Women supporting women?

[heartwhole]

I guess I can understand the sentiment that women, who still today lack equal pay and standing in society (in some more than others), should band together, but I think it's a bit of an oversimplification.

 

First of all, while more men have affairs than women, two things stand out. One is that the majority of both sexes do not have affairs. The second is that about 40% of the people cheating are women. So this isn't just a bad cheating men versus innocent cheated upon women scenario, nor is it fair to say that all men are cheating pigs.

 

I also question whether it's "abuse" for a MM to have a consensual relationship with an OW. We are all responsible for making good choices in our lives no matter what others encourage us to do. And I think in my many cases, at least with my WH, the longing and the courting was not faked. Yes, there are the MM who find girlfriends under false pretenses, pretending to be single, or the ones who set out to bed as many women as possible, not caring what lies they tell. But if we're talking about an EA/PA where the MM has genuine feelings, I don't think it's as one-sided as is being described here. He believes it at the time; he wants it at the time. The question is . . . why is an affair an option either AP thinks will work out well in the end?

 

I do believe that it is abuse for the WH to expose his BW sexually to a third party without her knowledge or consent. Somehow the OW rationalizes being party to this.

 

I also don't think that every BW blames the OW to the exclusion of her husband. Of course there will always be women willing to sleep with my husband. He's attractive, he's charming, he earns a high income. But that doesn't mean that I can't wonder why this particular woman made those particular choices that have affected my life so much. Nor have I let her or the whole of womankind down by making the personal decision to reconcile with my husband, who through hard work and therapy has made tremendous progress in empathy, in communication, in judgment, in coping with stress, etc.

 

People can change and grow, but not without self-awareness and real effort. If you've entered an affair from either end, you probably have some issues with self-esteem, with boundaries, with judgment, with coping skills, with entitlement, etc. to address. Laying all the blame at the feet of the other party is easier than looking for the chinks in one's armor, but I think the healthiest approach is to see each actor in the love triangle as a real person with strengths and weaknesses who can, and should, learn and grow from the experience.

[Tayla]

What I read is that the poor lil OW got tricked into banging a married guy. The men are the bad guys and we women should band together regardless of which side of the affair we are on. She banged someone's husband but his wife should be on HER side because they both got tricked into loving the same man.

 

Yes..the OW had a hand in ruining her life and she should be thanking her for it. Poor OW, going through a rough time. So she decided to punish the BS for that. Misery loves company right?

 

 

I think that is how I interpreted this original inquiry as well.

 

I'm not of the mindset though that any gratitude be had....Is almost like thanking the abuser for not hitting you five times and only hitting you four times....Something is terrible off if that is how someone conveys gratitude.

 

Bottom line is simple: When fools rush in, exit stage right

[thecharade]

Look, I am fine. I did not get crushed because I realized what was going to happen and I did not want the BS to suffer a dday. I absolutely did not want that for her. No need, I walked away. I was stupid and foolish and believed things were different with my MM and his marriage and life because . . . the deceit looked nothing like books and movies, nothing at all. Apparently a MM can be "in denial" about getting caught and maybe losing his family, but the OW cannot be, should know better? Nice double standard. Once again, I have no idea why, but women have always found it easiest to blame women.

 

It's fine, I was not crushed and will never be so foolish again. Never. And I seriously have opportunity all over. Will my MM have another A? If he can. That is the point of my thread. Just wanted to pose the idea that maybe it is a waste for women to blame other women. And maybe that is the reason affairs will always exist?

[thecharade]

One of the things that we all wonder is WHY? Why do people cheat?

 

Is it because of loose morals?

Is monogamy obsolete or impossible?

Are cheaters damaged?

Is marriage too confining?

Was it simply an opportunity?

OPs are the problem?

Forgiving spouses allow it?

Difficulty of divorce necessitates it?

 

IDK.

But I see so much cheating, so much lusting and longing, so much unhappiness and pain--I am constantly trying to understand.

 

I believed that my MM and I were special and in love, but that rarely ends up to be enough? Or true? So then, why do these things keep happening between people?

