It's all fun and games until someone gets eviscerated

[Girlfromcali]

I 100% agree with this. I do not sugar coat nor hand hold a person who is doing something wrong.

 

I see a lot of people posting threads asking for non-negative comments; to me those are the people who do not want to hear the truth.

 

There is a way that you can give advice without demeaning the poster but posters who are clearly doing something immorally wrong need to be told the truth even if the truth sounds a little harsh.

 

You give the best advice. I feel like you're my best friend who tells me the truth without sugar coating. Don't ever change!

 

Just your name "love is an action" brings wisdom to this place. I can just read that and already be better and wiser.

[elaine567]

iss

Why would you be interested in an OW that you thought was unlikeable? That's not fair and unkind to her. I'm sure that she thought that liked her or she would not have wanted to have an affair with you.

 

In the same way it is not sensible to choose Prince Charming or Cinderella as a FWB, the likelihood of developing feelings and seeing a future together is high.

Better to choose someone you do not really like, or someone with a "fatal flaw" so that when you do start to get feelings you can remind yourself of the things you do not like about them and thus you can keep things straightforward and "casual".

MM often do not want to leave their home, their wife, their kids, their friends, their community... they just want some "extra" and variety on the side. They are therefore not looking for Miss MarriageMaterial, they are looking for Miss NonMarriageMaterial to have an affair with.

[ShamanLover]

@Liam1 You say "Some times the REAL support comes from those who are willing to paint a true picture of a situation". My point there was, how can two such diametrically opposed opinions be painting a "true picture" of anything?

 

@Loveisanaction Are we really going to talk about morality here? Really? I know I made a mistake. One of the biggest of my life. That's why I'm here. That's why everyone is here.

[loveisanaction]

@Liam1 You say "Some times the REAL support comes from those who are willing to paint a true picture of a situation". My point there was, how can two such diametrically opposed opinions be painting a "true picture" of anything?

 

@Loveisanaction Are we really going to talk about morality here? Really? I know I made a mistake. One of the biggest of my life. That's why I'm here. That's why everyone is here.

 

ShamanLover (i say this kindly and gently lest you think i'm coming across as aggressive). My last post was a general statement, it wasn't specifically about you.

[ChickiePops]

@Liam1 You say "Some times the REAL support comes from those who are willing to paint a true picture of a situation". My point there was, how can two such diametrically opposed opinions be painting a "true picture" of anything?

 

@Loveisanaction Are we really going to talk about morality here? Really? I know I made a mistake. One of the biggest of my life. That's why I'm here. That's why everyone is here.

 

Nothing can paint a true picture of anything. None of us were there. None of us can read your mind or the MMs. Not even you know the full story. We can formulate opinions based on the information you choose to share, and not everyone will have the same opinion, hence the discussion part of this discussion forum.

 

Isn't that what you're seeking? Outside opinions and fresh perspectives on your situation?

 

Not everyone is going to tell you what you want to hear. Not everyone is going to agree with you or with each other. This is an open forum and the people here come from all walks of life - we've all had different life experiences. We all think differently and we all have different personalities.

 

Full disclosure, I was cheated on..and stalked, harassed, and threatened by the OW..and the ex boyfriend and I were not even married. But that doesn't mean I lump all OW in the same category. Affairs are cruel and you made a mistake, which you have acknowledged, but having an affair doesn't define you as a person. Your actions were wrong but it doesn't mean that you're inherently bad.

 

So as another poster said, take away the pieces of advice that are useful to you and leave the rest, but hopefully you're able to at least take all of the different opinions into consideration. I scanned back through the whole thread and I don't see anyone who's deliberately trying to be mean..I just see a lot of differing opinions.

[ShamanLover]

@Liam1 You say "Some times the REAL support comes from those who are willing to paint a true picture of a situation". My point there was, how can two such diametrically opposed opinions be painting a "true picture" of anything?

 

@Loveisanaction Are we really going to talk about morality here? Really? I know I made a mistake. One of the biggest of my life. That's why I'm here. That's why everyone is here.

 

@elaine567 Bang on. That was exactly what MM said was the mistake he made with me.

 

I asked him at one point, if a genie appeared and he could have one wish where we were concerned, what would it be... an emotional lobotomy so we could continue without attachment, guilt, etc.... magically making his wife amenable to an open arrangement so he could have his cake and eat it too... going back in time and... at that point he interjected animatedly and exclaimed, "THAT ONE!". He went on to say that he had spent countless sleepless nights trying to figure out why he had met me at this point in his life.

