Do Not Ever Chase Men

[katiegrl]

I said nothing about going cold. I'm saying it's disingenuous to mirror when things are bad and not mirror when things are good. Let's put effort on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the highest. The man puts in 8 effort for a while and the woman only puts in 6. The man then drops to 4 and the woman drops to 4 to match him. She is only mirroring him at his lowest effort and not mirroring him at his highest.

 

See post 121....

 

If a man give 8, I give 8.

 

If she only gives back 6, then he should only give 6.

 

If she then starts giving 4, he gives 4. And so on and so forth.

 

We give to each other relative to what we receive from each other!

 

We mirror each other.

 

Always.

 

If the give/take continues to go down, I simply next him.

[UltimatePanacea]

Mirroring is not manipulation, nor it is a form of gaslighting. It's only a way to protect your heart whenever you see someone's not that into you. Mirroring is not only applied in romantic relationships but also in interpersonal ones, such as job, family, friends. Every time you notice that you put more investment into whatever relationship you are in and there is little to no reciprocation just stop investing or invest as much as the person you're dealing with. Just keep it going and redirect your focus elsewhere.

Here's my mantra now: I chase, coerce, convince nobody!

[katiegrl]

It's a scenario I created to point out the flaw in selective mirroring. katiegrl has since clarified her stance on mirroring.

 

 

With that being said, here is how I picture mirroring:

• Person A initiates and executes a dinner date with Person B.
  
• Person B initiates and executes a dinner date with Person A.
  
• Person A initiates some communications with Person B.
  
• Person B initiates some communications with Person A.
  
• Person A slows down communications with Person B.
  
• Person B slows down communications with Person A.
  
• Person A plans and executes a day-long outing with Person B.
  
• Person B plans and executes a day-long outing with Person A.
  

Effort matching effort from day one. Mirroring at day twenty when one person put in the majority of effort before then isn't fair.

 

You got it!!

 

However, if let's say things are flowing smoothly as what you described above, but then at date 20, HE starts initiating less. Starts giving less.

 

In turn I mirror him and start giving less.

 

HE gives 100%, I give 100%.

 

He pulls back, I pull back.

 

Equal give take, keeps things balanced and avoids one person becoming resentful for feeling he/she is giving more to the RL than their partner..

[katiegrl]

@ Jabron -- you say mirroring is deceptive and manipulating because a woman is only appearing to be not needy, when in fact she is needy.

 

So what are you suggesting? That because her nature is to be needy, she should act needy?

 

So when a guy is pulling away, instead of pulling away herself to protect herself, she should start chasing asking him for reassurance?

 

To not exercise any self-control at all.... and just have at it cuz being needy is her genuine self? Seriously dude?

 

Would you give that same advice to men when they are needy and insecure?

 

When a chick flakes, pulls away, doesn't respond to his texts or calls, that he should be genuine and real and continue to chase her, because his nature is to be needy? No self-control, just continue being his needy self, no matter what the consequences.

 

Lest he gets accused of being deceptive, manipulating and insulting. Or perhaps you only think it's deceptive, manipulating and insulting when it relates to a woman self-protecting and pulling back (mirroring his actions).

 

If so, that is about the worst advice I have ever heard on this board.

 

It also contradicts what you yourself have previously advised guys when this exact scenario occurs.

Edited June 8, 2016 by katiegrl

[deep_night]

But a person might behave in the way I described, for the reasons I described, and be perceived as "mirroring" for suspect motives.

 

I think most of us do like to ascribe motives to people. Giving out a message of "I didn't come down in the last shower! I know what you're up to..." It's really tempting. Sometimes you can get that sense of "if I don't tell this person what I think their motives here are, they'll think they've pulled one over on me."

 

But in practice, ascribing motives to people often doesn't achieve much other than a) to keep conflict going and b) fuel paranoia and mistrust. The bottom line is that we can make guesses about other people's motives, but we don't always know. And sometimes our ability to guess others' motives accurately is hindered by our own insecurities, ego needs etc.

 

Which kind of ties into this..

 

 

 

Dare I say....a pinch of hurt is not the end of the world. It doesn't need to stop a person from practising the art of emotional discipline - which is not about having no emotion, or being completely indifferent. It's about recognising emotions and managing them.

