So Angry Right Now

[Poppy47]

Hearts,

 

It is difficult to know when you meet somebody, exactly what they are capable of doing.

 

I know now and I am out of it.

 

Some people are truly f..... up from early years and they don't even acknowledge it.

 

Poppy.

[13Hearts]

Wow Heart, this is SO MUCH what it has been like for me all these years. I told him so many times that I couldn't do it and he always ridiculed me for whatever I told him/ he got mad at me each and every time, and he has not once said that I was right about what I said. Hope you feel better soon Hugs, Adoraxx

 

Weird. Men living their lives in complete denial of the truth. As if telling YOU you are wrong makes what he is doing right or OK.

 

Either that or they're just women-haters. IDK.

[13Hearts]

Hearts,

 

It is difficult to know when you meet somebody, exactly what they are capable of doing.

 

I know now and I am out of it.

 

Some people are truly f..... up from early years and they don't even acknowledge it.

 

Poppy.

 

Thanks, Poppy.

 

Here's the weird, and awful, thing. I didn't just all of a sudden meet xMM. He was a friend, I THOUGHT a good friend, for many years. When we first got together (in the A), it was just regular talk. He confided a lot in me and here I thought what he was telling me about his marriage being over, being separated and all of that, was the truth. We did get closer, emotionally, but I told him from the very beginning that I did not want an A kind of relationship. I wanted a companion, someone to do things with after work and on weekends. I was VERY CLEAR about what I wanted and didn't want.

 

But, as with every other relationship with a man that I have had worked out, HE DID NOT LISTEN and he did not care what I wanted. Men do not care what you want. They only care about what THEY want. Life will continue to bring you the same lesson over and over until you learn it. And I have learned it now. ME FIRST. MY needs and MY wants first, until it feels like I am super selfish and running a man over. It's the only way. And if a man does not give me what I want or need, I dump him and don't look back.

 

It's unfortunate that it has to be this way.

[heartwhole]

And what, pray tell, do you suggest I change to prevent this from happening again? Lock myself in my house, or fully cover my face and my body so that no male can ever see me again? Report the next MM who won't leave me alone to the police??

 

I feel like you're going down with the ship to avoid considering how you are responsible for consenting to this relationship. If this weren't an affair, but simply a regular relationship that was toxic, would you still insist that your participation in it was just something that happened to you because the other participant wouldn't go away, rather than something you chose?

 

As a mother of daughters, I am doing my best to teach them that no one deserves their time or their smile or their touch just because he wants it. My kindergartener had trouble with a frenemy who treated her terribly and then told her it wasn't OK for them to stop being friends. My daughter found this confusing as she is a people-pleaser, and she thought that if you say, "No," that's always enough. But sometimes it's not. Still, that doesn't mean we just let others abuse us. So we brainstormed all the ways to handle the frenemy's troublesome behavior.

 

You don't have to have it all figured out yet, or to see it all clearly, and your anger is good and healthy. But I would caution you against expending so much energy rationalizing your participation in something unhealthy. Maybe what you need to do right now is just table your own role in it for now, while you let the anger energize you and propel you to action. But later, I hope you can learn to be empowered in your relationships. I don't think the takeaway from your experience is not to trust or not to give, but to work on your ability to judge who is worthy of your trust and gifts.

[ChickiePops]

I feel like you're going down with the ship to avoid considering how you are responsible for consenting to this relationship. If this weren't an affair, but simply a regular relationship that was toxic, would you still insist that your participation in it was just something that happened to you because the other participant wouldn't go away, rather than something you chose?

 

As a mother of daughters, I am doing my best to teach them that no one deserves their time or their smile or their touch just because he wants it. My kindergartener had trouble with a frenemy who treated her terribly and then told her it wasn't OK for them to stop being friends. My daughter found this confusing as she is a people-pleaser, and she thought that if you say, "No," that's always enough. But sometimes it's not. Still, that doesn't mean we just let others abuse us. So we brainstormed all the ways to handle the frenemy's troublesome behavior.

 

You don't have to have it all figured out yet, or to see it all clearly, and your anger is good and healthy. But I would caution you against expending so much energy rationalizing your participation in something unhealthy. Maybe what you need to do right now is just table your own role in it for now, while you let the anger energize you and propel you to action. But later, I hope you can learn to be empowered in your relationships. I don't think the takeaway from your experience is not to trust or not to give, but to work on your ability to judge who is worthy of your trust and gifts.