Edited May 16, 2016 by thecharade

[MissBee]

I agree with much of what you say in terms of selfishness being at the crux of most affairs. Most people, men or women, in affairs aren't evil or diabolical, but as human nature goes, there is good and bad and a lot of times selfishness is the bad that is at the crux of it. I was just talking to my friend about this today, who had cheated during a hard time in her relationship and now is tempted to do it again (with the same person) because they're going through another hard patch. She is a good person and loves her SO, but when they're having issues she has sought comfort in another who initially had happened to be around and seemed like an oasis in the midst of the desert....I get it...but I told her that I can speak from the OW perspective, and it's very selfish. Because ultimately, you aren't trying to leave your SO, you just want the comfort, the listening ear, the attention (not even so much the sex) of this other person, and you do care about this other person, but primarily you're using them to get YOUR needs met more than you're meeting their needs and like in the past, if sh*t hits the fan, your instinct will be to dump and discard them and re-focus on your primary relationship. And she even admits as much that while she likes this other person, she doesn't want to be with them full time and her current partner is who she wants full time but the current partner is lacking in emotional support at the moment, which is why she became attracted to this other person who was offering that.

 

I've been the OW once for a stint and then had recently met another guy who had been lying about being in a relationship and the commonality is that both of them claimed to love their SOs, and I believe they do....but clearly for some reason were dissatisfied or unable to handle certain things in their relationship so felt like I was a solution. They were attracted to me, found me smart, caring, a good listener, and for all intents and purposes if they were single would date me....and so in an effort to escape the problems (not the actual relationship) they got wrapped up in a whole alternate relationship with me, but it didn't change that they did have a primary relationship and weren't planning to leave it to be with me fully for many reasons. And it was selfish.

 

As the OW I never knew their gfs personally and initially knew nothing of them to begin with when things started, so it really wasn't a competition or me deliberately trying to "poach" a man from his SO at all. Although I realize after a while in an A you do start to compare and subconsciously start to wonder why this person won't choose you and start doing things to "sell yourself" to them....and it's awful because you shouldn't have to do that but often we end up doing just that even if we aren't aware. I know there are some women who seek out MM or men in relationships and it's deliberate and it's a competition etc, then many OW, as you mention, are fed lies or half-truths, fall for the guy and then stick it out thinking it's a one-off thing and he is just stuck etc. I get feeling stuck....but that's not the OW's problem. That's totally HIS problem to deal with and the mistake many OW make is thinking that by being with him and "showing him" how good she is for him, he'll get the courage to leave...but often that's not at all what happens, they just get to have their cake and eat it too and many MM aren't oblivious, they know it's not fair, but as humans go, many people will take and take if it benefits them or if they seem to have a willing party who isn't demanding they do things differently. Most people like the path of least resistance (which is what leads many to affairs in the first place, avoiding conflict or avoiding their issues) and will continue down it for as long as they can, even if part of them realizes the truth.

 

That's why OW have to make decisions for themselves and not for MM and his well-being as most MM will be making decisions for their own well-being and then will ultimately also prioritize their wives/SO before the OW, which makes sense. And again, this is less about being calculating and evil, but it's still selfish and often manipulative, even if not intentional. This convo with my friend today really shed light on it for me because I know her very well and know the kind of person she is and could see how even she in her own desperation would turn to an affair and was using this other person, even though she didn't think of it in that way until I really started explaining it from the OW's perspective and experience how it's unfair...it also helped me to understand more how those guys I was with were also doing similar things.

Edited May 16, 2016 by MissBee

[mrldii]

...I believed that my MM and I were special and in love, but that rarely ends up to be enough? Or true? So then, why do these things keep happening between people?

 

 

Awww, you went and added this part.

 

Is it that you believed you and your MM were "special"...or is that you believed you were special enough to 'get him away from another woman'...and another woman that he already had 'so much invested' in?

 

 

Be honest with yourself...is that the two of you "were special"...or that you would be?

 

 

Competition between women, indeed...

[ChickiePops]

One of the things that we all wonder is WHY? Why do people cheat?

 

Is it because of loose morals?

Is monogamy obsolete or impossible?