 

 

 

I think if somebody were to be turned off me on the basis that they thought I cared but was defensive - well, obviously if this were somebody I really liked then I would be upset and disappointed. However, they would not be right for me and I would not be right for them. I don't think there's anything wrong with caring, and I think that realistically people do sometimes have to wear something of a shield. So it would be better for that incompatibility to come to the surface sooner rather than later.

 

 

 

I'm still not really clear about what you and others really mean when you say "mirroring". It seems as though your interpretation of it differs from the one more traditionally employed by psychologists. Am I right in thinking that by "mirroring" you mean "going into a sulk in the hope that the other person will chase after them asking if they're okay"? If so, then then yes. That would irritate me - but it's not what I understand mirroring to mean.

 

And not pursuing somebody who seems to be taking a bit of time out isn't the same as sulking. Making a decision to expend less time and energy on somebody who isn't making much effort for you isn't the same as sulking either. It's a rational response - and it's better than continuing to make effort while storing up all kinds of resentment about it.

 

ETA - saw your previous post where you described mirroring along the lines of "waiting to see how another person behaves, and letting your own be dictated by that." Well, that sounds mainly like an extremely passive temperament. Which could indeed be annoying, but it's just how some people are. I doubt people of a less passive temperament would have the patience.

 

The term mirroring seems to have become all things to all people in this thread. What I'm getting is that various posters including Katie and me are interpreting it (for the purposes of this discussion at least) along the lines of "matching the effort you put in to the other person's." So if you find yourself making a lot of effort on another person's behalf, and you feel it's unappreciated (and you feel that way because they're not making similar efforts - eg to stay in touch, meet up or whatever) back, then you reduce the effort you're making. I think in cases where people feel their efforts are unappreciated, variants of "then reduce the effort you're making" are among the most commonly dispensed advice. And pretty sound advice too, I should have thought. You can't force other people to make more effort, but you can certainly choose to make less effort yourself - and if reducing your effort will reduce your resentment, it's a healthy action to take.

 

i think you're quite right that we tend to attach motives to people.

but manipulation doesnt only happen from bad people with sinister motives. i think it happens from good people too, but the people who are maybe quite passive and/or hesitate to confront and/or say what they feel. manipulating someone means trying to make him/her act a certain way without asking directly. because let's face it, when u mirror u usually want to send a non verbal message across. i dont think anyone mirrors people they dont care about. i think this mirroring stuff and adjusting levels of interest according to the circumstances is a good theoretical idea but in reality one can't really adjust their feelings to match someone else's behaviour. and i think most of us are sane enough to spend time or want people we actually like and value :/

[elaine567]

I think some men* play the game of "I pull back she then chases me, I feel good, I am worth chasing, I am then in control and I decide where this goes, I either remain cool and aloof and she chases me harder which is just more ego boost or I just next them as they are not worth the effort, as they are "clingy and needy".

Mirroring stops that game, hence the annoyance. He pulls back and instead of the expected ego boost, she pulls back too.

He is flummoxed, as he was supposed to be calling the shots and now he is looking at his phone every 2 seconds for a breadcrumb, in response to the breadcrumb he gave her.

So many men come on here bemoaning the fact that they treated her bad by taking her for granted and ignoring her and now she is gone they are devastated...

 

All in all it is best to not to play games with people, if interested act interested if not interested do not waste anyone's time and go pitch at someone else.

 

*some women also play this game.

[Taramere]

i think you're quite right that we tend to attach motives to people.

but manipulation doesnt only happen from bad people with sinister motives. i think it happens from good people too, but the people who are maybe quite passive and/or hesitate to confront and/or say what they feel. manipulating someone means trying to make him/her act a certain way wit

 

I think what you're referring to - expressing feelings and talking things through in a way that's not going to escalate problems - takes a lot of skill, emotional control and time. Sometimes it's better to just let strong emotions die down a little bit before discussing them. Not to mention being a bit particular about who you discuss your innermost stuff with.

