Why do some women feel like they have to compete with other women?

[blackcat777]

Beauty school would have been a terrible experience for me, if I had gone when I was freshly out of high school and insecure.

[guitardude31]

I will say this, and ive seen it in my work and personal life, that you often find women who will say they don't have many female friends because they simply don't like and or get along with most of them. It's almost a cliche really. There are, of course, exceptions to anything. You generally won't find many guys, if any, who say they have mostly female friends because they just can't get along with all those drama queens known as men , heh. We are just wired a bit differently I think.

[NTV]

that you often find women who will say they don't have many female friends because they simply don't like and or get along with most of them

 

 

 

Dude, having been married to one that said this (I was early 20s I didn't know), this is code for 'I need constant attention and validation from dudes, and if you stop feeding that too me I will find another man.'

 

 

So if you hear this... duck and run.

[Cocoaflavareena]

I hate women like this .

I love giving compliments ! I'm such a sweetheart . I've ALWAYS had a caring heart it's a beautiful thing and very ugly trait, to be all jealous and envious of others .

[cocorico]

I've seen this before, but not in the particular group of people you mention. In fact, it was the opposite.

 

In fact, I've mostly seen it in single women or in second, third etc. wives.

 

The women in that position who are secure feel no need to lob insults at the first wife- or the wife who came before them- as they are secure in their relationship and don't feel a need to compete with her. She is no longer an issue, so why even bring her up at all? these women have happy marriages and are too busy to worry about what the ex did.

 

It's the ones that can't resist bringing up this particular woman who obviously feel that she still matters in her life and that she still feels a need to compete with her. Some might eve go so far as to call that jealousy.

 

The opposite is also true. To see this, all one needs to do is to look at the second wives on this site who discuss their marriage without even mentioning the first wife. She is no longer relevant therefore doesn't factor into the conversations. She may have been hell on wheels, but she's in the rear view mirror and no longer matters.

 

I guess the extent to which the xW remains, or becomes, a presence in the life of the H and W depends on the extent to which the xW insists on making her presence felt. If the xW is constructive, moves on with her life, acts in the best interests of the kids (if there are any) and stays within bounds of the law, all' good and the couple can get on with their lives and act in the best interests of any kids. I'm betting those couples are the ones who hardly mention xW, and hardly think of her, if at all. But where the xW is so aggrieved that she's been "replaced" (as she sees it) that she feels the need to continue to insert her unwelcome presence in the lives of her xH and his W, and to upset the kids, against everyone's wishes (and there have been such xW on these boards - linking is not allowed, but I'm sure everyone knows which threads I'm referring to) then those couples are more likely to post about the xW if they're on these boards - she just hasn't allowed them to forget her.

 

It's unlikely to be jealousy or competition at the heart of it for the W - after all, any "competition" was over when the H made it clear whom he wanted to be with - but more likely to be venting about the xW who won't go away, who refuses to give up and accept the result of the "competition" that carries on in the xW's mind - much like a sore loser who won't accept loss and insist on playing another round, and another, and another, until they win one day....

[wmacbride]

I guess the extent to which the xW remains, or becomes, a presence in the life of the H and W depends on the extent to which the xW insists on making her presence felt. If the xW is constructive, moves on with her life, acts in the best interests of the kids (if there are any) and stays within bounds of the law, all' good and the couple can get on with their lives and act in the best interests of any kids. I'm betting those couples are the ones who hardly mention xW, and hardly think of her, if at all. But where the xW is so aggrieved that she's been "replaced" (as she sees it) that she feels the need to continue to insert her unwelcome presence in the lives of her xH and his W, and to upset the kids, against everyone's wishes (and there have been such xW on these boards - linking is not allowed, but I'm sure everyone knows which threads I'm referring to) then those couples are more likely to post about the xW if they're on these boards - she just hasn't allowed them to forget her.