 

Loooong back story short, he had apparently entered into his relationship with his (eventual) wife on the heels of utter heartbreak at the hands of someone he had mindblowing sexual chemistry with, and he consciously chose someone that he had more interpersonal compatibility with, despite a lack of passion. When they started out, he told her he would never marry again (he had had a brief disastrous marriage as a very young man). Six years into their relationship, she gave him an ultimatum. Marry her or she would leave. He was so conflicted about his decision he had to enter IC, and eventually capitulated. It was less than two years later that he pursued me for an affair.

 

He said that he had assumed he could EITHER have an off the charts physical connection with someone OR all the other things that go into a successful relationship (compatible interests, goals, values, etc.), but that I had shown him that it was possible to “have it all” in a relationship. His biggest regret was that he had “settled” too soon. Ugh. Shoot me if my (future) husband ever describes our relationship that way.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that MM will be looking for another AP (if he hasn’t found one alreday), and that, for all the reasons outlined by Liam1, it will be someone he doesn’t see himself falling for. I don’t envy her...

[ShamanLover]

And I should add... I did exactly that, @Elaine567 and it completely backfired for me. It's almost like not seeing him as LTR material is what allowed me to let down my guard, and he slipped past my defenses. So there's no magic formula. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Affairs may work for some, but not for me. Never again.

[Liam1]

 

I asked him at one point, if a genie appeared and he could have one wish where we were concerned, what would it be... an emotional lobotomy so we could continue without attachment, guilt, etc.... magically making his wife amenable to an open arrangement so he could have his cake and eat it too... going back in time and... at that point he interjected animatedly and exclaimed, "THAT ONE!". He went on to say that he had spent countless sleepless nights trying to figure out why he had met me at this point in his life.

 

Loooong back story short, he had apparently entered into his relationship with his (eventual) wife on the heels of utter heartbreak at the hands of someone he had mindblowing sexual chemistry with, and he consciously chose someone that he had more interpersonal compatibility with, despite a lack of passion. When they started out, he told her he would never marry again (he had had a brief disastrous marriage as a very young man). Six years into their relationship, she gave him an ultimatum. Marry her or she would leave. He was so conflicted about his decision he had to enter IC, and eventually capitulated. It was less than two years later that he pursued me for an affair.

 

He said that he had assumed he could EITHER have an off the charts physical connection with someone OR all the other things that go into a successful relationship (compatible interests, goals, values, etc.), but that I had shown him that it was possible to “have it all” in a relationship. His biggest regret was that he had “settled” too soon. Ugh. Shoot me if my (future) husband ever describes our relationship that way.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that MM will be looking for another AP (if he hasn’t found one alreday), and that, for all the reasons outlined by Liam1, it will be someone he doesn’t see himself falling for. I don’t envy her...

 

This guy sounds very confused.

[Got it]

@Liam1 You say "Some times the REAL support comes from those who are willing to paint a true picture of a situation". My point there was, how can two such diametrically opposed opinions be painting a "true picture" of anything?

 

@Loveisanaction Are we really going to talk about morality here? Really? I know I made a mistake. One of the biggest of my life. That's why I'm here. That's why everyone is here.

 

Because they are only opinions, not facts. So both can be incorrect and correct. And since it really comes down the the person and how they feel/handle their own situation all bystander opinions is just noise in the wind.

 

I truly think some people are confused on what "tough love" actually is as well as truly knowing how to advice when they have zero reference to come from. To each their own but I am very happy I did not follow the doomsday speak during my affair. There were many ready to lambast me that it was all a lie, going to explode, he doesn't care, etc. Somehow being able to see through the very small window that was opened by posting they felt comfortable making sweeping predictions.

 

There is little that posting about is going to provide answers to. Most posting is really wanting to be heard and supported. Know that 100 people can give you their answer but only you know what your answer is actually going to be. (((((())))))

[WasOtherWoman]

