Thoughts on Self-Esteem, Self-Worth, and Status

[Wave Rider]

I have long been confused about the term "self-esteem." I believe that some people confuse it with self-worth. I have a few things to say about it, and you can tell me if you agree.

 

I think that a person's self-esteem is their beliefs about where they belong in the social hierarchy. It's about what they believe their place is in the pecking order. It is necessarily comparative: self-esteem is the degree to which we believe that society values us more or less than it values other people.

 

In contrast, self-worth is the degree to which we value ourselves. Self-worth is a statement of intrinsic value. We have a high degree of self-worth if we like ourselves the way we are and we don't need anyone else to tell us that we're OK. Self-worth is not based on how much other people value us.

 

But self-esteem is different. Self-esteem is based on how much we believe other people value us. It necessarily involves other people, and it necessarily involves judgements of personal value. I realize that many people find this uncomfortable.

 

Self-esteem is directly linked to social status. A person's social status is the degree to which society values that person's attributes, skills, and assets. Having low self-esteem doesn't necessarily mean that you believe you are low-status; it means that you believe that you place in the social hierarchy is lower than would be determined by your attributes, skills, and assists. Narcissism is seeing oneself as higher status than one actually is.

 

Society allocates limited resources according to status: higher status people get more, lower status people get less. So your self-esteem, and thus your perceived social status, determines what you believe you deserve from society.

 

I say this because I think I have low self-esteem even though I actually have good self-worth. I value myself, but I am not sure that I believe that others see me as valuable. Does this make any sense? And do you agree with what I've said about self-esteem and self-worth?

[MsJayne]

Yeah, I agree. Our self-esteem is a reflection of how other people treat us, but it gets tangled up with self-perception, and vice-versa. If you have low self-esteem, you will attract unacceptable behaviour towards you simply because your demeanour sends out a message that you will put up with crap from people, and that starts a cycle where the low self esteem is reinforced by the way people treat us, and the way we accept that treatment reinforces their belief that we deserve it, (and ours!). Your self-perception is something that develops during late childhood and teen years, and how others treat us during those years has a huge impact on how we subconsciously see our selves. If treated badly during those years you will likely grow up with a poor self image, and consequently will most likely not strive for your full potential as a human being unless you have the intelligence to recognise and overcome the factors which stop you from self-actualising, and people who don't self-actualise, or who don't strive for the things which are usually attributed to 'winners', very often have a degree of dissatisfaction with life...........which perpetuates low self-esteem. It's a vicious cycle, but it's a cycle which can be stepped away from.

Edited June 2, 2016 by MsJayne

[Buddhist]

you can tell me if you agree.

 

I don't agree.

 

It's about what they believe their place is in the pecking order.

 

Dependant upon a belief that a pecking order exists, and that you place some kind of value in it.

 

Self-worth is not based on how much other people value us.

 

This I actually do agree with but not for the same reasons you do.

 

Self-esteem is directly linked to social status.

 

 

Society allocates limited resources according to status:

 

This also requires a belief in poverty consciousness, fatalism and social constructs as being all powerful. Something I'm not presently subscribing to.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Buddhist

[Satu]

Self-esteem has nothing to do with other people.

 

Its about how you feel about yourself, regardless of other peoples opinions of you.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Satu

[Alamo657]

Self-esteem has nothing to do with other people.

 

Its about how you feel about yourself, regardless of other peoples opinions of you.

 

If you have low self esteem, people can reinforce it by encouraging you in that direction (by excluding you in social settings, or talking **** about you because you cant defend yourself). So id say the 2 are tied somewhat.

[basil67]

I Googled Self Esteem and consistently got posts about valuing one's self and achievements - nothing about social hierarchy or about how others value you. You may want to tell the interwebs that most of it's posts are wrong.

[Satu]

If you have low self esteem, people can reinforce it by encouraging you in that direction (by excluding you in social settings, or talking **** about you because you cant defend yourself). So id say the 2 are tied somewhat.

