Looking for others perspectives.

[heartwhole]

Given your xMM's history of conflict-avoidance and dishonesty, it's no surprise that he is not being forthright with BW. It would be a surprise if he were.

 

It's not your responsibility to help them navigate the reconciliation process, so I think no response is best, unless you want to apologize for your part. But I would guess you are not ready to do that yet as you're so recently out of the A.

[elaine567]

In one of exAPs falling outs, his best friend claimed that in the end people just acquiesced to exAPs wishes, and that rang a dark bell for me at the time. I am angry and fired up. But I need to be smart about making the best move for me that leaves me with as little future aggravation as possible.

 

I suppose you may never, ever see those people again, so

probably no point in poking the hornet's nest.

[Lady Hamilton]

Since it seems he has a violent streak, I'd say the best course of action would be to block them all and not worry about the email.

 

Last words and name clearing is all well and good, but if doing so leaves you open to retaliation, let it go. It's simply not worth it to engage either of them if if invites further entanglements.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Lady Hamilton

[Oran]

Given your xMM's history of conflict-avoidance and dishonesty, it's no surprise that he is not being forthright with BW. It would be a surprise if he were.

 

It's not your responsibility to help them navigate the reconciliation process, so I think no response is best, unless you want to apologize for your part. But I would guess you are not ready to do that yet as you're so recently out of the A.

 

heartwhole, one of the things that I used to tell myself when someone was being an a-hole with me is 'nothing exists in isolation'. There are patterns in behavior. If he was lying to her, OF COURSE he was lying to me. If he was cheating with me, in all likelihood he had cheated before. The reality is that he has kept his initial A secret for 15 years, she never suspected a thing. That is someone who knows how to compartmentalize and justify their behavior. He actually told me that former OW would contact him now and again and say 'remember the good times '. When he told me that he still loved his BS and I left, I said to him 'and I'm not going to be texting you reminders of the "good times". He actually had the temerity to be offended by this.

 

No, I'm not ready to apologize for my part in the A. Will exAP ever apologize to the man I was in a relationship with after I left him? I don't think so.

[Oran]

Since it seems he has a violent streak, I'd say the best course of action would be to block them all and not worry about the email.

 

Last words and name clearing is all well and good, but if doing so leaves you open to retaliation, let it go. It's simply not worth it to engage either of them if if invites further entanglements.

ExAP would never be violent as such, but he is-was very manipulative. I've just discovered that when he and I got back together, he contacted the single man that I left him for, telling him that we were in a relationship again, and warning him to stay away from me. He contacted him several times after this. I've just discovered this in the last few days.

 

I also discovered that it was not only my boss that he contacted at my place of work, but other colleagues also.

[Lady Hamilton]

Yeah, bye Felicia.

 

Not worth whatever you pay to your ISP to send him anything.

 

Block them all, let them figure their lives out.

 

So he sold her a line to get back in the house that made you look like the bad guy. Let him sing whatever song he wants as long as it keeps him too busy to bother you. You weren't going to be buds with her anyway.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Lady Hamilton

[Lobe]

ExAP would never be violent as such, but he is-was very manipulative. I've just discovered that when he and I got back together, he contacted the single man that I left him for, telling him that we were in a relationship again, and warning him to stay away from me. He contacted him several times after this. I've just discovered this in the last few days.

 

I also discovered that it was not only my boss that he contacted at my place of work, but other colleagues also.

 

What a piece. If you don't think it would cause you to face further retaliation I suggest you merge the note I crafted with the one LH did and hit send, then block/route to spam both of their email addresses. Good riddance!

 

Dear Betrayed Wifey:

 

Please know that I have no intention of allowing your husband back into my life. I apologize for being the reason he deceived you, but you actually need to sort the "truth" out with him as I've been a victim of his lies for as long as you have.

 

I am moving on and no longer wish to have any contact with your husband, and I have asked him to honour that going forward as he has not in the past. Rest assured, any attempts on his behalf to rope me back in will be forwarded to you at this address. I hope you are able to heal your marriage and yourself.

 

I suggest this book for you both, available for free download here:

 

[How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair: A Compact Manual for the Unfaithful by Linda J. MacDonald]

 

I am CCing your Wayward spouse as well so that you both have the same information.

