Held in contempt

[Lobe]

I know I had things that simply would not go away until I finally did this - made my WH listen while I told him in detail why a certain set of events/attitudes/remarks were so devastating and clung to me for so long.

 

What was his reaction?

 

We (and I) have indeed talked about it both inside and outside of counselling. I think you're 100% correct that the very deepest part of me is still very deeply hurt. I'm just tired of hearing my own voice.

[Mr. Lucky]

I guess I'm publicly mourning the fact that my marriage is over the second I admit blow job week is not ok if cunnilingus week isn't a thing.

 

Before I begin to actively campaign for this at home, I should probably ask:

 

What is blow job week ???

 

Mr. Lucky

[Lobe]

Before I begin to actively campaign for this at home, I should probably ask:

 

What is blow job week ???

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Without getting particularly graphic, for some of us sex on the rag isn't an option. In my case it's an issue of extraordinarily heavy blood flow that is anything but sexy, while for others it's because either one or both parties finds it repulsive. In lieu of vaginal penetration, we opt for a combo of oral and manual stimulation... Hence, "blow job week." I suggest if you want to campaign for this at home, you preface the conversation with, "How would you feel about cunnilingus week?" lol

[Mrs. John Adams]

As a wayward...I would like to tell you something.

 

I told my husband something my AP did...and on rare occasion he does it. I am not sure he even realizes what he is doing. But I can tell you...when he does it...it makes me sick to my stomach.

 

I want my husband sexually for who he is and what we have together...our sex has always been incredibly fulfilling. I do not want him to be anyone other than who he is. I desire him for who he is and how he is sexually.

 

If your husband ask you to perform like his AP sexually...I truly feel there is a huge issue.

 

I am extremely concerned that he is not where he needs to be....in many ways.

 

It took me many years....to reach a place of understanding true remorse. Until then...I felt nothing toward my ap....I did not hate him....I felt nothing.

 

As the years have passed...and I have come to understand true remorse....I have grown to hate my AP. I don't know if that's healthy or not....but I know it pleases my husband.

 

Your husband should have no fond memories...he should not want you to behave like...or do anything he found pleasing in his AP. He should be totally and completely in love and in lust with you...just the way you are and for who you are. If he is not....there is a problem.

 

You are 18 months into Reconciliation...he doesn't have the first clue what remorse is. He is sorry...does he have remorse? no

[BettyDraper]

I'm just going to come out and say that you need to dump his sorry ass.

 

Affairs can deliver a real blow to the ego of a betrayed spouse. The feeling of rejection from the one person who was supposed to be a guaranteed supporter is tough to handle. And while trying to be sexually open was probably a noble effort at first, his humiliation form of doninance is further eroding your self-worth. Just staying with someone who should treat us better is rough enough on your self-pride. This is making it exponentially worse.

 

Look, you don't have any reason for your self-esteem to be in the toilet. Your H is the one with piss poor judgment and is obviously off the charts selfish. He made some really crappy decisions that hurt the one person he was supposed to protect. He had lots of other choices that he could have made. That's on him. The fact that he's unremorseful, makes comparisons to the OW, and can't even give you the respect of a promise not to repeat his performance shows that he doesn't deserve you.

 

Take your power back. Kick his ass to the curb because he doesn't deserve you. Will it be tough to alone for a while? Sure. But you will recover and you'll eventually be quite proud of the fact that you stood up for yourself. The alternative is a life sentence being treated like crap and feeling worse about yourself because you take it.

 

Put a stop to this. Quietly get your ducks in a row. Get a consult from an attorney on your options. Get a retainer together. Develop a support network. Make plans. And when you're ready, drop the hammer. In the meantime, have as many "headaches" and "sorry, I'm on my period" excuses at the ready as possible. Want to put him off for a while? Say something about a strange discharge that you need to get checked out.

 

But get yourself out of there. And start to heal. Trust me. You will eventually look back and say to yourself, "Thank God I'm not with that ass hole anymore" and you'll just be upset you stayed so long. So get to it. And frankly, start looking forward to your next life. It is out there waiting for you.

 

Well said!

 

You deserve far better than an unrepentant and completely reprehensible WS.

[BettyDraper]

I don't know if she was or wasn't into BDSM, and on some level, like 66Charger mentioned, her motive is irrelevant if HE has discovered he actually has BDSM tendencies. Like I said, there's that part of me that wants it to be nicely wrapped up with some pop psychology thing about him "punishing" the OW with aggressive sex somehow being his way of punishing me. It's amazing how much our brains will twist things to feed the delusion required for self-preservation...