 

I agree that it could work that way.

 

But only if you're as robust as a glass shrimp.

[NTV]

I value myself, but I am not sure that I believe that others see me as valuable.

 

 

I think you're re-defining the words to try to explain this one sentence. I think this sentence is self explanatory.

 

 

So let me get to what I think is the center of the concern... why do you fear others won't see you as valuable?

 

 

Or really, I can break it down into a few other different questions:

Authority: does someone else have the authority to pass judgment on your value as a person?

 

 

Is there some specific action or set of actions that lead you to think they don't value you? If so, can you describe it?

 

 

Effect: what is the real world effect if someone else does think you're worthless? do birds stop chirping? gasoline stop working?

 

 

 

 

If this is (and I'm just throwing a dart here) a byproduct of a thought process that begins with 'no one likes me', then the best solution I have found for me is to fight that thought/feeling by citing evidence to myself like 'of course that's not true, my family/friend/etc love me'. And really, from what I've found, everyone goes through phases at least once in their life where they deal with that kinda thought.

Edited June 2, 2016 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Emilia]

Society allocates limited resources according to status: higher status people get more, lower status people get less. So your self-esteem, and thus your perceived social status, determines what you believe you deserve from society.

No, I don't believe society is built on a zero-sum game.

[GravityMan]

I agree that self-esteem and self-worth are two different things. It's good to have a healthy amount of both.

 

I have not noticed many people confusing the two terms though. I think that many people at least understand that they're not the same, even if some of them don't have a good understanding of their meanings.

 

I think a lot more people confuse self-esteem and confidence. The two terms are similar and share a close relationship, but they're not quite the same thing.

 

I disagree with your definition and interpretation of self-esteem, OP.

 

NONE of those terms have anything to do with "social status" or a so-called "social pecking order". All of them are targeted towards the self.

 

Secure people don't really give a crap about their social status. Who cares what some stranger thinks.

[jen1447]

Self-esteem has nothing to do with other people.

 

Its about how you feel about yourself, regardless of other peoples opinions of you.

 

Yes, it's esteem from and for the self. (Kind of self-explanatory by the words.) If it was otherwise it'd be called 'social esteem' or sth like that.

[dichotomy]

Maybe I tend to confuse Self Esteem with self respect. This tends to be internal looking - from my view point.

 

I view this differently then self-worth or value - which I tend to see as outward looking but still from my view point.

[Wave Rider]

There seems to be some disagreement on lexical semantics. The sense we have of our own intrinsic value to ourselves, independent of other's opinions, I have called self-worth. Our beliefs about the degree to which others value us, I have called self-esteem. If there are better words, I will use those, but I can't think of any right now.

 

So let me get to what I think is the center of the concern... why do you fear others won't see you as valuable?

 

Or really, I can break it down into a few other different questions:

Authority: does someone else have the authority to pass judgment on your value as a person?

 

Is there some specific action or set of actions that lead you to think they don't value you? If so, can you describe it?

 

Effect: what is the real world effect if someone else does think you're worthless? do birds stop chirping? gasoline stop working?

 

My OP came about because of a longstanding problem I've had with underachievement and self-sabotage, including in relationships. I've gone through much therapy on the topic, with limited success. I decided to post on it because yesterday in my lab I broke a very delicate apparatus I was building. I am rebuilding it, but I was a little surprised to find that there was a small part of me that happy and relieved that I broke the apparatus. I have had similar experiences with other failures, including in relationships. When I've gotten dumped, half of me was devastated that it didn't work out, and the other half was relieved and happy that it didn't work out.

 

I had a similar experience with learning to surf. When I would fall off my surfboard, I felt frustration for falling off, plus a little relief that I wasn't a good surfer yet.

