Looking for others perspectives.

[DKT3]

Oran, does it really matter if he loves/loved you.

 

Im guessing he did on some level, but remember he also just have loved/love his wife.

 

Just don't confuse almost leaving his bw as a sign. Some times its seems easier to run and hide then to stand and accept the consequences of your actions.

 

Most importantly this is something that I like to say often in this section, most men don't have a need to justify having an affair so it rarely changes how they view their wives.

[AlwaysGrowing]

Oran,

 

I imagine it was your prior inquisitiveness about your/any FoO questions of self, that have put you were you are now. Because you are so well ahead of the game, some never put a thought or energy into self.

 

I am a FIRM believer of self. Knowing oneself, acknowledging self, finding our weaknesses and shoring them up, knowing our strengths and when they are actually a weakness to us, guiding our ship, accepting course corrections, etc.

 

 

For true empowerment comes from within. Once we allow ourselves to repair our damaged bits, we gain a contentment, a quiet strength of self....because I is in charge.

 

The relationship boards are riddled with folks who react to life because they lack the internal knowledge/worth of self to respond from a position of "I".

[Oran]

Oran, does it really matter if he loves/loved you.

 

Im guessing he did on some level, but remember he also just have loved/love his wife.

 

Just don't confuse almost leaving his bw as a sign. Some times its seems easier to run and hide then to stand and accept the consequences of your actions.

 

Most importantly this is something that I like to say often in this section, most men don't have a need to justify having an affair so it rarely changes how they view their wives.

 

Hi DKT3, thanks for your post. OneLov in their post, for me, just put the whole question of did/does he love me, to bed *no pun intended*. So, I'm really grateful to them for that Nailed it.

[Oran]

Thanks for your post AlwaysGrowing,

 

I think I realise now that what I need to do next is take action around what I understand about myself and my family. That's what's been missing.

 

It's good to be able to survive, but it would be better to flourish.

[Onlywhenitrains]

OP,

 

You seem to be at the stage where you are trying to find meaning in the relationship in hopes to achieve a sense of closure. Because the relationship was riddled with ambiguity, you are now trying to find meaning for the present by looking into the past.

 

The truth is you DID share a connection and those feelings did/do exist. But that connection resulted in a socially inappropriate relationship. Because of his unwillingness to make the relationship legitimate, it had to end. Not because of YOU, it ended because of HIS (in)action(s). Fear is a much stronger emotion than love.

 

IMO, the key to healing in this situation is being able to hold two opposing ideas as truths--"it" was, but "it" wasn't. The feelings were very real and legitimate but the relationship was not. But one truth does not invalid the other; they can both exist. I would work with a therapist that can help you with the process. Also, I would develop a support system and allow adequate time to grieve.

 

We've all been there in one way or another. It's ok to feel loss, and I for one will verify that what you have experienced is a loss. Do not feel ashamed or invalidated. Keep posting and try to not get boggled down in finding "meaning." I wish you the best.

 

OL

 

THIS!

 

Thank you, OneLov! I really needed to read this today.

[Disillusioned_2011]

Oran,

 

I imagine it was your prior inquisitiveness about your/any FoO questions of self, that have put you were you are now. Because you are so well ahead of the game, some never put a thought or energy into self.

 

I am a FIRM believer of self. Knowing oneself, acknowledging self, finding our weaknesses and shoring them up, knowing our strengths and when they are actually a weakness to us, guiding our ship, accepting course corrections, etc.

 

 

For true empowerment comes from within. Once we allow ourselves to repair our damaged bits, we gain a contentment, a quiet strength of self....because I is in charge.

 

The relationship boards are riddled with folks who react to life because they lack the internal knowledge/worth of self to respond from a position of "I".

 

 

I know myself pretty well.....and sorry for the tj but even if you do know yourself well and if you know where those issues are coming from, what if you can't turn anything into anything positive - ever? I've analyzed myself to death, I know why I pick whom I pick, etc etc - but what it all comes down to is that in reality I pick the wrong partners for the wrong reasons, and I don't learn, I just yearn (for them to be what they pretended to be, or to keep at least 2 of their 1,000 promises, and I can never understand why they won't), and after the breakup I end up so depressed I can't even breathe. Let alone work on myself......again - sorry for the TJ, but I feel like many OWs are victims of their own personalities, while at the same time they would cut their right arms off to be different. No counseling and no meds can help.