 

Married Man,

 

My complicity in your lies ends here.

 

I have repeatedly asked for no contact and I really need that respected. This is now the 3rd time I've ended this affair and asked to not be contacted. I will not allow this to escalate as it did the last time, where you intruded into my life to attempt to sabotage my job and chase off the man I was in a relationship with by contacting them directly.

 

I really need you to get this is over. I want you to finally get that, when I broke up with you, I needed my life back and it wasn't an invitation for you to try and break the boundaries I had set between us.

 

Whatever version of events you told others is very clearly different from what actually happened and I won't be a party to that deceit anymore.

 

It is over. Respect my wishes. I made clear before, I don't want to talk to you or about our relationship anymore.

 

Thanks,

 

Oran.

[Lady Hamilton]

If dump the link to the book. It comes off as patronizing and insulting to presume to give advice to the BS on how she can save her marriage post-affair, courtesy of the OW.

 

I'd cut the part out about being a victim of his. True or not, she doesn't care, and it minimizes her hurt. The letter is meant to tell her the OP is outtie, not to ask BW to push over on the cross because OP wants up there too.

 

Imagine a thief breaking into your house, leaving a book that says "How to recover after being robbed" and an apology that includes a "things are so hard for me now too."

 

Personally, since he's one to seek revenge, I'd say it's best to just let them be. Either BW will figure it out or she won't. Either way, since OP wants out and done with the lot of them, it isn't her issue.

 

If he wasn't such a revenge-minded person, a letter with thinly veiled parting shots would be fine, but I'm ambivalent as to if its worth it if it means he's now going to re-insert himself in her life to get revenge. Last thing she needs to do is manage his crazy. That energy is better spent focusing on her.

[SweetiePi]

Tempting to reply and set the record straight, but I wouldn't reply. The only reason I suggest this is because he has shown in the past he will go to great lengths to contact all these people at your work and the man you were trying to date. Delete it and let her deal with the manipulative idiot she married.

 

 

My question is this -

 

 

 

Do I just ignore the e-mail.

 

 

Or do I forward the e-mail to exAP and cc BS into it, so that she realizes that she is simply communicating with him when she tries to e-mail me?

 

 

I have no intention of communicating further with either exAP or BS, but wonder is creating this circular forwarding of emails will make her stop.

[Onlywhenitrains]

Oran - given his past behaviour, my advice is to just ignore it and let it go. It would open the door for further back and forth communication that will resolve nothing, and add more A reminders to your healing process. Let them sort their life on they own and how they want. My vote is - take the high road. Don't look back.

[HeCantBreakMe]

Yeah, bye Felicia.

 

Not worth whatever you pay to your ISP to send him anything.

 

Block them all, let them figure their lives out.

 

So he sold her a line to get back in the house that made you look like the bad guy. Let him sing whatever song he wants as long as it keeps him too busy to bother you. You weren't going to be buds with her anyway.

 

Heeheeh - Bye Felicia!

 

Agreed DON't email back! I love Lobe's response but I also think you will be adding fuel to their fire. Stop, Block and ROLL!

 

Block them all - change your phone number, set your computer on fire and get the hell out of town! Leave these two to their crazy ways. I am guessing he will have another AP soon and this BS will find someone else to torment and he can wreck someone else life.

[Lobe]

Stop, Block and ROLL!

 

:laugh:

[Oran]

I'd cut the part out about being a victim of his. True or not, she doesn't care, and it minimizes her hurt. The letter is meant to tell her the OP is outtie, not to ask BW to push over on the cross because OP wants up there too.

 

I've been thinking a lot about projection, deflection, blame and guilt in this whole mess, and the phrase 'to ask BW to push over on the cross because OP wants up there too' triggered a lot of thoughts. I've been trying to map out some of the positioning that happens in relation to this, so that I can be aware of what I am doing in my own thinking.

 

AP+OP project guilt onto BS (bonds the A) - there is so much written here about the delusions that have to be maintained in order to facilitate an A.

 

BS+WP project blame onto OP (bonds the M) - in one recovery blog I have read both the BS and WP now call the other woman 'pig ****' which I find quite disturbing but I understand that it is a way of distancing and minimizing the OW; I also understand that it is a reversal of how the BS might have felt - BS+WP against the OP instead of AP+OP against the BS.

