Feeling Lied To By Disney and Chick Flicks

[Aniela]

I know someone who sort of has the fairy tale now, only it took her thirty years to get there with this person. He loved her in high school, but she had her heart broken and loved the fun bad boys (as she described them). They've known each other the whole time, as she went through her relationships - including an abusive marriage - and he had more than one marriage of his own (they usually wouldn't have much contact if he was married, because his wives didn't like her very much). They've been seriously dating for at least six months now, and she thinks they will grow old together.

[dreamingoftigers]

I got a lot of negative comments from people on this thread, and that's fine. I think I'm ready to speak a little more about what I really feel I was lied to about. I felt like Disney and chick flicks show the search for a parter as a spiritual journey or a quasi-spiritual journey, involving terms like love, destiny, and transcendence. But it appears that finding a partner is more like the journey of finding a job, and involves terms like qualifications, competition, and market value. It's all still somewhat confusing, but instead of searching for my "other half" that the universe has ordained by destiny for me to find and fall in love with, I apparently need to realize that I am in a competitive marketplace for a partner, and so I need to improve my qualifications if I want to qualify for the "job" of being a partner in a relationship.

 

In so many ways, I was taught from a young age that finding a job was going to be a competition, but I was not raised with the belief that finding a romantic partner was going to be even more competitive than finding a job; and I can say that searching for a partner is more competitive than searching for a job because more people have jobs than have partners.

 

I don't know whether it is "more competitive" or "less competitive."

 

It isn't just about "competing." But it is definitely like a marketplace.

 

I work in Real Estate and it kind of is like pricing yourself accordingly.

 

I find that a lot of men overvalue themselves on the dating market and then it turns off so many potential buyers (women) that they won't even negotiate. Because, of course, it just feels like he "settled" for you etc.

 

I think a lot of men have the idea that if they "shoot high, then the average girl will settle for them." Or maybe they just think that there are enough 18 year olds with 36-24-36 figures for every male on the planet that wants one IDK.

 

Being realistic about who you want in a partner shows maturity and that is a quality most likely to attract another compatible partner.

 

And yeah, I find people that use terms like "soul mate" and "destiny" and "meant to be" are pretty immature in relationships.

[Aniela]

I got a lot of negative comments from people on this thread, and that's fine. I think I'm ready to speak a little more about what I really feel I was lied to about. I felt like Disney and chick flicks show the search for a parter as a spiritual journey or a quasi-spiritual journey, involving terms like love, destiny, and transcendence. But it appears that finding a partner is more like the journey of finding a job, and involves terms like qualifications, competition, and market value.

 

This is one thing that put me off when I was younger: the feeling that dating seemed to be like a job interview, only sex was expected as well. I had hormones like every other teenager, but it seemed like boys expected everything to happen by the third date, and I wasn't ready for that. I am a romantic, and have needed the Hallmark part of my brain to be activated, as well. Having some strange guy wanting to stick his tongue in my mouth, or do more? No way. That wasn't going to happen.

 

I think you took the negative or joking comments well: I don't think I would have, unless I started the thread with a sense of humour about it myself.

[NTV]

Agreed. Whenever I see guys on LS say "I'm not interested in being friends with women", I just shake my head. Whatever floats their boat, but they're just shooting themselves in the foot right there IMO. I don't think it's possible for someone to be any good in LTRs if they think friendships with the opposite sex are worthless. Never seen it happen.

 

So for me I'm not interested in being friends with most women I've met. Most women, and I'll admit I could get out more) tend to have much different interests. Like shopping as a 'hobby'. That particular hobby just disturbs me. But 8 can imagine that's how a lot of women feel about sports. If I came across someone with same interests I'd probably be friends... but really I have enough friends. And I'm married. So not really interested in making new ones.

[xxoo]

So for me I'm not interested in being friends with most women I've met. Most women, and I'll admit I could get out more) tend to have much different interests. Like shopping as a 'hobby'. That particular hobby just disturbs me. But 8 can imagine that's how a lot of women feel about sports. If I came across someone with same interests I'd probably be friends... but really I have enough friends. And I'm married. So not really interested in making new ones.

 

These are such stereotypes. I know tons and tons of women who have favorite teams and even play sports.

 

Plus, I know a lot of men who are shoppers. My H is more of a shopper than me, and he buys me most of my clothes.

 

Being friends is about enjoying this person's company. I've had male friends since middle school. My teenage daughter has male friends. Those boys are smart boys, socially. By being friends with her, they get all her tips and advice and set ups with her friends, plus they just get to practice relating to girls.

 

But that is another thing commonly heard with guys who struggle with dating: they don't enjoy spending time with women. Well, that's going to be a problem with dating, yes. Women like men who actually like women.

