Women supporting women?

[purplesorrow]

I didn't say "all" or "most," I just said that I think these are two factors that tend to come up when it comes to some of the responses by BW's to the OW and their spouse after reconciliation. Since you didn't reconcile, I can see why you think these don't apply to you, which is fine.

 

 

If the secret is found out then the marriage runs a chance of being over. By still taking that risk, then he is making a definite statement that the reward despite the risk and the secrecy is worth risking the marriage.

 

 

I do think the "secret" label thrown around as a means to minimize everything is a bit of a distraction, though. Secret or not, it was worth risking the marriage for, so if everybody knows or they know, it doesn't make the impact any less and that doesn't make the relationship any less legitimate or less "valid." If everybody knows about the affair or doesn't really doesn't matter on the impact the affair has.

 

He didn't think he was risking anything because he didn't think he would be caught. Secret is just that, secret. Not meant to minimize nor distract. She was flattered to be asked for a sex only relationship. Chased him after he ended. I would call that less valid. Finally moved onto another husband where she is now being sued by his bw.

[minimariah]

Couldn't be more wrong here.

 

is she really...? because this part --

 

I also think there's truth to the competition idea that, as a BS, you immediately want to win back what was yours as a way to reaffirm superiority.

 

sounds a lot like hysterical bonding which we read about often... no?

[elaine567]

Sometimes it really is just on the person that cheated. Not every spouse was being neglectful.

 

I agree, I believe the likelihood of "cheating" is built in to the person themselves and not necessarily anything to do with the circumstances they find themselves in.

[purplesorrow]

is she really...? because this part --

 

 

 

sounds a lot like hysterical bonding which we read about often... no?

 

Not at my house. I know a lot of women and men that were the same. So no, it isn't true for every one.

[Lady Hamilton]

He didn't think he was risking anything because he didn't think he would be caught. Secret is just that, secret. Not meant to minimize nor distract. She was flattered to be asked for a sex only relationship. Chased him after he ended. I would call that less valid. Finally moved onto another husband where she is now being sued by his bw.

 

Thinking he'd get caught or not doesn't change the fact that he knows by having an affair, he could detonate his marriage and he's choosing to take that risk because he doesn't care or, in this case, doesn't think he'll be caught. Either way, he's saying the risk and hassle is worth the reward of the affair, either actively making that choice, or passively, by having the affair knowing it could result in a divorce.

 

 

The secret thing is a non-factor no matter how you slice it, especially since the most common reason for it being secret is to avoid hassle. If anything, it's further confirmation that they're not invested in the marriage and would rather not be hassled by their spouse, though they don't mind the hassle that comes with having this other person as an AP.

 

 

As for if your ex's affair was "valid" or not, that's not up to me to decide, or really even you since what makes it valid has to do with the two of them. Simply chasing him doesn't make it "less valid." People don't usually chase throw-away relationships after they end, whereas they do relationships they thought were more they tend to want to pursue.

[purplesorrow]

Thinking he'd get caught or not doesn't change the fact that he knows by having an affair, he could detonate his marriage and he's choosing to take that risk because he doesn't care or, in this case, doesn't think he'll be caught. Either way, he's saying the risk and hassle is worth the reward of the affair, either actively making that choice, or passively, by having the affair knowing it could result in a divorce.

 

 

The secret thing is a non-factor no matter how you slice it, especially since the most common reason for it being secret is to avoid hassle. If anything, it's further confirmation that they're not invested in the marriage and would rather not be hassled by their spouse, though they don't mind the hassle that comes with having this other person as an AP.

 

 

As for if your ex's affair was "valid" or not, that's not up to me to decide, or really even you since what makes it valid has to do with the two of them. Simply chasing him doesn't make it "less valid." People don't usually chase throw-away relationships after they end, whereas they do relationships they thought were more they tend to want to pursue.

 

I guess I know he willingly had an affair, but thanks for clarifying. Some men don't want to get caught because they never had plans to leave.

