Feeling Lied To By Disney and Chick Flicks

[basil67]

On the topic of wanting a secure woman.....

 

A secure woman wants a secure man. A man who still blames Disney, religion and parents for his views on life isn't going to be on her radar. That's not to say that you can't get a secure woman in the future - but first you have to stop playing victim and start being proactive about forming your own ideas.

 

Regarding the stories we were told as children - I'm gen X, so as a little girl in the early 70's, my stories were filled with SAHMs and working dads. And this was the case for my parents too. But as I grew older, I saw that some friends had mothers who worked. I recall being a little surprised, but rather than being upset at what I'd been told, I simply chalked it up to learning more about the world. For most of us, we grow out of childhood stories...and we know that the lives our parents led won't necessarily be the live we lead.

[Wave Rider]

You are what’s called an “anxious avoider” or “passive avoider.” While the woman you become attracted to are “active avoiders.” You are the one who stays and tries to fix an unhealthy situation.... while they are the ones running away.

 

If you were NOT also an avoider (in your case an “anxious/passive avoider,”) you could never ever tolerate being involved with an active avoidant distant women..

 

 

I went ahead and ordered this book from amazon, and I read what I could online. It seems like an interesting take on attachment theory. I agree that both the anxious and the avoidant are avoiding intimacy, but in different ways. The avoidant avoids intimacy by running away, and the anxious avoids intimacy by choosing partners who are incapable of it, namely avoidants. So both avoid intimacy. I'll be interested to see what solutions they give, though I can probably take some guesses as to what they are.

 

It is counterintuitively true that I have indeed avoided intimacy by only being attracted to women who are incapable of it. The corollary of that is that I run away from secure available women, and this is also true. So, part of the solution on this would be to lean into the discomfort I would feel if ever I were talking to an interested, secure, available woman.

 

Many of them feature a woman who saves the male lead (Pocohontas, Mulan, Little Mermaid, Lilio and Stitch, Princess and the Frog, Peter Pan, Finding Nemo)

.....

I think you're blaming Disney for rose colored glasses that, on careful review, they never actually gave you.

 

In some cases it might be unclear who is saving who. I suppose it's true that Disney does't weave a coherent universal narrative. Perhaps I wove the narrative from Disney, Mormonism, and chick flicks, at least the parts of those that I wanted to believe.

 

Precisely. The OP needs to learn about the concept of internal validation. Love and acceptance have to come from within and from people who are capable of giving it, not chase it from those that aren't.

 

See, most self-help gurus seem to believe that people need to have internal validation as their sole source of validation, such that the don't need any validation from other people, not even from those capable of giving it. That would be total independence and total self-containment with very strong boundaries.

 

Frankly, I think this is about needing validation that you're lovable.

I do believe that I am lovable, at least on a conscious level. If there is a part of me that believes I'm unlovable, it's been long buried nine layers down in my unconscious, and if I could ever find it, which I doubt I could, I don't think I could arbitrarily change it.

 

On the topic of wanting a secure woman.....

 

A secure woman wants a secure man. A man who still blames Disney, religion and parents for his views on life isn't going to be on her radar. That's not to say that you can't get a secure woman in the future - but first you have to stop playing victim and start being proactive about forming your own ideas.

 

I've spent the last two years trying to develop secure attachment. It's not easy. There's no evidence that secure attachment can be developed in therapy. There's no evidence that it can't be done, but no one has studied it. It's hard. And yeah, playing Victim role won't help. I've done a lot of study on the Victim syndrome and the Karpman Drama Triangle, and I've tried to change it. Progress is kinda slow, though, because there are a lot of automatic responses ingrained over many generations. Typically, Victims come from multi-generational Victim families. They come from long line of Victims. I am trying to change this Victim syndrome, but progress is only modest.

Edited May 21, 2016 by Wave Rider

[katiegrl]

I've spent the last two years trying to develop secure attachment. It's not easy. There's no evidence that secure attachment can be developed in therapy. There's no evidence that it can't be done, but no one has studied it. It's hard.

 

Talk to your therapist about conditioning. I am surprised after having seen 17 of them, not one of them discussed this with you.

 

As I and I think it may have been xoxo said earlier, you need to re-condition yourself to become attracted to a different type of woman.

 

Someone who actually loves you, wants to spend time with you, does not have a fear of intimacy/attachment and who makes you feel safe and secure.