[Oran]

I know myself pretty well.....and sorry for the tj but even if you do know yourself well and if you know where those issues are coming from, what if you can't turn anything into anything positive - ever? I've analyzed myself to death, I know why I pick whom I pick, etc etc - but what it all comes down to is that in reality I pick the wrong partners for the wrong reasons, and I don't learn, I just yearn (for them to be what they pretended to be, or to keep at least 2 of their 1,000 promises, and I can never understand why they won't), and after the breakup I end up so depressed I can't even breathe. Let alone work on myself......again - sorry for the TJ, but I feel like many OWs are victims of their own personalities, while at the same time they would cut their right arms off to be different. No counseling and no meds can help.

 

I don't think just knowing yourself is enough, that's only the first stage. You then have to actively do something with that knowledge.

 

I don't believe that I am a victim of my personality. We are constantly making ourselves through what we think of ourselves. I know it probably sounds like a cliche, but if you believe that you can't change, then you make that a reality for yourself.

[SweetiePi]

Hi Oran. This is exactly what I have been seeing as well. He works himself to death. I can see why his W has a full social life of her own. I can also see the things he did and expectations he has of her that leads to her being cranky most the time (yes, I know her and she is like that). He provokes her and has expectations that no woman could meet. He does not see his contribution to the failings of their marriage.

 

 

heartwhole, my AP would talk about his M and how his BS had a social life which revolved around bars and clubs, which wasn't his scene.

 

During the 4 months that I was living with him, he was doing his 'dream job' and we would have evenings together and one free day together during the week. Very quickly the evenings would be taken up with catching up with a work related friend, or working additional hours. I began to see exactly why BS had eventually developed what came to be a very active social life of her own, through loneliness. It was unsettling to see the behavior in AP which had contributed to BSs behavior in the M.

[SweetiePi]

OneLov. This might be the most wise thing I have read all day. It is the whole "it is what it is" thing. Yes, those connections and feelings are there, not that they are appropriate. For me it has been about coming to the understanding of "radical acceptance". Not putting the should and could on things, but accepting you do have these emotions, feelings and it is okay. Realize them and let them fade away.

 

 

The truth is you DID share a connection and those feelings did/do exist. But that connection resulted in a socially inappropriate relationship. Because of his unwillingness to make the relationship legitimate, it had to end. Not because of YOU, it ended because of HIS (in)action(s). Fear is a much stronger emotion than love.

 

IMO, the key to healing in this situation is being able to hold two opposing ideas as truths--"it" was, but "it" wasn't. The feelings were very real and legitimate but the relationship was not. But one truth does not invalid the other; they can both exist. I would work with a therapist that can help you with the process. Also, I would develop a support system and allow adequate time to grieve.

 

OL

[Oran]

Hi Oran. This is exactly what I have been seeing as well. He works himself to death. I can see why his W has a full social life of her own. I can also see the things he did and expectations he has of her that leads to her being cranky most the time (yes, I know her and she is like that). He provokes her and has expectations that no woman could meet. He does not see his contribution to the failings of their marriage.

 

Yikes! It's a pretty sobering experience, isn't it.

[ShatteredLady]

The very first night that I met my H 26 years ago I felt the most amazing connection. We had so very much in common. He was just coming out of a relationship & he was so vulnerable & expressive. He was empathic, compassionate & so open. It was truly amazing! We talked all night long & watched the sun rise in each others arms.

 

We probably have even more in common now. We still have the same quirky sense of humor, taste etc.

 

Something that took me a while to realize is how conflict avoidant he is. If he ever accepts that he's wrong he relies on deprecating, self loathing to avoid conversation or introspection. He doesn't grow, he avoids.

