Rape by deception, real or not?

[spiderowl]

I wholeheartedly agree. Why should someone be able to deceive someone like this and get away with it. If you have a strong moral sense that cheating is wrong and then someone lies to you or lies by omission about being married, they are despicable. I think there has been no legal recourse for many things like this because basically is it mainly men committing this kind of deception. If it were mostly women, there would be hell to pay.

 

I think anyone deceiving others into sex on the basis that they are single when they are not, should face some kind of penalty. If you want to seduce someone, then be honest with them, don't lie if you are already in a relationship.

Edited May 29, 2016 by spiderowl

[katiegrl]

I wholeheartedly agree. Why should someone be able to deceive someone like this and get away with it. If you have a strong moral sense that cheating is wrong and then someone lies to you or lies by omission about being married, they are despicable. I think there has been no legal recourse for many things like this because basically is it mainly men committing this kind of deception. If it were mostly women, there would be hell to pay.

 

I think anyone deceiving others into sex on the basis that they are single when they are not, should face some kind of penalty. If you want to seduce someone, then be honest with them, don't lie if you are already in a relationship.

 

I do NOT disagree, but with respect to the law, it could be argued that the deceived person should have taken a more aggressive approach in finding out that he was, in fact, single. Before having sex!

 

There are background checks, etc not to mention just paying attention to his words and actions, making sure they jive, taking off blinders as so many of wear, and basically not allowing yourself to be deceived.

 

Google "alienation of affection" I discussed in previous post.

 

A woman sued her husband's mistress and was awarded 9 million.

 

Why HE wasn't part of the lawsuit boggles my mind.

[thefooloftheyear]

I wholeheartedly agree. Why should someone be able to deceive someone like this and get away with it. If you have a strong moral sense that cheating is wrong and then someone lies to you or lies by omission about being married, they are despicable. I think there has been no legal recourse for many things like this because basically is it mainly men committing this kind of deception. If it were mostly women, there would be hell to pay.

 

I think anyone deceiving others into sex on the basis that they are single when they are not, should face some kind of penalty. If you want to seduce someone, then be honest with them, don't lie if you are already in a relationship.

 

Would you say the same thing if a guy met a nice slender woman on OLD, she pursues him.....She never tells him anything of her lifelong struggle with food and obesity....He marries her.....then she puts on 70 lbs in the first year of marriage...

 

Can that guy now sue for deception?? I mean she is guilty of lying by omission. no? I mean, its probably a sure thing that he would have never dated her if he met her at her heavier weight....Like you say, if you want to seduce someone, then be honest with them, no??

 

just sayin'

 

TFY

[stillafool]

OP, are you saying you were forced to have sex with this guy against your will? Are you saying you did not want him sexually and he took it?

[Jersey born raised]

Just to many gray areas to write a law. As difficult as proving rape is how much harder will it be to prove something like what is being proposed?

 

I get the the pain. I do. The people who do this are should just be flushed from the human race sent to a modern version of devils Island. But it just will not work.

 

As for myself, I don't forget and have no problem making sure those who come into contact with these prople are forewarned.

[katiegrl]

Would you say the same thing if a guy met a nice slender woman on OLD, she pursues him.....She never tells him anything of her lifelong struggle with food and obesity....He marries her.....then she puts on 70 lbs in the first year of marriage...

 

Can that guy now sue for deception?? I mean she is guilty of lying by omission. no? I mean, its probably a sure thing that he would have never dated her if he met her at her heavier weight....Like you say, if you want to seduce someone, then be honest with them, no??

 

just sayin'

 

TFY

 

Yeah both men and women deceive each other in various ways.

 

For men, the golddigger who claims to have money of her own, so doesn't need his....

 

For women, the married man who claims to be single.

 

Etc etc etc.

 

Relationships are always a huge risk..... and IMO there are always clues as to what is happening (red flags) which sadly often go ignored.

 

Resulting in the person eventually discovering they have been deceived.

[oldshirt]

It is called Rape by Deception, or Rape by Fraud.

 

Recently I fell victim to a man that I had been dating. The guy of my dreams turned out to be married. I wrote about it in another post. I did not know he was married and called it off when I discovered the truth.

 

I have been ruminating about it because I am still very angry, humiliated, and hurt. If you google "can I sue a cheating husband", you will discover that the search results will take you mostly to "how to sue your husband's lover" (in a few states, you can), but there is mostly no protection against victims of deception.