 

Yes it WILL be hard.

 

I think it will be especially hard for you because you are not, and have never been, familiar with this type of love/attachment style being that you grew up with TWO parents who never made you feel safe and secure.

 

So this will be especially foreign to you, but it CAN be done.

 

However, first thing you need to do is learn to love yourself and realize that you are worthy of this type of person and their love.

 

And FORGIVE your parents (within yourself). They did the best they could... given the issues they both apparently had (or still have if still alive).

 

Then when you find it, force yourself to NOT run from it.

 

Yes you will have ambivalent feelings and may even feel turned off. That is NORMAL.

 

But that's only because you are not familiar with it so it will be uncomfortable at first.

 

But STAY with it. DON'T run. This is how you re-condition yourself, it's like driving a car again after a bad accident.

 

You will be scared to death to get into that car. When you start driving, you will feel anxious, and want to stop and get out. You may even feel panicked!

 

But after awhile, you realize "hey this is okay." "I like this." "This feels good."

 

Consider it a challenge to STAY with it even when you become anxious and turned off. Know where those turned off feelings are coming from, NOT from anything SHE's doing I can tell you that.

 

They are all coming from within YOU because you are unfamiliar and have fears.

 

Nuff said from me. Enjoy the book, and good luck.

Edited May 21, 2016 by katiegrl

[scorpiogirl]

I went ahead and ordered this book from amazon, and I read what I could online. It seems like an interesting take on attachment theory. I agree that both the anxious and the avoidant are avoiding intimacy, but in different ways. The avoidant avoids intimacy by running away, and the anxious avoids intimacy by choosing partners who are incapable of it, namely avoidants. So both avoid intimacy. I'll be interested to see what solutions they give, though I can probably take some guesses as to what they are.

 

It is counterintuitively true that I have indeed avoided intimacy by only being attracted to women who are incapable of it. The corollary of that is that I run away from secure available women, and this is also true. So, part of the solution on this would be to lean into the discomfort I would feel if ever I were talking to an interested, secure, available woman.

 

 

 

In some cases it might be unclear who is saving who. I suppose it's true that Disney does't weave a coherent universal narrative. Perhaps I wove the narrative from Disney, Mormonism, and chick flicks, at least the parts of those that I wanted to believe.

 

 

 

See, most self-help gurus seem to believe that people need to have internal validation as their sole source of validation, such that the don't need any validation from other people, not even from those capable of giving it. That would be total independence and total self-containment with very strong boundaries.

 

 

I do believe that I am lovable, at least on a conscious level. If there is a part of me that believes I'm unlovable, it's been long buried nine layers down in my unconscious, and if I could ever find it, which I doubt I could, I don't think I could arbitrarily change it.

 

 

 

I've spent the last two years trying to develop secure attachment. It's not easy. There's no evidence that secure attachment can be developed in therapy. There's no evidence that it can't be done, but no one has studied it. It's hard. And yeah, playing Victim role won't help. I've done a lot of study on the Victim syndrome and the Karpman Drama Triangle, and I've tried to change it. Progress is kinda slow, though, because there are a lot of automatic responses ingrained over many generations. Typically, Victims come from multi-generational Victim families. They come from long line of Victims. I am trying to change this Victim syndrome, but progress is only modest.

 

 

 

Unless you have a degree in psychology, all this self study is pointless. Theory is useless if you can't put it into practice.

 

Given that you have seen as many therapists as you say, perhaps you need to re-evaluate the way your sessions are going. 16 or 17 of them can't be wrong.

What are you choosing to reveal and what are you keeping hidden? How much work are you prepared to put in?

 

When I first started therapy, it was an uphill battle. I blamed myself for everything and no matter what my therapist told me, I didn't budge for a long time.

 

I also think it's a huge mistake to go into therapy with a self-diagnosis. That's like going to a doctor and telling him what's wrong with you, rather than what your symptoms are. Then you might as well not have seen him or her.

 

Also, with regard to what your mother said about wishing she never married or had children, how can you possibly think that your feelings of being unloveable are buried beneath "nine layers"?

If my mother said she wished she'd never had children, i'd take that very very personally.

We human beings are already so fragile, despite what we portray to the outside world, that something as harsh as what your mother said can't BUT be hurtful and damaging.