 

There was ONE episode of rough sex between him and I, a couple of days after d-day. He had decided to stay (what would turn out to be a false R) and I was completely caught off guard as we had never engaged in anything that involved rough play. What was normal sex for him with her, was completely abnormal for us. I told him that he should have asked if he could slap or choke me, because in the end I didn't feel dominated I just felt raped and violated. Shortly after that, he left (stayed with family not the OW) to sort his head out (he lasted 10 days before knowing what he wanted) and since the TT ended (unfortunately with the disclosure of this whole BDSM thing) he has ultimately been the textbook definition of a remorseful and supportive WH.

 

FWIW, he has never asked me to play submissive, even after full disclosure - I put that upon myself to try. While we agreed to try some role play and set our own boundaries, I still couldn't stop feeling like I was trying to live up to some fantasy that we all know I could never live up to. Since that failed exploration, I have been clear that if he needs that degree of aggression I am not the person he needs to be with. And yet, every once in a while, when he gets a little too rough and I tell him to tone it down, that contempt comes creeping in. Perhaps it's contempt for himself I'm detecting because in order to make his marriage work he has to be someone he isn't. Who knows?

 

Is he worth keeping? Yes. Do I want to keep him if being with me he is just miserable? No. Do I think he pines for the OW? Definitely no. Do I think he pines for sexual freedom? Possibly. Is he actually looking at me with contempt or am I being triggered for no real reason? I have no idea.

 

Why is your husband worth keeping?

[Lobe]

If your husband ask you to perform like his AP sexually...I truly feel there is a huge issue.

 

He did not ask me to.

 

The first time, he just did it. I told him I felt violated.

 

Weeks later it came out that they had done a lot of choke/gag/slap in their trysts. I thought (me, my mine NOT him) that I was being magnanimous, that I was going to help our marriage grow stronger, by being a "big" enough person to say fine, you accidentally discovered this side of yourself, I can do this...

 

Even though the second time we had rough play it was consensual, when I tried, it filled me with rage and disgust, not because he asked me to (it was my idea) and not because I see anything wrong with it, but because the OW introduced him to it.

Edited June 4, 2016 by Lobe
Typos...

[Mrs. John Adams]

He did not ask me to.

 

The first time, he just did it. I told him I felt violated.

 

Weeks later it came out that they had done a lot of choke/gag/slap in their trysts. I thought (me, my mine NOT him) that I was being magnanimous, that I was going to help our marriage grow stronger, by being a "big" enough person to say fine, you accidentally discovered this side of yourself, I can do this...

 

Even though the second time we had rough play it was consensual, when I tried, it filled me with rage and disgust, not because he asked me to (it was my idea) and not because I see anything wrong with it, but because the OW introduced him to it.

 

so he did not ask...he just DID

 

no...this is not acceptable behavior for a remorseful wayward...not even close

 

 

There is no reason for you to comply with ANYTHING

 

you are the one with the power now...you are the one calling the shots....

 

you have allowed this man to be in control

 

I am telling you....ask your therapist....this man should be groveling at your feet that you have allowed him to stay.

 

REAL remorse means he understands the pain and anguish he has caused you...he places himself inside of that pain...and he will do ANYTHING to help you feel safe and loved.

 

this reconciliation is not about HIM...it is about the two of you together....it is about working toward a common goal of love and respect. It is about putting the NEEDS of your spouse before your own.

 

It is fine if he wants to explore sexual things...it can be exciting....but you ask each other...you discuss it....and you agree what is or is not comfortable.

 

You do not become demanding and aggressive....you do not EXPECT your spouse to behave a certain way...especially if those avenues have never been approached before.

 

Anything we have done sexually...we have discussed...we have set limits...we have placed boundaries.

 

Sex is as much about respect as anything else..maybe more so....because of the intimacy involved. Sex involves a good deal of trust...especially when it involves BDSM.

[minimariah]

Lobe. just wanted to tell you how BEAUTIFUL your writing is. i enjoy reading you, you sound like such a clever lady.

 

don't know if you mentioned this before but - did you ever discuss the nature of his affair? was it just sex or was there an emotional connection?

[ladydesigner]

When my wife cheated it was with a guy into that kind of thing. See, if she would have came to me and told me she liked it, I would have been all for it. But now that she wanted to discover that because of another man, I find I have no stomach for it. I won't do it to please her.