Are cheaters damaged?

Is marriage too confining?

Was it simply an opportunity?

OPs are the problem?

Forgiving spouses allow it?

Difficulty of divorce necessitates it?

 

IDK.

But I see so much cheating, so much lusting and longing, so much unhappiness and pain--I am constantly trying to understand.

 

I believed that my MM and I were special and in love, but that rarely ends up to be enough? Or true? So then, why do these things keep happening between people?

 

So basically you're trying to absolve yourself of any guilt here. Well you can't.

 

You did a terrible thing. You betrayed your own morals and you also risked ruining multiple lives including your own. You never know how a BS will react to being so poorly treated.

 

You aren't innocent. You cannot talk your way out of your role in what you did to his family and trying to justify it is neither helpful nor healthy.

 

What you CAN do is to move forward, face and own up to what you did, and apply the lessons you learned to your life so you don't make them again.

 

You made an enormous mistake. But you're doing the right thing now and that is what you should think about. Everyone makes mistakes. How you handle the aftermath is what counts.

[thecharade]

No, I wanted to add it just as it is said. I believed we were special and it would work out, but that was foolishness because we ended up in a same situation as all others.

 

I believe most people believe they are in a special and unique relationship, which is why they go against their gut.

 

I have no need to compete with other women, never have. In fact, I protected the BS once I fully understood the situation. She is happy in her life, just as I wanted her to be. There was no drama, no dday, no altered reality for her. I am sorry you don't seem to like or respect women, mrldii. That is unfortunate. But, I do.

[thecharade]

I have already faced everything and learned. I ended this R five years ago. I still see the same thing playing out over and over all around me, and that is what bothers me now. Most of what I see (at work) is silly women who are going to get hurt and wives at home who are going to get hurt. I feel badly for both but powerless to stop it. The men? They seem fine, and those not involved seem . . . jealous. Sadly.

[ChickiePops]

I have already faced everything and learned. I ended this R five years ago. I still see the same thing playing out over and over all around me, and that is what bothers me now. Most of what I see (at work) is silly women who are going to get hurt and wives at home who are going to get hurt. I feel badly for both but powerless to stop it. The men? They seem fine, and those not involved seem . . . jealous. Sadly.

 

If you're going to make personal attacks then I think the best we can all do is wish you luck and walk away from this thread.

 

It takes a very strong person to admit to their mistakes. I truly hope you're able to do it someday. Good luck.

[66Charger]

One of the things that we all wonder is WHY? Why do people cheat?

 

Is it because of loose morals?

Is monogamy obsolete or impossible?

Are cheaters damaged?

Is marriage too confining?

Was it simply an opportunity?

OPs are the problem?

Forgiving spouses allow it?

Difficulty of divorce necessitates it?

 

IDK.

But I see so much cheating, so much lusting and longing, so much unhappiness and pain--I am constantly trying to understand.

 

I believed that my MM and I were special and in love, but that rarely ends up to be enough? Or true? So then, why do these things keep happening between people?

 

IDK?

 

I am sorry, but weren't you a MOW engaged in the same kind of behavior as the mm? And you had a great Husband? (Your words)

 

Not seeing many women on here buying that.

 

I try to limit my post on this side, but if you are going to call for women to stand with women (a worthy cause) , better make sure your house is not glass.

 

I am not one to defend mm, but this thread is hypocrisy and nothing but a charade.

 

Edited for civility.

Edited May 16, 2016 by 66Charger

[Jabron1]

Will my MM have another A? If he can. That is the point of my thread. Just wanted to pose the idea that maybe it is a waste for women to blame other women.

 

It's always a waste of time to blame the outside influence for cheating. Because (unless it's family or a close friend) that person had no responsibility to you.

 

I don't see what gender has to do with this.

[Cloudcuckoo]

My husband got involved with a woman he truly deserved at the time....

 

He was unrecognisable as the man I married. Self absorbed doesn't begin to described his behaviour.

 

Dday hit and I simply told him he couldn't have his cake and eat it any longer, and he had as long as it took me to pack the car....

