Infidelity - forgiveness - not something I ask for

[NTV]

I am still mulling that over - I don't have the answer.

 

Yesterday was a heavy day... Lots of talking about this, which is certainly preferable to rug sweeping.

 

I think his forgiveness is him saying that he understands. That he doesn't want to blame me.

 

For instance - from yesterday - a "trigger" caused him to send me a text, and this followed:

 

Him - Anxiety gets the best of me

Me- Its my fault

I wish I could look you in the eye and reassure you

You don't deserve to feel this way

Him - No. Its our fault. We will be okay.

 

There was a bunch more back and forth, and of course I rushed to him as soon as I could get home from work. We held each other tight and had a positive evening. Talked about hard things but in a good way.

 

 

Yeah, if he's still dealing with triggers, then it's way too early to discuss forgiveness. I think you made the right call in saying what you did to him about his forgiving you being too early. This is a years-long healing process with a lot of ups and downs.

 

 

I think you also did good rushing home over the trigger.

 

 

While I would love to talk more about forgiveness, I think you may need a new thread asking BH's input on what more you can/should do and discussing what you have done (for reconciliation) so far.

 

 

Even if you hear what went wrong for others, it'll be warning signs for you.

 

 

'Course, who am I? just a stranger on the internet.

[jen1447]

Him - Anxiety gets the best of me

Me- Its my fault

I wish I could look you in the eye and reassure you

You don't deserve to feel this way

Him - No. Its our fault. We will be okay.

 

You know how men are so often inclined toward problem solving and it irritates us so much? Most women don't realize that we do the same thing, only with nurturing. Food for thought.

[RecentChange]

Do you ever find yourself feeling like your H may be holding back emotionally as a defense mechanism to keep himself from being hurt again?

 

I have read and heard many times of bs who do this, and admit I have done it myself sometimes.

 

He seems pretty all in and lets himself be vulnerable. A cycle I am trying to avoid right now - is that when he sees me upset, he wants to soothe me, and in turn I really worry about him clamming up because he doesn't want to see me cry - I swear, thats such a "man thing" never wanting to see their lady shed tears.

 

While in my case...I was the first to cheat....then John had a response affair....and in your case your partner cheated first ...then you.....

we still come to the same spot don't we?

 

You can look at your husband...and know at least some of the struggles he is feeling because he made you feel the same way...and vice versa.

 

I will share with you this....and take it with a grain of salt.....I have found it has been much easier for me to concentrate on my OWN affair...my OWN mindset....My OWN flaws....then to concentrate on HIS.

 

Regardless....i do wish you the best. I do believe you both want your relationship to work. That is 99% of the battle. Knowing you both want the same goal makes it easier to work together.

 

I do give you that. And I am focusing on ME, and the whys of THIS. As for him right now, I just want to support him and lessen the suffering you know?

 

As for the past, his cheating, was, totally different. Reasons, mental state, why it was carried out, aftermath, all, very very different. And I have forgiven him, and I try to avoid bringing it up when I cheated. He has been the one to mention it every time - yesterday it was "this would have never happened if I hadn't broken your heart first". Which I didn't have a response to, I can't say "no that isn't true!" we have talked about it before. That my doing... wasn't revenge, really his cheating just wasn't a part of my consciousness any more. But I felt that it DID give me a license. In my mind, I thought well, we were able to work though that - so, if I get caught being a $h!t bag here, well, we can probably work through this as well. Doesn't make it right, but that is how I levied with myself before making the plunge.

 

BH's input on what more you can/should do and discussing what you have done (for reconciliation) so far.

 

Even if you hear what went wrong for others, it'll be warning signs for you.

.

 

Eh' this is enough about me for now I really don't enjoy hashing out my own issues on the net' so much. I have been reading, thinking, mulling over - and talking to my partner about what he wants and what I can do for him. And in turn, he is doing the same.

 

You know how men are so often inclined toward problem solving and it irritates us so much? Most women don't realize that we do the same thing, only with nurturing. Food for thought.

 

! Haha point taken - and your right. But like so much of this, its a balancing act. I don't want to be smothering, on the other hand, he is one of those closest sensitive "tough guys" all brawn on the street, but will ask me to hold him. He has def. expressed a need to reassurance, and I try to.

