Do Not Ever Chase Men

[katiegrl]

My problem isn't the game; the game is simply the game. It's the hypocrisy when I try to discuss this with people on an adult level, and they start reframing things like mirroring as 'being busy'.

 

 

No you're not getting it but after this I am done explaining.

 

We mirror our partner when our PARTNER appears busy or pulling back, or whatever other excuse he/she is giving us for PULLING BACK and NOT giving the same attention he/she was giving up until that point.

 

It is smart and self protective for us (woman or man) to do that when it appears our partner is losing interest and or "busy" or again whatever other reason they are giving us....

 

To do otherwise is CHASING them.... or acting needy or clingy which I DO NOT recommend. Do you?

 

Yes we need to control our own behavior here, if we don't we take the chance of being used, strung along and becoming overly invested in someone who isn't doing anything to warrant our becoming invested.

 

It's called smart dating.

 

DONE

Edited June 6, 2016 by katiegrl

[carhill]

Yeah, I see a lot of that mirroring stuff go on, not only in romantic encounters but also in general. I guess for some it is strident and purposeful but I've always experienced more as catching myself naturally doing it and then thinking about why I did. Heh, my best friend and I mimic each others mannerisms so consistently that a lot of folks think we're brothers. It's not on purpose rather evolved over 20+ years of being around each other.

 

I'm unclear where the mirroring stuff fits in with chasing but I wouldn't think a woman I met who mirrored some of my mannerisms would be chasing me, rather interacting. Pretty normal stuff IME.

 

Oh, got it now.... different type of mirroring....

[katiegrl]

Yeah, I see a lot of that mirroring stuff go on, not only in romantic encounters but also in general. I guess for some it is strident and purposeful but I've always experienced more as catching myself naturally doing it and then thinking about why I did. Heh, my best friend and I mimic each others mannerisms so consistently that a lot of folks think we're brothers. It's not on purpose rather evolved over 20+ years of being around each other.

 

I'm unclear where the mirroring stuff fits in with chasing but I wouldn't think a woman I met who mirrored some of my mannerisms would be chasing me, rather interacting. Pretty normal stuff IME.

 

Oh, got it now.... different type of mirroring....

 

Yes it is pretty normal stuff and standard dating 101.

 

If someone we are dating begins to pull back on the amount of time or attention they are giving us, we have one of two choices.

 

1. YOU pull back yourself (mirror them), or

2. Next them.

 

OR you could start by pulling back and mirroring their actions (or non actions) and if nothing changes, THEN next them.

 

If, on the other hand, you respond to their pulling back by acting needy and clingy and begin chasing asking for reassurance or whatever, you risk pushing them away even further.

 

Best to mirror whatever amount of attention they are giving you, right back at them and let the chips fall where there may.

 

I don't really see how there is any other choice.

 

This goes for both men and women...

[Timshel]

I agree with Taramere and Katie....what a bunch of horse manure. Gentlemen and Ladies, if you put poop on a platter do not expect dessert.

 

Really, mirror means you get what you give.....super smart people.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Timshel
add an s for proper meaning.

[Shining One]

This is the first I'm hearing about the mirroring concept. While it sounds good in concept, I'm seeing some "selective mirroring" in this thread. Personally, I appreciate a woman who truly (not selectively) mirrors my dating efforts.

[Els]

I agree with OP, unfortunately - I've never seen a good long-term outcome (IRL, anyway) when the woman pursues and the man remains passive. Even if they eventually get together, it's usually obvious that his heart isn't really in it, as evidenced by the lack of effort he puts into the R. Which is worse than a flat-out rejection, really. I've never had it happen to me (never pursued before), but I've seen it happen to a few friends. Very painful.

 

This doesn't mean that we shouldn't reciprocate, of course. I don't agree with the man initiating 100% of everything either.

[deep_night]

i disagree that mirroring is protecting yourself.

 

mirroring means you wait for someone else to decide how you're going to act next. it all depends on how THEY act, its as if you dont own your own actions and you cant have your own reactions to stuff. i find this to be kinda like co dependency in disguise. and its a bit like keeping a score.