 

Yep my WH tried to introduce a new sex act that I did not like at all. Now I know it was from the A, but at the time it made me physically ill. I told my WH not to ever do anything like that to me again. This whole thread makes me physically ill, not you OP your WS, he sounds like a sexual deviant.

 

I think if my WH were to want to try anything he did with MOW with me I would rather f**k myself.

[Lobe]

Lobe. just wanted to tell you how BEAUTIFUL your writing is. i enjoy reading you, you sound like such a clever lady.

 

don't know if you mentioned this before but - did you ever discuss the nature of his affair? was it just sex or was there an emotional connection?

 

Thank you for the compliment - I try! ?

 

It began friendship, went PA, and by the end WH was pretty convinced he was in love with her towards the end when he got sloppy enough to get caught. I ask him about it now and he physically recoils at the thought of her. As much as I realize he made his own choices, OW was (and still is) a piece of work. I vacillate between loathing her and wanting to put her in therapy myself. While it's really easy to demonize her, part of the attraction for my husband was that she is everything I am not. In the face of adversity, some will fall, others will fly. She is the wounded bird to my veteran Phoenix. Fans the antonym for strong, independent, nurturing, intelligent, articulate, cultured, and educated... And you have her profoundly sad dating profile. Kids from two men, who have custody of her kids because she didn't show up in court to get them back after they were taken away. Lives in a sibling's basement because she can't make enough money to rent her own place. I think I saw the term "affaired down" once and if that's not a thing, it should be. WH was totally slumming it lol. She manipulated him; he was a willing participant. If the two of them had ended up together I'm pretty sure they would be the textbook definition of codependent...

[Lois_Griffin]

We do have an amazing relationship now. He's read the Linda MacDonald book and he does and says the right thing.

So big deal. He read a book and now says what the book told him is the proper thing to say to someone you screwed over royally. Honestly, that's not a huge accomplishment.

 

But you've completely contradicted yourself.

 

You say you have an 'amazing' relationship now, yet in another post, you clearly said he's never even said he won't cheat on you again.

 

So how 'amazing' can it really be?

 

Lastly, the guy has a fetish and it's most unfortunate that at times, you've crossed your own boundaries and allowed yourself to be degraded in order for him to fly his freak flag. I think you did that in an attempt to try to compete with his OW because your husband manipulated you into doing it by trying to make you feel sexually inferior to his OW.

 

I find it amusing that he now 'recoils' at the throught of her. So many cheaters put on that phony act purely for appeasement. I'd be real careful about believing anything he says.

 

In truth, it kind of sounds as though you've continually lowered the bar and lowered your expectations in what you'll accept in a mate in order to hang onto this guy with everything you've got. For the life of me I can't figure out why. I would have booted his damned ass to the curb so hard and so fast I would have had to FedEx his shadow to hm the next day. Given his proclivity for giving (and receiving?) pain, he probably would have enjoyed it.

 

Blech.

[Mr. Lucky]

I ask him about it now and he physically recoils at the thought of her. As much as I realize he made his own choices, OW was (and still is) a piece of work.

 

I'm just going to say it's interesting how many free-roaming WS's conveniently "recoil at the thought" of their AP's if they're reconciling after D-Day.

 

The sex that was so compelling they willingly lied to/gaslighted their BS during the A suddenly becomes awful in the retelling during R.

 

Seems a little orchestrated to me...

 

Mr. Lucky

[merrmeade]

Originally Posted by merrmeade

I know I had things that simply would not go away until I finally did this - made my WH listen while I told him in detail why a certain set of events/attitudes/remarks were so devastating and clung to me for so long.

What was his reaction?

 

We (and I) have indeed talked about it both inside and outside of counselling. I think you're 100% correct that the very deepest part of me is still very deeply hurt. I'm just tired of hearing my own voice.

He listened, hung his head, said again that he was sorry and, when I asked, that he understood why I had to tell him. But frankly it wouldn't have mattered, I think, how he reacted because (a) I didn't have expectations regarding his reaction and (b) I mainly needed to feel that he heard it. The relief for me came from the telling. I guess it would not have been the same if he had dismissed it or not listened, but he heard and that's all I needed.

 

The thing is WHAT I've needed to tell him has changed as the months and, now, four years have gone by. As I told him the last time I had an insight to share, I'm NEVER going to stop sharing these reflections with you because each understanding brings a new level of insight from a different perspective. And every single time, I NEED to make sure he knows what I've seen and understood for me.

 

The fact is that he will never go through the kind of rigorous self-examination that I do. It's who each of us is. I accept that.