 

It's unlikely to be jealousy or competition at the heart of it for the W - after all, any "competition" was over when the H made it clear whom he wanted to be with - but more likely to be venting about the xW who won't go away, who refuses to give up and accept the result of the "competition" that carries on in the xW's mind - much like a sore loser who won't accept loss and insist on playing another round, and another, and another, until they win one day....

 

hmmm...

 

Not saying that doesn't happen, but it's pretty obvious when a current w is jealous of the former w and continuously brings her up, even when it isn't relevant and takes any and every opportunity to do so. It reaches a point where anyone can see it's just another situation where the new wife sees herself as being in competition with the old, and takes shots at her, even if not necessary or relevant to the conversation. It becomes even more apparent when the second wife constantly compares herself with the first wife, running the first wife down.

 

This smacks of insecurity and low self esteem. It's as if the only way a person can build themselves and their lives up is to tear others down.

 

To bring this back to my first post, the friend I mentioned is confident and secure in herself, as uses that to build up the women around her, and takes great pleasure from doing so.

 

She is a second wife. Even though his first wife was hell on wheels who is often a thorn in their sides, and her husband's fist marriage ended some years before he even met my friend, I have never once heard her speak about the first wife in a negative way. Rather, the few times she did speak of her, it was with comparison. She knows they are not in competition, and this is why she has room in her heart for this empathy.

[minimariah]

...she just hasn't allowed them to forget her.

 

this isn't always the case in real life -- it's not always the xW's fault. i see a lot of xW's who are respectful, who moved on with their lives... & the OW's behavior is STILL troubling. i don't think it's about competing - it's more about the inability to accept that the partner had an entire life before you.

 

when there are no kids - it's easy. you divorce and you don't have to see each other ever again; with kids... you gotta have a certain relationship with the other parent (meaning the ex-); in most cases, parents are average. meaning, they are both present in their children's lives, situations with abusive parents are in special category and i'm not writing about that.

 

BUT - there is one very common trait with exclusively second wives: the need to make the previous life of their partner, the previous marriage... meaningless, in order to make their own union better. they have this very obvious "well... he didn't even know what LIFE is until he met me!" attitude. they struggle to accept the fact that their partner once loved the ex- & was happy in the union. it also rubs off on the partners - i've had people going from telling me that they loved their ex- until they didn't, they had happy memories but it just didn't work out... to pretty much saying that their entire life before meeting the current wife was absolute misery: then you meet the current wife and everything becomes crystal clear.

 

it's not easy to date a man who had a life before you - it's also not easy to be a stepparent; many stepparents refuse to respect the boundaries of the other parent & do some blatant parental alienation. many try to limit the contact between their partner and their ex- out of some kind of fear of something more developing (2nd, 3rd wives aren't necessarily the OWs).

 

so... it's a lot more complicated then it being a nutjob BS who won't let the new couple breathe. and the point isn't in forgeting - it's in accepting and most folks simply cannot do that. they literally stress themselves out trying to find a balance between respecting the partner's previous life + building a unique one of their own.

Edited May 23, 2016 by minimariah

[cocorico]

 

Not saying that doesn't happen

 

 

It clearly does. We've all seen it on here, and some of us have lived it, too. I long for the day my H's xW feels secure enough and happy enough in her own life for us no longer to be the centre of her life. She has recently moved in with a new partner, so we're all holding thumbs

[Aniela]

It clearly does. We've all seen it on here, and some of us have lived it, too. I long for the day my H's xW feels secure enough and happy enough in her own life for us no longer to be the centre of her life. She has recently moved in with a new partner, so we're all holding thumbs

 

Do you really think you'd be absolutely fine, if your husband cheated on you? And left you for another woman? Has it happened to you before?

[wmacbride]

It clearly does. We've all seen it on here, and some of us have lived it, too. I long for the day my H's xW feels secure enough and happy enough in her own life for us no longer to be the centre of her life. She has recently moved in with a new partner, so we're all holding thumbs

 

 

I suspect that if she was the one being asked, a very different picture of the situation would arise. I'm not saying it would be any more accurate than yours, but more that there are always three sides to every story, even this one. It has hers, yours and the truth, which likely lies somewhere in the middle.

