Is it really healthy to know everything about the A if reconciling?

[understand50]

and no BS knows how they will react either. To prejudge how it's going to shake out is more unfairness.

 

Of course many affairs are not rally planned, or planned along the lines of a fantasy land. When things come out, people just clam up or spill out all. The question was posed, if it is healthy for a BS to know all the details, if the couple is going to try and reconcile. I think the consensuses is that it is for the BS to decide how much they need to know, and it is up to the WS to answer all questions honestly put to them.

 

The base issue is that, infidelity is going to be painful, hurtful and linger for all time, for the BS, and if they have a heart, the WS. Mind movies will be based on some facts, or will be made up by the BS, but they will happen. Hind sight is 20/20, but if you could see what the consequences were, you would not have cheated in the first place.

 

For the spouse that says "I told to much, or I learned too much", at least you have all the details, or gave out the whole story, others never really know, and that is a torment in of itself. You are never really sure, and if more "facts" come out, you get to relive it again. Maybe not as intensely, but it is there. I would have rather known the whole truth up front, but that is me. Details other then what the SEX was, can be more painful. The question of, "How did you meet, and how did it lead to Sex" is one that I think every BS would like to know, but can be very painful to hear. Why did this happen? That can be the most painful of all.

 

Thing is, in order to reconcile, you must know, and you must be sure. With out that base, it become much harder to do. For trust to be reborn, the WS must first trust that the BS can and will hear what they did. If you do not have that courage, then, do you really have the courage for the hard work reconciliation? The BS, must trust that they know all that happened and the extent of the betrayal. They must know what they are forgiving, in order for their forgiveness to be real. Trust first comes back, when the WS is willing to show, just how bad and evil their actions were, and for the BS, just how much they are willing to forgive.

 

This is the foundation, with out it, reconciliation will fail, or, in my case, you get to do it all over when other things happen.

 

My two cents...........

[Mrs. John Adams]

Exactly understand 50....

 

Reconciliation requires both parties to be all in. You cannot reconcile alone.

My biggest regret in life is my affair... The pain I caused my husband is Unfathomable.

 

I was talking to my mom about it today... On rare occasion we discuss my affair... And she said she has never seen a man so broken. She also said he never not once said the word divorce.

 

He admitted to her that he was too comfortable.. And had shirked in his responsibility to my needs... He understood that had I been as comfortable as he had been I would never have responded to another mans attention.

 

My affair is 100% my decision.. My choice... I should have talked to him and told him the way I was feeling... I didn't. Instead I chose to accept the attention from another man. I chose another man over my husband... And that fact will forever be a scar on his heart....

 

You cannot undo actions or thoughts or things you say... And I know I said too much. But I was young and naive... And knew nothing about infidelity... Honestly.. I never had even heard of the word. I knew the word adultery... And I knew I had committed it and I knew that I had done a horrible thing not only to my husband but to myself. I knew how God felt about adultery... I knew that I stood in damnation... But I also knew that I stood to not only lose my soul I stood to lose my family. I knew I had to make it right on both accounts. But I did not know how.

 

So I did all I knew to do. I confessed my sin to both God and my husband... And I poured out my heart to both of them.

 

Did John need all of those details ? Probably not...did my confession cause irreparable damage? Maybe... But the fact is it was my cheating that caused the damage...nothing or no one else is to blame for what I did.

 

When a partner chooses to cheat... I don't think we as a cheater plans the infidelity nor do we plan the reconciliation from that infidelity. I think most cheaters act on impulse in both cases. Because honestly.. If I had planned the adultery ... If I had really thought it out... I would never have done it in the first place.

 

I don't think Loveshack is full of posters or full of people who are planning to have an affair... I think most people who are here have already experienced the infidelity.

 

I can hope that if just one person is swayed from having an affair... Those of us here who have felt infidelities sting would feel like we had accomplished much.

 

But sadly.. I don't think those people are here.

 

So we can analyze how we should have handled our own situations to pieces.... The fact is... It is what it is... And it is too late to change it now.

[Liam1]

I agree to a point. This is why when someone goes into a therapist they acces the situation. That's all I'm saying, professionally (even when disagreed with on here) they do weigh how a BS is before they advise on how someone should proceed.

 

Ive been to 2 MC & 3 priests, not one of them ever advised either one of us to just blurt out truth on anything until knowing our dynamic & or speaking with each other one on one first to access. I also went to school for medical & you definitely have to take classes on how & should you give life changing news. news

 

Excellent points, Whoknew:

 

None of the counselors my wife interviewed, and she chose the counselors, not me, advised her to ask for too many details.

 

Most advised her NOT to ask for details.

 

My wife did not care about the details. Just as she never delved into my sexual life prior to marrying her. She had no need to hear all the salacious details.