 

His other woman worked very hard to attain my life as his wife and went to great lengths. Even breaking into his email account, phone and belongings to gain what she herself called 'the upper hand', knowing all about me and our family.

 

As a woman to another? I felt sad for a woman so desperate facing her lonely future in old age that a married man would be a suitable prospect...

 

They deserved each other..two cold, calculated self absorbed people who cared nothing for anyone but themselves...

 

Gender has nothing to do with how selfish a person is capable of being.

 

My husband is a very different man today. His other woman? I've no idea, but I do hope she eventually found peace in whatever way she could.

[Els]

Of course the married person carries the majority of the fault and responsibility for an affair. No question there.

 

But seriously are you expecting OWs and BSs to 'support each other' solely on the basis of both having XX chromosomes??? That's daft.

[elaine567]

It is unrealistic to suggest that BWs and OWs need to support each other.

A "crime" has been committed against the BW, how can she be expected to support the "criminal" who carried out the heinous act?

 

It is not AFTER the cheating event that women need to exhibit solidarity, it is BEFORE the event that there needs to be more solidarity.

There needs to be more respect shown to women who are in relationships, by other women.

So when the opportunity to cheat arises, the women need to be strong enough to say "No, I am supporting my "sister", she (and her kids) does not need to be subjected to the heartache that will be caused by my selfish actions."

 

I feel that society in general condones cheating, so people almost feel entitled to cheat.

The media portrayal of cheating does not usually include the depth of suffering caused to the BS, the disruption of children's lives.

It is all about romance, love, excitement and sex and the "horrible" BS deserved it...

The BS is also often seen as a figure of fun and is derided.

"Surely he/she knew, what an idiot!"

[jenkins95]

Very interesting thread with some fascinating opinions and viewpoints.

 

Isn't it simply easiest to say that anyone who cheats behind their partner's back and/or enables someone else to is a "bad guy", whether they are the MM, OW or whatever?

 

As an MM myself several months after my affair, I don't agree with the implication in the original post that all MMs are evil masterminds who understand the mind of the OW and carefully manipulate them every step of the way, giving just enough, but pulling back when necessary to keep them dangling. All minutely planned and executed just so that he can eat cake as long as possible.

 

In my case as an MM there was no manipulation or planning, I was just a childish idiot (and I see this in a lot of other MM stories). I saw the chance for some fun and I grabbed it without thinking much about anything else. There was no master plan, pulling strings, manipulation, nothing like that. I was just living in the moment having fun and assumed that the OW was too. I had my head in the clouds. I just assume that "everything will work out ok" and "no one needs to get hurt".

 

In my case, I never suggested that I would leave my family and my OW never suggested that she would leave her BF. We were pretty clear from the start that it was "just fun". But as well as being selfish cheats, we were naive! Feelings got involved, obsessions developed, D-days happened and hearts got broken.

 

The point I am making is that in most cases, both parties who cheat are equally to blame. The view of the OW as an innocent victim is over-simplistic. Even if some MMs do manipulate the OW, at the very least the OW knew she was getting mixed up with a married man right from the very beginning. I know there are exceptions, but in general I hold all cheats pretty much as responsible as each other, whatever their role is.

Edited May 16, 2016 by jenkins95

[jenkins95]

Of course the married person carries the majority of the fault and responsibility for an affair. No question there.

 

Yes. A caveat to add to my previous post is that while both cheating parties are in the wrong, the one with a partner and dependent children whose lives and happiness he/she is risking, is even more at fault and should accept more responsibility than the single other person.

[elaine567]

Even if some MMs do manipulate the OW, at the very least the OW knew she was getting mixed up with a married man right from the very beginning. I know there are exceptions, but in general I hold all cheats pretty much as responsible as each other, whatever their role is.

Yes, that is true, and skimmed over all the time too.

[jenkins95]

During his a my H described himself as a 'giant insect' with no brain just reacting to things. No thoughts, no plans, just trying to survive.

 

Yes! Living in the moment, no thoughts of consequences or where all this was going or how it would end. I relate to this 100%.