 

YES! This was what I was trying to say, but Heartwhole said it much more eloquently than I did.

 

I promise I wasn't trying to be mean when I said that you need to take responsibility for your role. I meant that you should try to figure out why you ALLOWED yourself to be treated the way you were for so long. He did treat you poorly, nobody is denying that..but you kept coming back for more and more and more. That part equates to damage on YOUR side, not his. What you need to do is figure out where that damage came from and how you can begin to fix it so that you will not stick around long enough to be treated like garbage next time you enter into a relationship.

 

Does that make more sense?

[13Hearts]

I feel like you're going down with the ship to avoid considering how you are responsible for consenting to this relationship. If this weren't an affair, but simply a regular relationship that was toxic, would you still insist that your participation in it was just something that happened to you because the other participant wouldn't go away, rather than something you chose?

 

As a mother of daughters, I am doing my best to teach them that no one deserves their time or their smile or their touch just because he wants it. My kindergartener had trouble with a frenemy who treated her terribly and then told her it wasn't OK for them to stop being friends. My daughter found this confusing as she is a people-pleaser, and she thought that if you say, "No," that's always enough. But sometimes it's not. Still, that doesn't mean we just let others abuse us. So we brainstormed all the ways to handle the frenemy's troublesome behavior.

 

You don't have to have it all figured out yet, or to see it all clearly, and your anger is good and healthy. But I would caution you against expending so much energy rationalizing your participation in something unhealthy. Maybe what you need to do right now is just table your own role in it for now, while you let the anger energize you and propel you to action. But later, I hope you can learn to be empowered in your relationships. I don't think the takeaway from your experience is not to trust or not to give, but to work on your ability to judge who is worthy of your trust and gifts.

 

You know, it's funny you should say this because driving to work this morning I realized that I am not empowered in my relationships, as you say. I let people walk all over me, because I am a care-giver. I take care of everything. Whatever needs done, I just do it. And I let people live their lives the way they want to. If someone doesn't want to do a particular thing, it's not my business. Plus, I'm too busy with my life, my house, my job, and my family to argue with someone or try to convince someone, to do something they just don't want to do.

 

But I don't believe I am going down with any ship and I have taken responsibility for my part. I've acknowledged that. I should not have let this person into my life. But as I said, we were already friends, for many years, and it started as him confiding in me about his troubled relationship with his wife, and recent separation, etc. I believed him. But before I got involved with him romantically, I told him I did not want to be involved with a MM.

 

I do communicate very clearly what I want and what I don't want in relationships. How much more clearly do you think I could have said "I don't want to be your mistress, your OW, your concubine, your side piece, etc. That is not me and I have too much integrity to participate in a relationship like that. I am looking for a committed relationship where we spend our free time together after work and on weekends, and take vacations together."

 

I gave him sufficient time to get it together. I did my best to extricate myself from the entanglement, and gave him the time he said he needed to separate and divorce, as he told me time and again he was going to do. Not sure what else people think I should have done.

 

I don't really care that much about it anymore. I was hurt and angry when I finally understood from him that he was involved with his next OW. It just finally all came together and after reading so much here on LS, I realized what and who he REALLY is. A serial cheater and a serial liar.

 

Anyway, I'm well on my way to being over it. After my great day the other day, my heart is lifted and beginning to heal. My ship is sailing, not sinking. The best revenge is a life well-lived. And using his credit card to buy lots of stuff off the internet! HAHAHAHAHA

[13Hearts]

YES! This was what I was trying to say, but Heartwhole said it much more eloquently than I did.

 

I promise I wasn't trying to be mean when I said that you need to take responsibility for your role. I meant that you should try to figure out why you ALLOWED yourself to be treated the way you were for so long. He did treat you poorly, nobody is denying that..but you kept coming back for more and more and more. That part equates to damage on YOUR side, not his. What you need to do is figure out where that damage came from and how you can begin to fix it so that you will not stick around long enough to be treated like garbage next time you enter into a relationship.

 

Does that make more sense?

I understand. And yes, I agree. But please believe me when I say that I spent A LOT of time and effort explaining to this man that I did not want to be romantically involved with him, why I did not, why I knew he would not divorce his wife, what he should do in order to move on, etc. I never demanded that he leave her, never cried about it or begged him to leave, just talked, explained, and made suggestions. But he ignored everything I said, begged me, bought me stuff and had it delivered, came to my house unannounced, told me how much he loved me and was in love with me, etc.