[xxoo]

I think that's because "friends with women" sounds very serious, like we're at the level of driving them to/from the airport, taking care of their dogs or cats, and pouring our hearts out about our hopes and fears. And all that adds up to unrequited romantic attraction. Then to take it a step further, I never felt comfortable being friends with a woman I couldn't be attracted to because, according to the above logic, I'd feel like I would be leading her on.

 

These conclusions are really difficult for me to understand, but it does sound like you're uncomfortable relating with women (worrying about someone having a broken heart instead of relaxing and enjoying making a friend).

 

I'd guess that the women you've run across have no idea you were worried about such things, and only found you to be standoffish without explanation. Likely they'd assume you are a bit snobby.

[Imajerk17]

Well, there's a big difference between:

 

1. Actually being friends with a woman, where you mutually benefit from your different perspectives and energy, vs

 

2. Being in the Friendzone w a woman, where she isn't really your friend; you're more like an orbiter.

 

I think a few guys here think they are one and the same, or rather, 2. above is all they know about being friends w women. So that's why they don't want to be friends. I tend to see things more along the lines of what GorillaTheater and xxoo and Emilia said.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Imajerk17

[basil67]

 

If you told us that we need to "be friendly acquaintances with women", I have a feeling that would get across the message you're trying to send.

 

Rather than talk about being friends with women, I'm more likely to suggest he has a mixed gender friendship group. Does this make more sense?

 

My husband had many female friends in his friendship groups. Over time, he's run with them, drank with them, worked with them and partied with them. But I don't think he's ever done anything for them which he hasn't done for a male friend.

[basil67]

Being friends is about enjoying this person's company. I've had male friends since middle school. My teenage daughter has male friends. Those boys are smart boys, socially. By being friends with her, they get all her tips and advice and set ups with her friends, plus they just get to practice relating to girls.

 

But that is another thing commonly heard with guys who struggle with dating: they don't enjoy spending time with women. Well, that's going to be a problem with dating, yes. Women like men who actually like women.

 

So much this!

 

You've just described me and my daughter too. Her friends are all so respectful of the opposite sex and simply enjoy each other's company. They are in year 11 now and are all starting to date too.

 

I also love that their boundaries are solid - she was telling me last night about one teen guy with really sexist views who has been ejected from a number of friendship groups (including hers). Apparently he's finally realised that the needs to change his attitude if he's to have friends. These kids give me so much hope for the future.

 

And I can't agree more about simply "liking" the opposite sex.

[dreamingoftigers]

These are such stereotypes. I know tons and tons of women who have favorite teams and even play sports.

 

Plus, I know a lot of men who are shoppers. My H is more of a shopper than me, and he buys me most of my clothes.

 

Being friends is about enjoying this person's company. I've had male friends since middle school. My teenage daughter has male friends. Those boys are smart boys, socially. By being friends with her, they get all her tips and advice and set ups with her friends, plus they just get to practice relating to girls.

 

But that is another thing commonly heard with guys who struggle with dating: they don't enjoy spending time with women. Well, that's going to be a problem with dating, yes. Women like men who actually like women.

 

Ha. No kidding. We went to SEVEN stores to find an ideal pair of shoes ...... For my HUSBAND. It was total drugery.

 

I haven't bought a pair of shoes in five years. The tops of my shoes tore this winter and the tongue is sticking out through one of the tears.

 

My husband has been bugging me to buy another pair of shoes. Show shopping is one of my LEAST favorite things in the world. EVER. I am not looking forward to it.

[Wave Rider]

It looks like this thread got derailed into talking about friendship. I have some questions about that too, on a few topics about friendship, so I'll post about that in new threads, and I'll respond to some of the comments made here about friendship. I feel like I got my answer, at least for now, about feeling lied to by Disney and chick flicks. We all grow up with myths and stories; some of these are religious myths, some are cultural myths. At various points, people go through some kind of crisis of faith about these myths, where they realize that these myths were wrong and they form a more accurate worldview. Some people never have the necessary crises of faith. I guess this is my crisis of faith about these myths and stories about relationships. And so it makes sense to me that I'm in the process of demythologizing.

[Imajerk17]

I'm not sure I agree w all of that Wave Rider. This is what I think it comes down to instead:

 

It is up to us as adolescents (and onto and through adulthood) to stop believing everything we were told by others. We start accepting by 13 or so that not everything we were told as children (or are going to hear) is true. And we start learning about the ways of the world by observing things for ourselves. We start figuring out the good advice from the bad.

 

A life-long process to be sure, but it strikes me (and others) as bizarre that you've only now just started questioning what you were taught as a child. It strikes me as doubly naive for you to feel let down, at your age, that you weren't taught the truth about love from Disney (or other media conglomerates, whose mission is entertainment and profit and NOT to teach you the ways of the world).