 

I don't see how distancing yourself from somebody who isn't showing much interest is manipulative. It's not going to make them suddenly come running. What it might do is prevent a potential relationship from being totally sabotaged. However irritated some of the guys here might be by the thought that a woman is mirroring the effort them make, I think more people would be irritated by somebody they weren't interested in contacting them. I'm sure most people here have, at some point, had an admirer they didn't invite into their life - and whose calls they did not feel under any obligation to return. Those calls or texts, if they persist despite not being returned, are surely going to be a lot more annoying than somebody you're not particularly interested in not calling you.

 

A lot of people do "the fade" or "ghost" to indicate that they're not, or no longer (which is more dishonourable if they have at some point been involved with the person) interested. You see it discussed on here. The guy suddenly stops contacting the woman. She sends him a message, he doesn't respond...and she's not sure what to do. "Maybe he didn't get the message, maybe he's busy etc..." The common response is "he's just not that into you."

 

I'm not keen on the kneejerk "he's just not that into you" response. Because how does anybody really know? Sticking to facts, all anybody knows in that situation is that a woman has contacted a man and he hasn't responded. If he has any interest in her, there's a good chance that he'll call her at some point in the future. She's not going to sabotage the likelihood of him calling her at some future point by getting on with her life and not sending any further messages.

 

If he really is just not that into her, he will be relieved that she's not pushing it. Not calling somebody doesn't transform the non-caller into some sort of amazingly exciting love object (unless the "not called" person has suffered severe early attachment issues whereby they're only attracted to those who reject them"). What it does do is ensure that you're not contacting somebody you don't know all that well at a bad time - and therefore adding to the stressful list of "things I have to do - people I should be returning calls to". In other words, it's a good plan to avoid becoming a demand, duty or obligation at a time (early dating stage) when things should be fun.

 

I'm just not sure why people would be irritated by somebody mirroring the effort they themselves put in or why they would feel manipulated by it. I don't think it's manipulative. I would perceive it as considerate and a positive sign. So long as it's done in the spirit of maintaining a good balance, rather than being done in a resentful, grudge-bearing kind of way.

 

To me, somebody is manipulating me if they try to bully, ridicule or guilt trip me into doing something that I really don't want to do. If they're behaving in a certain way to seem more attractive...that's just normal courtship. If an admirer's efforts to seem attractive or to make you like/respect them are irritating, that admirer is not the person for you. But to define it as manipulative suggests that they're trying to get you to do something you don't want to do. In the case of distancing herself from a man who isn't showing interest, the suggestion seems to be that the woman is attempting to manipulate him into calling her when he doesn't want to.

 

There's an easy solution to that one. If you don't want to call somebody, don't call them. If you don't want to spend time with somebody...don't do it. But if this is about a guy "feeling" manipulated and annoyed because he expected a woman to call him when he ignored her for a while and she hasn't....well, if I were that woman I wouldn't be taking the "you are an annoying manipulator" accusation very seriously.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Taramere

[Shining One]

However irritated some of the guys here might be by the thought that a woman is mirroring the effort them make

I don't understand this logic either. Heck, I get irritated because so many of the women I've dated don't attempt to mirror my effort. That's why most don't make it past date 4/5 with me. The rare women who do attempt to mirror my efforts are the ones I value.

[Taramere]

I don't understand this logic either. Heck, I get irritated because so many of the women I've dated don't attempt to mirror my effort. That's why most don't make it past date 4/5 with me. The rare women who do attempt to mirror my efforts are the ones I value.

 

Right. I mean, I don't want to keep attributing motives to people because I know it's not very helpful. However, the only reasons I can think of that a A would be irritated by B mirroring the effort they put in would be

 

1) A - spoiled and entitled - used to others making efforts for them, without having to make much effort in return. Annoyed when they encounter somebody who is spoiled to the same degree, or behaves as though they are.

 

2) A - using minimal effort as a power play to signal "I don't care about this relationship as much as you do. Jump, little doggie."

 

In the case of 1, some self awareness might result if the person just never really considered the impact of their lack of effort on other people. "I don't like it when people treat me casually or expect me to do all the running. Maybe I should improve the way I treat others."