 

im not saying that u have to pester people, but it has happened to me many times that someone is pulling away cos they feel awful and self conscious about something else and think im not going to be understanding. but by not mirroring them and talking to them instead, their mood was better, we ended up having fun and there was some trust built.

[nordic]

Dear God! Have you been reading PUA sites or something. A few comments....

 

- No, you chasing him did NOT change his mind about you. It did not kill his attraction, make him decide you aren't the one etc. He never felt that way about you in the first place. Accept this. If you had played the perfect prey animal it would not have changed the outcome one iota. The outcome is he isn't interested.

 

- There's a difference between asserting yourself into someone's life and being invited into someone's life. When you are invited the effort to reach out, make dates etc is reciprocal. When you assert yourself then just the other person not actively resisting that assertion does not make it an invitation.

 

- For what it's worth, I asked for a man's number, I set up dates and eventually he asked me to marry him. I was the one to call off that relationship. So sorry, this Darwinian BS about men being hardwired to be a predator animal is just BS.

 

- Men are not a separate species, to women. We are all human. We all possess the impulse to be with each other. The fact that some women assert themselves into someone's life and call that romance, does not make men a predatory animal species and women a prey animal species. It means that some women do not understand proper boundaries and then experience the results of that.

 

- If you offer candy to a kid, do you really expect the kid to decline? That is what some women do. They offer their body in the hopes of manipulating a guy into what they want. The guy takes the freely offered candy and fails to be manipulated into a relationship. This gives rise to the woman creating all sorts of ridiculous justifications as to why her manipulation tactic failed. It's this inability to take responsibility for the outcome that has led to the rise of PUA community, which is just a masterclass in manipulation techniques. That manipulation didn't work? Oh okay, well try this one instead. :roll eyes: That is what Game is, it's manipulation. If you play Game, either as predator or prey, expect to be manipulated.

 

- The advice to require reciprocation in relationships is sound. But that's got nothing to do with predators and prey. It has to do with making an honest offer of companionship to someone and then allowing them to decide if they wish to accept it or not. If the answer is no, then we accept that person's free will in the matter and move on.

 

Any other 'explanation' is just storytelling of the very dishonest kind.

 

This "Men are not a separate species, to women. We are all human. "

 

contradicts this "If you offer candy to a kid, do you really expect the kid to decline? That is what some women do. They offer their body in the hopes of manipulating a guy into what they want."

 

If he gets candy so do you. The way you write it makes it clear that you understand which sex wants the candy the most. So yes, we are separate species, when it comes to sex, very much so.

 

Male game works, and it work well, since the objective is less complicated. The idea is to get the woman naked on her knees in front of you and get your cock inside her ass, or whatever you like to do as a man sexually.

 

Female game would be enormously much harder to pull off. Obviously getting laid takes no game at all for a woman, its trivial. But a woman who wants to use game tactics to get into a relationship will find it hard to do so, and to also then find herself in a relationships she actually wants to be in.

 

Male game is about creating sexual attrcation, making the woman act on it, and after that is done, it doesnt matter what happens. He leaves and any of the tactics he used any of the lies he told any of the behavior he showed to off that was not part of his intrinsic personality but mostly role played, is going to matter in that relationship. He will have learned things that he can use on the next girl he meets and so on. Nothing needs to be real and in fact, if it is, its probably not very good.

 

Women want something much more elusive, a long term investment. Well that type of lying and manipulation means that you will be around to face consequences of your lies and manipulation. It can work, but most likely it will not. It might be seen for what it is, and used for sex. Or not seen for what it is and discovered later, which will lead to a very low quality relationship, based on cover ups and lack of genuine intimacy.

 

Using sex carries all those problems in one package. Men dont care if you sleep with them on the first date or third, that is a female myth that stems from womens lack of understanding for men. Any nasty hot sex you have with your man will never push him away its more likely to attract him.

 

What women get is that its the sex you have with other men that creates the push from you. Now using that as game, is a short term strategy that might be boarderline dangerous if pursued over and over with different men.