 

If you really want to change, you need to take responsibility for yourself. Write down your issues, how you feel, try therapy again and be honest with yourself and with them. Be open.

Enough with the church and Disney and chick flicks. I believed in fairy tales too. And then I grew up.

[Wave Rider]

Talk to your therapist about conditioning. I am surprised after having seen 17 of them, not one of them discussed this with you.

 

Well yeah, I know about conditioning. Good old Pavlov and his dogs. Plus other types of conditioning. Maybe that would help.

 

I also think it's a huge mistake to go into therapy with a self-diagnosis.

 

This is something that I have thought about, but with therapists, it's more complicated than with doctors. When you go to a doctor, you see a GP first. When you go to a therapist, you go directly to a specialist, because each therapist has certain specialties and certain schools of thought they adhere to. The type of therapist you choose depends to some degree on your self-diagnosis. You have to do some self-diagnosis, otherwise you're going to get a lot of "that's not my specialty" from the therapists you visit. I'm seeing a relationship therapist right now, because I have relationship problems.

 

I was misdiagnosed as having ADD for a long time. I took ADD medication for probably 10 years. But the medication didn't help, because I don't have ADD. So they do make mistakes in diagnosis sometimes.

 

We human beings are already so fragile, despite what we portray to the outside world, that something as harsh as what your mother said can't BUT be hurtful and damaging.

 

Unlike animals, who are routinely in life-threatening situations but rarely sustain psychological trauma, humans are easily psychologically traumatized. I've searched for many years for ways to heal those early childhood traumas, and I've never found a way. Here's an interesting article on the trauma-trouble link. A couple of interesting ideas from this article are:

 

First, both therapists and patients should resist the temptation to assume that specific current behaviors can be usefully explained by referring to specific early experiences. The temptation is great, because patients often seek such explanations, and psychologists would love to be able to provide them....Those who suffer similar early circumstances rarely share a similar symptom profile in adulthood.

 

Understanding the limited prediction value of each specific early trauma is important since many laypersons, as well as some therapists, still assume that they need to know the exact root causes of a condition to fix it. This assumption is incorrect. Perhaps the major contribution of the cognitive-behavioral school of therapy has been to turn the focus of therapy toward the here-and-now and to show empirically how precise knowledge of the historical causes of a problem is not a precondition for overcoming it.

 

...it is crucial that [therapists] understand, and explain to their patients, that what caused a problem in the past is often different from what maintains it in the present. As Allport (1937) famously argued, while adult motives grow out of antecedent systems, they are functionally independent of them. In terms of contemporary therapy, we can say that tracing your current fear of dogs to an early childhood encounter with a scary poodle may plausibly tell us why you became scared of dogs back then. It does not tell us why your fear continues today, after both your childhood and that poodle are long gone. (What causes your fear now is more likely your avoidance. You are afraid of dogs now because you avoid them). Therapists should augment their search for what may have initiated the patient's problems with a more important search for what may be perpetuating the problem in the present.

 

I have felt for a long time that something went wrong in my childhood. I also felt that until I discovered what went wrong and made it right, I would never be able to be a functioning adult. Maybe that is wrong. It's true that perhaps I avoided intimacy in the past because of my parent's bad marriage, but that doesn't tell me why I avoid intimacy now, long after I've moved out of my parents' house. And though I believed the underlying messages in Disney movies and Mormonism when I actively participated in them, that doesn't explain why I continue to hold onto those beliefs long after I stopped going to church, and long after I essentially stopped watching Disney movies.

Edited May 21, 2016 by Wave Rider

[puzzleddad67]

I feel lied to by Happy Days. Henry Winkler (Fonzy) is and always was the direct opposite of a tough guy. My daughter could take him.

 

Oh no.

[basil67]

I've spent the last two years trying to develop secure attachment. It's not easy. There's no evidence that secure attachment can be developed in therapy. There's no evidence that it can't be done, but no one has studied it. It's hard. And yeah, playing Victim role won't help. I've done a lot of study on the Victim syndrome and the Karpman Drama Triangle, and I've tried to change it. Progress is kinda slow, though, because there are a lot of automatic responses ingrained over many generations. Typically, Victims come from multi-generational Victim families. They come from long line of Victims. I am trying to change this Victim syndrome, but progress is only modest.