@WasOtherWoman I find this so interesting! I have a very close friend who has a don't-ask-don't-tell arrangement with his wife. When I was in the thick of the affair and struggling to find my equilibrium, he was always trying to get me to see that I was the one in the power position, not MM. People always talk of the power dynamic swinging the other way in a SOW-MM relationship, but in retrospect I totally see where he (and you) are coming from. It really is about "what's in it for me?" as a single woman with lots of other prospects - why would I put myself in this position unless there is a significant upside for me? Now, what that "upside" is varies from individual to individual. In other cultures where being a mistress is more widespread and codified, it's often material gain (a nice apartment, clothes, jewels, being taken on vacation to beautiful places, money to get through school or the like...). For me, it was about sexual adventure and exploration and, at the beginning, he was very good about indulging that (making audio recordings, videos, playing out fantasy scenarios, etc.. he really did facilitate a complete sexual awakening for me.). But as feelings became involved, he became less interested in that and more interested in "conventional" play. One of our sexting games was a variant on "would you rather...?" and voyeurism, exhibitionism and inviting others to join in were common themes in our fantasy life. Towards the end I asked him over text if he would rather watch me (insert expletive of choice here) another man, or have me watch him with another woman. His response was that he didn't know what the hell was wrong with him, but that he couldn't answer that question with any conviction because he just wanted to be with ME so goddamned much right now. It was really interesting - as our sex started to feel more like "making love", it started to undermine all of the reasons we had entered the affair in the first place. Feelings change everything. And, I've said this before, but that seems to be the most confounding aspect of affairs... the (what would be considered to be in a normal relationship) "better" things get, the more it accelerates their demise.

 

I have always been of the opinion that the single person in the equation is in the power position. They have all the options in the world... the married person, not so much.

[ShamanLover]

This guy sounds very confused.

 

Right?

 

See now THAT helps me. Not because you are sugar coating or hand holding or telling me what I want to hear. It's just a reality check. It's not just me. I'm not crazy (well, I might be, but not in this particular instance ). I am confused because he is confusing. We all talk about how isolating affairs are, so this kind of perspective from an objective third party (I believe they call it consensual validation in the biz) is invaluable. So thank you.

[SomethingToSay]

The problem arises when you are projecting thoughts and feelings onto MM....or even taking thing MM is saying at face value.

 

 

Like a prior male poster said...sometimes MM just likes to say romantic things. Doesn't mean they are necessarily true or not.

 

 

Ultimately I think it helps OW to "believe" their MM very much wants to be with them, continue the affair, but just cant b/c he is falling in love with them.

 

 

So be it then. No one knows his mindset anymore than the next person.

 

 

At the end of the day, whether he is confused, and why and about what, or how he feels, etc really doesn't matter. He has made his choice to end the affair. He does not want to see you anymore, as painful as that is to hear. No one knows the reasons; speculating is futile and serves no purpose in terms of true growth or healing.

 

 

You are much better served pointing all this analysis and wondering on yourself and why you chose an affair dynamic. but you cannot have true growth until you have true honesty with yourself...and NOT sugarcoating things for yourself, or developing certain narratives to help you heal. True healing and growth comes with blunt honesty with yourself, not sugarcoating.

[Ellipsis]

@ShamanLover

 

This is my first ever post having lurked on LS for 2.5 years, so it's pretty surreal (and a bit scary) to be posting here feeling as though I know so many of the members already, but your story is so like mine, I could have written it myself, and I was compelled to sign up and post a message of solidarity.

 

I TOTALLY understand your confusion, pain and sadness. So alike are out situations I had to go over your posts for clues a few times just to double check that our xMMs aren't the same man!

 

I will post my story at some point perhaps, but just wanted to say you are not alone or mad (although if you are, let's share a room in the asylum as we would have much to talk about)! Rightly or wrongly, hearing your situation has given me so much comfort knowing that I'm not the only one whose relationship ended because love showed up. Thinking of you!

 

Elli x

[Ana-Iva]

I'll second Elli's sentiment.

 

ShamanLover - do not listen those "who are here to tell you the bitter truth". There are many truths out there and this is yours. I was until very recently someone who would never ever never get involved with someone who was with someone else, even a girlfriend. I never did. For 37 years.

And then he showed up. At first I resisted for months... Now in exactly the same situation as you and having same thoughts and feelings as you. Its ok - I'm just a human. Did everything right in my life, helped people, animals, sacrificed myself for others, was good friend, loyal girlfriend when in relationship, and all that. And then he showed up. I let go of my principle, being drawn to him was stronger even than my pigheaded intention to never do anything that is selfish and to always think of welfare of others.

 

I learned a lot from this experience, mostly that things are never black and white as I used to think about them.

Edited May 20, 2016 by Ana-Iva

[ShamanLover]

@ShamanLover

 

This is my first ever post having lurked on LS for 2.5 years, so it's pretty surreal (and a bit scary) to be posting here feeling as though I know so many of the members already, but your story is so like mine, I could have written it myself, and I was compelled to sign up and post a message of solidarity.

 

I TOTALLY understand your confusion, pain and sadness. So alike are out situations I had to go over your posts for clues a few times just to double check that our xMMs aren't the same man!

 

I will post my story at some point perhaps, but just wanted to say you are not alone or mad (although if you are, let's share a room in the asylum as we would have much to talk about)! Rightly or wrongly, hearing your situation has given me so much comfort knowing that I'm not the only one whose relationship ended because love showed up. Thinking of you!