 

If you know you banged 50 men and let a bunch of them cum in your face, but feels like its a great plan to become a born again virgin using game tactics and thus creating feelings in a man. When he finds that out, after he has feelings, you will shouted at, have things break around you, have a very cold passive aggressive male in your house, whichever way this specific man expresses feelings. But it will not be good, because his feelings will not be good.

 

I suggest just be yourself, that is an advice that does not work for men, but for women it does, since women actually have the superpower of sexuality at their disposal. They dont need to create like men do, but just refrain from screwing their situation up.

 

And no, having sex, or not having sex, will never make a man like you, that didnt like you from the beginning anyway, so that type of game is a bit stupid.

[Taramere]

i disagree that mirroring is protecting yourself.

 

mirroring means you wait for someone else to decide how you're going to act next. it all depends on how THEY act, its as if you dont own your own actions and you cant have your own reactions to stuff. i find this to be kinda like co dependency in disguise. and its a bit like keeping a score.

 

im not saying that u have to pester people, but it has happened to me many times that someone is pulling away cos they feel awful and self conscious about something else and think im not going to be understanding. but by not mirroring them and talking to them instead, their mood was better, we ended up having fun and there was some trust built.

 

Occasionally if I think somebody is sulking with me or playing a game, and I care enough to explore it with them, I will take that risk of contacting somebody who might just not want me to contact them. But if they say "no, everything's fine - I'm just busy" then I'll leave it there.

 

I know that I will often find myself feeling a bit snowed under with various demands. Making time to have a proper meet up with a friend (as opposed to catching up here and there with texts or emails) can take a bit of planning. Especially if you feel in the need for some chill out time. I know lots of other people who feel that way, so if somebody isn't getting in touch with me I'll tend to assume that's how things are for them and that they'll get in touch when things are less hectic.

 

I've heard people say things like "but I saw X on Facebook. He/she has time for that". I'll feel guilty myself "Ha, I have time to post on LS but then I come up with excuses to people about how I haven't had time for X and Y" But piddling about on the internet requires a lot less focus than interacting in a meaningful way with a specific person.

 

If I met up with a new guy, and then he seemed to just drift off the scene I would just let him. I don't think that's passive so much as just not having time and inclination to chase somebody who doesn't seem fussed about meeting up. Nobody wants to be a bit of a chore to meet up with or spend time with. Even if you like somebody, if you're busy and stressed, making time to meet up with them can be a bit of a thought. Getting ready, making the journey to meet with them, maybe spending 5 hours together or more...that's a lot of consecutive hours that you're having to devote to one person. Which, if you've got a massive to do list lurking at the back of your mind, is going to stress you out.

 

It can be difficult for two people in that situation to make quality time with eachother. If you're important to somebody and they're important to you, you'll tend to work it out...but when I look at some of the threads here where people are saying "he hasn't contacted me in a week" and others are saying "well then he's not into you" I tend to think...well, for somebody who's snowed under with a lot of demands, a week really isn't much. Especially if you know that the moment you do get in touch, there will be an expectation of meeting up very soon afterwards and ensuring that you have 5 or 6 consecutive hours set aside where you're going to have to be switched on, attentive etc.

 

To me, when I meet up with somebody I want it to be fun and enjoyable for both of us. I don't want them to be in a frame of mind where they're thinking "God, I feel obliged to spend 5 hours with Taramere to reassure her that she matters to me - when really, there are 100 other things that I should be prioritising right now." I'd prefer quality of time over quantity.

[Revolver]

If I'm being chased by a female I just assume she wants to bang me. It's the groupie theory

[Taramere]

If I'm being chased by a female I just assume she wants to bang me. It's the groupie theory

 

And it's one that younger women in particular need to maintain awareness of. An earlier poster was saying something along the lines of "I'm a maneater. I pursue what I want, and I get bored with them before they get bored with me." Which, if she's a confident and sexually experienced woman is fine. She'll have the instincts and the assertiveness to manage those situations.

 

A younger girl following that message could get herself into problems pretty quickly. And "groupie theory" sums it up quite well. The girl might well want to see herself as an empowered individual going after what she wants, but that's not going to stop the locker room gossip that dismisses her as a desperate groupie who's gagging for it.