 

BS (OP) project blame onto WP/exAP (BS/OW victims of WP/AP) - again in the recovery blog that I was reading, the BS recounted the message from exOW which outed her husbands A, OW signed off the bombshell with a line something like 'I hope we can both move on and find men that are deserving of us'.

 

WP/AP projects blame onto BS (OP) (WP/AP projects blame onto BS (OP) as they can never fulfill the needs of WP/AP, can never love them enough, can never make them better) - I think for some WP/AP, possibly the serial A folks, this is a very real position whereby they are looking to be fixed by ANOther, rather than doing the work themselves. I also think it's a position that most As go through, in the early stages where the AP thinks the OP is the answer to their problems. And at the end, where the AP realizes that the OP is not the answer, and either 'wakes up' and chooses to work on their M and themselves, or 'moves on' and finds the next AP to salve their wound.

[Oran]

WP/AP projects blame onto BS (OP) (WP/AP projects blame onto BS (OP) as they can never fulfill the needs of WP/AP, can never love them enough, can never make them better) - I think for some WP/AP, possibly the serial A folks, this is a very real position whereby they are looking to be fixed by ANOther, rather than doing the work themselves. I also think it's a position that most As go through, in the early stages where the AP thinks the OP is the answer to their problems. And at the end, where the AP realizes that the OP is not the answer, and either 'wakes up' and chooses to work on their M and themselves, or 'moves on' and finds the next AP to salve their wound.

I think this was a real mechanism in the A with my exAP. One of the things that he used to say was that he just wanted to be loved as much as he loved. I remember an early conversation with AP when I was confused by the sensation that he was 2 people, I had it right from the beginning before there were any shenanigans involved, pre-EA, pre-PA. He was two people somehow. And as our relationship unfolded I was idealized and his BW was devalued. I was all good. She was all bad.

I knew this wasn't true, and was uncomfortable with the ideal that no-one could ever live up to. I didn't want to be on a pedestal, it didn't seem like there was any possibility of real love there, only the possibility of losing the fragile fantasy that was being projected on to me.

I think the whole idealize-devalue mechanism is something that exAP does. That is why when I left the A and began a legitimate R, exAP was out to destroy me, or place me back on the pedestal.

To truly reconcile with BS, I know that to a degree all WSs devalue the OP, but from my previous experience of exAPs 'devaluation', I am concerned.

[Oran]

I know I'm a bit post crazy at the moment, but these last 9 days have been the first time in 3 years that I have not had constant communication from my AP at the time, and tbh things are falling into place like a row of connect 4 in my head.

 

During our last conversations AP told me that when DDay came and he confessed to BS that he had been having an affair for 3 years, when he had asked her if she had ever had to worry about him straying in the past, he recounted with pride that she'd said she had never had to worry.

 

But this couldn't have been pride in the fact that, up until he met me, he'd been faithful. He hadn't. He was simply proud that she BELIEVED that she'd had nothing to worry about.

[lemondrop21]

I know I'm a bit post crazy at the moment, but these last 9 days have been the first time in 3 years that I have not had constant communication from my AP at the time, and tbh things are falling into place like a row of connect 4 in my head.

 

During our last conversations AP told me that when DDay came and he confessed to BS that he had been having an affair for 3 years, when he had asked her if she had ever had to worry about him straying in the past, he recounted with pride that she'd said she had never had to worry.

 

But this couldn't have been pride in the fact that, up until he met me, he'd been faithful. He hadn't. He was simply proud that she BELIEVED that she'd had nothing to worry about.

Um. That's really disturbing.

[Oran]

Um. That's really disturbing.

Agreed, lemondrop21. I think he has lied for so long, he actually believes it himself. And/or he feels a sense of pride in his 'mask' being believed.

[immokk]

I know I'm a bit post crazy at the moment, but these last 9 days have been the first time in 3 years that I have not had constant communication from my AP at the time, and tbh things are falling into place like a row of connect 4 in my head.

 

During our last conversations AP told me that when DDay came and he confessed to BS that he had been having an affair for 3 years, when he had asked her if she had ever had to worry about him straying in the past, he recounted with pride that she'd said she had never had to worry.

 

But this couldn't have been pride in the fact that, up until he met me, he'd been faithful. He hadn't. He was simply proud that she BELIEVED that she'd had nothing to worry about.