 

hehe - I've got absolutely no idea about most of what you're talking about here.

 

I'm out of this conversation now. Good luck.

[Wave Rider]

I got a lot of negative comments from people on this thread, and that's fine. I think I'm ready to speak a little more about what I really feel I was lied to about. I felt like Disney and chick flicks show the search for a parter as a spiritual journey or a quasi-spiritual journey, involving terms like love, destiny, and transcendence. But it appears that finding a partner is more like the journey of finding a job, and involves terms like qualifications, competition, and market value. It's all still somewhat confusing, but instead of searching for my "other half" that the universe has ordained by destiny for me to find and fall in love with, I apparently need to realize that I am in a competitive marketplace for a partner, and so I need to improve my qualifications if I want to qualify for the "job" of being a partner in a relationship.

 

In so many ways, I was taught from a young age that finding a job was going to be a competition, but I was not raised with the belief that finding a romantic partner was going to be even more competitive than finding a job; and I can say that searching for a partner is more competitive than searching for a job because more people have jobs than have partners.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Wave Rider

[lana-banana]

Your comparison of the journeys to find work versus love are very interesting. I mulled it over during dinner but don't have any useful conclusions yet. You're completely correct that society still portrays a prestigious job as the result of hard work when it's often just a matter of luck or good connections.

 

I do think love is a bit more nuanced than you're accounting for. Nobody portrays relationships themselves as pure fortune, do they? It's the first meeting, the magical moment where boy meets girl and sparks fly, that's attributed to luck. The problem is that most Disney movies and chick flicks don't invest much more beyond this moment. In many movies that magical moment is where the story ends, or it's a jump cut away to a walk down the aisle. Real relationships are hard work. Just like a job.

 

My issue with your posts is the puzzling belief in these stories despite ample evidence to the contrary and your disproportionate anger at said stories for being, well, stories. "Society" (I don't really agree, but let's use your terminology) also tells us that bad guys are always punished, but I think most of us have figured out this isn't true by the age of six. You talked about all the unhealthy relationships you witnessed in your life I am baffled by the extent of your indignation and, as I've said before, I suspect you're just looking for places to cast blame. But that's not a healthy way to go about things.

 

Cultures will always have narratives that reflect their ideals, fears and values. That's why we have tropes about brave men showing courage and doing virtuous deeds. There's no point in resenting the stories we tell because those stories are part and parcel of being human.

 

PS: romantic literature has featured couples fighting for their relationships since time immemorial. If you only pursued stories where everything was easy, breezy and destined by fate, that's partially on you.

Edited June 16, 2016 by lana-banana

[basil67]

I got a lot of negative comments from people on this thread, and that's fine. I think I'm ready to speak a little more about what I really feel I was lied to about. I felt like Disney and chick flicks show the search for a parter as a spiritual journey or a quasi-spiritual journey, involving terms like love, destiny, and transcendence. But it appears that finding a partner is more like the journey of finding a job, and involves terms like qualifications, competition, and market value. It's all still somewhat confusing, but instead of searching for my "other half" that the universe has ordained by destiny for me to find and fall in love with, I apparently need to realize that I am in a competitive marketplace for a partner, and so I need to improve my qualifications if I want to qualify for the "job" of being a partner in a relationship.

 

In so many ways, I was taught from a young age that finding a job was going to be a competition, but I was not raised with the belief that finding a romantic partner was going to be even more competitive than finding a job; and I can say that searching for a partner is more competitive than searching for a job because more people have jobs than have partners.

 

For sure! There is no person which destiny has laid aside for us. (I don't believe in destiny anyway) Finding a partner is a combination of having good people skills and being in the right place at the right time. A combination of good management and luck.

[neowulf]

Is there any point in believing the fairy tale - as most people secretly do - when the reality is much different? What are realistic expectations?

 

Do you know what we don't see the news?

 

Happy couple find love, have a couple of kids, buy a house and live a pretty ordinary, happy existence. We don't really hear much about the people with happy, ordinary marriages, just living their lives. They're no where as interesting to focus on.

 

You know that stat about how 50% of marriages fail? The *other* 50% are trucking along just fine, living their lives.

 

We tell fairy tales to our *children* to give them hopes and dreams. Because hopes and dreams are what keep us going, when life kicks us in the teeth repeatedly.