 

I've worked with adolescents in the past, and those girls are rarely as tough inside as they want people to believe. It generally takes time and a lot of life experience for people to genuinely reach a point where other people's opinions about them, in situations like that, aren't going to keep them awake at night.

[Jabron1]

What crap? Mirroring? It's just a word to describe a common piece of social behaviour that people engage in without really thinking about.

 

We've already defined mirroring as something that people do purposefully.

 

You either aren't reading, or have a selective reading problem.

 

Seriously, it's just rationalisation after rationalisation.

 

And Katie wondered why I couldn't be bothered to address her on this

 

I (should) know better than to even bother.

 

Another step on my journey perhaps.

 

 

Like some types of behaviour seen as flirtatious. Some people might do it in a very conscious way (to the point that it comes across as fake and stilted). Some people might do it automatically without even realising they're doing it.

 

Therein comes the gaslighting.

 

Someone like Kate (just as an example here - it's predictable, and more than any individual), says she doesn't do it and doesn't play games. She's just 'busy'.

 

Then a few posts later says drops (some of) the nonsense, and says that she does it.

 

"I'm don't do mirroring! I'm 'busy'. It's in your head" = gaslighting behaviour.

 

If you think that absolutely every bit of social behaviour people engage in is very carefully thought through, then that probably does speak to your own tendency to overthink/plan your own behaviour. The fact that you're getting pissed off about this, and using phrases like "la la land" and words like "delusional" suggest that the diagnosis of projection is bang on target. But I don't think many of us would need to see you throwing a bit of a hissy fit to have guessed that one already.

 

More of the same. Go tell this to some plank that's willing to converse on your level, and doesn't know any better.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Jabron1

[Taramere]

We've already defined mirroring as something that people do purposefully.

 

You either aren't reading, or have a selective reading problem.

 

Seriously, it's just rationalisation after rationalisation.

 

And Katie wondered why I couldn't be bothered to address her on this

 

I (should) know better than to even bother.

 

Another step on my journey perhaps.

 

 

 

 

Therein comes the gaslighting.

 

Someone like Kate (just as an example here - it's predictable, and more than any individual), says she doesn't do it and doesn't play games. She's just 'busy'.

 

Then a few posts later says drops (some of) the nonsense, and says that she does it.

 

"I'm don't do mirroring! I'm 'busy'. It's in your head" = gaslighting behaviour.

 

 

 

More of the same. Go tell this to some plank that's willing to converse on your level, and doesn't know any better.

 

I'm certainly open to learning new things on here, Jabron. In order to learn how to converse on a higher level.

 

Not knowing you, or what you do for a living, or anything like that, I can't possibly comment on whether you think, operate and work on a higher level than I do. Since you seem confident that you do operate on a higher level, however, and since this board is all about people improving their interpersonal skills, what would be your advice to women with regard to the focus of this thread?

 

Looking back in the thread, to see what sparked this argument about "mirroring" off, it seems to have started when you said...

 

I'll warn you right now that this whole 'mirroring' game that women play is completely transparent to any guy with even the slightest experience. It just makes you look daft.

 

It's also incredibly annoying.

 

That seemed to relate to women investing the same amount of time and energy in men as they perceived those men investing in them. If a man "mirrored" the effort I was making for him, I would think that was very fair of him.

 

Why would you be so annoyed by the prospect of women "mirroring" the effort men make for them? Do you think that it would be fairer, more honourable and less manipulative for a woman to make substantially more effort for a man than he makes for her?

[deep_night]

Occasionally if I think somebody is sulking with me or playing a game, and I care enough to explore it with them, I will take that risk of contacting somebody who might just not want me to contact them. But if they say "no, everything's fine - I'm just busy" then I'll leave it there.

 

I know that I will often find myself feeling a bit snowed under with various demands. Making time to have a proper meet up with a friend (as opposed to catching up here and there with texts or emails) can take a bit of planning. Especially if you feel in the need for some chill out time. I know lots of other people who feel that way, so if somebody isn't getting in touch with me I'll tend to assume that's how things are for them and that they'll get in touch when things are less hectic.