 

I have come to consider this as being low self-esteem, in that being exceptionally good at my job, or being in a good relationship, or being too good of a surfer, will bring more status to me than I feel I deserve, or that I am comfortable with. Unconsciosly, I broke the apparatus because I didn't want the status of being esteemed by my colleagues as a good scientist. And I sabotaged my relationships - or pursued relationships that were doomed to failure - because I didn't want the status of being in a good relationship. Or because that higher status was inconsistent with my self-esteem.

 

This article sums up a little of what I'm talking about with self-esteem and status.

 

I don't know why I feel I deserve less status that would be given by my talents and attributes. The status we feel we deserve seems arbitrary, or somehow conferred in childhood. So when I talk about raising my self-esteem, I'm talking about adjusting the level of social status that I feel is appropriate for me based on what others value about me. Maybe that would help with the self-sabotage.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Wave Rider

[NTV]

There seems to be some disagreement on lexical semantics. The sense we have of our own intrinsic value to ourselves, independent of other's opinions, I have called self-worth. Our beliefs about the degree to which others value us, I have called self-esteem. If there are better words, I will use those, but I can't think of any right now.

 

 

 

My OP came about because of a longstanding problem I've had with underachievement and self-sabotage, including in relationships. I've gone through much therapy on the topic, with limited success. I decided to post on it because yesterday in my lab I broke a very delicate apparatus I was building. I am rebuilding it, but I was a little surprised to find that there was a small part of me that happy and relieved that I broke the apparatus. I have had similar experiences with other failures, including in relationships. When I've gotten dumped, half of me was devastated that it didn't work out, and the other half was relieved and happy that it didn't work out.

 

I had a similar experience with learning to surf. When I would fall off my surfboard, I felt frustration for falling off, plus a little relief that I wasn't a good surfer yet.

 

I have come to consider this as being low self-esteem, in that being exceptionally good at my job, or being in a good relationship, or being too good of a surfer, will bring more status to me than I feel I deserve, or that I am comfortable with. Unconsciosly, I broke the apparatus because I didn't want the status of being esteemed by my colleagues as a good scientist. And I sabotaged my relationships - or pursued relationships that were doomed to failure - because I didn't want the status of being in a good relationship. Or because that higher status was inconsistent with my self-esteem.

 

This article sums up a little of what I'm talking about with self-esteem and status.

 

I don't know why I feel I deserve less status that would be given by my talents and attributes. The status we feel we deserve seems arbitrary, or somehow conferred in childhood. So when I talk about raising my self-esteem, I'm talking about adjusting the level of social status that I feel is appropriate for me based on what others value about me. Maybe that would help with the self-sabotage.

 

Even though it felt more like a sales pitch for a book than a real analytical study result, I will use article as a reference point in my response:

 

 

Part one:

I can see how low self-esteem might be the cause of self-sabotaging behavior. I am a big believer that it is very rarely ONE thing that factors into behavior.

 

 

So in the example of your apparatus, even if creating the apparatus would bring greater status and sabotaging it would lower status, then you a prescribing status as the sole motivating factor for your action. I cannot fathom doing that solely to lower others expectations. I could see it as a reflection of others expectations as part of the reasoning, sure, but there would also be the factors of the quality of work in the project (i.e. not thinking it's good enough) or the time investment (i.e. it's sucking up too much of my free time or it's too easy) or the daisy chain of events (i.e. if I succeed here, they'll want my input on other projects and I don't want that / if I fail here maybe someone else will try to help and show me that I am accepted and they do care).

 

 

But those are just examples of goal-oriented factors influencing behavior. It just seems like it's common sense that there are a lot of factors that influence behavior such as race, gender, ethnicity, income level, upbringing, religious beliefs, etc.

 

 

Part two:

If there are other factors influencing your behavior, then identifying them is got to be part of your analysis, correct?

 

 

Part three:

You identified self-sabotaging behaviors as a method with which to control status to ensure it reflects where you perceive your own value to be. And you did that in a vacuum. So let's take it apart, and look at the pieces, if you don't mind:

 

 

3.a Your own value:

It's true that you determine your own value. And really, only in the extreme does it become apparent that this is any real dissonance between your value and your status. For example, someone who's status is low and is humble is acceptable, but someone who's status is high but is full of themselves is also acceptable (i.e. you think you're a movie star? I am a movie star). If the difference between exhibited behavior and status is reasonable, it is acceptable socially. For example, steven Colbert's good looking joke routine is acceptable.