[Lady Hamilton]

Not at my house. I know a lot of women and men that were the same. So no, it isn't true for every one.

 

Never did I say it was true for everybody, just that I thought there was truth to the competition idea when it comes to reconciliation. I do think there are certainly more than a few people who turn winning their spouse back as a way to reaffirm superiority on another woman who threatened them.

 

 

But I didn't say that happened always happened and, in cases where reconciliation isn't wanted or pursued, it wouldn't really apply.

[Lady Hamilton]

I guess I know he willingly had an affair, but thanks for clarifying. Some men don't want to get caught because they never had plans to leave.

 

Ok, but even then, they're still making that same choice and deciding the affair is worth risking the marriage. They can not tell or want it secret because they don't plan to leave, but that means very little if their spouse has different plans. They're still deciding the hassle of the affair is worth it compared to the hassle of a divorce they don't want.

[Girlfromcali]

I know it is a waste of time explaining this, but the point is that the OW doesn't "want the MM to leave his wife and kids." She has been made to believe, in both subtle and direct ways, that he is out of the marriage. He shows through action and word that he is planning on leaving, so it is very easy to feel it is not your fault. You are not causing or encouraging anything. He WANTS to leave his unhappy situation.

 

It is so easy for a BS to justify staying married to a cheater after he has completely disrespected her, but it is impossible to imagine the OW believing a MM is unhappy and is just "looking for the push to do what he has been wanting to do" for years? Why is one so easy to justify and the other not? It is the SAME man doing the convincing.

 

Trust me, I get it now. But I really believed in the beginning that it was not about me, that he was unhappy, that marriages are complicated and it was just a matter of time. It took me reading, researching, and seeking help to see that he was obviously messed up and did not care who he would hurt--his W, his kids, me, etc. I was the only one thinking of his BS, not him. I remember saying once, "If you are possibly not divorcing, what are you doing? Why would you hurt someone that you still want a relationship with?" I remember he sat quietly unmoving, and I could feel my skin crawl with ick. He was not who I thought he was, the situation was not as I thought it was. I felt ill. Married men are very, very good at convincing women that their marriages are prisons and that they will never get to see their kids, and women are extremely compassionate creatures. You have to live the deceit and the burn before you can really get it. My MM was just a regular guy, not a player. I had no reason to believe that he was not miserable in his M and wanting to leave.

 

There is a new BS or OW born every minute, always willing to give men the benefit of the doubt, to tolerate crappy treatment. There would not be cheaters if there weren't stupid women believing the lies about their marriages and desperate wives willing to keep them. But sadly, that is the situation. We women only have ourselves to blame.

 

My boss has a girlfriend at work, and I feel so badly for her. She is so stupid. We recently found out that she made up an overseas boyfriend because she got tired of answering questions about not having a guy. She has no "guy" because she is devoted to her MM. It has been five years. She is wasting the best years of her life on a guy that is not--NEVER--leaving his wife. I feel badly for the BS, of course. I feel badly for both women, wanting a guy that does not deserve either of them. It disgusts me. Nobody knows the BS well enough to tell her anything, and we figure she won't believe us. I do think about sending an anonymous letter, but I just don't know if that is the right thing to do.

 

In the end, I wish men were more afraid of losing us. But they're not.

 

This applies to my MM to a tee.

 

However, not all men (or women) are like that. That was one of the confusing factor for me because my previous experiences of men were different. I was used to men who always mean what they say, have empathy and would never intentionally lead a woman on, make decisions..etc. that's why I was like "oh, he's a man and he's saying I belong to him", because I just assumed they mean what they say.

 

This is not a moral judgment because I did a bad thing too but I was just acting on my previous experiences that I had before. I didn't know MM's are a different breed. I do now.

[purplesorrow]

Ok, but even then, they're still making that same choice and deciding the affair is worth risking the marriage. They can not tell or want it secret because they don't plan to leave, but that means very little if their spouse has different plans. They're still deciding the hassle of the affair is worth it compared to the hassle of a divorce they don't want.