 

I'm not suffering. I'm not really missing him. I don't need that kind of dysfunction and drama in my life; I am busy and want to spend my spare time doing fun things. Affairs w MM are not for me. He knew that going in. And you know what? I have had this problem before, in relationships that were not affairs. I TELL them what I want and need for my life and they make promises and assurances that they want the same things, and as I spend time with them I see they are not delivering on what they said they would deliver so I start to move further and further away from them. Men do not seem to understand that I say what I mean and I mean what I say. They seem to think that if they give me what THEY think I want, what they have to offer, that I will be happy. But it's just not true.

 

So, like I said earlier, I'm just not going to get involved with any more men until they show and prove that the way they live their life is in accordance with what I want and need in mine. It's that simple.

 

Thank you for your concern, and for trying to help.

[Maggie888]

Heres where my confusion comes in. You say over and over that you made it abundently clear to him you did not want to be an OW.

 

But before I got involved with him romantically, I told him I did not want to be involved with a MM.

 

Yet ultimately, you did. You made the choice to become involved with him romantically or at some point stopped resisting his advances and became romantically intimate with him, correct?

 

You cant tell people you dont what to be OW, but then with your actions participate in a situation as an OW, and then blame it on them when you chose to participate.

 

I think that is where people are coming from in terms of accepting personal responsibility. You cant blame it on other people when your actions and words didnt match. Ultimately people view your actions and not words. If you say I dont want this, but then walk right into it, they are going to assume deep down you really do want it.

 

Also:

 

 

as I said, we were already friends, for many years, and it started as him confiding in me about his troubled relationship with his wife, and recent separation, etc. I believed him.

 

Poor boundaries here. You never allow an opposite sex married friend start to confide in your about their marriage. You nip that in the bud. Well if you want to prevent toxic relationships from creeping into your life that is.

[heartwhole]

You said you are a fixer or people-pleaser or something of the sort, yes? I really want to toe the line between victim blaming and encouraging empowerment because of course, it is never OK for someone to violate your boundaries or treat you poorly. But I am also trying to figure out why this is your pattern. I am a very reserved woman who gives off the "don't f--- with me" vibe to men, so I have honestly never had this experience.

 

Though actually, once when we were abroad, my husband went to the bathroom and some skeevy old pervert sat down next to me on a park bench and started caressing my leg. I felt that getting up, fighting him, or yelling would all probably escalate things and possibly make it more dangerous for me, so I stared at him, gave him crazy eyes, and said, "Oooooh! I LIKE it when you touch me!" And the creep looked surprised and then ran away. That's just what I mean about empowerment. It would NOT have been my fault if I'd sat there frozen -- I did that when something similar happened when I was a child. It was never my fault. But I used my wits to gain the upper hand and I got rid of him.

 

You can't change the fact that there are unhealthy people who prey on others, but you can fine-tune your instincts so that you spot them before they become so close to you that you are susceptible to their manipulations. And you can throw social graces to the wind when it comes to sending the message that NO means no.

[pooldog]

It is simply a big attraction for you and "wishful thinking" on his part. I liken it to a boy with a ferrari. He oodles over it. But he can't "buy" it. It is so good you enjoyed what you had but now you are wise about what you need and what this is all about.

 

How are you today?

 

I don't know why but over the last couple of days I have felt like such an idiot. I actually BELIEVED everything xMM told me about us, how much he was in love with me, all the flattery and good things about me which really boosted my self-image after going through a break-up a year or so before we hooked up, how compatible we are, how we were going to live our lives together, do all these things together, where we were going to live, all of it. I also believed everything he said about how he and his wife had no life together, did nothing together, just shared the same house, that they were separated, how he told her he wanted a divorce and they stopped marriage counseling. And I know now that it was all complete BS. Every single bit of it.

 

Add to that, texting yesterday he confirmed what I already knew which is that he is involved with another OW, having sex with her now, sneaking around during the day when he's supposed to be at lunch or on a work appointment out of the office.

 

All of it makes me feel like a worthless piece of $hit. If he pulled up in front of my house right now I would throw big rocks at his car.

[ladydesigner]

You know, it's funny you should say this because driving to work this morning I realized that I am not empowered in my relationships, as you say. I let people walk all over me, because I am a care-giver. I take care of everything. Whatever needs done, I just do it. And I let people live their lives the way they want to. If someone doesn't want to do a particular thing, it's not my business. Plus, I'm too busy with my life, my house, my job, and my family to argue with someone or try to convince someone, to do something they just don't want to do.