 

Again, I make no excuses for MMs. I was a complete POS to do what I did. But I reiterate the point that it wasn't all carefully and elaborately planned out and the OW was not deliberately manipulated and played. I was just another giant insect!

[thecharade]

Again, I do think it is unrealistic to imagine that all women would stand together, but if we did, cheaters who engage in cheating and see the women as collateral damage would have no one left afterwards--no plan A or plan B. And the problem of infidelity would greatly diminish.

 

But as it stands, women always believe cheaters. I see OW and BW as equally responsible, valuing the relationship over respect and integrity.

[jenkins95]

Once again from quiet storm, a brilliant post!

 

This assumes that the MM is an introspective, emotionally balanced and self aware individual who carefully considers consequences. That is not the case for most MM.

 

Totally right. We are just living in the moment, having fun, being big kids. Why thing about responsibilities and consequences? That would just spoil the party!

 

It's like a guy with a fast car driving 100 mph on the highway, weaving in and out of lanes. He's not thinking about the family he will hit when he loses control. He loves driving fast. He's having fun. It's exciting and it gives him a rush.

 

Yes! We're having fun! Son't try to analyse us too much - we are quite simple creatures when it comes down to it!

 

Consequences aren't seriously considered until the aftermath, when he's seeing the damage he caused, looking back and thinking "Why did I do that? Why didn't I just think?!"

 

Yes! When the s*** hits the fan, THAT is when we engage out brain! It's a bit like a guy who has just had a car crash, sitting confused and dazed in his car wreck.....finally applying the brakes!

 

In their mind, the marriage is their anchor, home base. An immovable, unchangeable entity. He doesn't see the affair as a real threat to his marriage, because he knows he's not leaving. He assumes his wife will value the family like he does and will feel their marriage is worth saving.

 

Wow, you are good quiet storm! This stuff is spot on. When I started my affair, I didn't even think the question of me ever leaving my marriage was even up for question! I assumed that it was written in stone that "no one is leaving anyone and no one gets hurt". Yes - I was an idiot

 

We referred to each other as "lovers" - a romantic term that conveniently spells out the fact that you are not actually partners. The term "bit on the side" doesn't have the same ring to it somehow!!

 

If the consequences do cross his mind... I think they're confident in their ability to remain married. He knows he is attractive and charming enough to get an OW to do something she'd never thought she'd do (have an affair). Another woman is choosing to date him while he's married and raising a family. He's that special! So he's thinking, "I can handle it. I can convince my wife to do something she'd never thought she'd do- stay with a cheater. I can get her to give me another chance just like I convince OW to stay in an affair".

Yes, but for me, my thinking didn't even go this far. Like almost every criminal in the state jail, I just didn't think I'd get caught!

[jenkins95]

Look, I am fine. I did not get crushed because I realized what was going to happen and I did not want the BS to suffer a dday. I absolutely did not want that for her. No need, I walked away. I was stupid and foolish and believed things were different with my MM and his marriage and life because . . . the deceit looked nothing like books and movies, nothing at all. Apparently a MM can be "in denial" about getting caught and maybe losing his family, but the OW cannot be, should know better? Nice double standard. Once again, I have no idea why, but women have always found it easiest to blame women.

 

It's fine, I was not crushed and will never be so foolish again. Never. And I seriously have opportunity all over. Will my MM have another A? If he can. That is the point of my thread. Just wanted to pose the idea that maybe it is a waste for women to blame other women. And maybe that is the reason affairs will always exist?

 

charade. The bit I've highlighted - that sums it up I think! To anyone who participates in affairs, whatever the role, bottom line, at some point we have been foolish and stupid. We are human - we are capable of it and we are not infallible robots! But boy, what a tough way to learn life lessons.

[jenkins95]

I have already faced everything and learned. I ended this R five years ago. I still see the same thing playing out over and over all around me, and that is what bothers me now. Most of what I see (at work) is silly women who are going to get hurt and wives at home who are going to get hurt. I feel badly for both but powerless to stop it. The men? They seem fine, and those not involved seem . . . jealous. Sadly.