 

Oh God... This is kind of horrid.

 

I think it's okay to be post happy. It's after midnight here and I'm going bonkers so on here...

[immokk]

Thinking about your post, Oran, and about the other thread in which they discuss the blaming of the AP...

 

 

It always bothers me, I think I understand but I think if, like in your above post they both take to name calling... it makes me feel a little sick. I think because it's like... by blaming the other party the WS gets (almost) a pass. If they bond over the bad other person, they can forget the WS's behaviour.

 

As much as I'd love to think myself an irresistible temptress, I'm not and this was not my behaviour towards xMM.

 

I was vulnerable. He showed me caring, affection, closeness I had long lost in my (just ended) marriage.

 

He pursued me, although I did myself no credit in not resisting.

 

Anyway, if I were a BS, I honestly don't know if I could forgive. I have been the OW and see how MM behaved and... well. There you go.

 

And if I did try to forgive I would expect him to accept FULL culpability even if I accepted my own failings in our relationship (as I did in my marriage).

[ladydesigner]

I know I'm a bit post crazy at the moment, but these last 9 days have been the first time in 3 years that I have not had constant communication from my AP at the time, and tbh things are falling into place like a row of connect 4 in my head.

 

During our last conversations AP told me that when DDay came and he confessed to BS that he had been having an affair for 3 years, when he had asked her if she had ever had to worry about him straying in the past, he recounted with pride that she'd said she had never had to worry.

 

But this couldn't have been pride in the fact that, up until he met me, he'd been faithful. He hadn't. He was simply proud that she BELIEVED that she'd had nothing to worry about.

 

Omg this sounds like my WH Some MM truly believe their own delusions. If my WH's mask had not slipped he would still have this pride about himself. So much for image.

[Lobe]

things are falling into place like a row of connect 4 in my head

 

I'm doing a happy dance for you Oran. Your strength and self-awareness are inspiring. May the Disillusionment Fairy continue visiting you. Bigger and better things lie ahead.

 

Cheers!

[pooldog]

The thing is, don't think about the A. Just for one second.

 

Clear your mind. Make a clean slate. Kind of like a PowerPoint slide that is clean and blank. Now fill it with the answers about you. Where do YOU want to go from here. Because he is not going with you anymore. But the slate is clean. You have many blessings even many more than a married person. Married/single is not the only definition. We have health. We live in a great country. We have our lives ahead of us. The best is yet to come!

 

You can elect no more drama or staring at someone else's picnic table. It is all their own story but also their mess.

 

Just pencil out your thoughts. Of what you want. For your whole life. For your partner.

 

Don't let the A define you. I truly believe that an A is very easy for an unknowing person to fall into. Because the chemistry is that strong. And because the love you get feels that good. But we all learned the lesson about the pain and the entanglements of meddling in another committed relationship and then we learned our lesson because we are not chosen so we say never again.

 

Map it out. Forget about their drama. Write what you want. There is amazing man waiting for you. Right now. Maybe his GF dumped him or maybe his wife just passed away. When one door closes another door opens if we let it!

 

Repeat: no more drama! Just forward marching. And Winston Churchill says it best. When you get into hell, keep marching! Life doesn't always give you everything you want right now. You just have to wait. It brings MUCH more.

Edited June 15, 2016 by pooldog

[Oran]

I posted earlier about shifting blame dynamics in the A/post-A situation, and as such, I have been a little hesitant about making this post. I wondered whether I was just slipping into a dynamic of OP blames exAP & BS because I might be bitter about their impending R. And in all honesty, I do feel used by exAP. But I realize that R is a long and difficult road and is not a guaranteed outcome. In my final conversations with AP I said to him, I am afraid that you are nowhere near the darkest stage of your journey. And the same is true for his BS.

 

When BS appeared at our house one night, she stayed for over 3 hours. Initially she wanted to talk to AP with me there. He stood catatonic, frozen. With both of us there he could not function, because to say anything, he would reveal himself as a liar to one of us. He couldn't understand his frozen disassociation. but I think I did. I left them alone.

 

The next morning AP had gone to work, BS had stayed over somewhere. It had been a long drive from the marital home. I shouldn't have been at home that morning, but I was. And when I heard a knock at the door, I was not surprised, I had almost been expecting her.