 

Elli x

 

Oh, Elli, I can't tell you how moved I was by your note and the fact that you came out of "hiding" to post it, despite your anxiety about doing so. You brought tears to my eyes and I find myself at a bit of a loss for words (and that doesn't happen very often - you may have noticed? ). Thank you!

 

I can't tell you how sorry I am to know that you are in this hellish place, and if sharing my story here has helped diminish even a fraction of your suffering, then it will have been worth it. I do hope you too will share your story when you feel ready.

 

That's funny about the parallels between our stories - I wonder how many times it actually IS the same MM... maybe the long-time posters can tell us - has it ever happened?

 

Oh, and another connection... Ellipsis was my online dating profile name! Great minds (and broken - but soon to be mended, and stronger and wiser and with an even greater capacity to love than ever - hearts).

 

Sending a huge hug your way...

 

Shaman

[ShamanLover]

The problem arises when you are projecting thoughts and feelings onto MM....or even taking thing MM is saying at face value.

 

 

Like a prior male poster said...sometimes MM just likes to say romantic things. Doesn't mean they are necessarily true or not.

 

 

Ultimately I think it helps OW to "believe" their MM very much wants to be with them, continue the affair, but just cant b/c he is falling in love with them.

 

 

So be it then. No one knows his mindset anymore than the next person.

 

 

At the end of the day, whether he is confused, and why and about what, or how he feels, etc really doesn't matter. He has made his choice to end the affair. He does not want to see you anymore, as painful as that is to hear. No one knows the reasons; speculating is futile and serves no purpose in terms of true growth or healing.

 

 

You are much better served pointing all this analysis and wondering on yourself and why you chose an affair dynamic. but you cannot have true growth until you have true honesty with yourself...and NOT sugarcoating things for yourself, or developing certain narratives to help you heal. True healing and growth comes with blunt honesty with yourself, not sugarcoating.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with the last two paragraphs of this post, SomethingToSay, but just some feedback of my own... the preceding paragraphs dilute their impact and make your otherwise powerful message difficult to take at face value because the tone smacks of a hidden agenda/bias/skin in the game. As the forum guidelines say, this is "support and discussion for those who find themselves involved with a committed partner". Respectfully, do you mind sharing your status in that regard? I'm just curious what lens you are filtering this through.

Edited May 21, 2016 by ShamanLover

[ChickiePops]

Are you over analyzing the tone of every post that does not tell you that the poster think he loves you because you're afraid they're correct? Because that's how it's coming off..

 

You're hurting..I get it. And you're still in the throes of your feelings. But your extreme defensiveness is not helping your case here. I agree with the posters who are saying that he dumped you because you caught feelings..sorry.

 

I know it hurts, but what do you want with a cheating pig anyway?

[lilajane]

I agree wholeheartedly with the last two paragraphs of this post, SomethingToSay, but just some feedback of my own... the preceding paragraphs dilute their impact and make your otherwise powerful message difficult to take at face value because the tone smacks of a hidden agenda/bias/skin in the game. As the forum guidelines say, this is "support and discussion for those who find themselves involved with a committed partner". Respectfully, do you mind sharing your status in that regard? I'm just curious what lens you are filtering this through.

 

You will find a lot of hidden resentment in the "support" here. Or at least I do. I don't have much respect for marriage, his or mine (obviously lol). It's an outdated institution. I wish I knew at 19 what I know at 45. If you research it, you'll see that it started as a way to legally maintain property and wealth. And when life expectancy was 30 years of age, then "forever" was very possible. Now, especially without the culture of mistresses and courtesans of Europe, it's a sham. The statistics show this. It's an unrealistic ideal. But here, it's some eternal sacred pact. Even when it's disintegrated into a casual friendship and living arrangement. Then the advice is to leave. Like it's that simple. Nevermind your kids, social and economic issues. My husband is an ass, but I'm supposed to just walk away from my whole life because he is an idiot. I don't think so. He leaves me alone. I do whatever I want. So why go and alienate myself and be poor? Makes no sense. Oh, and then these do-gooders will say "Have an open marriage" like it's so easy and acceptable, the perfect solution.....yeah, whatever. It's an oxymoron. Or find someone else, like all potential partners are interchangeable. Um, ok. If it were only that easy...