 

I've heard people say things like "but I saw X on Facebook. He/she has time for that". I'll feel guilty myself "Ha, I have time to post on LS but then I come up with excuses to people about how I haven't had time for X and Y" But piddling about on the internet requires a lot less focus than interacting in a meaningful way with a specific person.

 

If I met up with a new guy, and then he seemed to just drift off the scene I would just let him. I don't think that's passive so much as just not having time and inclination to chase somebody who doesn't seem fussed about meeting up. Nobody wants to be a bit of a chore to meet up with or spend time with. Even if you like somebody, if you're busy and stressed, making time to meet up with them can be a bit of a thought. Getting ready, making the journey to meet with them, maybe spending 5 hours together or more...that's a lot of consecutive hours that you're having to devote to one person. Which, if you've got a massive to do list lurking at the back of your mind, is going to stress you out.

 

It can be difficult for two people in that situation to make quality time with eachother. If you're important to somebody and they're important to you, you'll tend to work it out...but when I look at some of the threads here where people are saying "he hasn't contacted me in a week" and others are saying "well then he's not into you" I tend to think...well, for somebody who's snowed under with a lot of demands, a week really isn't much. Especially if you know that the moment you do get in touch, there will be an expectation of meeting up very soon afterwards and ensuring that you have 5 or 6 consecutive hours set aside where you're going to have to be switched on, attentive etc.

 

To me, when I meet up with somebody I want it to be fun and enjoyable for both of us. I don't want them to be in a frame of mind where they're thinking "God, I feel obliged to spend 5 hours with Taramere to reassure her that she matters to me - when really, there are 100 other things that I should be prioritising right now." I'd prefer quality of time over quantity.

 

I think what you describe is just being considerate.... (not "just", it's a big deal and respectful, but it has a really different motive than "mirroring" in my perception).

 

for those who mirror in order to guard their heart and to show that the other person doesnt have the upper hand... if you've started investing emotionally then no mirroring will keep you from feeling that pinch of hurt. if u dont really care then u dont even think about mirroring someone because u dont mind how u come across and because u arent vulnerable. and the guy who is mirrored notices when u do that, believe me. it's a turn off exactly because it shows that YOU CARE but are defensive.

 

btw im not criticising, because no one's perfect! you certainly arent terrible people doing this. but i dont like this kind of techniques being described as something good, cos they re kind of manipulative.... u'll know what i mean if a guy ever mirrors you its a frustrasting experience.

[katiegrl]

 

I (should) know better than to even bother.

 

 

The feeling is mutual..

 

You seem completely incapable of even attempting to understand what I, Taramere and others are saying.

 

I would never have expected you to be this rigid, but then again, I suppose if you were acknowledge what we're saying, you would also have to acknowledge that we are correct, it IS smart to mirror (under the circumstances we described).... and if you paid further attention, we are not talking about just women mirroring either.

 

MEN should also mirror when their partners don't appear to be as invested.... which by the way, YOU yourself advocate all the time... when you read about a guy becoming too invested in a chick who isn't giving him the time of day!

 

I still don't think you get what mirroring is, at least not in this context.

 

Might I suggest you give us an example of what you personally experience... and why you deem such behavior deceptive and insulting?

 

That might help us understand your POV better.

Edited June 7, 2016 by katiegrl

[katiegrl]

Someone like Kate (just as an example here - it's predictable, and more than any individual), says she doesn't do it and doesn't play games.

 

She's just 'busy'.

 

 

Apparently you missed this:

 

 

We mirror our partner when our PARTNER is busy or pulling back, or whatever other excuse he/she is giving us for PULLING BACK and NOT giving the same attention he/she was giving up until that point.

 

It is smart and self protective for us (woman or man) to do that when it appears our partner is losing interest and or "busy" or again whatever other reason they are giving us.... for pulling back.

 

 

Jabron, it would be really helpful if you would read and make an effort to understand posts.

 

It would save all of us a lot of wasted time and energy going back and forth saying the same dam thing and repeating ourselves ad nauseum.

 

In any event, as Timeshel said, we give what we get! That is smart!

