Thoughts on Self-Esteem, Self-Worth, and Status

[Taramere]

One of my girlfriends said, "I know I'm pretty and I know I'm smart, but I want a man to like me for the other things about me."

 

Yes. Sometimes it's hard to differentiate between a person having high self esteem and just being a high maintenance pain in the ass.

[NTV]

This is what I mean by self-worth, my value of myself independent of other people's opinions.

 

And I thought you might be talking about Offspring's song

, but the lyrics you mentioned aren't in that song.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, not that one, the other one; "pretty fly".

[Wave Rider]

Yes. Sometimes it's hard to differentiate between a person having high self esteem and just being a high maintenance pain in the ass.

 

Haha, yeah. I think this particular woman was a pain in the ass, but I've heard this kind of thing from other women. One woman recognized the hypocrisy of it, saying that women would put in the effort to look nice while simultaneously saying that they wanted a man to like them for their personality.

 

There's a difference between seeking social approval of your choices and making compromises for the sake of people you care about. So sure, I'll engage in activities that aren't my first preference for the people I love, but that's about connection, not about social approval. I don't have to pretend it's my preference. I can just do it for them, if it harms me none. And the other side of the coin would be that they do some things for me. The joy there is the companionship, not necessarily the activity.

 

I'm torn on this one. I have a history of being too compromising, of offering too much to someone who did nothing to earn it, and of making concessions while asking for nothing in return. I don't know what the right answer is on this, and I don't know how much to compromise before I'm giving too much, and I don't know how flexible and accommodating I can be before I commit the unpardonable sin of being "too needy." You may say that I should always be true to my authentic self, but that means that I won't play a stupid board game I don't like. And if I lose my friends over it, I guess that's OK because it's more important to not be "too needy."

 

As for my original questions about self-esteem, I'll have to think about it a little more. It seems to be tangled up with some other fears.

[NTV]

Just an after thought. .. have you read 'no more mr. Nice guy'?

[Wave Rider]

Just an after thought. .. have you read 'no more mr. Nice guy'?

 

Yes, I've read it. Well, I listened to it on audiobook. And I used to post on the forum for NMMNG when it was a cool forum, but they changed it and it kinda sucks now. I identified with some of the Nice Guy behaviors, but not all of them.

[Wave Rider]

I think that one of the most cherished beliefs in the self-help culture is that the way to happiness is to go on a journey to discover your "true authentic self," and once you have found this true self, to live as authentically to that true self as possible. The belief is that most of the problems we have - especially in relationships - are due to our failure to be loyal to this true self.

 

But here's what I'm coming to believe: no one has a stable, fixed, "true authentic self." People struggle with "finding themselves" because this true self is not there to be found.

 

This belief that we need to discover our true self is so fundament to our culture's worldview that most people don't question it. People say, "I need to find myself," but I don't think such a self really exists, and if it did, how would you know when you'd found it?

 

Let's say that you break up with someone, and when they ask why, you say, "It's not you, it's me. I need to go find myself." What, exactly, is this self that you are looking for? How do you know when you've found this self? Is there a point when you can say, "Ah-ha! There I am! That's me! That's the self that I was looking for!"? Can I point to this self somehow and say to other people, "See this right here? This is my self."? How can you measure the self? And even if you think you've found your true self, how do you know that you're not wrong, and how do you know that you won't find a truer self if you keep looking? The more I pick it apart, the less sense it makes that anyone has a true authentic self.

 

Also, we change. Two years ago, being a surfer was not part of my self, but it's definitely a part of my self now. And four years ago, being a Mormon was a central part of my self, but it's not part of my self anymore. So which is the true self for me: the surfer or the non-surfer? And which is the true self for me: the Mormon or the non-Mormon?

 

And we have parts of us that conflict and contradict each other. Sometimes I am calm and peaceful, sometimes I am agitated and angry. So which is the true self: the calm and peaceful Wave Rider, or the agitated and angry Wave Rider?

 

So I'm going to stop looking for this true self, because I don't think it exists. Instead, I'm going to try thinking of myself as a collection of habits. Habits can be physical, mental, or emotional. So when I have a problem in my life, I don't need a new identity, or a new sense of self-esteem, or a season of soul-searching. I need a new habit. And habits are much easier to deal with and measure than the slippery, elusive concepts of identity, self-esteem, and the true self. I'll give that a try.

[Ruby Slippers]

Very interesting thread, and I feel we're on a similar intellectual wavelength, Wave Rider I strongly relate to a lot of what you say here, and it's rare for me to find anyone who "gets me" on some of this.

 

I think that a person's self-esteem is their beliefs about where they belong in the social hierarchy. It's about what they believe their place is in the pecking order. It is necessarily comparative: self-esteem is the degree to which we believe that society values us more or less than it values other people.

 

In contrast, self-worth is the degree to which we value ourselves. Self-worth is a statement of intrinsic value. We have a high degree of self-worth if we like ourselves the way we are and we don't need anyone else to tell us that we're OK. Self-worth is not based on how much other people value us.

 

I say this because I think I have low self-esteem even though I actually have good self-worth.

Totally agree. I also have low-ish self-esteem but pretty high self-worth.

 

This may be slightly off topic but....

I always felt this dissonance. I have felt different to others, to society expectaitons all my life; Yet I like my personality and traits that society values very little.