 

But I don't believe I am going down with any ship and I have taken responsibility for my part. I've acknowledged that. I should not have let this person into my life. But as I said, we were already friends, for many years, and it started as him confiding in me about his troubled relationship with his wife, and recent separation, etc. I believed him. But before I got involved with him romantically, I told him I did not want to be involved with a MM.

 

I do communicate very clearly what I want and what I don't want in relationships. How much more clearly do you think I could have said "I don't want to be your mistress, your OW, your concubine, your side piece, etc. That is not me and I have too much integrity to participate in a relationship like that. I am looking for a committed relationship where we spend our free time together after work and on weekends, and take vacations together."

 

I gave him sufficient time to get it together. I did my best to extricate myself from the entanglement, and gave him the time he said he needed to separate and divorce, as he told me time and again he was going to do. Not sure what else people think I should have done.

 

I don't really care that much about it anymore. I was hurt and angry when I finally understood from him that he was involved with his next OW. It just finally all came together and after reading so much here on LS, I realized what and who he REALLY is. A serial cheater and a serial liar.

 

Anyway, I'm well on my way to being over it. After my great day the other day, my heart is lifted and beginning to heal. My ship is sailing, not sinking. The best revenge is a life well-lived. And using his credit card to buy lots of stuff off the internet! HAHAHAHAHA

 

Yes this is me to a default I so understand what you mean! Time to put YOU in that #1 spot 13Hearts!

[13Hearts]

Putting me as #1, more and more is looking like not getting involved with anymore men. It's like they need to always be #1, and I just don't want to deal with people who are that needy and demanding.

[13Hearts]

Yep. I know. I guess what I was trying to say was that these lies and manipulation may not always be calculated or even deliberate. I certainly never realised I was doing any of those things, and I don't ever recall deliberately saying things to keep her close. In fact a few months ago I said I was toxic to her... But that didn't change the way I felt about her.

 

Addiction, come to think of it, is such an apt description.

 

Anyway, less about me. It is disappointing and you can obviously see past it all. I think your head and heart is heading in the right direction. And as MKD says, often the darkest moments can be illuminating.

 

Maybe you're right, NSS. Maybe it was not deliberate or calculated. But I think he knew going in that he would never be able to leave her, or get divorced. Maybe he gave me what he could and hoped I would feel that was enough.

 

But it wasn't. And I told him so many times.

 

What a mess.

[ladydesigner]

Putting me as #1, more and more is looking like not getting involved with anymore men. It's like they need to always be #1, and I just don't want to deal with people who are that needy and demanding.

 

I feel EXACTLY like this too. Don't want to feel like this towards men or WH, but it is what it is. I haven't met a man yet that hasn't shown me how selfish they could be (sorry to generalize to all you GOOD men out there )

[ladydesigner]

Putting me as #1, more and more is looking like not getting involved with anymore men. It's like they need to always be #1, and I just don't want to deal with people who are that needy and demanding.

 

Or just don't give them that #1 spot

[13Hearts]

I feel EXACTLY like this too. Don't want to feel like this towards men or WH, but it is what it is. I haven't met a man yet that hasn't shown me how selfish they could be (sorry to generalize to all you GOOD men out there )

 

I agree, they are selfish. And I don't mean this as an insult believe it or not. I have several brothers, and many friends and other family, who are men. I probably know more men than women. And they're selfish. I don't think they necessarily mean to be or even know how selfish they are. Some of my male friends have told me it's just how they are and that they have to force themselves to think of others, including their wives and children, first.

 

I don't have the patience to deal with that sort of thing. I'd rather be first in my world, alone, than last in someone else's.

[BuddyX]

First of all I have no respect for cheaters. But just because you are selfish it does not make you a bad person. If a man puts in 80 hours a week at work to provide for his family, it does not make him a jerk. Selfish? Yes. Provider? Definitely.

The world is littered with individuals who put their social life on hold to be successful. And I don't blame them one bit.

[]

Edited July 2, 2016 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[13Hearts]

I don't think a person working 80 hours a week to support their family is selfish. But I also don't think you want me to start listing what men do that is selfish. If you listen to women talk about their relationships, you will know what some of those things are and you don't need to hear it from me.

 

I was an OW. But I entered the relationship with xMM because he misrepresented himself and his situation to me. I didn't consider myself an OW at all.