 

Unless you think when a man appears to be NOT invested, not calling/texting, asking us out as much as he had been, the woman should start pursuing and giving more?

 

Is that what you think and expect?

 

And what about a man? When his gf starts flaking, taking two days to reply to a text, if at all... etc should HE step it up and give more than he's getting, more than she's giving?

 

I wouldn't think so since you've said otherwise many times, but perhaps you've changed your POV on that.

Edited June 7, 2016 by katiegrl

[Taramere]

I think what you describe is just being considerate.... (not "just", it's a big deal and respectful, but it has a really different motive than "mirroring" in my perception).

 

But a person might behave in the way I described, for the reasons I described, and be perceived as "mirroring" for suspect motives.

 

I think most of us do like to ascribe motives to people. Giving out a message of "I didn't come down in the last shower! I know what you're up to..." It's really tempting. Sometimes you can get that sense of "if I don't tell this person what I think their motives here are, they'll think they've pulled one over on me."

 

But in practice, ascribing motives to people often doesn't achieve much other than a) to keep conflict going and b) fuel paranoia and mistrust. The bottom line is that we can make guesses about other people's motives, but we don't always know. And sometimes our ability to guess others' motives accurately is hindered by our own insecurities, ego needs etc.

 

Which kind of ties into this..

 

for those who mirror in order to guard their heart and to show that the other person doesnt have the upper hand... if you've started investing emotionally then no mirroring will keep you from feeling that pinch of hurt. if u dont really care then u dont even think about mirroring someone because u dont mind how u come across and because u arent vulnerable.

 

Dare I say....a pinch of hurt is not the end of the world. It doesn't need to stop a person from practising the art of emotional discipline - which is not about having no emotion, or being completely indifferent. It's about recognising emotions and managing them.

 

and the guy who is mirrored notices when u do that, believe me. it's a turn off exactly because it shows that YOU CARE but are defensive.

 

I think if somebody were to be turned off me on the basis that they thought I cared but was defensive - well, obviously if this were somebody I really liked then I would be upset and disappointed. However, they would not be right for me and I would not be right for them. I don't think there's anything wrong with caring, and I think that realistically people do sometimes have to wear something of a shield. So it would be better for that incompatibility to come to the surface sooner rather than later.

 

btw im not criticising, because no one's perfect! you certainly arent terrible people doing this. but i dont like this kind of techniques being described as something good, cos they re kind of manipulative.... u'll know what i mean if a guy ever mirrors you its a frustrasting experience.

 

I'm still not really clear about what you and others really mean when you say "mirroring". It seems as though your interpretation of it differs from the one more traditionally employed by psychologists. Am I right in thinking that by "mirroring" you mean "going into a sulk in the hope that the other person will chase after them asking if they're okay"? If so, then then yes. That would irritate me - but it's not what I understand mirroring to mean.

 

And not pursuing somebody who seems to be taking a bit of time out isn't the same as sulking. Making a decision to expend less time and energy on somebody who isn't making much effort for you isn't the same as sulking either. It's a rational response - and it's better than continuing to make effort while storing up all kinds of resentment about it.

 

ETA - saw your previous post where you described mirroring along the lines of "waiting to see how another person behaves, and letting your own be dictated by that." Well, that sounds mainly like an extremely passive temperament. Which could indeed be annoying, but it's just how some people are. I doubt people of a less passive temperament would have the patience.

 

The term mirroring seems to have become all things to all people in this thread. What I'm getting is that various posters including Katie and me are interpreting it (for the purposes of this discussion at least) along the lines of "matching the effort you put in to the other person's." So if you find yourself making a lot of effort on another person's behalf, and you feel it's unappreciated (and you feel that way because they're not making similar efforts - eg to stay in touch, meet up or whatever) back, then you reduce the effort you're making. I think in cases where people feel their efforts are unappreciated, variants of "then reduce the effort you're making" are among the most commonly dispensed advice. And pretty sound advice too, I should have thought. You can't force other people to make more effort, but you can certainly choose to make less effort yourself - and if reducing your effort will reduce your resentment, it's a healthy action to take.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Taramere

[Jabron1]

what would be your advice to women with regard to the focus of this thread?