 

Again, I am referring to women AND men who thought they were dating someone single, and were lied to. I am not referring to people who made the choice of maintaining an affair willingly.

 

Nowadays one of the key points of rape is consent - this is why it is never a good idea to have "drunk sex", as consent cannot be given.

 

But what about deception? You consent was based on false information. If you had known that person was married, you wouldn't have consented to having intercourse. In that regard, is that rape?

 

The law in my state does not cover this point, and honestly I do not have the financial resources to pursue that route, but if I did, I would.

 

In New Jersey, Assemblyman Troy Singleton has introduced a bill covering this subject. Different states have different laws. I personally wish I lived in NJ and I hope the bill becomes law, because what happened is just terrible, and in a world of internet dating, cheaters, and liars, enough is enough.

 

Some people might strongly oppose the law (cheaters?). Remember when there couldn't be rape if two people were married (spousal rape)? A lot of people thought it wasn't rape. Or when violence had to be one of the key points of Rape (Roofie anyone?).

 

So yes, I'm all for that law. Victims have absolutely zero protection under the law at the moment. Time for a change.

 

 

 

I haven't read all the replies, but my response to this is that it is completely inappropriate to use the word "rape" in this.

 

 

This is not rape. This is forcing nonconsensual sexual contact.

 

 

If some guy tells you he is a millionaire or a Hollywood casting agent or a married man telling you he is single and you consensually drop your clothes and open legs, that is your own decision.

 

 

Yes, you may have had false information but the sexual contact was consensual and intentional. That is not rape.

 

 

It is incumbent on the individual to know who they are having sex with and what the status of the relationship is. That is what we call, "getting to know.." someone.

 

 

This so called "bill" and this whole discussion is in my opinion offensive and a slap in the face to real rape victims and people who have been brutalized and assaulted in a real rape.

 

 

Talking about people who had intentional, consensual sexual relations with someone who now want to cry rape when they discover that their sexual partner wasn't what they were cracked up to be is abhorrent.

 

 

If someone gets duped into dropping their britches because some slick talker said they were a millionaire or were single, that is their own damn fault and their own naivete'.

 

 

It is an offense to real rape victims to have some whiner crying rape after the hot studmuffin she just got done banging in bathroom bar stall turns out to have a wife.

 

 

This type of entitled whinerism and princess mentality degrades and erodes the seriousness of real rape.

[oldshirt]

I can recall my grandmother telling me that I shouldn't just jump into bed with someone and that I should date them and get to know them first. Yes, I definitely recall her saying that.

 

 

And I think she also told me that I should never just believe something that comes out of someone's mouth and that I should watch their actions instead.

 

 

And I really think that I have heard somewhere that men will say things that aren't necessarily true to get in women's pants and I have heard that women will say things that aren't necessarily true to get a home and security and financial resources.

 

 

I never heard of anyone referring to any of this as "rape" though.

 

 

If grandmothers are out there telling people to not believe everything they are told and if grandmothers are telling people to date people for a period of time and get to know them before having sex with them, that probably means that that is a smart thing for every individual to do and that probably shouldn't just jump into bed with whatever guy can tell a good story and then cry rape when that story starts to have some holes in it.

[oldshirt]

The real danger to this is if the legal system starts getting flooded with entitled princesses filing rape charges against frat boys who told them they don't have girlfriends on Saturday nights at the campus bar, then that is going to cause even more doubt and second guessing and victim blaming when real rape victims try to seek justice for real rapes.

[Woggle]

If we want to go by this logic shouldn't women who marry the settle guy knowing she doesn't love him only to break his heart down the road also face some kind of penalty? This kind of stuff tears guys into pieces and he wastes years of his life. I have been on dates with women I didn't know were taken and I even slept with one. When I found out I just cut them off and moved on instead of going to the courts.

[Gloria25]

Well, while "rape" is extreme, the OP might be on to something....

 

This woman sued the mistress under some "alienation of affection" law or something...and, the woman got away with it - even though husband was a regular cheater.

 

Wife Wins $9 Million From Husband's Alleged Mistress - ABC News

 

But yes, it's opening up a pandora's box and who can really prove these types of cases/accusations?

 

Look, I have an easier solution...don't get naked with someone without taking time to know them.

 

I have a gf of a gf who recently found out her "commitment phobe" guy had another gf the whole three years she was with him and that he recently proposed to that gf. Well, who's fault is that? In the three years with him, he'd disappear on her, would not make plans to advance the RL...it's not like there were red flags. Yes he lied, but at the same time he gave her enough red flags to dump him w/o finding out about his newly established fiance.