 

 

 

 

3.b Tools with which to change:

As you say, you can lower your status through self-sabotage, or increase it via success or, really I guess lying about success if you wanted to.

 

 

Where you believe your status to be and where it truly is and where you would like it to be are three different individual things. But I would challenge you to determine why you are looking to connect them at all?

 

 

Why should your self value and status be connected? I am sure you can list 5 musical artists right now who's value to you is less than nothing. You might actually feel good if they stopped performing and retired. That shouldn't impact their own perceived self value anymore than their self value should impact your valuation of them.

 

 

3.c Hypothesis

I think, personally, is that if you chose as a goal to reduce your status, then likely you are attempting to reduce expectations in order to reduce potential for taking on responsibilities. This is just a hypothetical assertion on my part right now, but I believe that you should take some sort of test run for something that would require responsibility and not impact status. I.e. get a goldfish, commit to doing an intricate self-portrait that will get tossed when you're done, write a short story, etc. etc. If you're able to take on the additional non-status responsibility successfully, then you'd be able to eliminate this as a cause. If you take it on and find yourself shirking duties, then you've go the next layer of why this behavior exists---and then you could move on to what causes the responsibility avoidance behavior.

 

 

 

 

...And really, I feel like I'm taking this into the minutiae, and that you're likely over-analyzing, but I hope my opinion here helps you any one else reading.

[Wave Rider]

3.c Hypothesis

I think, personally, is that if you chose as a goal to reduce your status, then likely you are attempting to reduce expectations in order to reduce potential for taking on responsibilities. This is just a hypothetical assertion on my part right now, but I believe that you should take some sort of test run for something that would require responsibility and not impact status. I.e. get a goldfish, commit to doing an intricate self-portrait that will get tossed when you're done, write a short story, etc. etc. If you're able to take on the additional non-status responsibility successfully, then you'd be able to eliminate this as a cause. If you take it on and find yourself shirking duties, then you've go the next layer of why this behavior exists---and then you could move on to what causes the responsibility avoidance behavior.

 

Now this is an interesting idea. It could be true that I'm avoiding responsibility and commitment just as much as I'm avoiding status. Just to do the thought experiment, no, I don't want a goldfish because I don't want the responsibility. Well, it's it's not the responsibility that bothers me, it's the commitment. I'm a commitmentphobe, though I'm a passive commitmentphobe in relationships because I pursue unavailable people. The inverse experiment would be to somehow achieve status without responsibility and see if it bothered me. I'll tell you right now that it won't. So yes, it is the commitment that bothers me most.

[Eternal Sunshine]

This may be slightly off topic but....

I always felt this dissonance. I have felt different to others, to society expectaitons all my life; Yet I like my personality and traits that society values very little.

 

So you may say that I have "high self worth" but it means very little when it comes to perceptions of others. I have always had this pattern of not doing well with dating. Women are expected to be social, outgoing, flirty, but hang back when it comes to major decisions such as career, finances etc. I am the exact opposite. I am not a big talker, I hang back when it comes to organizing social events, mingling, making empty small talk. At the same time, I naturally take charge of making major decisons, the exact opposite of what's even to this day expected or valued in women. I have no maternal instinct and have never wanted children. I have no desire to keep the house clean or please a man.

 

So my qualities make me good at my career but leave me feeling somewhat lonely and socially isolated. Its not one person's opinion, those are the patterns that are obvious over time.

 

What's more, if someone told me that I could waive the magic wand and change myself into being someone that many men would desire, yet lose that qualities and achivments I have in other parts of my life, I would say no without even thinking. So it is possible to value yourself yet not be valued by others.

[Jabron1]

it is possible to value yourself yet not be valued by others.