 

Do what you really want, and stop letting your ego rule you.

 

A lot of these 'rules' are just training wheels. The purpose is mostly to deceive, not appearing needy.

 

How about building such a life where neediness isn't your reality instead?

 

Same with the PUA crap of "don't text after a date", or any of that other nonsense.

 

It's ultimately shortsighted.

 

Looking back in the thread, to see what sparked this argument about "mirroring" off, it seems to have started when you said...

 

She mentioned it about 2 or 3 times as some sort of foundation for dating, and I addressed it - no one else did.

 

Cue rationalisations.

 

- Elaine: justification

- Katie: reframe (busy)

- UP: reframe (self-love)

- Candie and yourself: flipping the script onto me

 

- Buddist: surprisingly straight

 

 

That seemed to relate to women investing the same amount of time and energy in men as they perceived those men investing in them.

 

Disagree, mirroring typically is a way to get the other person to invest.

 

Hence why the OP thinks it'll get guys on the chase.

 

If a man "mirrored" the effort I was making for him, I would think that was very fair of him.

 

If a man mirrored the effort you were making for him, likely nothing would get done.

 

We'd start turning into Japan.

 

Mirroring is really pathetic for a man. Can't imagine a guy using this as a crutch.

 

Why would you be so annoyed by the prospect of women "mirroring" the effort men make for them?

 

Hypocrisy annoys me far more than mirroring ever has/would/will.

 

It's one thing to eat crap, it's another thing to pretend it's chocolate cake.

 

I mean, come on. This is just ridiculous at times. How is anyone supposed to improve without self-awareness?

 

How can the OP improve when she can't even accept the basic reality of her own favorite technique?

 

Do you think that it would be fairer, more honourable and less manipulative for a woman to make substantially more effort for a man than he makes for her?

 

I think it would be fairer, more honourable and less manipulative if we called a spade a spade.

 

We'd need to start there. We're a long way off. I'm not just talking about this thread either.

 

But to answer your question: no.

[Shining One]

We mirror our partner when our PARTNER appears busy or pulling back, or whatever other excuse he/she is giving us for PULLING BACK and NOT giving the same attention he/she was giving up until that point.

In any event, as Timeshel said, we give what we get! That is smart!

These statements are conflicting. You're actually giving what you get under very specific circumstances and not giving what you get outside of those circumstances. Mirroring when things are "bad" and not mirroring when things are "good" is disingenuous.

Do you think that it would be fairer, more honourable and less manipulative for a woman to make substantially more effort for a man than he makes for her?

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I think it would be fair and honorable for a woman to (within reason) match a man's efforts and vice versa. Periodically, one or the other would have to escalate efforts to move the relationship forward. As I mentioned previously, I think it's dishonorable to only match effort when things are "bad" and not match effort when things are "good".

[elaine567]

Mirroring when things are "bad" and not mirroring when things are "good" is disingenuous..

 

I don't think any woman here is suggesting that when things are good, then the right thing to do is to go cold and pull back and NOT mirror.

[katiegrl]

These statements are conflicting. You're actually giving what you get under very specific circumstances and not giving what you get outside of those circumstances. Mirroring when things are "bad" and not mirroring when things are "good" is disingenuous.

 

Thank you for calling me out on that because I was considering posting about that as well.

 

I can only speak for myself but I mirror no matter what. I give what I receive. And he should give relative to what HE receives back from me.

 

If HE is consistent with his attention and actions, in return I am consistent. And hopefully he gives that right back to me..... again it's a dance. Give and take, back and forth. It should all flow smoothly and naturally.

 

On the other hand, if he becomes hot/cold, inconsistent in his communication and actions, taking two or more days to return a call or text (for example), then I mirror that too. And pull back as well.

 

I give what I receive and he should too! Equal amounts of give and take... I think this is smart.

 

For both men and women.

Edited June 7, 2016 by katiegrl

[Shining One]

I don't think any woman here is suggesting that when things are good, then the right thing to do is to go cold and pull back and NOT mirror.