[]

Edited July 2, 2016 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Removed full quote of immeditely preceding and edited quote

[pooldog]

You should read the work of Alison Armstrong. Men to tend to come across as being very selfish from a woman's point of view but it is only because they do not "connect" and do things to "connect". They are wired differently. She once said that a woman who does not know how to engage a man and manage his intentions is a frog farmer. It is all so enlightening. But I do think a man who is really into you will not be selfish he will make you feel like a queen. You just have to find one with a mutual attraction. No small feat. But worth the effort.

 

The best is yet to come.

 

I agree, they are selfish. And I don't mean this as an insult believe it or not. I have several brothers, and many friends and other family, who are men. I probably know more men than women. And they're selfish. I don't think they necessarily mean to be or even know how selfish they are. Some of my male friends have told me it's just how they are and that they have to force themselves to think of others, including their wives and children, first.

 

I don't have the patience to deal with that sort of thing. I'd rather be first in my world, alone, than last in someone else's.

[13Hearts]

My heart is hurting so badly today. I don't know why except life has been somewhat stressful lately. There was a death in the family some months ago and that has been wearing on me. One of my other family members is very sick and that is worrying me. And I am just so busy with my own responsibilities and taking care of aging family members, trying to do the right thing in that regard. MM was always my rock, my confidante, and just there for me, but now that resource is cut off from me, of my own doing.

 

It has taken everything I've got over the last couple of days not to reach out to him for support. But there is no one else to turn to for that, so I continue to suffer with this heartache. The break-up and NC causes pain in my heart itself, too. I know it's the best and healthiest thing to do, and I need to completely detach emotionally from him, but it is so difficult. There are so many reminders of him and of us, everywhere in my daily life, that I cannot avoid them or get away from them.

 

Struggling and sad, just feel beaten down...

[BuddyX]

Hang in there. But do not reach out.

The reason he was your rock is because you allowed him and only him into your life. There's a reason why you're hurting right now. You were codependent on one person. One person who did not give you 100%.

 

Now, focus and try to find someone you can lean on.

[Shadowburn]

Talk to us instead of him, 13hearts. We'll support you without any hidden agenda like he would have.

My NC mantra in the early excruciating days was "That's how bad I can feel and still keep NC".

Reward yourself. When someone treats us badly, we need to show ourselves even more kindness.

Pamper yourself - and the worse you feel, the more you should pamper yourself.

Get yourself fresh flowers

Treat yourself like you would treat dear friend.

 

You know all of this, 13hearts, you always offer amazing advise to others. Give your heart some time to catch up with your brilliant mind.

 

Best wishes xo

[13Hearts]

Talk to us instead of him, 13hearts. We'll support you without any hidden agenda like he would have.

My NC mantra in the early excruciating days was "That's how bad I can feel and still keep NC".

Reward yourself. When someone treats us badly, we need to show ourselves even more kindness.

Pamper yourself - and the worse you feel, the more you should pamper yourself.

Get yourself fresh flowers

Treat yourself like you would treat dear friend.

 

You know all of this, 13hearts, you always offer amazing advise to others. Give your heart some time to catch up with your brilliant mind.

 

Best wishes xo

 

It's so difficult to hear such kindnesses today. It makes me cry, which I really think I need to do. Thank you.

 

I do keep coming here and reading and reaching out. xMM was a friend for many years before the A, someone I respected and could go to for perspective and advice when I really needed it. But now, I see him differently and doubt I'd take his advice about anything anyway. Tears rolling down my face just thinking about it, how I destroyed that one strength in my life, that one friendship I could rely on.

 

BuddyX is right. I let this person close to me, to the exclusion of most others. I do not trust easily, but I trusted this person. I believed in him and I believed in what he told me was the truth. It's just depressing to know there is no one I can count on in this life but me. And God.

[13Hearts]

Hang in there. But do not reach out.

The reason he was your rock is because you allowed him and only him into your life. There's a reason why you're hurting right now. You were codependent on one person. One person who did not give you 100%.

 

Now, focus and try to find someone you can lean on.

 

Thanks BuddyX. I really needed someone else to tell me not to reach out to xMM. Thank you for lending me your strength today.

[Poppy47]

It's hard not to reach out Hearts, we all understand.

 

Being NC is really painful, but actually, when I think back being with him was sometimes a lot more painful

 

I think it's better to be NC and sad than live with the constant ups and downs of the A. It's very tiring and I can tell you, long term it will play with your head.

 

Poppy.