 

Self-esteem is a very different thing than our value to others.

 

In dating (and lots of other things, our jobs for example) our worth to others is key.

 

Just because we value ourselves highly, doesn't mean that the sexual marketplace will. What we think is valuable may not be to someone else.

 

Just think of the amount of threads started by guys saying that "I've achieved x, y, and z. Why aren't I a mack daddy yet?". Well, it's because these things aren't valued much anymore - that's why.

[Wave Rider]

So you may say that I have "high self worth" but it means very little when it comes to perceptions of others.

 

Self-esteem is a very different thing than our value to others.

 

In dating (and lots of other things, our jobs for example) our worth to others is key.

 

Just because we value ourselves highly, doesn't mean that the sexual marketplace will. What we think is valuable may not be to someone else.

 

Just think of the amount of threads started by guys saying that "I've achieved x, y, and z. Why aren't I a mack daddy yet?". Well, it's because these things aren't valued much anymore - that's why.

 

This is part of the point I'm making about self-esteem. So much of the self-help advice I've read says that I need to learn to value myself just the way I am, and to not care what everyone else thinks of me. Well, society doesn't work that way. If want to have a job, if I want to have friends, and if I want to have a romantic partner, it does matter what other people think of me, and it does matter how much other people value me.

 

Some of the frustration I've developed has centered around the fact that other people don't value my talents as much as I do. I'm getting a PhD in physics, and I consider myself to be a pretty smart guy, but it's been discouraging to see that other people don't value that nearly as much as I do. It's been the same with surfing. I surf because I like surfing, but I've been discouraged to learn that what women really value in surfers is the surfer image, personality, and style,, not the athletic ability required to actually surf. What matters to women is that I looked good while I was out on the water, not that I displayed good athletic technique.

 

Something that I've seen in women is that they get frustrated because men value them for things other than the things for which they want to be valued. Men usually like women if they are beautiful and intelligent, but women object to this, instead wanting men to value them for their talents and hobbies. One of my girlfriends said, "I know I'm pretty and I know I'm smart, but I want a man to like me for the other things about me."

 

It's probably true that the women that have liked me, have liked me for reasons other than the reasons I thought or wanted. I wanted women to like me because I'm smart and athletic, but maybe they liked me because they thought I was tall-ish or good looking or I reminded them of someone important to them.

 

So I feel like I need to get a better idea of what people really value in me if I want to have accurate self-esteem.

[GorillaTheater]

I'm getting a PhD in physics, and I consider myself to be a pretty smart guy, but it's been discouraging to see that other people don't value that nearly as much as I do.

 

 

Welcome to real life. You want people devaluing your accomplishments? Try being a lawyer. Few people have any use for us, until they actually have use for us. That's where your self-value comes in, as opposed to the value placed on you by others.

[NTV]

 

So I feel like I need to get a better idea of what people really value in me if I want to have accurate self-esteem.

 

Dude! That's like almost the inverse of what logically needs to happen. You value yourself first, and then let other folks dance around and like you for random crap that doesn't mean too much.

 

 

Example: I value my sense of humor. Are there plenty of folks that'll tell me I'm not funny? oh yeah there are. also completely irrelevant. I'm not going to consider myself not funny just cause they don't. they can either like it or not---I ultimately have no control. heck, they could be offended by one of my jokes. not my problem.

 

 

maybe you're afraid of being like the guy from that Offspring song? 'he's trying to hard, and he's not quite hip, but in his own mind..."

 

 

Not gonna happen as long as your own eyes are open. Only if you close your eyes to the world around you do you end up like that.

[Wave Rider]

Welcome to real life. You want people devaluing your accomplishments? Try being a lawyer. Few people have any use for us, until they actually have use for us. That's where your self-value comes in, as opposed to the value placed on you by others.