[NTV]

 

 

Eh' this is enough about me for now I really don't enjoy hashing out my own issues on the net' so much. I have been reading, thinking, mulling over - and talking to my partner about what he wants and what I can do for him. And in turn, he is doing the same.

 

 

No worries, if you change your mind and I don't see the thread, tag me!

[Liam1]

Yesterday was a heavy day... Lots of talking about this, which is certainly preferable to rug sweeping.

 

I think his forgiveness is him saying that he understands. That he doesn't want to blame me.

 

He is a communicator and that is good.

 

For instance - from yesterday - a "trigger" caused him to send me a text, and this followed:

 

Him - Anxiety gets the best of me

Me- Its my fault

I wish I could look you in the eye and reassure you

You don't deserve to feel this way

Him - No. Its our fault. We will be okay.

 

You never know what is truly going on in someone's mind, but at least your guy is willing to be vulnerable and to open up to you, obviously.

 

The comment about anxiety is interesting because I know people whose spouse never had an affair, yet they are often anxious about the relationship.

 

I really like the fact that he acknowledges that it is "our fault" rather than simply placing blame.

 

Still, obviously you are worried about something involving your relationship beyond the infidelity, can you tap into what that is?

 

You need not post your answer if you find one. I am just suggesting that you contemplate getting to the root of what is bothering you independent of the past infidelities.

[DAO]

Agreed

 

Also, forgiveness is defined as a cancelling of a debt. No need to earn that cancellation. It is bestowed by the person doing the forgiving.

 

To forgive:

verb

verb: forgive; 3rd person present: forgives; past tense: forgave; gerund or present participle: forgiving; past participle: forgiven

 

To stop feeling angry or resentful toward (someone) for an offense, flaw, or mistake.

"I don't think I'll ever forgive David for the way he treated her"

 

synonyms:make allowances for, feel no resentment toward, feel no malice toward, harbor no grudge against, bury the hatchet with;

let bygones be bygones;

informallet off (the hook);

formal

"she would not forgive him.

 

• stop feeling angry or resentful toward someone for (an offense, flaw, or mistake).
  "they are not going to pat my head and say all is forgiven"
  
• cancel (a debt).
  "he proposed that their debts should be forgiven"
  

 

Every now and then there is a discussion about forgiveness ,and there is many toughts on that topic ,but i never seen a shallow one like this.

 

First of all,forgiveness is the action or process of forgiving.Personally,I will add,it is also a concept.

 

Forgiveness does not have anything to do with the verb forgive.It is much better described as to be in the peace with.

 

My late master used to say:

1.One can forgive someone ,and then chop his/her head

2.One can forgive someone,and then slave (submit) him/her and continue relationship with him/her

3.One can forgive someone,and totally ignore him/her (as him/her never existed)

In any case,the forgiveness is always a punishment(No. 3 being highest one),as it always acknowledge the righteous one.

 

Non forgiveness is also forgiveness.

 

So much from me

[Liam1]

Every now and then there is a discussion about forgiveness ,and there is many toughts on that topic ,but i never seen a shallow one like this.

 

 

Dao:

 

I think you need to review the respect rules here.

 

You are entitled to disagree with my opinion but based on the forums respect rules you are not entitled to personally insult anyone's opinion.

 

It's certainly easy enough to post your opinion without needing to insult anyone else's point of view?

Edited May 31, 2016 by Liam1

[NTV]

That would be strings-attached forgiveness - not sure I'd really consider that forgiveness, more like a negotiation. I think the genuine article is given w/no expectation of personal benefit. Which isn't to say that in the context of a relationship you'd hope to put the issues behind you, but that's not the impetus of 'pure' forgiveness.

 

 

You know, coming back to this thread and I did some thinking about why I don't agree with you, and I think that my stance has more to do with my original childhood religious upbringing than anything else. The view espoused there without going into the differences in religious interpretation was that this religion believed that [God] would forgive [you] of [sin] if you prayed for forgiveness. And even in this context there was a string attached: [prayer].

 

 

(I apologize if the use of brackets makes the statement confusing, but I did not want to seem as though I was pushing my childhood religious believes.)

 

 

So, I think what I'm getting as is an acknowledgement that your definition of forgiveness varies from my considerably and probably more due to my institutionalized social-contextual adaption than from any self-introspection. That being said, I'd hafta learn how to un-apply that lens before I can truly open myself to other interpretations.