 

But, to my point. The "support" here will boil down to telling your BS what you did, and never, ever doing it again, and joining the herd in condemning it. There will be lots of subtleties aimed to make you feel worse. I love my MM. I had no idea what I was getting into. I'm grateful for how he opened my eyes, woke me up and reminded me what true passion is. He's had to take breaks from me because our dates were so hot, he was no longer able to perform for his wife. I like her, we see her socially on occasion. They are his family and where he belongs and I'm really happy that he has a good, stable home life to belong to. There is no more passion in either of our marriages. I'm not willing to live a life without this kind of passion myself. I'm not religious. I don't believe in soul mates either. But the morals touted here are outdated. I trust my MM completely and am repeatedly told or read that I shouldn't.

 

I am ok with MM having a content family life. He is a devoted father. His wife has a serious illness. He and I have a very exciting secret life. It's no one else's business. This is MY life. I steer my own ship. I'm not willing to give up all adventures for some outdated social construct. And I'm not willing to be single right now either. I shouldn't have to be poor and alone and out of my own family. As a female, I was groomed from early childhood to be a bride and take care of some man. I didn't choose that. So to keep all the daggers flowing at individuals instead of the real (highly sexist) problems, is not very supportive or productive. I suspect this board is full of people who still miss or resent their AP or BS who have an axe to grind. I'm glad you asked for the "filter." It will tell you a lot. The people here who have been in the situation are worse than ex-smokers as far as their self-righteous advice. Not all, but the ones you are feeling the impact of right now.

 

I want to say that I am grateful for your post about the Shaman Lover. I'm going to order that book. My MM doesn't know that this is what he is, but I do. He is an amazing man. I know I get the best of him. I know he'd be a PITA to live with. We are struggling with our expectations right now because of a change in the situation that allowed us to see each other more regularly. I know he is getting increasingly attached to me and I know he takes breaks to limit that. It's not an act. If I run into him, I can see it in his eyes. There is no way he is faking this. So, I believe what you are saying, completely. I also understand the hurt you are feeling. 80% of the time, I am happy to wait for him and find it exciting to just know he is out there, on my side, and could be calling me at any point for a date. 10% of the time, I'm sexually frustrated. The other 10% of the time, when I haven't heard from him in a few weeks, I'm a lonely mess who experiences a hurt like I've never known before. Waiting for him while I'm in the hurt phase is one of the hardest things I've ever had to do.

 

Neither of us have had a connection like this before. But the posse here gets their jollies out of pressuring people to end it. All affairs are bad, ya know. The women are the only ones that fall in love. The MM are all complete ba$tard$, not to be trusted, always stringing you along (oh, please). I sense there is some resentment because of the lies they were told. I've considered leaving him because of how I can miss him so much, but I also have to understand that waiting to address these issues is part of what I signed up for. It's hard. But still worth it at this point. I'm glad you are calling people out on their attacks disguised as support BS.

[lemondrop21]

lilajane - I just wanted to say that your post was a very interesting and honest read. I don't know that I agree with 100% of it, but it offers a different perspective and I appreciate that. I've often thought that there are likely many, many more people in these sort of arrangements (both married, in an A) than we know, who carry on in the arrangement for some time because it's what works best for them. They're not on these message boards much because they're ok with what they have. At least for a time.

 

All sorts of factors drive people into affairs, ranging from "I'm in a terrible abusive marriage without the resources to get out and be on my own," to "I'm just bored." Everyone chooses for themselves where to draw the line between "okay, maybe even justified" and "not okay." There are many who like to pass the time telling others where they think that line should universally be drawn.

Edited May 21, 2016 by lemondrop21

[ShamanLover]

you will find a lot of hidden resentment in the "support" here. Or at least i do. I don't have much respect for marriage, his or mine (obviously lol). It's an outdated institution. I wish i knew at 19 what i know at 45. If you research it, you'll see that it started as a way to legally maintain property and wealth. And when life expectancy was 30 years of age, then "forever" was very possible. Now, especially without the culture of mistresses and courtesans of europe, it's a sham. The statistics show this. It's an unrealistic ideal. But here, it's some eternal sacred pact. Even when it's disintegrated into a casual friendship and living arrangement. Then the advice is to leave. Like it's that simple. Nevermind your kids, social and economic issues. My husband is an ass, but i'm supposed to just walk away from my whole life because he is an idiot. I don't think so. He leaves me alone. I do whatever i want. So why go and alienate myself and be poor? Makes no sense. Oh, and then these do-gooders will say "have an open marriage" like it's so easy and acceptable, the perfect solution.....yeah, whatever. It's an oxymoron. Or find someone else, like all potential partners are interchangeable. Um, ok. If it were only that easy...