 

In the case of 2...well, it's a case of somebody not liking to get what they dish out - or being annoyed that what they dish out isn't bringing in the rewards they expected.

[Taramere]

I think some men* play the game of "I pull back she then chases me, I feel good, I am worth chasing, I am then in control and I decide where this goes, I either remain cool and aloof and she chases me harder which is just more ego boost or I just next them as they are not worth the effort, as they are "clingy and needy".

Mirroring stops that game, hence the annoyance. He pulls back and instead of the expected ego boost, she pulls back too.

He is flummoxed, as he was supposed to be calling the shots and now he is looking at his phone every 2 seconds for a breadcrumb, in response to the breadcrumb he gave her.

So many men come on here bemoaning the fact that they treated her bad by taking her for granted and ignoring her and now she is gone they are devastated...

 

All in all it is best to not to play games with people, if interested act interested if not interested do not waste anyone's time and go pitch at someone else.

 

*some women also play this game.

 

That's the push-pull technique advocated by the PUA community, right? The guy indicates interest then draws back to get the woman to chase him. It's a bit like my dog when she wants me to play. She'll drop a ball at my feet, then when I go to pick it up she'll grab it and run off - but she's glancing back at me all the time, indicating "chase me! chase me!" So I will, a bit. Because it's a fun game for both me and the dog. Part of the bond between us.

 

Games in the sense of being playful are fun. I think the trouble is that the PUA stuff is often aimed at guys who have issues with feeling angry, frustrated etc about their interactions with women. So what should be a bit of lighthearted flirtation (push/pull banter, making eye contact then looking away etc) becomes unpleasant and hostile. They've gone through life not having very good discipline over their own feelings, and having a sense of powerlessness - and maybe a pretty unwarranted sense of being "controlled" or manipulated by others - as a result. So even if some of this PUA advice intends to help people flirt and play in lighthearted ways, a guy who's in a bad place is probably going to apply the advice in hostile and fairly dysfunctional ways.

 

I think any time we believe somebody is mirroring us and we get annoyed about it, that's a sign that it's time for self examination. If our behaviour was well intentioned, or playful, or was an unconscious thing that wasn't underpinned by any particular motive we were aware of....why would we get annoyed by another person behaving similarly?

 

For me, that's the main problem of PUA "push pull" advice. It's not that I mind people "playing" with me in a lighthearted sort of way. I quite enjoy it most of the time (unless I'm in a bad mood - in which case that's my issue rather than the other person's). It's more that some people aren't really in a place where they can enter into that kind of thing in a lighthearted kind of way, rather than treating it as a serious power struggle. Which means they end up even angrier and more frustrated if the game doesn't go their way...or else contemptuous of the other person if the game does go the way they expected. It's lose/lose when something that should be fun becomes a serious power struggle.

Edited June 8, 2016 by Taramere

[nordic]

You got it!!

 

However, if let's say things are flowing smoothly as what you described above, but then at date 20, HE starts initiating less. Starts giving less.

 

In turn I mirror him and start giving less.

 

HE gives 100%, I give 100%.

 

He pulls back, I pull back.

 

Equal give take, keeps things balanced and avoids one person becoming resentful for feeling he/she is giving more to the RL than their partner..

 

none you two got it.

 

person a and person b cant mirror that way since they are hetero, which is greek for different.

 

if a man takes a woman out for a dinner date, the way she mirrors that is certainly not with more food.

[katiegrl]

none you two got it.

 

person a and person b cant mirror that way since they are hetero, which is greek for different.

 

if a man takes a woman out for a dinner date, the way she mirrors that is certainly not with more food.

 

Maybe not but she should reciprocate in her own way nevertheless.

 

Equal give and take....

[katiegrl]

I don't understand this logic either. Heck, I get irritated because so many of the women I've dated don't attempt to mirror my effort. That's why most don't make it past date 4/5 with me. The rare women who do attempt to mirror my efforts are the ones I value.

 

Shining One.... you are an anomaly, which I happen to think is a good thing.

 

But I think what Taramere was referring to are men (like Jabron) who can dish it out but can't take it.

 

They want control.... according to them, it's perfectly reasonable that they're "busy" or need space or otherwise "play games" as Jabron has admitted to enjoying, but god forbid a woman mirrors him and gives the same right back to him.