[JustGettingBy]

I wholeheartedly agree. Why should someone be able to deceive someone like this and get away with it. If you have a strong moral sense that cheating is wrong and then someone lies to you or lies by omission about being married, they are despicable. I think there has been no legal recourse for many things like this because basically is it mainly men committing this kind of deception. If it were mostly women, there would be hell to pay.

 

I think anyone deceiving others into sex on the basis that they are single when they are not, should face some kind of penalty. If you want to seduce someone, then be honest with them, don't lie if you are already in a relationship.

 

 

So "some kind of penalty" automatically equals rape charge?

[Art_Critic]

Well, while "rape" is extreme,

 

I think that is the big issue with me, rape can mean 20 years in jail and in the issue the thread is about it would amount to 20 years of jail and the rest of your life to register as a sex offender.

 

The punishment doesn't even come close to equaling the crime, excessive would be an understatement.

 

I think at the most if there was a loss, such as in the url you posted then suing in civil court..

 

But what loss is there for having consensual sex with someone and then later pulling consent because he was married and didn't tell you ? none.. you would lose your civil case in a heartbeat.

 

I think that is the other thing, the sex was consensual... can consent be pulled after the act.. it sure shouldn't be. In the case of drunken sex consent was never given since impairment never allowed it, in the deception the consent was given.

[jen1447]

I think if you reduce this to the basic elements it becomes quite clear. Rape is a violent crime. Even in cases of non-forcible rape like unconsciousness and so on, it's still a physical violation that's made possible by a lack of complicity in the act. In the case of mistaken identity or what have you, the act is plainly consensual, even if the pretenses were false. Happily bouncing away on top of somebody you had the wrong idea about isn't a violent crime, even if it may be kind of shameful. You thus can't transform a consensual act into a violent crime after the fact for convenience's sake.

 

To criminalize this sort of behavior would be to redefine rape at the core, which would pretty much render the whole thing meaningless in an "1+1=2, but not always" sort of way. The question isn't "how can we make this rape?" which is of course dishonest, but "is this rape?" Then you go from there - if it's not rape, you either drop it or explore the notion of it being some other form of criminal activity (tort included), but you don't try to force it into the rape box just bc you like the way it looks in there.

[oldshirt]

I wholeheartedly agree. Why should someone be able to deceive someone like this and get away with it. If you have a strong moral sense that cheating is wrong and then someone lies to you or lies by omission about being married, they are despicable. I think there has been no legal recourse for many things like this because basically is it mainly men committing this kind of deception. If it were mostly women, there would be hell to pay.

 

I think anyone deceiving others into sex on the basis that they are single when they are not, should face some kind of penalty. If you want to seduce someone, then be honest with them, don't lie if you are already in a relationship.

 

No one is ever "decieved into sex." People drop their drawers and spread their legs because they want to at that time. That is what consent is.

 

It's not the sex they are decieved about, it is the relationship that follows. That means that basically any relationship that fails or doesn't work out, or anyone that turns out not to be what someone originally thought they were, are not rape victims.

 

They are people who need to work on their mate selection skills.

 

Using the word 'rape' for this discussion at all is utterly rediculous and an offense to people who have experience actual sexual assault.

[Gloria25]

Ok, lemme break it down this way...

 

How can it be "consent" when you "consented" based on "deception"?

 

I mean, some guys have been prosecuted by having unprotected sex with women and giving them HIV. The guys tried to argue "consent", that she didn't want and/or care to use condoms. One poor woman, they both went to get tested and he didn't show her his results (I mean, he even tested knowing he already had HIV). He lied. So, what was she to do? Demand he show her the results and not "trust" him?

 

Relationships are supposed to be built on "trust", no? So, she consented to continue having sex with him, but her consent was made by deception.

 

Now yes, rape is not on the level of someone lying to you about HIV and/or anything about them. Rape is a horrible, forced crime of a physical nature and the results are damaging both physically and psychologically...and, IMO, the psychological damage can almost never be repaired.

 

Maybe, if claims like this actually ever went anywhere maybe they could be a civil issue? Courts and law enforcement don't have the resources to investigate and prosecute these things. Also, what can you argue the damages would be? Maybe the wife (as the wife in the "alienation of affection" case) would have a stronger claim against the WS who led on the OW.