 

I guess he learned that the hard way. He calls her the biggest mistake and regret of his life.

[minimariah]

Not at my house. I know a lot of women and men that were the same. So no, it isn't true for every one.

 

i agree that it's not true for everyone - but i think it's common. hysterical bonding can be best described as some kind of dance of PICK ME! & in many situations... the BS suddenly becomes aware of the situation, starts having sex with the WS even more than before, the passion is suddenly there stronger than it ever was, the BS starts paying more attention to the way she dresses, does her hair & make up...

 

again, not saying it happens with everyone. it didn't happen with me either but it is common. AFTER the hysterical bonding is over though - the BS is left with sadness, devastation and everything else that follows a D day. hysterical bonding does have an expiration date.

[wmacbride]

I know this won't be a popular view, and will probably get me lots of negative feedback, but I don't buy into the "poor little seduced ow/ om or mm/mw" view of affairs at all.

 

Given the prevalence of social media self help tv, the internet and the access people have to the wide number of cheating/affair related stories that abound on it, it's pretty hard to buy into the notion that someone has no idea affairs often don't work out or that they are hurtful.

 

It's like a there is a notorious used car salesman who has had numerous news stories printed about them and how dishonest they are, yet someone still sees they have cheap prices, decides to buy a vehicle them and then wonders why the wheels fell of their car the minute they leave the lot. It doesn't make what the dealer did okay or acceptable, but it's pretty hard to buy into the notion that one didn't know they were shady.

 

If "she seduced me' is no excuse for a mm- an I believe it isn't- then neither is "he seduced me" an excuse for an ow. Sure , he might lie, but it's pretty hard to swallow that idea that potential ow/om are completely unaware that mm/mw do this in order to get an affair off the ground.

 

Like I said that probably will get me flamed, but so be it.

[Girlfromcali]

Nah, you don't get flamed. Everyone has responsibility to be connected in their relationships, whether you're the W or the H or ow/om or whatever. Nobody should put their head in the sand in a R and claim they didn't know what was going on.

I learned pretty quickly what was going on and the illusion/fantasy was gone forever from that point on. Like someone said earlier, you get a sick feeling in your gut..it's just wrong.

And if anyone keeps living this lie, whether it's ow/m, bs or whoever, they are responsible for not being connected to their R and their environment.

[elaine567]

I believe the ego of the OW, ramped up by the MM, has quite a lot to do with why so many are take in by the deceit and choose to stay in the affair.

"I am just SOOOO hot and sexy, caring and loving, intelligent and interesting, why would I need to worry about some sour, boring old wife. with her cellulite and saggy boobs...

Of course he is gong to choose me, why wouldn't he????"

 

If the notorious garage treated you like royalty and convinced you they were the subject of a hate campaign, then you would be less inclined to believe they were in fact dodgy and shady, especially if the deal they were offering you seemed fair too.

Edited May 15, 2016 by elaine567

[Girlfromcali]

I believe the ego of the OW, ramped up by the MM, has quite a lot to do with why so many are take in by the deceit.

"I am just SOOOO hot and sexy, caring and loving, intelligent and interesting, why would I need to worry about some sour, boring old wife. with her cellulite and saggy boobs...

Of course he is gong to choose me, why wouldn't he????"

 

 

Yes, well this too..but my ego is too proud to admit this publicly. Actually him staying with the saggy boob sour puss shows he's at least loyal and doesn't switch wives according to cellulite, which is good. Not maybe good for the evolution but good for the family unit.

[ChickiePops]

I know it is a waste of time explaining this, but the point is that the OW doesn't "want the MM to leave his wife and kids." She has been made to believe, in both subtle and direct ways, that he is out of the marriage. He shows through action and word that he is planning on leaving, so it is very easy to feel it is not your fault. You are not causing or encouraging anything. He WANTS to leave his unhappy situation.