 

And, as another poster wisely pointed out.....It is IMPOSSIBLE to know if another person is giving you all the details about ANY situation, anyway.

 

All spouses withhold information from the other that they deem possibly hurtful. IMO, that is indicative of a kind spouse.

 

In fact, I would be suspicious of someone who was constantly telling the details of an affair to their spouse or anything for that matter.

 

Also, I have to wonder, with all the BSs here saying very nasty things about people who have had an affair in general. Obviously all the nasty thoughts

they are posting they MUST FEEL toward their own wayward spouses, too.

 

Do they read those postings to their WS.

 

I bet they do not.

 

If they did, the reconciliations would likely fail. Or the spouse might have another affair.

 

Also there are betrayed spouses who state emphatically that they no longer love their spouse and seem to be harboring a severe hatred for their WS, but I bet they have never divulged those feelings to their WS.

 

Some have even stated that they plan to leave when the children are older or after they re-school or get a better job, but are withholding that plan from the spouse.

 

Others state they only stay married because it is financially expedient.

 

How is withholding that information any different than withholding sexual details of an affair.

 

Some may say that withholding a plan to divorce someone in the future or feelings of hatred are actually worse because the BS is planning to leave the spouse.

 

Also, obviously there is no doubt that those types of lies are NEVER possibly being told to protect the spouse from hurt, because those lies are part of plan to hurt the spouse by surprising them with a divorce.

 

Those types of withholding are deceptions and they cause lies to be told. And, a lie is a lie is a lie.

 

Yet these people some how put themselves on a higher moral ground then their BS.

 

The BS with such plans are telling lies and being deceptive too. Yet, they can not see the contradiction. Or, that they are acting in a way society today deems immoral. ......Odd.

 

The point is that ALL spouses have secret thoughts that they do not share with their spouse.

 

IMO, most Psychologists would likely say that it is unhealthy for a couple to share every thought they have.

 

With that said some WSs are very cruel and perhaps they do not love their BS at all.

 

So, in those case staying for self serving reasons is logical and excusable.

 

My only point is that those people staying for self-serving reasons have to realize that some may think it is immoral and unforgivable and shows lack of integrity to stay in a loveless marriage for self-serving reasons.

 

To each his own. Unless a person walks in someone shoes, the can not dictate morality to them.

 

If a BS really wants the details, in that case, the BS will have no choice but to divulge the details.

 

But, IMO, the details will only cause further harm to the BS.

[Mrs. John Adams]

The bottom line is we do what we deem is best for our own situations.

 

What I think if your reconciliation is unimportant as is what you think of mine.

[Liam1]

It was a super crappy period in the R. Hubby gets it now...

 

When the BS or WS either accepts all or none of the blame, balance can't be restored. It's when there is joint accountability for the marital problems and a joint effort to come up with solutions that R is successful.

 

Lobe:

 

Good point.

 

Still accountability is getting counseling and attempting to address the issues that led to the affair. That is all.

 

Divulging salacious sexual details does not serve that purpose. It is not accountability. It has nothing to do with accountability.

 

That is why a lot of MCs ask the BS to be sure that they REALLY REALLY REALLY want the details. Because once you know you can NOT UNKNOW.

 

That is why we often see BSs who state that they regret asking for the sexual details.

[purplesorrow]

Excellent points, Whoknew:

 

None of the counselors my wife interviewed, and she chose the counselors, not me, advised her to ask for too many details.

 

Most advised her NOT to ask for details.

 

My wife did not care about the details. Just as she never delved into my sexual life prior to marrying her. She had no need to hear all the salacious details.

 

And, as another poster wisely pointed out.....It is IMPOSSIBLE to know if another person is giving you all the details about ANY situation, anyway.

 

All spouses withhold information from the other that they deem possibly hurtful. IMO, that is indicative of a kind spouse.

 

In fact, I would be suspicious of someone who was constantly telling the details of an affair to their spouse or anything for that matter.

 

Also, I have to wonder, with all the BSs here saying very nasty things about people who have had an affair in general. Obviously all the nasty thoughts

they are posting they MUST FEEL toward their own wayward spouses, too.

 

Do they read those postings to their WS.

 

I bet they do not.

 

If they did, the reconciliations would likely fail. Or the spouse might have another affair.

 

Also there are betrayed spouses who state emphatically that they no longer love their spouse and seem to be harboring a severe hatred for their WS, but I bet they have never divulged those feelings to their WS.

 

Some have even stated that they plan to leave when the children are older or after they re-school or get a better job, but are withholding that plan from the spouse.

 

Others state they only stay married because it is financially expedient.

 

How is withholding that information any different than withholding sexual details of an affair.

 

Some may say that withholding a plan to divorce someone in the future or feelings of hatred are actually worse because the BS is planning to leave the spouse.