 

But, whether or not you believe in and/or practice religion - that's sorta where things like religion and community come in. It's a sin to lie, cheat, etc. and people who have faith and/or are shamed by members in the community who share some sort of faith would be deterrent enough, no?

[Gloria25]

No one is ever "decieved into sex." People drop their drawers and spread their legs because they want to at that time. That is what consent is.

 

It's not the sex they are decieved about, it is the relationship that follows. That means that basically any relationship that fails or doesn't work out, or anyone that turns out not to be what someone originally thought they were, are not rape victims.

 

They are people who need to work on their mate selection skills.

 

Using the word 'rape' for this discussion at all is utterly rediculous and an offense to people who have experience actual sexual assault.

 

Oh come on, how many guys wanna argue that they're entitled to sex while dating you? That sex is part of any "healthy" relationship (even though you're 6 months in and still don't know what he wants with you and/or dating)?

 

That's why I'm a big fan of by date 3 and before sex happens that both parties have the "What do you want out of dating ("companionship" or "marriage")?" talk before it goes to a #4th date. But no, people think I'm too old fashioned, out of date, obsolete, and/or too harsh. They also throw around the word "love" barely a week or so into dating someone and then wanna argue how love is love and guess what? Say "love" and panties drop.

 

The only thing I strongly believe is that a person is responsible for their body. If you wanna be silly enough to think someone loves you in barely two weeks of dating you and that's enough to make your vagina wet, then don't be bad when you find out he never did. If you believe moving in/shacking-up with some guy is him loving you, and you're gonna keep on giving him sex, then don't be surprised when he cheats on you, moves out, and/or dumps you.

 

People say no sex before marriage is too rigid, well, then keep on going out there and let guys spin you tales, have all the sex you want, move in with/shack-up with him, and when the relationship "doesn't work out" and you find out the whole time he never wanted something serious with you, had a gf/wife/etc...then, don't get mad.

 

I believe that women, we have intuition, we are keen, we have a good instinct when stuff isn't right, but a lot of us plow through. We ignore the red flags and when the guy shows his true colors, we wanna blame the other woman, the stars, the moon, etc...so, I find it hard to believe that a lot of women were "deceived" - they just wanted to keep their head buried in the sand and pray they can mold him into what they want.

[BlueIris]

No one is ever "decieved into sex." People drop their drawers and spread their legs because they want to at that time. That is what consent is.

 

It's not the sex they are decieved about, it is the relationship that follows. That means that basically any relationship that fails or doesn't work out, or anyone that turns out not to be what someone originally thought they were, are not rape victims.

 

They are people who need to work on their mate selection skills.

 

Using the word 'rape' for this discussion at all is utterly rediculous and an offense to people who have experience actual sexual assault.

 

I disagree with that part, the bolded. Lying about existing facts to induce someone to have sex with you is the problem OP's talking about. She would not have consented had he told the truth.

 

There are situations where a woman can lie about existing facts to induce a guy to have sex with her that make men just as angry, such as lying about having an STD or lying about fertility or birth control. Oh, the howling and vitriol you hear from some guys about a woman getting pregnant. But he consented to have sex with her, so...

 

I think that reputation used to be the penalty. But today so many people date strangers that they have no background or social context for, there's a lot more room for lying. OP could out the guy as a cheater and liar, but there's a lot of social pressure to not do that either. Personally, I see nothing wrong with telling other people so that they know. It's true after all. He lied and induced.

[BlueIris]

Are you actually trying to compare someone waking up with an STD, or being duped into parenthood, to someone just lying about being married?

 

It is lying about an existing fact.

 

I understand that some people don’t see tricking or defrauding someone to get what you want from them, to get them to have sex, is a comparable violation, or a deeply damaging violation. But it is. It is a terrible violation.

 

The lying not only took sex by fraud but it denied another human being the right to live by their own values.

 

I doubt a law would change things because it will still come down to proof, but yes, it is the same- lying to get sex from them.

[SwordofFlame]

There are situations where a woman can lie about existing facts to induce a guy to have sex with her that make men just as angry, such as lying about having an STD or lying about fertility or birth control. Oh, the howling and vitriol you hear from some guys about a woman getting pregnant. But he consented to have sex with her, so...

 

Ok let's say she can sue him for being a fraud. But what exactly has she lost? In terms of lost, how is this any different than a single guy who sleeps with a woman and then ghosts her afterward?

[katiegrl]

Bottom line is while lying and deception are unethical and wrong it is not against the law.