 

This whole thread just reads to me kind of like a 27-year-old male upset and disillusioned because he just found out there's no Santa Clause.

Edited June 18, 2016 by Imajerk17

[elaine567]

I think everyone is different and whilst some become woken up to "reality" as soon as life with all its cruel quirks kicks in, others can lead pretty sheltered existences.

They get the good grades, they go off to university, they get a good job, they marry the love of their life, they buy the house with the picket fence, they have the three lovely bright children, they have caring lovely similarly minded friends and life is great.

Why would they face disillusionment? Disillusionment may only kick in when they face some family tragedy, or they lose their job, or they have health issues.

So whilst for some, they may realise at 13, life is no bowl of cherries, it may be decades later before that fact hits others.

[Jabron1]

Can women not understand that men sometimes only want the company of other men to hang out with? Or is that being attacked now as "too exclusive"?

 

I have to laugh on these forums. There is a real effort to tell men how to be men, or shame them otherwise. Then you get a thread like this:

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/mind-body-soul/gender-sexual-identity/583431-do-men-lack-relevant-identity-modern-world

 

"Do men lack an identity in our modern world?"

 

Well, apparently our identity is defined for us by women. And none of you have picked up on the irony of doing this on a thread about a disillusioned guy feeling lied to.

 

smh.

[xxoo]

Can women not understand that men sometimes only want the company of other men to hang out with? Or is that being attacked now as "too exclusive"?

 

 

Sure, women feel the same way sometimes, wanting to be with just women on occasion.

 

I didn't notice anyone criticizing that

[Jabron1]

Sure, women feel the same way sometimes, wanting to be with just women on occasion.

 

Ah, so as long as it's just on occasion, then it's acceptable to your feminism.

 

How many token women friends should a guy have to fall on your good side?

 

Wouldn't want to be X, Y, and Z! (enter shames here lol).

[Aniela]

Ah, so as long as it's just on occasion, then it's acceptable to your feminism.

 

How many token women friends should a guy have to fall on your good side?

 

Wouldn't want to be X, Y, and Z! (enter shames here lol).

 

She said that she didn't see anyone criticizing men on their spending time with other men. You cut that bit out, and continued your rant on feminism.

 

Do you have any female friends? Real friends, that you just relate to as human beings?

[xxoo]

Ah, so as long as it's just on occasion, then it's acceptable to your feminism.

 

How many token women friends should a guy have to fall on your good side?

 

Wouldn't want to be X, Y, and Z! (enter shames here lol).

 

Token? I don't understand your post.

 

Women like men who like women. Genuinely like women. Have woman friends throughout lifetime, possibly partners of guy friends. Enjoy spending time with women for purposes other than sex. It doesn't have to be 100% of the time, but it has to genuine.

[Jabron1]

She said that she didn't see anyone criticizing men on their spending time with other men. You cut that bit out, and continued your rant on feminism.

 

And you seemed to have missed the pages of garbage leading to my post.

 

Am I wrong? If you aren't a feminist xxoo, then I speak out of turn

 

Literally never heard guys talking about how women should have male friends like this before. That's because guys generally don't give a toss.

 

Do you have any female friends? Real friends, that you just relate to as human beings?

 

"Relate as human beings". How the hell else am I supposed to relate?

 

Yeah, I have family and work colleagues.

 

I also have 24 hours in a day, and 7 days in a week.

 

I date women. That can take a lot of time.

 

I like having time to myself.

 

And then I like to hang around with mates for male company.

 

Not that any of this is any of your business.

 

I would ask whether you had any male friends, but I don't care.

[Wave Rider]

I think everyone is different and whilst some become woken up to "reality" as soon as life with all its cruel quirks kicks in, others can lead pretty sheltered existences.

They get the good grades, they go off to university, they get a good job, they marry the love of their life, they buy the house with the picket fence, they have the three lovely bright children, they have caring lovely similarly minded friends and life is great.

Why would they face disillusionment? Disillusionment may only kick in when they face some family tragedy, or they lose their job, or they have health issues.

So whilst for some, they may realise at 13, life is no bowl of cherries, it may be decades later before that fact hits others.

 

I agree that it often takes a personal crisis for someone to examine their worldview. For most people, if their life is going along as planned and they're getting the things that they want, they don't have much motivation to doubt their worldview. It often takes a significant rude awakening for someone to be willing to examine their fundamental beliefs about life.

 

The thing is, I do know some people who seem to have the fairy tale life. They got married young to an attractive person, they have a good job (or their spouse has a good job), they have children, they have money, they have good health, they're still quite in love with their spouse, and they seem pleased with their lives overall. At this point I'm coming to the conclusion that, more than anything else, these people were simply lucky. Sure they worked hard, but they didn't work any harder than a whole lot of people who didn't get the white picket fence life. Sure there were rough times in their marriage, but I doubt it's rougher than getting dumped and coming home to an empty bedroom. And I know that their lives aren't exactly like the Disney fairy tales, and I know that they have problems that they work on. But by and large, they were lucky enough to be living the white picket fence fairy tale, and I think that for the most part, that's what they were: lucky.