 

- Is WH here?

- No, he's at work.

- Oh, that's better. Can I come in?

 

That's better? Why? How could I close the door on a woman whose space I have been intimately invading for 3 years? She wanted to know what WH had told me about the conversation the night before. I told her the truth, nothing; he came to bed 'exhausted' and left for work early the next morning. She proceeded to explain to me that he was not happy, said that he was not happy. He'd come home 3 days earlier, singing and dancing, full of mischief saying that he felt happier than he'd done in years and that he realized that he'd been depressed for years. Did I tell her this? No. She asked many other questions, and I told her the truth. She said on more than one occasion - do you know, he's STILL lying to me about that.

 

She spoke for a long time about the marriage - 3 hours, despite later telling WH that she'd visited me for an hour. I never lied to questions that she asked me, but I was never forthcoming with information that I knew would hurt her further. I realise that I was still very much under the influence of AP at the time.

 

She confirmed many of the things that AP had told me about the marriage. She left him twice. Once when engaged, and once after they were married, when she emptied his bank account and disappeared for a year. AP had told me early on that she had been unfaithful. I asked him how he knew, if he'd confronted the guy. He'd found her sexting - the few details of the messages that he recounted were grim. I asked him numerous times, what if that's not true? What if she wasn't unfaithful? What if they were just texts?

 

BS asked me that morning why I believed WH had begun an A with me. I replied - WH believes that you have been unfaithful in the marriage. She replied - he's talking about something that happened years ago, years ago, I was just looking for 'attention' and I NEVER had an affair.'. Up until that point she had been direct, nervous, occasionally aggressive, and always maintained eye contact. When she spoke about her supposed infidelity her body language and pattern of speech changed, became fragmented and evasive. At that point my gut reaction was, WH was right about her infidelity.

 

At that point I felt that I owed her the opportunity to be listened to. To see me, weigh me up, ask me anything she wanted to. I have never felt that I was her competition, and I didn't want her to think of me that way. I also felt that she was attempting to manipulate me. And a part of me wanted to yell 'I'm not your MC.'.

 

I asked her to come back that evening, so that we could all sit down and talk. If she and WH genuinely wanted to reconcile, and that it wasn't all just smoke and mirrors with regard to both wanting to hang on to marital assets, then I wanted to LEAVE. And, I also wanted to know the degree to which I had been lied to. She immediately jumped at the chance of meeting that evening... and the first thing out of her mouth was about splitting the financial assets. AP had told me that in the past when he had asked her - what kind of a H do you think I've been?, she had replied - you've been a good provider.

 

BS did not come back that evening. Instead she sought out her WH, she texted him an aggressive text about the sale of the house and splitting assets. To which he responded. They met. And he agreed to reconciliation. Just like that, he threw me under a bus. And what was my concern? It wasn't 'where will I go?', 'where will I live?', 'where can I find a new job?', no. I spent the rest of the weekend talking him through whether he was making the right decision, and assuaging his guilt for all the wrong that he has done me.

 

He said, 'I will never regret a minute of the time that I've spent with you. I am afraid that I am making the biggest mistake of my life (in attempting R). Do you regret meeting me?'. And I replied 'Unequivocally, without a trace of doubt, 100%, yes.'. And he was...offended.

 

What I'm learning in this forum is that not everything is black and white. I am glad that BS came and spoke to me, for many reasons. She spoke of WH being manipulative and controlling, yep, I experienced that myself. He had spoken about BSs infidelity, hmm, my gut instinct from her behavior is that he was right. She spoke about WHs character, and I could only agree. He spoke about her material selfishness and being abandoned by her twice. Yep, she confirmed all of that.

 

Like the Tolstoy quote - 'All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.'. Here was their particular unhappiness. The topography of their relationship. AND IT IS NOTHING TO DO WITH ME. It was never my job to fix exAP, that job description would have been impossible to meet. I never entered into a relationship with a person, I was in relationship with a marriage.

 

This is/has been undoubtedly a crisis point for me. But I am coming out of it with life-saving understanding. I have been involved in narcissistic-co~dependent relationship cycles for YEARS. This began in my FoO and I have perpetuated it. Maya Angelou said, “I don't trust people who don't love themselves and tell me, 'I love you.' ... There is an African saying which is: Be careful when a naked person offers you a shirt.". That's been me, and it's time to make myself a shirt.