 

I dunno...In spite of all the lawyer jokes, I feel like lawyers are higher status in society than scientists. Every parent wants their daughter to grow up and marry a doctor or lawyer (and lawyers make more money than scientists), but no one tells their daughters to marry scientists when they grow up. And when I see the grad student women talking to the law school student men, it seems like the women really get the tingles for these men, but when a physics major man talks to one of these women, she says, "Wow, you must be really smart," but the woman has this look on her face like, "Dear god, not another one."

 

Even though everyone hates lawyers and most people in America hate the healthcare system, "lawyer" and "doctor" are still synonymous with wealth and high status. But even good scientists, on the other hand, are considered to be lower status for some arbitrary reason that I'm currently not aware of. Even if they earn a good income, scientists still carry the title of "nerd" which is low status. This is part of what I'm talking about when I talk about value and self-esteem. Even if I make good money at an important scientific or engineering job, I'll never enjoy the kind of social status that a doctor, or even a lawyer, will.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Wave Rider

[xxoo]

I dunno...In spite of all the lawyer jokes, I feel like lawyers are higher status in society than scientists. Every parent wants their daughter to grow up and marry a doctor or lawyer (and lawyers make more money than scientists), but no one tells their daughters to marry scientists when they grow up.

 

My daughter would laugh, because I tell her to pay attention to the science and math boys all the time! Her current boyfriend is a math boy, and believe me, she has her pick.

 

Why do you need all that social approval, anyway? Living an authentic life, and doing the work you love, should be its own reward.

[NTV]

Every parent wants their daughter to grow up and marry a doctor or lawyer (and lawyers make more money than scientists), but no one tells their daughters to marry scientists when they grow up.

 

 

Eh, I think that Tony Stark from the avengers movie is probably going to change a lot of that kinda social rhetoric. Plus engineers on average tend to make more than Dr's who pay malpractice insurance, and lawyers who have the upkeep charges of their paralegal staff place of business etc.

 

 

Physics majors? no clue. I'll tell you though that if you're in college you probably shouldn't be scouting to meet your wife just yet. after college dating is about as different from college dating as college dating is from high school dating. and once you graduate there's a good chance the type of woman that attracts you will be much different.

[Wave Rider]

Dude! That's like almost the inverse of what logically needs to happen. You value yourself first, and then let other folks dance around and like you for random crap that doesn't mean too much.

 

maybe you're afraid of being like the guy from that Offspring song? 'he's trying to hard, and he's not quite hip, but in his own mind..."

 

This is what I mean by self-worth, my value of myself independent of other people's opinions.

 

And I thought you might be talking about Offspring's song

, but the lyrics you mentioned aren't in that song.

 

Why do you need all that social approval, anyway? Living an authentic life, and doing the work you love, should be its own reward.

 

There seems to be some need for balance here, because a purely authentic life is also a lonely life. For example, I had a pretty good group of friends here, but they all got into playing the board game Settlers of Catan, which is a game I don't like. They'd play it whenever they got together, and since I don't like the game, they stopped inviting me to their activities. I was able to be very authentic and true to myself by not playing a board game I didn't like, but my friends drifted away because of it, and now I don't get invited to activities much anymore. I guess that's the price I pay for authenticity.

 

This is something I've found to be generally true - the more I try to be purely authentic and do the things that I want to do on my terms, the more time I spend alone, doing stuff by myself.

 

That's really part of what I'm talking about in this thread. If I want friends, and if I want a romantic relationship, it does matter what other people think, and it does matter if other people value the things I am offering.

[xxoo]

There's a difference between seeking social approval of your choices and making compromises for the sake of people you care about. So sure, I'll engage in activities that aren't my first preference for the people I love, but that's about connection, not about social approval. I don't have to pretend it's my preference. I can just do it for them, if it harms me none. And the other side of the coin would be that they do some things for me. The joy there is the companionship, not necessarily the activity.

 

So my husband doesn't necessarily enjoy going for walks, but he goes with me because I love it and he loves being with me. And I don't really enjoy watching The Arrow and The Flash, but I do it because he loves it and I love being with him.