[Aniela]

And you seemed to have missed the pages of garbage leading to my post.

 

Am I wrong? If you aren't a feminist xxoo, then I speak out of turn

 

Literally never heard guys talking about how women should have male friends like this before. That's because guys generally don't give a toss.

 

I read it, and it wasn't garbage. Unfortunately, it's men with attitudes like yours, who helped me get to the point where I needed to be reminded that there were decent men in the world.

 

 

"Relate as human beings". How the hell else am I supposed to relate?

 

As opposed to only seeing women as something to "bang".

 

I'm glad you're finding this funny; I'm amused, too, since you are determined to ignore the obvious intentions behind these posts, and turn it into another gender war.

 

 

Yeah, I have family and work colleagues.

 

I also have 24 hours in a day, and 7 days in a week.

 

I date women. That can take a lot of time.

 

I like having time to myself.

 

And then I like to hang around with mates for male company.

 

Not that any of this is any of your business.

 

I would ask whether you had any male friends, but I don't care.

 

Of course you don't.

[xxoo]

It's quite easy to relate to the opposite gender. If your buddy has a girlfriend or wife, that's super easy. Mixed gender groups of friends are the norm in my world.

 

Now, if you have few to no male friends, that'll obviously make it much harder. And that was the point i was making. If you struggle to make friends with people, that'll be crippling in the dating world. The social gap widens and basic understanding of relationships is missing.

[Palmeiras]

But by and large, they were lucky enough to be living the white picket fence fairy tale, and I think that for the most part, that's what they were: lucky.

 

"Lucky"? Mate...

 

You've almost got it, but you are assuming that good luck results in the white-picket-fence life. I consider such a life unlucky.

 

For those with a modicum of privilege and some decent genetics (pretty common in most OECD countries), the life you describe is attainable through very little sacrifice and almost no independent thinking. And that does not make the world a better place.

 

Following instructions, keeping your nose relatively clean, and settling down takes almost no effort if you begin with a societal head start. You accordingly end up knowing almost nothing truly meaningful, and that is a curse unto itself.

 

Walking your own path and not resting until you've done the most you can to self-actualize and make the world better for people in general takes every waking moment of your life.

 

No one doing the latter would ever want a white picket fence, nor would they consider having one a stroke of luck.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Palmeiras

[Wave Rider]

"Lucky"? Mate...

 

You've almost got it, but you are assuming that good luck results in the white-picket-fence life. I consider such a life unlucky.

 

For those with a modicum of privilege and some decent genetics (pretty common in most OECD countries), the life you describe is attainable through very little sacrifice and almost no independent thinking. And that does not make the world a better place.

 

Following instructions, keeping your nose relatively clean, and settling down takes almost no effort if you begin with a societal head start. You accordingly end up knowing almost nothing truly meaningful, and that is a curse unto itself.

 

Walking your own path and not resting until you've done the most you can to self-actualize and make the world better for people in general takes every waking moment of your life.

 

No one doing the latter would ever want a white picket fence, nor would they consider having one a stroke of "luck."

 

Maybe....I guess it depends on what a person wants. I wanted that white picket fence life, or I thought I did, thought I'm not sure why. I suppose that I never asked myself if that's what I really wanted.

 

I can at least say that people with the white picket fence life tend to be more emotionally balanced and stable, and seem to have fewer mental health problems, better emotional health, and better physical health. They seem more comfortable being supportive and caring, etc., and they seem more dependable and reliable. By contrast, adventure-seekers seem to be more flaky, less reliable, less empathetic, less supportive, and they seem to have more mental and emotional health problems.

 

So yeah, people who avoid settling down do tend to be deeper, if what you mean by "depth" is mental and emotional health problems.

 

It's true that I never asked myself if I wanted that life. I kind of assumed I did, because that's just what's expected, I feel like. Other ways of living seem somewhat immature and irresponsible.

[Palmeiras]

By contrast, adventure-seekers seem to be more flaky, less reliable, less empathetic, less supportive, and they seem to have more mental and emotional health problems.

 

So yeah, people who avoid settling down do tend to be deeper, if what you mean by "depth" is mental and emotional health problems.

 

If those are the conclusions that your perceptions and experiences have led you to, so be it. I wish you all the best in finding what you are looking for.

 

I am a pretty privileged member of my own culture, mostly through my own effort, and I have repudiated the white picket fence as an objective. And in fact, much of the strife I have observed amongst my colleagues and friends has been a function of the white picket fences they surround themselves with. Food for thought.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Palmeiras