 

This is a popular misconception. I am a MM several months after the end of an affair and I am still an absolute mess. Read the posts of Dylon, Confused9999, etc, too. Men are not so good at openly expressing their emotions. Often we just run and suffer in silence. We may seem like we don't care and that we just get straight over it and move on - but believe me, we don't. We suffer too. This illustrates that: -

 

http://www.suicide.org/international-suicide-statistics.html

 

Sorry to post such a depressing link, but the very fact that male suicide rate is consistently about 4 times higher than the female suicide rate illustrates the above. We hurt too. We may not cry, open up to friends, post on LS (much more female posters than male in general?), but we hurt too. We tend to internalise it which is an awful way to deal with it. I was depressed for about 7 years (long before I had an affair - but that was ultimately a contributing factor). No one knew!! On the rare occasions that my wife noticed that I was quiet, I managed to fob it off as "feeling ill" or "stressed with work".

 

I'm labouring the point! But I just wanted to make the point that we rarely just walk away scot-free and recover immediately.

Edited May 16, 2016 by jenkins95

[Cloudcuckoo]

This is a popular misconception. I am a MM several months after the end of an affair and I am still an absolute mess. Read the posts of Dylon, Confused9999, etc, too. Men are not so good at openly expressing their emotions. Often we just run and suffer in silence. We may seem like we don't care and that we just get straight over it and move on - but believe me, we don't. We suffer too. This illustrates that: -

 

International Suicide Statistics - Suicide.org!

 

Sorry to post such a depressing link, but the very fact that male suicide rate is consistently about 4 times higher than the female suicide rate illustrates the above. We hurt too. We may not cry, open up to friends, post on LS (much more female posters than male in general?), but we hurt too. We tend to internalise it which is an awful way to deal with it. I was depressed for about 7 years (long before I had an affair - but that was ultimately a contributing factor). No one knew!! On the rare occasions that my wife noticed that I was quiet, I managed to fob it off as "feeling ill" or "stressed with work".

 

I'm labouring the point! But I just wanted to make the point that we rarely just walk away scot-free and recover immediately.

 

 

This is a most important insight Jenkins..

 

My husband, once his selfish, egotistical alien persona had found its way back to another planet did indeed suffer.

 

Not because he missed his other woman (as often happens in the cold light of reality outside of the affair bubble, one sees with a very clear lens), but because of the realisation that he had become the antithesis of all he had previously held himself to be....

 

He had turned, for that period, into someone he would have previously reviled.

 

Someone who didn't consider what he was getting into, never thought beyond the moment he was in, and thoroughly enjoyed his gratuitous activities with the common philosophy that 'what you don't know can't hurt you'. It really is that simple for many!

 

'I'll be careful, I won't get caught, and she'll never know so it's all good! For ME....

 

He was absolutely mortified when he saw what that REALLY meant.....

 

He was quite broken himself for a long while ...

Edited May 16, 2016 by Cloudcuckoo

[jenkins95]

Great post Cloudcuckoo.

 

And every word you wrote about your H applies to me too.

 

We become experts in denial, dismissing our own interval warnings, justifying, lying - to ourselves as much as to our wives.

 

But when reality hits - it REALLY hits. That's when the debt has to be paid back, and, to labour an analogy, we realise that interest rate on that debt is VERY high. Oh, if only we'd spent a day on LS BEFORE we ever got into this mess!

 

 

This is a most important insight Jenkins..

 

My husband, once his selfish, egotistical alien persona had found its way back to another planet did indeed suffer.

 

Not because he missed his other woman (as often happens in the cold light of reality outside of the affair bubble, one sees with a very clear lens), but because of the realisation that he had become the antithesis of all he had previously held himself to be....

 

He had turned, for that period, into someone he would have previously reviled.

 

Someone who didn't consider what he was getting into, never thought beyond the moment he was in, and thoroughly enjoyed his gratuitous activities with the common philosophy that 'what you don't know can't hurt you'. It really is that simple for many!

 

'I'll be careful, I won't get caught, and she'll never know so it's all good! For ME....

 

He was absolutely mortified when he saw what that REALLY meant.....

 

He was quite broken himself for a long while ...