[wmacbride]

this isn't always the case in real life -- it's not always the xW's fault. i see a lot of xW's who are respectful, who moved on with their lives... & the OW's behavior is STILL troubling. i don't think it's about competing - it's more about the inability to accept that the partner had an entire life before you.

 

when there are no kids - it's easy. you divorce and you don't have to see each other ever again; with kids... you gotta have a certain relationship with the other parent (meaning the ex-); in most cases, parents are average. meaning, they are both present in their children's lives, situations with abusive parents are in special category and i'm not writing about that.

 

BUT - there is one very common trait with exclusively second wives: the need to make the previous life of their partner, the previous marriage... meaningless, in order to make their own union better. they have this very obvious "well... he didn't even know what LIFE is until he met me!" attitude. they struggle to accept the fact that their partner once loved the ex- & was happy in the union. it also rubs off on the partners - i've had people going from telling me that they loved their ex- until they didn't, they had happy memories but it just didn't work out... to pretty much saying that their entire life before meeting the current wife was absolute misery: then you meet the current wife and everything becomes crystal clear.

 

it's not easy to date a man who had a life before you - it's also not easy to be a stepparent; many stepparents refuse to respect the boundaries of the other parent & do some blatant parental alienation. many try to limit the contact between their partner and their ex- out of some kind of fear of something more developing (2nd, 3rd wives aren't necessarily the OWs).

 

so... it's a lot more complicated then it being a nutjob BS who won't let the new couple breathe. and the point isn't in forgeting - it's in accepting and most folks simply cannot do that. they literally stress themselves out trying to find a balance between respecting the partner's previous life + building a unique one of their own.

 

This makes a lot of sense.

 

I have seen it, even in people who are in long term relationships that are dating. It can be hard to swallow that, in many cases, you are not your partner's first love.

[minimariah]

I have seen it, even in people who are in long term relationships that are dating. It can be hard to swallow that, in many cases, you are not your partner's first love.

 

absolutely - especially when it's right there... in your face. thinking about the fact that your partner had a happy first marriage at some point, that he was in love enough to get married and to have children with his 1st spouse... it just doesn't sit well with many. there are, of course, many 2nd wives & 3rd and so on... who have no issues accepting the ex- & their partner's previous life. and many xW's are problematic.

 

but more often than not... new partners have issues adapting, too. with or without a nasty xW. i remember when my dear friend - who was pregnant at the time - told me that she was afraid that her partner wasn't as excited as she was because he already had a child. and she felt some type of way about the fact that he already went through all the pregnancy and baby related things with someone else. and she thought about it a lot. it wasn't even a negativity, it wasn't a competition... but just awareness that your partner had an entire family before you. i really do see it often.

[Got it]

absolutely - especially when it's right there... in your face. thinking about the fact that your partner had a happy first marriage at some point, that he was in love enough to get married and to have children with his 1st spouse... it just doesn't sit well with many. there are, of course, many 2nd wives & 3rd and so on... who have no issues accepting the ex- & their partner's previous life. and many xW's are problematic.

 

but more often than not... new partners have issues adapting, too. with or without a nasty xW. i remember when my dear friend - who was pregnant at the time - told me that she was afraid that her partner wasn't as excited as she was because he already had a child. and she felt some type of way about the fact that he already went through all the pregnancy and baby related things with someone else. and she thought about it a lot. it wasn't even a negativity, it wasn't a competition... but just awareness that your partner had an entire family before you. i really do see it often.

 

I think if kids are involved it is paramount for the adults to try and get along. I see how well my parents get along after divorce and how much the family still does together and hope that we can do so with my husband his his ex wife. I know that there are many success stories out there where people are able to move on and be quite chummy. I know that, for the kids, this would make them the happiest. Luckily we can all interact fairly well and with the occasional pot shot made at my husband's expense all is fine. Time can and does improve most things if everyone desires it.