 

I was thinking about coercion and thinking maybe she could get him for that, but I just researched coercion and it is not even close to that either.

 

There was no force, no intimidation ..... she willingly consented of her own free will...and most likely enjoyed it.

 

She got duped and sorry but people need to take some responsibility for what happens to them in their relationships.

 

Next time be more careful and get to know a man better before having sex.

 

Pay attention, I am sure there were signs ....... there always are.

 

Now if he had HIV and knew that before he had sex with her, and she contracted it, she could sue him for that.

 

To sue you need to show you have suffered damages.

 

But having sex because he lied?. What are her actual damages?

 

Hurt feelings? Humiliation?

 

Would never fly in a court if law.

 

And rape?

 

No way...

Edited May 30, 2016 by katiegrl

[BlueIris]

The consequences are the difference. Any adult should be able to move on from having sex with someone who lied to them, I know I have. One cannot so easily move on when it burns when they pee. Or when they are then forced to make child support payments for 18+ years. If you cannot see the difference in consequences, then I must only conclude that your bias is getting the better of you.

 

You're just arguing that what you value is more important than what she values- which is the essential problem.

 

Being violated is not something that "any adult should be able to move on" from.

 

I mean, I don't think that having a baby in your life is a negative at all. It's wonderful! Want to debate whose values are right? No. We don't try to force others to agree with our values. Which is the point.

 

Respect that other people have values that are different from yours and that telling other people that they "should" be able to get over being violated is not respect.

[Gloria25]

The consequences are the difference. Any adult should be able to move on from having sex with someone who lied to them, I know I have. One cannot so easily move on when it burns when they pee. Or when they are then forced to make child support payments for 18+ years. If you cannot see the difference in consequences, then I must only conclude that your bias is getting the better of you.

 

Well, the thing is that sex isn't so simple - especially when it comes to women. When we have sex, we bond with men. So, when we get dumped, tricked, etc., it takes a toll on us.

 

This guy on this religious program broke it down in the easiest way. When you have sex (especially for women) it's not just a physical act. There's an emotional attachment. So, while being deceived may not be as damaging/severe as rape, it still stings nonetheless. And no, women after going from guy to guy, to guy, it chips away at them - to their soul/core. So yea, some guy telling you tall tales to get you to drop panties isn't just a "hey, move on" type deal.

 

But I still believe that's why women should be more cautious before they decide to have sex with a guy and really, that's one reason why a lot of women don't give it up so early. Some guys wanna say she's playing games, etc...when all she's doing is trying to be sure of the guy she's about to mate with. I mean, when a woman has sex - no matter how much BC she uses, there's a probability that she may get preggo. That's why women subconsciously hold back, try to make sure they have (or "think" they have) a solid connection and/or "loooove" with the guy before they mate...cuz, biology tells her that if she "oops" and gets knocked up, at least she chose wisely.

 

Female birds? Male birds have to show they're worthy before they get nooky. They have to build a strong nest. She inspects the nest and if it passes inspection, he gets to mate with her. Why? Cuz yep, she's probably gonna need that nest to put those little birdies in

[katiegrl]

It is lying about an existing fact.

 

I understand that some people don’t see tricking or defrauding someone to get what you want from them, to get them to have sex, is a comparable violation, or a deeply damaging violation. But it is. It is a terrible violation.

 

The lying not only took sex by fraud but it denied another human being the right to live by their own values.

 

I doubt a law would change things because it will still come down to proof, but yes, it is the same- lying to get sex from them.

 

I just read this...and it is a good point....fraud.

 

It would be considered fraud I guess, but again what are her damages?

 

That is what it would come down too.

 

Did she have a mental breakdown after she found out for example?

 

Spent time in the hospital?

 

I dunno it is very ambiguous , but it still isn't rape, it's fraud.

[SwordofFlame]

I just read this...and it is a good point....fraud.

 

It would be considered fraud I guess, but again what are her damages?

 

That is what it would come down too.

 

Did she have a mental breakdown after she found out for example?

 

Spent time in the hospital?

 

I dunno it is very ambiguous , but it still isn't rape, it's fraud.

 

To me this is about as ludicrous as a man being able to sue a woman if he spends a ton of money on her while she knowingly leads him on knowing it's not going anywhere just because she wants the free stuff. Can you imagine the outcry if that were legal? At least in that case, you can come up with a firm dollar amount in damages. Bottom line, OP just needs to make better decisions and do your diligence.