 

Yes, life CAN be a cruel, bitter and cold place. You can be be kicked, lied to, broken. It CAN be brutal and unfair.

 

Yet, it can also be beautiful, soft, kind. It can have moments of great joy, wonder and excitement. I wouldn't give up my memories of my first kiss, though she's long gone from my life now.

 

Sure, life isn't perfect. Life isn't always the way we'd like. But it's a choice to allow those realisations to make us bitter.

[xxoo]

 

In so many ways, I was taught from a young age that finding a job was going to be a competition, but I was not raised with the belief that finding a romantic partner was going to be even more competitive than finding a job; and I can say that searching for a partner is more competitive than searching for a job because more people have jobs than have partners.

 

I wasn't raised to see finding a romantic partner as a competition, either, but I figured out quickly in middle and high school that certain people got more attention from the opposite sex than others, and I observed the reasons why. I continued with those observations throughout adolescence.

 

It sounds like you believe others were given special knowledge and instruction that you didn't have. Where do you think everyone else learned it?

[Wave Rider]

My issue with your posts is the puzzling belief in these stories despite ample evidence to the contrary and your disproportionate anger at said stories for being, well, stories. "Society" (I don't really agree, but let's use your terminology) also tells us that bad guys are always punished, but I think most of us have figured out this isn't true by the age of six. You talked about all the unhealthy relationships you witnessed in your life I am baffled by the extent of your indignation and, as I've said before, I suspect you're just looking for places to cast blame. But that's not a healthy way to go about things.

 

It sounds like you believe others were given special knowledge and instruction that you didn't have. Where do you think everyone else learned it?

 

That does seem to be true. I don't know why other people figured it out and I didn't. And some people still haven't figured it out: there are plenty of men and women of all ages who are still entertaining fantasies of meeting Prince or Princess Charming. There are plenty of people who go from one marriage to another, from one partner to another, searching for a fantasy relationship that they never find.

 

Some people people figured out that Mormonism wasn't what it claimed to be when they were teenagers. It took me longer than that. And some people never figure out that Mormonism isn't what it claims to be.

 

Some people stay in bad relationships for their whole life, indulging in fantasies that their partner will change, but their partner never does. I don't have an explanation for why some people are able to see that their fantasies are wrong, and why some people spend years longer, sometimes their whole lives, indulging in these fantasies.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Wave Rider

[xxoo]

That does seem to be true. I don't know why other people figured it out and I didn't. And some people still haven't figured it out: there are plenty of men and women of all ages who are still entertaining fantasies of meeting Prince or Princess Charming. There are plenty of people who go from one marriage to another, from one partner to another, searching for a fantasy relationship that they never find.

 

Some people people figured out that Mormonism wasn't what it claimed to be when they were teenagers. It took me longer than that. And some people never figure out that Mormonism isn't what it claims to be.

 

Some people stay in bad relationships for their whole life, indulging in fantasies that their partner will change, but their partner never does. I don't have an explanation for why some people are able to see that their fantasies are wrong, and why some people spend years longer, sometimes their whole lives, indulging in these fantasies.

 

People have different strengths and weaknesses. Relationships are a skill, and a potential strength, just like anything else. And just like anything else, developing that skill is based partly on natural ability, partly on interest, and partly on hard work. Practice.

 

What I notice is that many people who struggle at dating also struggle at platonic friendships. Many seem to simply not enjoy developing friendship, so they don't get the practice and they fall way, way behind others who are practicing every day, from elementary school forward.

 

BTW, I was raised in a fundamentalist church, and I figured out quick that wasn't for me. Before the age of 16, I was out. I was physically sitting in the church, but my mind was free.

Edited June 17, 2016 by xxoo

[Els]

Who the hell actually believes that Disney = real life?!?! Are you feeling lied to also because birds don't do your laundry for you when you sing, and carpets don't REALLY fly?

[Emilia]

What I notice is that many people who struggle at dating also struggle at platonic friendships. Many seem to simply not enjoy developing friendship, so they don't get the practice and they fall way, way behind others who are practicing every day, from elementary school forward.

100%. I'd also mention opposite sex friendships specifically because they teach you how to relate to those you have sexual interest in beyond physical, being able to build a bond that goes beyond physical attraction. Social skills and empathy go a very long way in romantic relationships.