 

I can't say this perspective will work or bring the same relief for you.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I'm just going to say it's interesting how many free-roaming WS's conveniently "recoil at the thought" of their AP's if they're reconciling after D-Day.

 

The sex that was so compelling they willingly lied to/gaslighted their BS during the A suddenly becomes awful in the retelling during R.

 

Seems a little orchestrated to me...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

I did not recoil ... I felt nothing

 

And that bothered my John ... He wanted me to hate the ap

 

As I came to understand remorse I did hate him .. I hate him for his part of the pain we inflicted on my husband. We are both responsible for that. I hate him because he danced in and out of our lives and suffered nothing

 

And here we are 33 years later still recovering

 

I am not a victim but I had a partner in crime

[AlwaysGrowing]

I'm just going to say it's interesting how many free-roaming WS's conveniently "recoil at the thought" of their AP's if they're reconciling after D-Day.

 

The sex that was so compelling they willingly lied to/gaslighted their BS during the A suddenly becomes awful in the retelling during R.

 

Seems a little orchestrated to me...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

 

I imagine for some WS, it is orchestrated.

 

I also have no problem believing that some XWS have gone through a change in their thought processes or views on subjects/events/people on reflection....much like every other person has in some point in their life.

 

I do not hold many of the views I held in my late teens, 20's, 30's....etc. I grew from them. I learned from them. I gained empathy, understanding, other POV, seeing things as they are...not just what I "want" to see. I understand the relationship between actions/motivations. I see how things aren't as happenstance as I once thought. I can look beyond the superficial face that people show and see if their actions/words contradict that facade.

 

Being that I give myself the right to hold a different view in the present over past events/issue, I therefore believe that others can have a different perspective in the present over past events. And it is based on their truth.

[Mr. Lucky]

Being that I give myself the right to hold a different view in the present over past events/issue, I therefore believe that others can have a different perspective in the present over past events. And it is based on their truth.

 

Don't disagree.

 

But I have to look no further than my own WS's affair. We'd become so disconnected and embattled that our sexlife suffered as a result, it was awful. And my exW was a sexual person so it was important to her, I knew that. I was young, dumb, arrogant and blinded by my own hubris.

 

So D-Day came and as we tried (unsuccessfully) to work things out since we had a child, home, extended family, etc, she obviously felt she had to disavow the sexual part of the A. It was awful, she only did it to keep him close, didn't enjoy it, etc. All of which might have made sense had I not found some correspondence between the two of them that would make E.L. James blush.

 

So while I'm certainly not referencing the OP, I see echoes of the same thing often in this forum. If there's hysterical bonding, there seems to often also be revisionist history...

 

Mr. Lucky

[AlwaysGrowing]

I agree there is a difference between acknowledging what one thought/did at the time and how they view/feel it today.

 

If I missed the post where the OP XWS was rewriting his thoughts/deeds of how he viewed it during the affair...I apologize. I only read the post where the OP stated his present feelings regarding the affair/AP.

 

You know, years ago...I would not have been able to acknowledge/accept the difference between the two. Because you are correct....damn they sound like echoes of each other. It would have been something that I would not have been able to accept as the truth from others AND deny that I ever held such two opposing viewpoints on a subject/event/person.

 

Ahhh...the good old days...when I was so sure of myself/thoughts/views and so very wrong at the same time. I don't miss it at ALL.

[Lobe]

He listened, hung his head, said again that he was sorry and, when I asked, that he understood why I had to tell him. But frankly it wouldn't have mattered, I think, how he reacted because (a) I didn't have expectations regarding his reaction and (b) I mainly needed to feel that he heard it. The relief for me came from the telling. I guess it would not have been the same if he had dismissed it or not listened, but he heard and that's all I needed.

 

I need to adopt this policy, even if I am sick of hearing my own voice. Thank you.

[merrmeade]

I need to adopt this policy, even if I am sick of hearing my own voice. Thank you.

But I need to tell you that this last time which I described, his reaction was unusually accepting and humble. There were other reactions, other times that were quite different. It's a long story. But my point is still that - regardless of how he reacts - the telling is for me. I know what it does to me to keep it to myself. I've watched it happen too many times, and seen it start eating away at every corner of my life. I have to tell it and I have to tell it to him. Whether he explodes or hangs his head, it's all because of his shame and I know that he can only grasp just so much of what I'm explaining at the time. But, regardless of his reaction, I can tell the following days that he got it. It's enough that I can move on. As far as I'm concerned, I'm free once I've told him.