Me, too. In school, my name was on the announcements every day for winning sports events, academic competitions, starring in the play, and so on. Starting at age 4, I scored in the top 1% on every intelligence test I took. But my dad is messed up and was abusive, neglectful. So I was pretty insecure and guarded, at the top of the pack but kind of on the fringe. And that's still true.

 

Some of the frustration I've developed has centered around the fact that other people don't value my talents as much as I do. I'm getting a PhD in physics, and I consider myself to be a pretty smart guy, but it's been discouraging to see that other people don't value that nearly as much as I do.

Totally relate. I've always clicked well with men who are scientists and techies. There's a certain level of thinking or kind of thinking that we can enjoy and share. I'm also very turned on by intelligence in itself.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Ruby Slippers

[Wave Rider]

Totally relate. I've always clicked well with men who are scientists and techies. There's a certain level of thinking or kind of thinking that we can enjoy and share. I'm also very turned on by intelligence in itself.

 

So are you a sapiosexual?

 

It's especially been frustrating with women, when I tell them I've worked at NASA and they responded with a flippant "Oh that's nice," and then I watch those women get turned on by some guy for no other reason than he was riding a motorcycle.

 

That's what I'm talking about with low-self esteem. Even though I see my work in science and engineering as valuable, I can clearly see that most other people don't value my work as much as I do, and instead they seem to put much more value on silly or even dangerous behavior. So with low self-esteem, I can see that other people don't value what I do, even if I value it. It's a little better now because I'm in a physics department where people value my skills, but if I leave my oasis of science, I experience a status drop.

[The_Dork_Lard]

You seem philosophical and deep thinking, and I'm sure that's a constant in your life. Many people would never even think to think that way, which makes you distinguishable from others. So this could be argued to be an aspect of your self, or a separate self, in addition to, say, an adventurer or a man of faith.

 

I've also had trouble with the abstract notion of 'finding my self'. But one plane of thinking I like to dwell on to help me with the concept of authenticity is this: we have multiple selves and they're context dependent.

 

I'm sure you, I, or anybody else could probably write down several ways of being a self. Me? I'm deeply introverted, but not always. So I have an introverted self, and a slightly more extroverted self, and I am able to switch at will. Also, I'm very compassionate, unless I feel a need to guard myself against a perceived danger - somebody asking to borrow an unusual amount of money for example. Then I can become utterly ruthless, and that's my merciless self. Both of these are selves I like to indulge in.

 

So here are 4 central identities, or 'selves', and they are context dependent.

 

Introvert

Extrovert

Compassionate man

Merciless man

 

There are more, but this is an example. They're irreconcilable too. How can a man refer to himself as compassionate and ruthless? Because I've been both at different times. So instead of letting this cause confusion as to my notion of my self, I allow them to form different aspects of my self by conceiving them as a collection of selves. One could argue we're all compassionate and ruthless, yet I'd disagree and claim some people are one or the other, or indeed none at all. It's about self reflection and seeing and understanding this aspect of our selves.

 

By this line of logic I also know what I am definitely not, and I know what I wouldn't do. I'm not an adventurer and neither am I a man of faith, for example - not in any way that I'd include it as an authentic self.

 

I think when people talk of finding one's self, they're referring to a concept that has oversimplistic assumptions about what that self is, as if we have a single, authentic and tappable element that remains constant from birth to death. I like to think we have multiple, authentic, and tappable elementS that are diffused, and constitute the greater self by the sum of their parts. This complete, whole sum is the true self, but takes decades to fully realise.

[SammySammy]

I hope my "true authentic self" is not stable and fixed. I hope that I am continually learning and growing throughout my life. I hope that I am able to live my life in a way the reflects what I believe to be true, honest and right at that time.

 

Changing over time only means that I'm human, not that my true self doesn't exist.

[Satu]

OP :

 

If you haven't read anything by PD Ouspensky, you should, because you sound like you're channeling him.

 

 

“Man is a machine, but a very peculiar machine. He is a machine which, in right circumstances, and with right treatment, can know that he is a machine, and having fully realized this, he may find the ways to cease to be a machine.

First of all, what man must know is that he is not one; he is many. He has not one permanent and unchangeable “I” or Ego. He is always different. One moment he is one, another moment he is another, the third moment he is a third, and so on, almost without end.”

 

― P.D. Ouspensky

[xxoo]

 

I'm torn on this one. I have a history of being too compromising, of offering too much to someone who did nothing to earn it, and of making concessions while asking for nothing in return. I don't know what the right answer is on this, and I don't know how much to compromise before I'm giving too much, and I don't know how flexible and accommodating I can be before I commit the unpardonable sin of being "too needy." You may say that I should always be true to my authentic self, but that means that I won't play a stupid board game I don't like. And if I lose my friends over it, I guess that's OK because it's more important to not be "too needy."

 

As for my original questions about self-esteem, I'll have to think about it a little more. It seems to be tangled up with some other fears.

 

One key factor is that relationships should not be lopsided. If you are doing all, or the vast majority, of the compromising, that will come across as needy. She should be equally motivated to accommodate you, because she values time with you. It's not tit-for-tat, but an overall give-give (rather than give-take).

[Wave Rider]

In a moment of impeccable timing, this article about the future of self showed up today from Mark Manson, an author I like to read.