 

Even 26 years later I recognized the oh so familiar vulnerability in his emails to his OW. He sounded so introspective & compassionate. I've seen it in life long friends. A person mourning their own self destructive agony & lamenting the loss of a relationship sounds so deep & sensitive....BECAUSE they're critisizing their partner & selling their sob story!

 

What a new person doesn't see is the truth of living with someone year after year. Someone who never accepts responsibility, will NEVER discuss problems & is even less likely to try to fix them.

 

Come d-day he had lots to say. He was open & expressive about all of the OW's faults, manipulations & pain inflicted on HIM. He has so very much empathy FOR HIMSELF! Sadly he's still incapable of recognizing & feeling the agony that he inflicted on ME.

[13Hearts]

13Hearts always write with clarity, intelligence and honesty. She tells it like it is, and this post pretty much sums it up., In fact, she took about two sentences to say what it took me three paragraphs to convey!

 

LOL Jenkins. Very kind of you. Many have said I am too blunt and I hurt people's feelings with my bluntness and straightforwardness. Sorry about that. I don't know how to be any other way

[jenkins95]

LOL Jenkins. Very kind of you. Many have said I am too blunt and I hurt people's feelings with my bluntness and straightforwardness. Sorry about that. I don't know how to be any other way

 

Don't ever change 13H - you are just perfect as you are!!

 

I can't speak for everyone, but bluntness and straightforwardness is exactly what I need. And you apply it with warmth, humour and kindness.

 

Thank you !

[HeCantBreakMe]

heartwhole, my AP would talk about his M and how his BS had a social life which revolved around bars and clubs, which wasn't his scene.

 

During the 4 months that I was living with him, he was doing his 'dream job' and we would have evenings together and one free day together during the week. Very quickly the evenings would be taken up with catching up with a work related friend, or working additional hours. I began to see exactly why BS had eventually developed what came to be a very active social life of her own, through loneliness. It was unsettling to see the behavior in AP which had contributed to BSs behavior in the M.

 

All during the A, the story of Bluebeard was in my mind - everything is ok, as long as you don't look in the locked room, as soon as you look in the locked room, you become what is in the locked room. Does that make sense?

 

Wow I think every OW should read this post. This puts into perspective so much for me and I am so thankful I didn't really get what I thought I wanted. Thank you Oran for sharing your story!

 

Hugs for you right now. Be strong

[SweetiePi]

Yes, very sobering to see this once the fluffy feelings have faded. I just chose to ignore it before because I was thinking with my heart and not my head

 

 

Yikes! It's a pretty sobering experience, isn't it.

[Oran]

Come d-day he had lots to say. He was open & expressive about all of the OW's faults, manipulations & pain inflicted on HIM. He has so very much empathy FOR HIMSELF! Sadly he's still incapable of recognizing & feeling the agony that he inflicted on ME.

 

ShatteredLady, that must be very difficult to experience. I think I mentioned in my initial post that when my father was dying, my partner at the time left me a week before my father's death. That was after he had taken a 6 week holiday across the globe to visit 2 different friends. When he returned, I was distraught during this period, my father had dementia and had been starving himself, my SO realised that he'd done something awful. So, he blamed me. Then dumped me.

 

4 months after that, trying to find some closure to the relationship I asked to meet up and speak to him. And do you know what he said? DO YOU KNOW WHAT HE SAID? *I'm still hopping up and down about this when I remember* He said - y'know, that was a really difficult time for me. For ME. I f*cking kid you NOT.

 

In hindsight, I think he knew in his heart of hearts what he had done. He had been one God Almighty selfish d*ck, and that didn't correlate with the image of how he saw himself. So rather than reconsider how he saw himself and take responsibility for his actions, he simply projected all the badness onto me. I think when he was with his friends abroad, he was quite anxious, which upset them, I (and my father) were vicariously ruining their reunion. So between them all, they decided to blame me.

 

My xSO initially comes across as a very emotional, intuitive, gentle man. But I was left thinking, like you, this man only has sympathy and care for his own feelings.

 

I find my xSO's comments almost darkly comic now. You couldn't write that stuff. I wonder how he could have been so inadequate.