 

I hope for the day, and I think we are close to it, where we can even vacation together which the kids would love. They are all adults now, the last ones heading to college, so they are going to dictate how much the parents get to see them so if we don't start bending to their desires and wishes then we may limit how much time we get with them. Plus I want them to be involved in their baby sister's life as much as possible. It melts my heart to see and hear her similarities with them and what makes her different. It is this amazing circle of life that now gives me post natal crying jags!

[cocorico]

Do you really think you'd be absolutely fine, if your husband cheated on you? And left you for another woman? Has it happened to you before?

 

No, it has not happened to me before, but I have no doubt I'd be fine. I'm with him because I choose to be, not because I need to be.

[wmacbride]

I think if kids are involved it is paramount for the adults to try and get along. I see how well my parents get along after divorce and how much the family still does together and hope that we can do so with my husband his his ex wife. I know that there are many success stories out there where people are able to move on and be quite chummy. I know that, for the kids, this would make them the happiest. Luckily we can all interact fairly well and with the occasional pot shot made at my husband's expense all is fine. Time can and does improve most things if everyone desires it.

 

I hope for the day, and I think we are close to it, where we can even vacation together which the kids would love. They are all adults now, the last ones heading to college, so they are going to dictate how much the parents get to see them so if we don't start bending to their desires and wishes then we may limit how much time we get with them. Plus I want them to be involved in their baby sister's life as much as possible. It melts my heart to see and hear her similarities with them and what makes her different. It is this amazing circle of life that now gives me post natal crying jags!

 

I couldn't help but laugh at the last sentence. I've been there too. When my first child was born, I remember crying a couple of days later because one day, she;d be all grown and not a baby any more. Then I cried because she was crying . then I cried because it was raining out. then I just cried because I could.

 

I think I might have become a little bit dehydrated from all that crying:laugh:

 

I think my husband must have thought I was going a little but nutty.

[Got it]

I couldn't help but laugh at the last sentence. I've been there too. When my first child was born, I remember crying a couple of days later because one day, she;d be all grown and not a baby any more. Then I cried because she was crying . then I cried because it was raining out. then I just cried because I could.

 

I think I might have become a little bit dehydrated from all that crying:laugh:

 

I think my husband must have thought I was going a little but nutty.

 

Don't get me started on the first days afterwards! I would be crying telling my husband to ignore me I didn't even know what I was crying about!

 

Hearing her cry still makes me tear up, I am so bad at the doctor's office. Poor thing, dealing with being scoped and her screams are just awful. I start sobbing while trying to be strong for her.

 

Luckily she is such a happy baby and laughs all the time now. So in love with her. Her daddy is completely smitten as well. He was so sad with his kids getting older and becoming adults so he has become so cuddly with her as he is really slowing down and just enjoying the moments that, when you are younger, you don't always do/able to do.

 

She is wonderfully spoiled rotten by everyone.

[Taramere]

I'm somewhat ashamed to admit it, but I used this competitiveness to my advantage in my late twenties. I had not been successful with women before and I found that putting women into competition with other women yielded results. I've outgrown that approach now and I imagine it would not work on the women I'm currently attracted to.

 

I think when people are younger, it's very common for them to encourage competitiveness in that way - as part of the courtship process. The problem, as you've found, is that the people who respond to it aren't necessarily the ones you would want to have a long term relationship with.

 

From observation, I'd say that the most competitive women tend to have lacked a father figure in their lives. Or else, if their father has been present, have found it very hard to get his attention/approval and he showed marked preference for another sibling. My most problematic friendships or relationships (eg my sister-in-law) have always been with women who, if I found out anything about their background at all, tended to have a background like that.

 

It's exhausting to deal with. You feel as though you're treading on eggshells, because you know that any time something goes well for you - they're going to take it as some kind of personal slight. Historically I've put way too much energy into pandering to/attempting to cultivate better relationships with women like that. Now I tend to just avoid them as much as possible...and my life is a lot more pleasant and chilled out as a result.