 

Now suddenly she's deceptive, manipulating and insulting. When all she was doing was mirroring HIS actions. Cracks me up. lol

 

Now suddenly they are confused ones wondering what the heck is going on, which they don't like one bit. No longer do they have full control and this ruffles many men's feathers.....lol

 

Tough tomatoes guys, you want a woman to be consistent with you, attentive to you? Be consistent with her, attentive to her.

 

Stop playing these "pull back" games hoping to intrigue her, or confuse her or whatever else you are thinking so she will chase you.

 

Won't work with many women, smart women anyway.

 

DEAL WITH IT! :rolleyes:

Edited June 8, 2016 by katiegrl

[katiegrl]

Shining One.... you are an anomaly, which I happen to think is a good thing.

 

But I think what Taramere was referring to are men (like Jabron) who can dish it out but can't take it.

 

They want control.... according to them, it's perfectly reasonable that they're "busy" or need space or otherwise "play games" as Jabron has admitted to enjoying, but god forbid a woman mirrors him and gives the same right back to him.

 

Now suddenly she's deceptive, manipulating and insulting. When all she was doing was mirroring HIS actions. Cracks me up. lol

 

Now suddenly they are confused ones wondering what the heck is going on, which they don't like one bit. No longer do they have full control and this ruffles many men's feathers.....lol

 

Tough tomatoes guys, you want a woman to be consistent with you, attentive to you? Be consistent with her, attentive to her.

 

Stop playing these "pull back" games hoping to intrigue her, or confuse her or whatever else you are thinking so she will chase you.

 

Won't work with many women, smart women anyway.

 

DEAL WITH IT! :rolleyes:

 

To add -- or maybe a guy really IS busy? Okay cool. Then I become busy. Genuinely busy.... I DO have a life you know, and am perfectly capable of filling up that life with friends and activities if a guy is "too busy" to spend time with me.

 

What I don't get is why, according to some guys, am I now the bad guy? Deceptive and manipulating.

 

For again, essentially doing exactly what HE is doing .... mirroring his behavior.

 

Makes no sense....

[Yellowteacup]

I've been married almost 6 years and I not only asked my husband on a date, but for his hand in marriage and gave him a diamond too!

[katiegrl]

I've been married almost 6 years and I not only asked my husband on a date, but for his hand in marriage and gave him a diamond too!

 

Yup my mom did the same with my dad! Married 15 years, six kids.

 

I believe it.

 

As the OP said, it's all about energy - feminine and masculine.

 

There are men who possess more feminine energy and for them (you), they prefer the woman do the pursuing.

 

In turn, they would need a woman with more masculine energy who would prefer to do the pursuing/chasing.

 

Not suggesting such men are feminine or such women are masculine... they just possess more feminine/masculine energy than their male/female counterparts.

Edited June 8, 2016 by katiegrl

[UltimatePanacea]

I've been married almost 6 years and I not only asked my husband on a date, but for his hand in marriage and gave him a diamond too!

Ok, I guess to every rule there is an exception, but while still single and dating it is safer to assume that you're not the exception, but the rule.

Obviously this topic cannot be proven to be 100% right or wrong, this is outside the realm of science, cannot be testable or refuted. This is just "Folk wisdom" but tends to be true in many cases (at least for me and people I know). It's not like we're going to test this theory by dividing women into two groups: control and manipulation, and assign them to chase and the other group not to chase their men and then report the level of dating/relationship success. This can never be done, well at least it won't be taken seriously, there is not enough empirical evidence to prove cause and effect here.

So people, let's just admit that this is common folk wisdom, just don't chase men, match their effort and everything will be peaches. If not-he's just not that into you anyway. End of debate.

[tinkerbell16]

Do what you really want, and stop letting your ego rule you.

 

A lot of these 'rules' are just training wheels. The purpose is mostly to deceive, not appearing needy.

 

How about building such a life where neediness isn't your reality instead?

 

Same with the PUA crap of "don't text after a date", or any of that other nonsense.

 

It's ultimately shortsighted.