 

 

I say all this because I think that we all have several lenses (familial, social, ethnic, gender, etc.) that we apply when defining the word. So... not really sure what exactly I'm saying. lol

[DAO]

Dao:

 

I think you need to review the respect rules here.

 

You are entitled to disagree with my opinion but based on the forums respect rules you are not entitled to personally insult anyone's opinion.

 

It's certainly easy enough to post your opinion without needing to insult anyone else's point of view?

 

 

Liam1:

 

Please,do not go too far....

I did not insult you,nor your opinion,however it does not prevent you to take the moral high ground by accusing me of not respecting the rules and insult poor you.

Let us level the ground fist

In your post that I quoted you stated

 

Agreed

 

Also, forgiveness is defined as a cancelling of a debt. No need to earn that cancellation. It is bestowed by the person doing the forgivness

 

My response was,that definition is shallow,and I still think so.

In your post that I quoted you never stated it is your definition(opinion) of the forgiveness.If I knew,it was your definition,i would not bother to write a response to your post.

As for the future reference,please do not use your opinion as a general definition,and most importantly do not expect that all people will accept your definitions as valid ones

 

As a person who firmly believe it is immoral to talk about moral,I can not comprehend why did you quote Socrates after your emotional outburst.

All I know,when one take wrong out of his/her life there is no question of morality.

Edited June 1, 2016 by DAO

[Liam1]

Liam1:

 

 

 

 

My response was,that definition is shallow,and I still think so.

 

No actually this is what you said:

 

Every now and then there is a discussion about forgiveness ,and there is many toughts on that topic ,but i never seen a shallow one like this.

As a person who firmly believe it is immoral to talk about moral,I can not comprehend why did you quote Socrates after your emotional outburst.

 

All I know,when one take wrong out of his/her life there is no question of morality.

Well you are certainly entitled to your opinion, as long as you realize it is simply your opinion.

 

I never refer to someone's expressed opinion as an emotional outburst.

 

To me that would be rude and dismissive.

[JohnAdams]

Wrong thread

[Whoknew30]

but when you get on here, Liam and say that "An affair is not the worst thing to happen to a marriage," that is minimizing the pain of a lot of BS's here. And, it's minimizing what you did - you had an affair and blamed it on lack of sexual intimacy so it's ok. You're missing a huge opportunity to look at yourself and figure out WHY affair? Do you think what you did was actually honorable? Affairs aren't complex. Why is this thread full of that word? People get pissed and resentful and then act out like little babies (including myself in this) because things aren't going their way. But it's ok because marriage and the relationship is complex? Calling bull on this. It's basing your own actions on another's, or lack thereof. Do people really have that much power in your life that you can't control yourself but their actions do? That another person's actions cause you to abandon your own values? Think maybe that points to some work needing to be done?

Maybe in YOUR experience an affair is ok - although I hesitate to say that because you're a WS. You SAY you know what you'd do if your wife had a RA, but until you're there, I find it very condescending that you comment with things like this, considering you haven't been a BS.

 

 

I disagree to say that an A isn't the worst thing to happen in a marriage minimizes anything for anyone else. One can't get offended by other's experiences, as for example it wasn't the worst in my experience, if that bothers anyone, that is their problem...not the problem of the person that feels that way. IMO, the worst thing for a marriage is what ends it. I know people that forgave an A but divorced for other reasons, the other reason is what would have been the worst in their marriage bc that's what ended it.

[RecentChange]

Affairs aren't complex. Why is this thread full of that word? People get pissed and resentful and then act out like little babies (including myself in this) because things aren't going their way. But it's ok because marriage and the relationship is complex? Calling bull on this. It's basing your own actions on another's, or lack thereof.

 

Well, in my opinion, as BOTH a BS and a WS, yes, relationships are complex. Emotions, motivators, and our responses are complex. Its not all black and white and totally simple with villains and heroes. Doesn't make it "okay" - No, but it doesn't mean the only reason for affairs is "acting out like little babies". Understand that we all have different experiences because it isn't so simple.

 

when you get on here, Liam and say that "An affair is not the worst thing to happen to a marriage," that is minimizing the pain of a lot of BS's here.

 

For me, and others - it hasn't been the worst thing to happen. MY experience has nothing to do with minimizing someone else's emotions.