 

So, those were the thoughts that your comments triggered in my own experience. It's a pretty extreme example of lack of empathy and I'm aware that I mean no direct correlation between my prior situation and yours. Does that make sense? I feel as though I grabbed your post, ran towards the cliff and jumped off.

[Oran]

Yes, very sobering to see this once the fluffy feelings have faded. I just chose to ignore it before because I was thinking with my heart and not my head

 

SweetiePi, I think that's a really important idea, about ignoring what you know and feel to be true. I have felt split in two during the A. I questioned myself as to what it was, I knew my AP was lying and cheating. I knew he was two different people. But really, the important realization was that I'd become two different people. I had to lie to myself to maintain the delusion and justify my position within it.

[heartwhole]

heartwhole, my AP would talk about his M and how his BS had a social life which revolved around bars and clubs, which wasn't his scene.

 

During the 4 months that I was living with him, he was doing his 'dream job' and we would have evenings together and one free day together during the week. Very quickly the evenings would be taken up with catching up with a work related friend, or working additional hours. I began to see exactly why BS had eventually developed what came to be a very active social life of her own, through loneliness. It was unsettling to see the behavior in AP which had contributed to BSs behavior in the M.

 

All during the A, the story of Bluebeard was in my mind - everything is ok, as long as you don't look in the locked room, as soon as you look in the locked room, you become what is in the locked room. Does that make sense?

 

I'm glad you got to have that insight into how a real future with him would have gone. I have read so many OW posts wondering why the cruel, distant, controlling BW won't just set the sainted MM free to be with her. I think if they got a chance to have a day to day relationship with the MM, in most cases, they would realize the qualities that made him be OK with having an affair carry over into the rest of his life too . . . selfishness, short-sightedness, poor boundaries, poor coping skills, poor judgment, etc. And meanwhile, the BW has been putting up with all of this in good faith. It's not a fair. I have made sure to reject that dynamic and expect real growth if my husband wants the honor of staying married to me. I never felt like I wasn't the one with the choice here. And in truth, it so often is the BW who really has the choice. OW can't understand why MM won't leave such supposedly unpalatable situations. I think you are right to suspect that it's not as unpalatable as he lets you believe. Otherwise, he'd take his freedom and ride off into the sunset with you.

[DKT3]

SweetiePi, I think that's a really important idea, about ignoring what you know and feel to be true. I have felt split in two during the A. I questioned myself as to what it was, I knew my AP was lying and cheating. I knew he was two different people. But really, the important realization was that I'd become two different people. I had to lie to myself to maintain the delusion and justify my position within it.

 

This is right on the money...this also acts as a bonding agent of affairs, seeing the ap for who they really are, forces you to do the same internally . You become bonded over this small detail, admitting the ap was/is a sh%tty person means.......

[ShatteredLady]

Oh Oran I have the same repeated, BLOCK CAPITAL, exclamation point!!!!!!!! Experiences!! It drives you nutz doesn't it?

 

Yep! I had life saving surgery, so stressful for HIM! My spine had started to collapse leaving me in 24/7 pain. Do you know how hard that was FOR HIM?? All of that with a little one at school & a preschooler toddling around. Can you imagine the stress of watching them while your sick wife lays in bed for a couple of hours at the weekend to catch-up on sleep? Ugh!!

 

I'm just venting & having a rant. He is trying hard now. He was very stressed & 'lost the plot' for a while back there. I just with people would place blame where it's deserved.

 

Have you read-up on cognitive dissonance? Interesting!

 

 

Off subject - Interesting fact....

 

Many years ago I toured a maximum security criminal hospital for work. (The kind of place they have serial killers, Yorkshire Ripper etc). I was allowed to visit (with protection) all of the different security levels of the women's hospital but only the lower security male sections.

 

I questioned this & the doctors said its because 'generally' women punish & hurt themselves, men turn the rage at others. In the hospital for the criminally insane the men posed a far greater risk to staff & visitors.