 

 

 

She mentioned it about 2 or 3 times as some sort of foundation for dating, and I addressed it - no one else did.

 

Cue rationalisations.

 

- Elaine: justification

- Katie: reframe (busy)

- UP: reframe (self-love)

- Candie and yourself: flipping the script onto me

 

- Buddist: surprisingly straight

 

 

 

 

Disagree, mirroring typically is a way to get the other person to invest.

 

Hence why the OP thinks it'll get guys on the chase.

 

 

 

If a man mirrored the effort you were making for him, likely nothing would get done.

 

We'd start turning into Japan.

 

Mirroring is really pathetic for a man. Can't imagine a guy using this as a crutch.

 

 

 

Hypocrisy annoys me far more than mirroring ever has/would/will.

 

It's one thing to eat crap, it's another thing to pretend it's chocolate cake.

 

I mean, come on. This is just ridiculous at times. How is anyone supposed to improve without self-awareness?

 

How can the OP improve when she can't even accept the basic reality of her own favorite technique?

 

 

 

I think it would be fairer, more honourable and less manipulative if we called a spade a spade.

 

We'd need to start there. We're a long way off. I'm not just talking about this thread either.

 

But to answer your question: no.

 

Jabron, in the "dance/game" when a guy goes from heavy communication and incredible dates then goes 4 days MIA, then texts like nothings up... what is the best way to respond?

[Jabron1]

Shining One.... you are an anomaly, which I happen to think is a good thing.

 

But I think what Taramere was referring to are men (like Jabron) who can dish it out but can't take it.

 

They want control.... according to them, it's perfectly reasonable that they're "busy" or need space or otherwise "play games" as Jabron has admitted to enjoying, but god forbid a woman mirrors him and gives the same right back to him.

 

Now suddenly she's deceptive, manipulating and insulting. When all she was doing was mirroring HIS actions. Cracks me up. lol

 

Now suddenly they are confused ones wondering what the heck is going on, which they don't like one bit. No longer do they have full control and this ruffles many men's feathers.....lol

 

Tough tomatoes guys, you want a woman to be consistent with you, attentive to you? Be consistent with her, attentive to her.

 

Stop playing these "pull back" games hoping to intrigue her, or confuse her or whatever else you are thinking so she will chase you.

 

Won't work with many women, smart women anyway.

 

DEAL WITH IT! :rolleyes:

 

 

Listen, If dating were a boxing match, the mirroring girl would be the counter-puncher. The one that just jabs and tries to win by decision. It's an irritant.

 

I would be Mike Tyson

 

Jabron, in the "dance/game" when a guy goes from heavy communication and incredible dates then goes 4 days MIA, then texts like nothings up... what is the best way to respond?

 

Confront/ignore/just have fun.

 

Depends on what you want, I suppose.

[tinkerbell16]

Listen, If dating were a boxing match, the mirroring girl would be the counter-puncher. The one that just jabs and tries to win by decision. It's an irritant.

 

I would be Mike Tyson

 

 

 

Confront/ignore/just have fun.

 

Depends on what you want, I suppose.

 

If I have to use mirroring for anything other than checking my lipstick then this grow woman is moving on. Ain't no body got time for ridiculous games

[BronzeAgeJaeger217]

Sounds like something women are adamant about

[Aedra]

Surely there is a difference between being assertive and an initiator and sheer desperation and pushiness? I suspect some women are far too desperate to get a man and give off that vibe.

[LeslieWalsh]

I've been told since the age of 14, that a women should never chase a man, because its "desperate." This really sucks as a woman though, I just have to wait around until some man notices me and the majority of the time, the ones that do notice me, I don't find them attractive at all. Women can't pick a man and pursue him, we have to make that first step of being seen and available and make the man come to you.

[BronzeAgeJaeger217]

I've been told since the age of 14, that a women should never chase a man, because its "desperate." This really sucks as a woman though, I just have to wait around until some man notices me and the majority of the time, the ones that do notice me, I don't find them attractive at all. Women can't pick a man and pursue him, we have to make that first step of being seen and available and make the man come to you.

I'm guessing it sucks for both because a lot of guys including me don't enjoy being the one's to risk rejection all the time