 

I don't know if 'competition in the market place' is a good way to describe dating though there is some competition no doubt. I think it's more about taking care of yourself and looking for someone who also takes care of themselves. That's how I see it anyway.

[Aniela]

100%. I'd also mention opposite sex friendships specifically because they teach you how to relate to those you have sexual interest in beyond physical, being able to build a bond that goes beyond physical attraction. Social skills and empathy go a very long way in romantic relationships.

 

I don't know if 'competition in the market place' is a good way to describe dating though there is some competition no doubt. I think it's more about taking care of yourself and looking for someone who also takes care of themselves. That's how I see it anyway.

 

This is what I told myself when I was all upset and bordering on bitterness: that I needed to become friends with men again, to be reminded of the decent men out there. The only trouble is, that I'm good at the platonic stuff - I'm not so good when a man obviously likes me. There have been the men who caused trouble in my life, but there were also the socially awkward ones who moved way too fast - I tend to get nervous, and be like this: http://media.giphy.com/media/rqhOPMZcRKeli/giphy.gif

 

There would have to be a certain amount of comfort there, for me to get very far with anyone. That's why I never understood the men who didn't want to be friends with women.

[Els]

100%. I'd also mention opposite sex friendships specifically because they teach you how to relate to those you have sexual interest in beyond physical, being able to build a bond that goes beyond physical attraction. Social skills and empathy go a very long way in romantic relationships.

 

Agreed. Whenever I see guys on LS say "I'm not interested in being friends with women", I just shake my head. Whatever floats their boat, but they're just shooting themselves in the foot right there IMO. I don't think it's possible for someone to be any good in LTRs if they think friendships with the opposite sex are worthless. Never seen it happen.

[GoodOnPaper]

Agreed. Whenever I see guys on LS say "I'm not interested in being friends with women", I just shake my head.

 

I think that's because "friends with women" sounds very serious, like we're at the level of driving them to/from the airport, taking care of their dogs or cats, and pouring our hearts out about our hopes and fears. And all that adds up to unrequited romantic attraction. Then to take it a step further, I never felt comfortable being friends with a woman I couldn't be attracted to because, according to the above logic, I'd feel like I would be leading her on.

 

If you told us that we need to "be friendly acquaintances with women", I have a feeling that would get across the message you're trying to send.

[thelastunicorn]

Millennial here. Never bought into fairy tale crap and at the age of 9 I knew I wanted to be independent and wasnt even remotely interested in the idea of being married one day (that has changed) . I was incredibly observant of my parents relationship and was aware that marriage actually takes a lot of work at a young age. Not because my parents had a bunch of crazy fights but by watching how they communicate and did their best to support each other. This is probably why I care way more about a man's character than I do superficial stuff. My standards are high but not because of bogus media stuff.

[Emilia]

I think that's because "friends with women" sounds very serious, like we're at the level of driving them to/from the airport, taking care of their dogs or cats, and pouring our hearts out about our hopes and fears. And all that adds up to unrequited romantic attraction. Then to take it a step further, I never felt comfortable being friends with a woman I couldn't be attracted to because, according to the above logic, I'd feel like I would be leading her on.

 

If you told us that we need to "be friendly acquaintances with women", I have a feeling that would get across the message you're trying to send.

Your post just illustrated Elswyth's and my point. You are incapable of seeing women as independent human beings with an ability to handle different levels of emotional bonds.

 

None of my male friends - and some of them are close friends - drive me to or from the airport (I have my own transport, crazy I know), we don't pour out our hearts about hopes and fears. We go to rugby matches, drink beer and occasionally discuss when one of us is going through a break up but mostly it's about relaxing and talking sport.

 

Last time I needed to move house, I called a moving company rather than call any of them. That's because I have the money to pay someone to do the s***y jobs. I don't text my male friends at 1am pouring my heart out.

 

If I had a crush on a mate, I would work out a way around it. It's not big deal.

 

I don't think you understand how women work on a platonic level.

[GoodOnPaper]

None of my male friends - and some of them are close friends - drive me to or from the airport (I have my own transport, crazy I know), we don't pour out our hearts about hopes and fears. We go to rugby matches, drink beer and occasionally discuss when one of us is going through a break up but mostly it's about relaxing and talking sport.

 

I think guys can relate to this - it sounds exactly like how we relate to other guys. But this definitely sounds more casual than what comes across when women tell struggling guys that they need to be "friends" with women.