 

A lot of people I know perceive my boss as that sort of woman. She's aggressive and competitive, but in the way a guy is. She's more comfortable around men quite simply because she's got a lot of masculine qualities - but when you can accept that about her, she's pretty easy to get along with. I remember my brother asked me to get my boss to do a piece of (paid) work for him. Her answer was "no, because it's pretty clear from what you've told me that his wife can't stand you - and so you can guarantee that whatever work we as a firm do for the pair of them, she'll be finding fault with it."

 

Absolutely spot on assessment...and one that I've subsequently used as a reference point on a number of occasions. Whereas previously I would try to win the good opinion/approval of women who I suspect feel very competitive towards me, now I just try to minimise my dealings with them. If they're clients, I'll try to find an ethical reason to resign from acting for them. If they're in my social or familial circle I'll be civil but keep my distance...and will resist the effort to try to build up any sort of friendship/sisterly relationship with them. Life's just too short to deal with them.

[cocorico]

I think when people are younger, it's very common for them to encourage competitiveness in that way - as part of the courtship process.

 

Interesting observation. I wonder if that is true across cultural contexts? I must confess, I didn't notice that when I was growing up - which doesn't (necessarily) mean it wasn't there, just that my focus was elsewhere. What I did notice, though, was the "competition" around having to have a BF - any old BF, even a made-up one. Not having (or not claiming to have) a BF automatically marked you out as being second order, or worse. I remember being accused, when I was 10, of being a lesbian because I hadn't declared my interest in any of the boys in class... As we got older, it moved on from just "having" a BF to what you'd done with said BF, and as someone whose competitive drive operated in completely other ways, I was always left rather bemused on the sidelines, looking on...

[William]

The topic is why some women feel like they have to compete with each other and is placed as a general topic in our general relationship discussion forum. Personal meta-discussions can be effected via our private message system. Members wishing to discuss their personal relationships can start topics on their relationships and request comments or advice. Thanks!

[serial muse]

From observation, I'd say that the most competitive women tend to have lacked a father figure in their lives. Or else, if their father has been present, have found it very hard to get his attention/approval and he showed marked preference for another sibling. My most problematic friendships or relationships (eg my sister-in-law) have always been with women who, if I found out anything about their background at all, tended to have a background like that.

 

Hm. I found this very interesting. I'm sure it's true in many cases, but it's particularly interesting to me because it so isn't true in mine. I've never been competitive with women in this way, or had difficulty with close friendships with women. But I fit that profile, in the sense of having an absentee father.

 

I have actually chalked that up to some extent to the fact that he wasn't around. Growing up, it was just me, my mom, my sister, and my grandmother. There was pretty much zero sexual competition or concept of it in our household; I was shy around men, I suppose, because I didn't have much experience of them. But I certainly never felt like I needed to grab men's attention, specifically - there was no sense of urgency about this for me whatsoever. Instead, I had lots of close female friends (several of whom I'm still friends with after three decades).

 

It's sort of the same principle behind all-women's colleges I suppose. Not that I'm advocating for that experience vs. co-ed college...in my case, I feel that I needed to get more comfy around men and so a co-ed university was a good choice for me. But I see the principle. Whether it's nature or nurture for women to alter their behaviors around men and become grossly competitive with each other, of course, is another topic entirely.

 

I can imagine, perhaps, that the story for me might have been quite different had a father been present yet indifferent or capricious in his attentions to his kids, and created a sense of urgency or desperation for his attention. It could have gone either way, I suppose.

Edited May 27, 2016 by serial muse

[wmacbride]

Hm. I found this very interesting. I'm sure it's true in many cases, but it's particularly interesting to me because it so isn't true in mine. I've never been competitive with women in this way, or had difficulty with close friendships with women. But I fit that profile, in the sense of having an absentee father.