 

But, to my point. The "support" here will boil down to telling your bs what you did, and never, ever doing it again, and joining the herd in condemning it. There will be lots of subtleties aimed to make you feel worse. I love my mm. I had no idea what i was getting into. I'm grateful for how he opened my eyes, woke me up and reminded me what true passion is. He's had to take breaks from me because our dates were so hot, he was no longer able to perform for his wife. I like her, we see her socially on occasion. They are his family and where he belongs and i'm really happy that he has a good, stable home life to belong to. There is no more passion in either of our marriages. I'm not willing to live a life without this kind of passion myself. I'm not religious. I don't believe in soul mates either. But the morals touted here are outdated. I trust my mm completely and am repeatedly told or read that i shouldn't.

 

I am ok with mm having a content family life. He is a devoted father. His wife has a serious illness. He and i have a very exciting secret life. It's no one else's business. This is my life. I steer my own ship. I'm not willing to give up all adventures for some outdated social construct. And i'm not willing to be single right now either. I shouldn't have to be poor and alone and out of my own family. As a female, i was groomed from early childhood to be a bride and take care of some man. I didn't choose that. So to keep all the daggers flowing at individuals instead of the real (highly sexist) problems, is not very supportive or productive. I suspect this board is full of people who still miss or resent their ap or bs who have an axe to grind. I'm glad you asked for the "filter." it will tell you a lot. The people here who have been in the situation are worse than ex-smokers as far as their self-righteous advice. Not all, but the ones you are feeling the impact of right now.

 

I want to say that i am grateful for your post about the shaman lover. I'm going to order that book. My mm doesn't know that this is what he is, but i do. He is an amazing man. I know i get the best of him. I know he'd be a pita to live with. We are struggling with our expectations right now because of a change in the situation that allowed us to see each other more regularly. I know he is getting increasingly attached to me and i know he takes breaks to limit that. It's not an act. If i run into him, i can see it in his eyes. There is no way he is faking this. So, i believe what you are saying, completely. I also understand the hurt you are feeling. 80% of the time, i am happy to wait for him and find it exciting to just know he is out there, on my side, and could be calling me at any point for a date. 10% of the time, i'm sexually frustrated. The other 10% of the time, when i haven't heard from him in a few weeks, i'm a lonely mess who experiences a hurt like i've never known before. Waiting for him while i'm in the hurt phase is one of the hardest things i've ever had to do.

 

Neither of us have had a connection like this before. But the posse here gets their jollies out of pressuring people to end it. All affairs are bad, ya know. The women are the only ones that fall in love. The mm are all complete ba$tard$, not to be trusted, always stringing you along (oh, please). I sense there is some resentment because of the lies they were told. I've considered leaving him because of how i can miss him so much, but i also have to understand that waiting to address these issues is part of what i signed up for. It's hard. But still worth it at this point. I'm glad you are calling people out on their attacks disguised as support bs.

 

Best. Post. Ever.

Edited May 21, 2016 by ShamanLover

[ShamanLover]

Well, this has been a most interesting experience, and not at all in the way/s I expected. As many of you know, I came here looking, perhaps naively, for support at one of the lowest times in my life, and indeed got a great deal of that, and to those of you who provided it, I am deeply grateful.

 

I also, for whatever reason, appear to have attracted more than my fair share of “tough love”, some well-intentioned, some not so much (I’ve seen this happen from time to time, in my lurking tenure on LS, and it’s fascinating to speculate on what characteristics - either of the poster or their story - seem to trigger one type of response vs another... but that’s (perhaps) another thread for another time…)

 

What I wanted to express today was gratitude for the nay sayers, because, even though it was painful to take in a lot of what came my way at such a vulnerable time, on top of everything else I am already processing, it ended up being the most valuable gift that I am taking away from my LS experience.

 

Much to my chagrin, and despite my most valiant attempts to the contrary, I DID let it get under my skin, and I DID rise to the bait, and, in the process of preparing a rebuttal, I wrote for hours and hours in “defence” of the sincerity of MM (which was, after all, the original theme and motivation for posting in the first place). And in that process, and in those pages (and pages), it resurrected hidden memories of countless instances (comments, actions, facial expressions, gestures, body language, written words) until it became so unmistakably clear to me that he was being genuine that I no longer needed anyone else’s validation.

 

My gut has never lied, and I had forsaken that - I had lost faith in my own inner wisdom and abdicated it to a group of strangers (many incredibly well-meaning and wise, but strangers nonetheless). There is no longer a shadow of a doubt in my mind that my MM did indeed love me (although we can get into a whole semantic thing about what “love” means to him, and to what extent he is truly capable of it). It may only happen in the minority of cases, but mine was one of them.