 

I don't think you understand how women work on a platonic level.

 

I'm sure not. However, I know myself, and for me with women, friendship and romantic feelings are on the same continuous spectrum. As friendship becomes deeper, romantic feelings come along for the ride. Formal boundaries help - any women who I consider more than acquaintances are either "couples" friends or work colleagues who are also married.

 

I can't be entirely crazy, though, can I? Friends of the opposite sex are often sources of concern on the marriage forums. That wouldn't be the case if most people believed that friendship and romantic feelings are always separate.

[GorillaTheater]

I can't be entirely crazy, though, can I? Friends of the opposite sex are often sources of concern on the marriage forums. That wouldn't be the case if most people believed that friendship and romantic feelings are always separate.

 

 

Like a lot of things, I think your average internet forum can really exaggerate the dangers in opposite sex relationships. Sure, they can get out of hand, but much more frequently they don't, especially when the folks involved have and maintain appropriate boundaries. I have a lot of female friends, and do talk to them about pretty much the same stuff I talk to my male friends about. In fact on internet forums I seem to relate to women easier than men. Beats the hell out me why, but there you are. One factor could be that I have no interest in getting in their pants or impress them. No pressure.

 

 

I also think it helps a lot as far as romantic relationships that you're able to talk to relate to women out of the romantic context. You will typically spend a lot more time talking to them than screwing them.

[Timshel]

People connect to other people (male and female) by attraction. As a woman, I am attracted to other women who inspire, fascinate and share common interests. It doesn't take long in a room full of women to gravitate towards a few. The same applies to male attraction.....we have commonalities and really, a natural inclination and comfort...or not.

If an opposite sex friendship becomes romantic/sexual, then it falls outside the parameters of friendship.

 

It's natural to be friends with either men or women of the opposite sex....it is also natural to feel an attraction on some level for both, regardless of gender. There is a difference between pursuit and natural flow.

 

 

Wave Rider, make an effort to be present in the moment that you are. Media is by and large fantasy, partial and capitalist.

Take both men and women at face value with no expectations except to be treated with respect and kindness and deliver the same with actions and words. Start with this and do not entertain any treatment that is less.

Fantasies do not exist (well, until someone has to pee, gets sick, farts, etc..... is human)...only compatibility/chemistry.

 

The most beautiful and long lasting marriages/partners are those who except the whole person, flaws and all.

 

 

That does seem to be true. I don't know why other people figured it out and I didn't. And some people still haven't figured it out: there are plenty of men and women of all ages who are still entertaining fantasies of meeting Prince or Princess Charming. There are plenty of people who go from one marriage to another, from one partner to another, searching for a fantasy relationship that they never find.

 

Some people people figured out that Mormonism wasn't what it claimed to be when they were teenagers. It took me longer than that. And some people never figure out that Mormonism isn't what it claims to be.

 

Some people stay in bad relationships for their whole life, indulging in fantasies that their partner will change, but their partner never does. I don't have an explanation for why some people are able to see that their fantasies are wrong, and why some people spend years longer, sometimes their whole lives, indulging in these fantasies.

[True Gent]

I haven't read every post in this thread, but I'll say this... I don't know of one single fairytale relationship IRL. Nobody I know has the fairytale life with their partner. My parents were together for 40 years until my Dad died, they didn't have a relationship which I aspired too. It was far from ideal, no fairytale that's for sure. I do believe they loved each other though!

 

My siblings have all went through breakups and divorce. One sister is with her husband for the sake of financial security and the fact he's the father of their children, they don't love each other by any means.

 

My friends are either a mixture of gong through divorce or on very rocky ground. The ones who aren't are just together through habit and live in loveless, sexless marriages.

 

I've just went through another breakup after the shortest relationship I've ever had. My ex Fiancée who I believed to be 'the one' turned out to be a lying cheat who completely changed her goals and desires in life during our 9 years together.

 

The Disney stuff and the chick flicks are all fiction. Very much like action movies and sci fi it's all crap.

 

I really do not beleive in 'soul mates'. I think the older we become and the more we witness failed relationships the harder it becomes to really beleive in finding that partner for life.

 

The one and only person you can truly rely on for your own well being and happiness is yourself. Anyone else is just whoever happens to be hanging around at the time.