[Poppy47]

I know I'm a bit post crazy at the moment, but these last 9 days have been the first time in 3 years that I have not had constant communication from my AP at the time, and tbh things are falling into place like a row of connect 4 in my head.

 

During our last conversations AP told me that when DDay came and he confessed to BS that he had been having an affair for 3 years, when he had asked her if she had ever had to worry about him straying in the past, he recounted with pride that she'd said she had never had to worry.

 

But this couldn't have been pride in the fact that, up until he met me, he'd been faithful. He hadn't. He was simply proud that she BELIEVED that she'd had nothing to worry about.

xMM was always boasting about the fact that he'd been married for 50 years! didn't matter that he had been cheating for the last 8. I don't know about the rest of his marriage. I reason that a man doesn't suddenly start cheating at 65 years of age.

Poppy.

[Oran]

Thinking about your post, Oran, and about the other thread in which they discuss the blaming of the AP...

 

 

It always bothers me, I think I understand but I think if, like in your above post they both take to name calling... it makes me feel a little sick. I think because it's like... by blaming the other party the WS gets (almost) a pass. If they bond over the bad other person, they can forget the WS's behaviour.

 

As much as I'd love to think myself an irresistible temptress, I'm not and this was not my behaviour towards xMM.

 

I was vulnerable. He showed me caring, affection, closeness I had long lost in my (just ended) marriage.

 

He pursued me, although I did myself no credit in not resisting.

 

Anyway, if I were a BS, I honestly don't know if I could forgive. I have been the OW and see how MM behaved and... well. There you go.

 

And if I did try to forgive I would expect him to accept FULL culpability even if I accepted my own failings in our relationship (as I did in my marriage).

 

Hi immokk, Lobe wrote an excellent post about this over on Winterkeep's thread 'self flagellation' which I'm quoting in entirety below... The R process is nothing to do with us really, but it is hard not to feel pained knowing what part of that process will look like. But as I said somewhere previously, 'nothing exists in isolation', you know that exAP is capable of running down, being critical of his SO in order to make a bond with his current partner. The dynamic has shifted. You (we) are now the party that will be run down and criticized. It's not our role to concern ourselves with that, we colluded in the devaluing of the BS. Our job is to heal ourselves. Which, if R is successful, is exactly what exAP and BS are doing for themselves. IMO.

 

"OP, I think you are in a different situation because you were blindsided by the fact your boyfriend was married. I imagine you felt incredibly betrayed and angry, and when you remember that feeling of being lied to, multiply that by years of marriage, children, mortgages, tragedies, milestones, and life experiences shared and you'll start to get a glimpse at why BS spouses are filled with so much unfettered rage. Spewing vitriol against the type of amoral, predatory, stereotyped AP, while not very nice, is a BS's rite of passage. "What kind of person would date someone else's spouse?" That vitriol better be aimed at the AP because if you aim it at your WS, it isn't conducive to reconciliation.

 

Finding a common enemy with the WS is a bonding experience for the AP during the affair and for the BS during reconciliation. The united front WS and AP against the BS allows them to build Fantasyland, while the united front of BS and WS against AP is necessary for R to happen, to help the BS feel secure, especially after months of being vilified and gaslighted.

 

Let's face it - as a BS it's easier to hear, "That woman seduced me and I'm so ashamed I failed to resist the gravitational pull of her ladyparts and fall into it with my penis," than to hear him say, "Look, I made a bad decision. She has been my best friend and confidante for X months, we were really close, and I am hurting because I'm going through a break-up here while trying to deal with your psychotic outbursts. It makes me sad you think so poorly of her and I know you're angry but baby, don't be mad at her..." The latter is honest; the former is part of the post-affair social contract where BS gets al the protection and AP gets none if the WS wants a snowball's chance in hell of making it work.

 

I don't blame the OW for what happened with my WH - ultimately, HE had ALL the power to protect me, himself, our family AND the OW from pain and agony. But I do fault her for not making him leave me before she picked up with him. That's not about "girl code" or any religious premise, but about self-respect and common decency. "Not dating people already engaged in a relationship" seems like a pretty obvious line to draw in the sand."