 

It is so easy for a BS to justify staying married to a cheater after he has completely disrespected her, but it is impossible to imagine the OW believing a MM is unhappy and is just "looking for the push to do what he has been wanting to do" for years? Why is one so easy to justify and the other not? It is the SAME man doing the convincing.

 

Trust me, I get it now. But I really believed in the beginning that it was not about me, that he was unhappy, that marriages are complicated and it was just a matter of time. It took me reading, researching, and seeking help to see that he was obviously messed up and did not care who he would hurt--his W, his kids, me, etc. I was the only one thinking of his BS, not him. I remember saying once, "If you are possibly not divorcing, what are you doing? Why would you hurt someone that you still want a relationship with?" I remember he sat quietly unmoving, and I could feel my skin crawl with ick. He was not who I thought he was, the situation was not as I thought it was. I felt ill. Married men are very, very good at convincing women that their marriages are prisons and that they will never get to see their kids, and women are extremely compassionate creatures. You have to live the deceit and the burn before you can really get it. My MM was just a regular guy, not a player. I had no reason to believe that he was not miserable in his M and wanting to leave.

 

There is a new BS or OW born every minute, always willing to give men the benefit of the doubt, to tolerate crappy treatment. There would not be cheaters if there weren't stupid women believing the lies about their marriages and desperate wives willing to keep them. But sadly, that is the situation. We women only have ourselves to blame.

 

My boss has a girlfriend at work, and I feel so badly for her. She is so stupid. We recently found out that she made up an overseas boyfriend because she got tired of answering questions about not having a guy. She has no "guy" because she is devoted to her MM. It has been five years. She is wasting the best years of her life on a guy that is not--NEVER--leaving his wife. I feel badly for the BS, of course. I feel badly for both women, wanting a guy that does not deserve either of them. It disgusts me. Nobody knows the BS well enough to tell her anything, and we figure she won't believe us. I do think about sending an anonymous letter, but I just don't know if that is the right thing to do.

 

In the end, I wish men were more afraid of losing us. But they're not.

 

But you still put the time in with a married man to get to a point where he was able to convince you of how miserable he was. You have the ability to say NO and you did not do it. Therefore your own misery is on you. The BSs misery is on her husband...and you, for involving yourself.

 

You don't mess with someone's husband. Period. Yup, men can truly suck sometimes, but having a vagina does not automatically entitle you to sympathy when you do something wrong.

[Tayla]

I recall being tossed in the middle of a storm.

 

An endearing friend ( female), was having an affair. Little did I know I was her "excuse" to her husband. On varying occassions we would go out dancing and enjoy the friendship. She would then tell her husband she was crashing at my house. When in fact she was hightailing it to a local hotel to have her hay day.

 

I had no idea until one morning the husband calls my house inquiring what time she left to come home. I was concerned at this point as I knew she left the dance place at around midnight. It was noon the next day.

 

Around two o'clock I get a phone call from her, she is frantic! She wants to know what I told her husband. I said- The truth, that we parted ways at midnight. She reamed me a new set of ears with her tirade.

 

That friendship went up in smoke in a matter of a few days. yes she was female, and yes we shared some family events together. But in no way am I going to allow to be a patsy to cover up her flings. So pardon if I have values and do not show compassion for her antics. Pardon if I find deception to not be a quality to support.

 

So there is that. You want to be my sister, then don't mess with my mister or anyone else's for that matter.

 

Consider me a friend til you show otherwise...

 

gender is not what makes a friendship, but character is what can destroy it.

[Girlfromcali]

But you still put the time in with a married man to get to a point where he was able to convince you of how miserable he was. You have the ability to say NO and you did not do it. Therefore your own misery is on you. The BSs misery is on her husband...and you, for involving yourself.

 

You don't mess with someone's husband. Period. Yup, men can truly suck sometimes, but having a vagina does not automatically entitle you to sympathy when you do something wrong.

 

Did you read the post you're quoting because I'm pretty sure that's what she was trying to say.

 

Or maybe I misunderstood it?

