words. Never ever did he say that it was just sex. He said it wasn't just sex, that he had never felt that way, and that there was something special about me that made him do what he did.

 

I don't even consider what you did bad tbh..