 

Of course at the end of the day, as I said in my OP, that doesn’t make a whit of difference in terms of making the healing process any easier, but at least I am no longer grinding an extra layer of masochistic salt into the wound and making it any harder either. So thanks to all of you for helping me, inadvertantly or otherwise, to relocate my true north

[ChickiePops]

You will find a lot of hidden resentment in the "support" here. Or at least I do. I don't have much respect for marriage, his or mine (obviously lol). It's an outdated institution. I wish I knew at 19 what I know at 45. If you research it, you'll see that it started as a way to legally maintain property and wealth. And when life expectancy was 30 years of age, then "forever" was very possible. Now, especially without the culture of mistresses and courtesans of Europe, it's a sham. The statistics show this. It's an unrealistic ideal. But here, it's some eternal sacred pact. Even when it's disintegrated into a casual friendship and living arrangement. Then the advice is to leave. Like it's that simple. Nevermind your kids, social and economic issues. My husband is an ass, but I'm supposed to just walk away from my whole life because he is an idiot. I don't think so. He leaves me alone. I do whatever I want. So why go and alienate myself and be poor? Makes no sense. Oh, and then these do-gooders will say "Have an open marriage" like it's so easy and acceptable, the perfect solution.....yeah, whatever. It's an oxymoron. Or find someone else, like all potential partners are interchangeable. Um, ok. If it were only that easy...

 

But, to my point. The "support" here will boil down to telling your BS what you did, and never, ever doing it again, and joining the herd in condemning it. There will be lots of subtleties aimed to make you feel worse. I love my MM. I had no idea what I was getting into. I'm grateful for how he opened my eyes, woke me up and reminded me what true passion is. He's had to take breaks from me because our dates were so hot, he was no longer able to perform for his wife. I like her, we see her socially on occasion. They are his family and where he belongs and I'm really happy that he has a good, stable home life to belong to. There is no more passion in either of our marriages. I'm not willing to live a life without this kind of passion myself. I'm not religious. I don't believe in soul mates either. But the morals touted here are outdated. I trust my MM completely and am repeatedly told or read that I shouldn't.

 

I am ok with MM having a content family life. He is a devoted father. His wife has a serious illness. He and I have a very exciting secret life. It's no one else's business. This is MY life. I steer my own ship. I'm not willing to give up all adventures for some outdated social construct. And I'm not willing to be single right now either. I shouldn't have to be poor and alone and out of my own family. As a female, I was groomed from early childhood to be a bride and take care of some man. I didn't choose that. So to keep all the daggers flowing at individuals instead of the real (highly sexist) problems, is not very supportive or productive. I suspect this board is full of people who still miss or resent their AP or BS who have an axe to grind. I'm glad you asked for the "filter." It will tell you a lot. The people here who have been in the situation are worse than ex-smokers as far as their self-righteous advice. Not all, but the ones you are feeling the impact of right now.

 

I want to say that I am grateful for your post about the Shaman Lover. I'm going to order that book. My MM doesn't know that this is what he is, but I do. He is an amazing man. I know I get the best of him. I know he'd be a PITA to live with. We are struggling with our expectations right now because of a change in the situation that allowed us to see each other more regularly. I know he is getting increasingly attached to me and I know he takes breaks to limit that. It's not an act. If I run into him, I can see it in his eyes. There is no way he is faking this. So, I believe what you are saying, completely. I also understand the hurt you are feeling. 80% of the time, I am happy to wait for him and find it exciting to just know he is out there, on my side, and could be calling me at any point for a date. 10% of the time, I'm sexually frustrated. The other 10% of the time, when I haven't heard from him in a few weeks, I'm a lonely mess who experiences a hurt like I've never known before. Waiting for him while I'm in the hurt phase is one of the hardest things I've ever had to do.

 

Neither of us have had a connection like this before. But the posse here gets their jollies out of pressuring people to end it. All affairs are bad, ya know. The women are the only ones that fall in love. The MM are all complete ba$tard$, not to be trusted, always stringing you along (oh, please). I sense there is some resentment because of the lies they were told. I've considered leaving him because of how I can miss him so much, but I also have to understand that waiting to address these issues is part of what I signed up for. It's hard. But still worth it at this point. I'm glad you are calling people out on their attacks disguised as support BS.

 

Marriage is an institution. It has no feelings. Who cares if you have no respect for marriage? What's awful about affairs is not the lack of respect for marriage, it's the lack of respect or regard for the HUMAN BEINGS in those marriages.

 

Would you walk up to a stranger in the street and beat the hell out of them for the sake of having some fun? Would you stand by and watch someone else do it? What if it was a child..would you stand there and smile watching someone beat a child? Children get hurt by affairs too.