[Quiet Storm]

Ok, but even then, they're still making that same choice and deciding the affair is worth risking the marriage. They can not tell or want it secret because they don't plan to leave, but that means very little if their spouse has different plans. They're still deciding the hassle of the affair is worth it compared to the hassle of a divorce they don't want.

 

This assumes that the MM is an introspective, emotionally balanced and self aware individual who carefully considers consequences. That is not the case for most MM.

 

It's like a guy with a fast car driving 100 mph on the highway, weaving in and out of lanes. He's not thinking about the family he will hit when he loses control. He loves driving fast. He's having fun. It's exciting and it gives him a rush.

 

Consequences aren't seriously considered until the aftermath, when he's seeing the damage he caused, looking back and thinking "Why did I do that? Why didn't I just think?!"

 

In their mind, the marriage is their anchor, home base. An immovable, unchangeable entity. He doesn't see the affair as a real threat to his marriage, because he knows he's not leaving. He assumes his wife will value the family like he does and will feel their marriage is worth saving.

 

If the consequences do cross his mind... I think they're confident in their ability to remain married. He knows he is attractive and charming enough to get an OW to do something she'd never thought she'd do (have an affair). Another woman is choosing to date him while he's married and raising a family. He's that special! So he's thinking, "I can handle it. I can convince my wife to do something she'd never thought she'd do- stay with a cheater. I can get her to give me another chance just like I convince OW to stay in an affair".

[Cymbeline]

This assumes that the MM is an introspective, emotionally balanced and self aware individual who carefully considers consequences. That is not the case for most MM.

 

It's like a guy with a fast car driving 100 mph on the highway, weaving in and out of lanes. He's not thinking about the family he will hit when he loses control. He loves driving fast. He's having fun. It's exciting and it gives him a rush.

 

Consequences aren't seriously considered until the aftermath, when he's seeing the damage he caused, looking back and thinking "Why did I do that? Why didn't I just think?!"

 

In their mind, the marriage is their anchor, home base. An immovable, unchangeable entity. He doesn't see the affair as a real threat to his marriage, because he knows he's not leaving. He assumes his wife will value the family like he does and will feel their marriage is worth saving.

 

If the consequences do cross his mind... I think they're confident in their ability to remain married. He knows he is attractive and charming enough to get an OW to do something she'd never thought she'd do (have an affair). Another woman is choosing to date him while he's married and raising a family. He's that special! So he's thinking, "I can handle it. I can convince my wife to do something she'd never thought she'd do- stay with a cheater. I can get her to give me another chance just like I convince OW to stay in an affair".

 

 

Something like this. Our psychologist describes my WH as a Ferrari brain serviced by Mazda brakes. Not uncommon in high achieving individuals, rewarded materially by corporations, (she says).

 

I can't argue logically or emotionally with anything Lady Hanillton says. But experience tells me otherwise.

[ShatteredLady]

During his a my H described himself as a 'giant insect' with no brain just reacting to things. No thoughts, no plans, just trying to survive.

 

 

Back to the OP's opening post. I don't agree with Oprah. I truly love my friends. My real friends are like family to me. My H could be the most handsome, amazing man to ever live. He could do or say anything & I would still trust my dear friends to put him in his place & immediately tell me what happened.

 

Discussing women's loyalty is fine. Loyalty between best friends is different. Just as my H vowed "for better or worse", there's an unspoken vow between bff. A 'double betrayal' of a besty cheating with my H would be beyond devastating, unimaginable! How does anyone survive that?!?

 

It takes a particular kind of person to cheat a dear friend. I'm completely & utterly loyal to my girlfriends & expect the same in return.

 

It's nice to think there could be some kind of human empathy, consideration for others but I don't see that happening any time soon.

[Lady Hamilton]

This assumes that the MM is an introspective, emotionally balanced and self aware individual who carefully considers consequences. That is not the case for most MM.

 

It's like a guy with a fast car driving 100 mph on the highway, weaving in and out of lanes. He's not thinking about the family he will hit when he loses control. He loves driving fast. He's having fun. It's exciting and it gives him a rush.