 

Obviously that's no strict rule & there are many exceptions but it was general enough to set the 'rules' in the hospital.

 

I've spent my life working on it but I'm a natural people pleaser to a fault. My instinct is to take all the blame myself & excuse others with often convoluted reasoning.

 

I often wonder how many OW & reconciling BS's are the same?

Edited June 11, 2016 by ShatteredLady

[SweetiePi]

I feel the same way, like being split into 2 people. I didn't know this side and never want to again. How could I overlook these things and allow myself to make these compromises? After Tuesday night and what another girl we play sports with told me I was livid. Pushed me right over the edge to be seeing this slimy side of him. He had the nerve to say to me that I am special to him. pfft. I am no more special than anyone else in his life.

 

 

SweetiePi, I think that's a really important idea, about ignoring what you know and feel to be true. I have felt split in two during the A. I questioned myself as to what it was, I knew my AP was lying and cheating. I knew he was two different people. But really, the important realization was that I'd become two different people. I had to lie to myself to maintain the delusion and justify my position within it.

[RecoveringSlowly]

He is a coward. This should be obvious.

 

He didn't want to leave his wife, but he was to cowardly to deal with the problems in his relationship, so he took up with you.

 

He left to be with you, but was to much of a coward to tell his wife and children about you and start a life.

 

His wife figured it out, confronted him, and he is to much of a coward to deal with the reality of a divorce, so he went back.

 

Cheating is an act of cowardice and emotional immaturity. I cannot understand why you are surprised.

 

Move on. Find a man that isn't a coward.

[Oran]

He is a coward. This should be obvious.

 

He didn't want to leave his wife, but he was to cowardly to deal with the problems in his relationship, so he took up with you.

 

He left to be with you, but was to much of a coward to tell his wife and children about you and start a life.

 

His wife figured it out, confronted him, and he is to much of a coward to deal with the reality of a divorce, so he went back.

 

Cheating is an act of cowardice and emotional immaturity. I cannot understand why you are surprised.

 

Move on. Find a man that isn't a coward.

 

RecoveringSlowly

 

Thanks for your post. As I said in a previous post, OneLov totally nailed the 'does he/did he love me, why did that happen' questions that I have had in this process. As I also mentioned in another post I am happily NC. The issue is not him, as I said in a previous post, 'It's not my job to fix him - it's his job'. My job is to reflect on my behavior, my history and to move forwards with my life, with a focus that is hopefully broader than hunting for a man, sans cowardice.

 

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

[Oran]

This is right on the money...this also acts as a bonding agent of affairs, seeing the ap for who they really are, forces you to do the same internally . You become bonded over this small detail, admitting the ap was/is a sh%tty person means.......

 

Hi DKT3, Thanks for your post. I agree with some of what you say. I think the blame game is part of the A process. It's easier to shift blame than to sit with the real discomfort of colluding in damaging behavior. Yep. Agree with that. However, in shedding the illusions/delusions, I acknowledge that those delusions were created and maintained by my AP, AND ME. I think simply turning the finger on the AP and claiming them to be a sh*tty person is just a reconfiguration of the blame game.

 

I met and spoke with BS. While I understand she is hurt and angry and the myriad of emotions that she must be feeling, I think we both came away from the experience realizing that neither one of us was 'bad' in some kind of fatal flaw of personality way. And I don't believe that about AP either.

[Oran]

I feel the same way, like being split into 2 people. I didn't know this side and never want to again. How could I overlook these things and allow myself to make these compromises? After Tuesday night and what another girl we play sports with told me I was livid. Pushed me right over the edge to be seeing this slimy side of him. He had the nerve to say to me that I am special to him. pfft. I am no more special than anyone else in his life.

 

I think what really stood out in your post was the question, 'How could I overlook these things and allow myself to make these compromises?'. I have been asking myself the exact same question. When I moved beyond using the question as a means of flaying myself, why, why, WHY? I realized that I could learn something useful. I bargained with my 'self' in the A because he offered something that I wanted, the possibility of a home and a family. So, I can move forwards knowing that is something that I want. I'm clearer about my future because of that.