 

If not, then why are you so smugly happy to be hurting people emotionally? What's the difference between hurting someone physically and hurting someone emotionally?

 

I had a crappy childhood too but it didn't turn me into someone who needs to hurt others to get what I want.

[lilajane]

Marriage is an institution. It has no feelings. Who cares if you have no respect for marriage? What's awful about affairs is not the lack of respect for marriage, it's the lack of respect or regard for the HUMAN BEINGS in those marriages.

 

Would you walk up to a stranger in the street and beat the hell out of them for the sake of having some fun? Would you stand by and watch someone else do it? What if it was a child..would you stand there and smile watching someone beat a child? Children get hurt by affairs too.

 

If not, then why are you so smugly happy to be hurting people emotionally? What's the difference between hurting someone physically and hurting someone emotionally?

 

I had a crappy childhood too but it didn't turn me into someone who needs to hurt others to get what I want.

 

No one is hurt. Actually, we are happier in our family lives, more gracious and more accepting. MM tells his wife all the time that it's fine that she can't be intimate with him anymore and he means it. We are less stressed and more patient with our children. His wife is confined to a bed most days. My husband could give two ****s where I go. Our teens are happy when we are gone. Is it THAT hard to believe that this could actually be having a POSITIVE impact on everyone involved? They are never going to know. No hurt. Just stop with the cliches. Not everyone buys into the impossible sacred marriage theme. If my husband is out there messing around, I don't want to know about it. Good for him. Wtf cares?

 

My childhood wasn't crappy. Not at all. damn.

[gettingstronger]

Of course at the end of the day, as I said in my OP, that doesn’t make a whit of difference in terms of making the healing process any easier, but at least I am no longer grinding an extra layer of masochistic salt into the wound and making it any harder either. So thanks to all of you for helping me, inadvertantly or otherwise, to relocate my true north

 

 

 

THIS is the first step in healing I think- I am a BS and fully admit to getting way caught up in the details of "did he love me at the time", "how could he.." but in the end, when I decided the details did not matter, what matters is that it happened and how am I going to process it from here-my path became more clear... not going to lie and say those things don't crop up from time to time in my thought pattern, but they are no longer the driving thoughts in my mind-

 

I liken recovery to a ball of string- you have to unravel and untangle it a bit at a time- yep, the part you untangled may get tangled again, but usually not as bad as the first time-

 

Try to focus on the end of the ball- recovery- each knot along the way is important, but not the end-

 

Good luck-

[loveisanaction]

You give the best advice. I feel like you're my best friend who tells me the truth without sugar coating. Don't ever change!

 

Just your name "love is an action" brings wisdom to this place. I can just read that and already be better and wiser.

 

Thanks Girlfromcali,

 

I do believe love is an action,anybody can say 'I love you'....i say...prove it.

 

Honestly, i advice based on what i would want to see if the betrayed wife were me. If i were a betrayed wife whose husband was cheating on her and i came to this section of the board and read women advising the other woman to walk away from a married man, it would give me a sense of mental stability.

 

If the tables were turned and one of these other women were having an affair with one of our husbands, wouldn't you want to see people advice the other to woman walk away and leave the married man alone? Is it because the husband is not married to any one of us that we feel it's okay to sugar coat or hand hold a person who is having an affair?

 

I never wanted to share this story, i wanted to never think about it again for the rest of my life but i will..maybe it will help somebody.

 

My best friend was in the hospital for 3 months. She was the other woman to a married man for 3 years. The married man's wife stalked my best friend and one evening followed her home, she attacked my best friend with a butcher knife which caused her to be in the hospital for 3 months. When my best friend had told me she was having an affair with a married man i asked her to walk away, when she didn't we got into a big fight and our friendship ended...10 years of friendship down the drain. We were still on non-speaking terms when i visited her in the hospital every weekend. This was a year ago. Today she is out of the hospital with 4 ugly scars on her face (my best friend looks like Aishwarya Rai..well she used to). We are best friends again. Everyday i see the pain in her eyes, she apologizes with them all the time and it breaks my heart.

 

The betrayed wife got off on a misdemeanor with clinical counselling, she had just had a miscarriage when she attacked my best friend; her lawyer got her off on postnatal depression.

 

So, yes...i am a little harsh when it comes to people in affairs, i've seen the damage they can do. We always see the sexual connection...the sparks....the soulmate....the chemistry....the i've never met anyone like this in my life part of an affair but there are ugly sides to them. We never think that any harm can come to us because of an affair. That's understandable because my best friend didn't either.