 

I have actually chalked that up to some extent to the fact that he wasn't around. Growing up, it was just me, my mom, my sister, and my grandmother. There was pretty much zero sexual competition or concept of it in our household; I was shy around men, I suppose, because I didn't have much experience of them. But I certainly never felt like I needed to grab men's attention, specifically - there was no sense of urgency about this for me whatsoever. Instead, I had lots of close female friends (several of whom I'm still friends with after three decades).

 

It's sort of the same principle behind all-women's colleges I suppose. Not that I'm advocating for that experience vs. co-ed college...in my case, I feel that I needed to get more comfy around men and so a co-ed university was a good choice for me. But I see the principle. Whether it's nature or nurture for women to alter their behaviors around men and become grossly competitive with each other, of course, is another topic entirely.

 

I can imagine, perhaps, that the story for me might have been quite different had a father been present yet indifferent or capricious in his attentions to his kids, and created a sense of urgency or desperation for his attention. It could have gone either way, I suppose.

 

That's an interesting point. I wonder if anyone has ever looked into a corelation between the two.

 

In a family dynamic where the dad is around, but not much or emotionally distant and the daughters/ mother feel like they have to compete with one another to get his attention. That behavior could carry over to adulthood, where the now grown women still feel like they always need to compete for the attention of men.

[Taramere]

Interesting observation. I wonder if that is true across cultural contexts? I must confess, I didn't notice that when I was growing up - which doesn't (necessarily) mean it wasn't there, just that my focus was elsewhere. What I did notice, though, was the "competition" around having to have a BF - any old BF, even a made-up one. Not having (or not claiming to have) a BF automatically marked you out as being second order, or worse. I remember being accused, when I was 10, of being a lesbian because I hadn't declared my interest in any of the boys in class... As we got older, it moved on from just "having" a BF to what you'd done with said BF, and as someone whose competitive drive operated in completely other ways, I was always left rather bemused on the sidelines, looking on...

 

So you chose not to compete, or weren't interested in competing, but it sounds as though you were still conscious of the pressure to compete. Other girls demonstrating that they had a boyfriend, were sexually active etc. And, of course, there tend to be the same pressures on boys.

 

Hm. I found this very interesting. I'm sure it's true in many cases, but it's particularly interesting to me because it so isn't true in mine. I've never been competitive with women in this way, or had difficulty with close friendships with women. But I fit that profile, in the sense of having an absentee father.

 

I have actually chalked that up to some extent to the fact that he wasn't around. Growing up, it was just me, my mom, my sister, and my grandmother. There was pretty much zero sexual competition or concept of it in our household

 

Yeah I can definitely see how pressure would be eased off in an environment like that. Especially if it was a nurturing and supportive one. The lack of a father in the family doesn't necessarily mean a child will grow up to be an insecure adult, if the existing adult support network is a nurturing and affirmative one.

 

I think competitiveness is part basic temperament (people who are naturally more aggressive and inclined to joust for leadership are bound to have a more competitive streak to them) and part insecurity. "I need to be better than other women to prove to myself that I'm okay - whether that means being able to take their boyfriends from them, or being thinner than them, or having a nicer house, or a better job, or being regarded as a better girlfriend/wife/mother than other women..."

 

I remember reading a review about a book about the witch trials of long ago. There was an anecdote along the lines of "A brings a gift of a cake round to B's house. B perceives this as a slur on her own baking abilities. A grudge develops, snowballs and eventually culminates in B accusing A of witchcraft."

 

And who knows what the dynamic there was? Maybe A was having it off with B's husband and being none too discreet about it. Maybe the gift of the cake really was a slur on B's baking abilities and a message to B's husband ("I'd be a better wife to you"), and proved to be the final straw. Or maybe A was just a friendly lady who thought it would be neighbourly to visit B with the gift of some home bakes...and got more than she bargained for.

[wmacbride]

The whole competition between women reminds me of the show "Keeping Up Appearances" where the main character, Ms. Hyacinth Bucket, constantly tries to convince herself that she is socially better than everyone else. She's so insecure and terrified that someone will find out her background that she goes to huge lengths to hide it.