I said nothing about going cold. I'm saying it's disingenuous to mirror when things are bad and not mirror when things are good. Let's put effort on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the highest. The man puts in 8 effort for a while and the woman only puts in 6. The man then drops to 4 and the woman drops to 4 to match him. She is only mirroring him at his lowest effort and not mirroring him at his highest.

[elaine567]

The man puts in 8 effort for a while and the woman only puts in 6.

Who is suggesting that?

[Taramere]

Do what you really want, and stop letting your ego rule you.

 

It sounds as though you think the ego is a pretty negative thing that people should try to control - or end up being controlled by.

 

"Ego" is a Freudian term referring to the way we learn to balance our basic drives with externally imposed rules and realities. If somebody just gives into their basic drives all the time, they'll be an instant gratification seeking mess. If they constantly abide by the rules, they'll never have any fun. So the ego seeks to mediate between the Id (basic drives) and the Superego (imposer of rules, judgement and authority).

 

What the person at the start of the thread sounded like a Superego statement. Don't ever chase men. Never. No exceptions. The id might suggest pursuing hot men like a cat that's permanently on heat. The id seeks to control, and so does the superego. The ego's job is to try to find balanced solutions that will be "good enough" for the two extremists it has to mediate between.

 

A lot of these 'rules' are just training wheels. The purpose is mostly to deceive, not appearing needy.

 

Are you sure? I mean, look...you've suggested a few times here that you don't think the women on this thread are very self aware or insightful about people. It's not my role to convince you that we are or aren't. What I do notice, though, is that you make a lot of assumptions about people's motives, and definitive comments about human behaviour generally - but you don't ask questions.

 

Other than along the lines of ....

 

How about building such a life where neediness isn't your reality instead?

 

...which isn't so much a question, as another judgement (that women are needy). And this is something that PUA, from what I've seen, encourages. Basically "we'll teach you what goes on in women's minds, what motivates them, and how to make all this new information you've gathered about women work in your favour..."

 

I'm not saying this stuff never works. I think it probably does work...on women who are needy, who like to get involved in power games and drama etc etc. Of course it's going to work. People who enjoy games are going to gravitate towards people who play games. PUA, and probably women's dating books too, teach people to engage in protracted power struggles in the name of mastering the courtship game.

 

What the theories don't seem so good at encouraging is the kind of genuine curiosity that results in questions and exploration rather than just a torrent of "here's how women are" judgements. Even as they purport to encourage men to take the red pill, they're telling them how to think. Another judge and critic to join the rest of them in the Superego - while pretending to be something different.

 

You mock the ego, but the ego is the self. The id? That's just the same mass of basic drives that everybody else has. The Superego? That's just society inserting itself into our psyches. The ego is where the individual is created. The individual who knows what their basic drives are, and will try to meet them without going into self destruct. The individual who has a respectful relationship with society but resists being controlled by it. The individual who knows what they want and sets out to get it in a way that is mindful of certain rules and norms (unlike the psychopathic id).

 

Having a strong ego is not a wrong thing.

 

I mean, come on. This is just ridiculous at times. How is anyone supposed to improve without self-awareness?

 

Quite, but...

 

How can the OP improve when she can't even accept the basic reality of her own favorite technique?

 

So the OP will continue to lack self awareness until she sees things the way you see them? If that's the case, might it be equally possible that your own self awareness could be improved upon by attempting to see things from other people's perspective?

[Shining One]

Who is suggesting that?

It's a scenario I created to point out the flaw in selective mirroring. katiegrl has since clarified her stance on mirroring.

 

 

With that being said, here is how I picture mirroring:

• Person A initiates and executes a dinner date with Person B.
  
• Person B initiates and executes a dinner date with Person A.
  
• Person A initiates some communications with Person B.
  
• Person B initiates some communications with Person A.
  
• Person A slows down communications with Person B.
  
• Person B slows down communications with Person A.
  
• Person A plans and executes a day-long outing with Person B.
  
• Person B plans and executes a day-long outing with Person A.
  

Effort matching effort from day one. Mirroring at day twenty when one person put in the majority of effort before then isn't fair.