[Lobe]

Being that I give myself the right to hold a different view in the present over past events/issue, I therefore believe that others can have a different perspective in the present over past events. And it is based on their truth.

 

This. SO much this. I have exes (and think many people have exes) that I dated, defended to the death to my family and friends regardless of all the Big Red Flags I ought to have paid attention to, and now recoil at the thought of being involved or intimate with them. Sadly for me, one of those regrettable relationships ended with a short- and ill-lived marriage and a child whose father has never been a father to our child. While it's easy to dismiss a WS's behaviour as being just an act to win their way back into a relationship, I'm not faking when I shudder at the thought of certain individuals (like my child's father) who, at the time we were involved I would have done anything for. The fact that WH's relationship with OW was concurrent with my marriage doesn't negate his ability to change his mind and think he made a mistake. He's a horrible actor and an even worse liar, likely why he had a months-long instead of a years-long affair.

 

I have my demons and while I know they exist because of what WH did, HE has demons from the affair, too. Sometimes, good people do bad things. He is disgusted by his own behaviour during the affair. I see the pained look on his face. I watch him struggle. I see him go down his own rabbit holes. I don't want him to wallow in his pain but I cannot tell a lie - watching him fight those demons is (oddly) reassuring.

[Mr Blunt]

Originally Posted by Mr. Lucky

I'm just going to say it's interesting how many free-roaming WS's conveniently "recoil at the thought" of their AP's if they're reconciling after D-Day.

The sex that was so compelling they willingly lied to/gaslighted their BS during the A suddenly becomes awful in the retelling during R.

Seems a little orchestrated to me...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

 

 

BY Mrs JA

I did not recoil ... I felt nothing

And that bothered my John ... He wanted me to hate the ap

As I came to understand remorse I did hate him .. I hate him for his part of the pain we inflicted on my husband. We are both responsible for that. I hate him because he danced in and out of our lives and suffered nothing

And here we are 33 years later still recovering

I am not a victim but I had a partner in crime

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mr. Lucky

Mrs. JA has posted many posts where she has stated that her John is number one by a mile. John has posted some posts that verify that. I for one do not find that Mrs. JA has orchestrated her hate of the OM at all. Hatred of evil is commendable

 

At one time I wanted my WS to hate the AP and the fact that Mrs. JA has done that because John is her number one is OUTSTANDING!

Edited June 5, 2016 by Mr Blunt

[Lobe]

As far as I'm concerned, I'm free once I've told him.

 

I said a lot to him last night. I am hoping to feel free. Right now I just feel exposed and raw - we've never talked about *this* stuff outside of counselling.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I said a lot to him last night. I am hoping to feel free. Right now I just feel exposed and raw - we've never talked about *this* stuff outside of counselling.

 

good...now it is up to him to respond to your needs and wants and fears.

[Just a Guy]

Hi Lobe, I haven't read through all the pages of your thread except the first and the last. However I think I have the gist of your situation and I would like to weigh in too. The fact is that when people post on forums like these one really does not get a grasp of the picture wholistically. For instance we do not know you in person so we cannot really evaluate a situation based on what you have posted here. For that matter we do not know your husband either. That being the case some people jump to conclusions about the two people involved and pass remarks or judge their actions based on the very little information that really trickles through posts like yours. The fact is that you know your husband best having shared a life with him for a considerable period of time. Only you would know whether he is the Devil himself or just an ordinary human being caught up in the tide of human affairs and human failings. You yourself have made some bad choices in you life as per your own admission. This was a poor choice he made and only you know deep down whether he is making adequate efforts to help you heal and, for himself, to realize the enormity of his error. If at any time you do feel that he is not sincere you have every right to walk out of this marriage. If, on the other hand you feel that he is striving to make good on his transgressions, the you should have the confidence and large heartedness to give him enough space to keep working on himself to make reparations to you. Yes you can use this forum as a sounding board to get your thoughts and feelings organized but you and only will have to decide whether it is worth your while to continue in this marriage or not. Others cannot tell you one way or another. I do not know what the state of you marriage was prior to your husband's affair and what it is like now. Only you would know the true state. The fact is that you will have yo fig deep and trust your intuition to guide you in the right direction.

One thing I want to say is that a lot of us have preconceived notions of what we like or don't like. However these likes and dislikes can be changed much as one can change a bad habit to acquire a good one. So be charitable towards your husband and see to what extent you can accommodate him. Hope this helps. Warm wishes.