 

Consequences aren't seriously considered until the aftermath, when he's seeing the damage he caused, looking back and thinking "Why did I do that? Why didn't I just think?!"

 

In their mind, the marriage is their anchor, home base. An immovable, unchangeable entity. He doesn't see the affair as a real threat to his marriage, because he knows he's not leaving. He assumes his wife will value the family like he does and will feel their marriage is worth saving.

 

If the consequences do cross his mind... I think they're confident in their ability to remain married. He knows he is attractive and charming enough to get an OW to do something she'd never thought she'd do (have an affair). Another woman is choosing to date him while he's married and raising a family. He's that special! So he's thinking, "I can handle it. I can convince my wife to do something she'd never thought she'd do- stay with a cheater. I can get her to give me another chance just like I convince OW to stay in an affair".

 

Unless the husband is operating in the biggest emotional void in the history of humanity, they know that if they're caught, it's going to have an impact on their marriage. They may proceed thinking they won't get caught, that they deserve to have an affair or it's justified, or that it won't have consequences because it's just a fling, or that they can convince their spouse to stay if they are caught, but they know, if they're caught, their marriage will experience a fallout.

 

 

To use your car analogy, they don't think they'll crash, but if you ask them what would happen if they did crash, they know.

 

 

I've found streams of people who said that they won't get caught, their justified, or they won't leave and/or can convince their partner to stay, but not one who, when asked, said "there will be no consequences if I were caught." If it were something that they thought were consequence-free, it wouldn't be something they kept from their spouse.

[ChickiePops]

Did you read the post you're quoting because I'm pretty sure that's what she was trying to say.

 

Or maybe I misunderstood it?

 

What I read is that the poor lil OW got tricked into banging a married guy. The men are the bad guys and we women should band together regardless of which side of the affair we are on. She banged someone's husband but his wife should be on HER side because they both got tricked into loving the same man.

 

Yes..the OW had a hand in ruining her life and she should be thanking her for it. Poor OW, going through a rough time. So she decided to punish the BS for that. Misery loves company right?

 

If someone is married, stay away. Put up boundaries. And if you truly are that naive or vulnerable then the pain you experience during or after the affair is probably a much needed lesson.

 

Sorry, I'm not blaming you, and I generally like your posts. I just think the whole premise of girl power when someone is banging someone else's husband is ridiculous. No, it's not ok just because we are all women.

[minimariah]

...they know that if they're caught, it's going to have an impact on their marriage.

 

but they don't really actively THINK about it. i think that was the point of QS's post. they know their marriage (& life) will suffer if they get caught but they don't think about it - they simply black it out in their minds.

 

many MM's aren't aware of the damage until it happens, that's also true.

[anika99]

Unless the husband is operating in the biggest emotional void in the history of humanity, they know that if they're caught, it's going to have an impact on their marriage. They may proceed thinking they won't get caught, that they deserve to have an affair or it's justified, or that it won't have consequences because it's just a fling, or that they can convince their spouse to stay if they are caught, but they know, if they're caught, their marriage will experience a fallout.

 

 

To use your car analogy, they don't think they'll crash, but if you ask them what would happen if they did crash, they know.

 

 

I've found streams of people who said that they won't get caught, their justified, or they won't leave and/or can convince their partner to stay, but not one who, when asked, said "there will be no consequences if I were caught." If it were something that they thought were consequence-free, it wouldn't be something they kept from their spouse.

 

It's called denial and one doesn't have to be operating in the biggest void in human history to live in denial. People do it all the time. Reminds of when I was a smoker. I was risking my life every year that I smoked, but I didn't have a death wish, it wasn't that I didn't want to live, it was just that I thought it wouldn't happen to me. I didn't want to give up the pleasure that smoking gave me in the moment so I kept telling myself lies so that I wouldn't have to. It took watching someone I loved very deeply die of lung cancer to wake me up from my state of denial. That's when it truly hit me for the first time that I was indeed risking my life and that's when I quit.