 

I have no idea what your whole story is - but it sounds like it is different from mine (again, because this stuff really isn't that simple).

 

Also - not all affairs are the same - I have read about ones on here that leave me SHOCKED.

 

My spouse banged some chick he met on a business trip, and kept talking to her a for a few weeks after. Was it symptom of the state of our relationship and his mental health? Yep. Was it an earth shattering end of the world for me? It was difficult, but nope, not catastrophic. Does it pale in compared to some stories I have read here? I certainly think so.

[katielee]

I disagree to say that an A isn't the worst thing to happen in a marriage minimizes anything for anyone else.

 

to say it as the gospel truth does minimize it.

 

he said, "An affair is not the worst thing that can happen in a marriage."

 

it was for many people. it wasn't for many people. it was for me and many on here.

Edited June 1, 2016 by katielee

[Whoknew30]

to say it as the gospel truth does minimize it.

 

No one said it as the gospel truth, they say it from their truth. Everyone has opinion, like I don't think it was the worst for mine bc we're still together. If we ended it than yes it would have been. I think it only bothers people that truly can't get over it themselves & have a hard time understanding others that can. That's in any situation though, if I couldn't get over something & struggled I'd be a little bit envious to read or hear someone else did & could & would wonder how it was easier for them & not myself. That's just human nature.

[Mrs. John Adams]

No one said it as the gospel truth, they say it from their truth. Everyone has opinion, like I don't think it was the worst for mine bc we're still together. If we ended it than yes it would have been. I think it only bothers people that truly can't get over it themselves & have a hard time understanding others that can. That's in any situation though, if I couldn't get over something & struggled I'd be a little bit envious to read or hear someone else did & could & would wonder how it was easier for them & not myself. That's just human nature.

 

My husbands affair was not the worst thing that has ever happened to me... The death of my granddaughter was

 

But my affair was the worst thing that ever happened to my husband

 

Measuring pain and hurts... Comparing the worst things and the best things are all relevant to the person experiencing them

 

Obviously katielee feels that her husbands two kissing infidelities were much worse than her infidelities because she experienced all four of them and can relate how they all felt to her.

 

What we think about her situation is irrelevant.

[ShatteredLady]

I list the things that have & are happening in my life & I'm sort of surprised by the things that members find are so incredibly awful for me (cancer) & things that don't seem so register (My parents health) which haunt me more.

 

I know that ALL of the things you've known & believed & nature/nurture etc hugely effect how one deals with other things.....the whole straws & camels back thing....but EVERYTHING is so very personal & so very complicated.

 

On chronic pain forums it's usually against the rules to compare pain because it's an incorrect thing to do. Scientifically you can list the most painful ailments but so many factors influence how one experiences pain it's a impossible thing to rate. You get deleted, warned & then banned.

 

Some members have experienced the most unimaginably horrific things in their life. I (hopefully) will never know what it's like to know those things. I was lucky in my family of origin compared to so many. Never had a boyfriend or even date that hurt me in any way....

 

Most of us are here because we hurt or we have hurt & want to help others. That is enough.

We seem to be comparing pain & dictionary definitions a lot lately! I KNOW that I'm incredibly fortunate compared to many people in this world. (Just being a woman born in a first world country makes me privileged by comparison to many!) I STILL HURT!!

[Whoknew30]

My husbands affair was not the worst thing that has ever happened to me... The death of my granddaughter was

 

But my affair was the worst thing that ever happened to my husband

 

Measuring pain and hurts... Comparing the worst things and the best things are all relevant to the person experiencing them

 

Obviously katielee feels that her husbands two kissing infidelities were much worse than her infidelities because she experienced all four of them and can relate how they all felt to her.

 

What we think about her situation is irrelevant.

 

First, I'm really sorry about your granddaughter passing...may her memory be eternal...

 

2nd, that was my point to katielee, someone talking about their experience shouldn't affect anyone else's experience.

[Mrs. John Adams]

First, I'm really sorry about your granddaughter passing...may her memory be eternal...

 

2nd, that was my point to katielee, someone talking about their experience shouldn't affect anyone else's experience.

 

Agreed....we all need to be mindful when we post to not use generalities that seem to indicate inclusiveness.

 

I try to make statements that are personal...I don't always succeed in doing so.

 

Participating on forums is sometimes difficult....often we do not word things exactly right...and things are misconstrued by those reading the comments.