 

Also, obviously there is no doubt that those types of lies are NEVER possibly being told to protect the spouse from hurt, because those lies are part of plan to hurt the spouse by surprising them with a divorce.

 

Those types of withholding are deceptions and they cause lies to be told. And, a lie is a lie is a lie.

 

Yet these people some how put themselves on a higher moral ground then their BS.

 

The BS with such plans are telling lies and being deceptive too. Yet, they can not see the contradiction. Or, that they are acting in a way society today deems immoral. ......Odd.

 

The point is that ALL spouses have secret thoughts that they do not share with their spouse.

 

IMO, most Psychologists would likely say that it is unhealthy for a couple to share every thought they have.

 

With that said some WSs are very cruel and perhaps they do not love their BS at all.

 

So, in those case staying for self serving reasons is logical and excusable.

 

My only point is that those people staying for self-serving reasons have to realize that some may think it is immoral and unforgivable and shows lack of integrity to stay in a loveless marriage for self-serving reasons.

 

To each his own. Unless a person walks in someone shoes, the can not dictate morality to them.

 

If a BS really wants the details, in that case, the BS will have no choice but to divulge the details.

 

But, IMO, the details will only cause further harm to the BS.

 

Weren't you staying in your marriage for self serving reasons? Staying with your wife while cheating? Why are you so pressed to judge betrayed spouses?

[wmacbride]

Excellent points, Whoknew:

 

None of the counselors my wife interviewed, and she chose the counselors, not me, advised her to ask for too many details.

 

Most advised her NOT to ask for details.

 

My wife did not care about the details. Just as she never delved into my sexual life prior to marrying her. She had no need to hear all the salacious details.

 

And, as another poster wisely pointed out.....It is IMPOSSIBLE to know if another person is giving you all the details about ANY situation, anyway.

 

All spouses withhold information from the other that they deem possibly hurtful. IMO, that is indicative of a kind spouse.

 

In fact, I would be suspicious of someone who was constantly telling the details of an affair to their spouse or anything for that matter.

 

Also, I have to wonder, with all the BSs here saying very nasty things about people who have had an affair in general. Obviously all the nasty thoughts

they are posting they MUST FEEL toward their own wayward spouses, too.

 

Do they read those postings to their WS.

 

I bet they do not.

 

If they did, the reconciliations would likely fail. Or the spouse might have another affair.

 

Also there are betrayed spouses who state emphatically that they no longer love their spouse and seem to be harboring a severe hatred for their WS, but I bet they have never divulged those feelings to their WS.

 

Some have even stated that they plan to leave when the children are older or after they re-school or get a better job, but are withholding that plan from the spouse.

 

Others state they only stay married because it is financially expedient.

 

How is withholding that information any different than withholding sexual details of an affair.

 

Some may say that withholding a plan to divorce someone in the future or feelings of hatred are actually worse because the BS is planning to leave the spouse.

 

Also, obviously there is no doubt that those types of lies are NEVER possibly being told to protect the spouse from hurt, because those lies are part of plan to hurt the spouse by surprising them with a divorce.

 

Those types of withholding are deceptions and they cause lies to be told. And, a lie is a lie is a lie.

 

Yet these people some how put themselves on a higher moral ground then their BS.

 

The BS with such plans are telling lies and being deceptive too. Yet, they can not see the contradiction. Or, that they are acting in a way society today deems immoral. ......Odd.

 

The point is that ALL spouses have secret thoughts that they do not share with their spouse.

 

IMO, most Psychologists would likely say that it is unhealthy for a couple to share every thought they have.

 

With that said some WSs are very cruel and perhaps they do not love their BS at all.

 

So, in those case staying for self serving reasons is logical and excusable.

 

My only point is that those people staying for self-serving reasons have to realize that some may think it is immoral and unforgivable and shows lack of integrity to stay in a loveless marriage for self-serving reasons.

 

To each his own. Unless a person walks in someone shoes, the can not dictate morality to them.

 

If a BS really wants the details, in that case, the BS will have no choice but to divulge the details.

 

But, IMO, the details will only cause further harm to the BS.

 

If my husband read your posts, he;d have a few choice words to say, and they would not be polite. then he would probably laugh and express sympathy for your wife.

 

I do hope that she is in a support group where unremorseful ws are not permitted, as she likely needs the opportunity to express her true feelings and ask questions without being swatted down.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Giving too many details does not necessarily mean sexual details... Too many details can encompass feelings and thoughts... As a matter of fact ... One of the things I said that to this day hurts my husband .. Has nothing to do with sex.

[wmacbride]

Lobe:

 

Good point.

 

Still accountability is getting counseling and attempting to address the issues that led to the affair. That is all.

 

Divulging salacious sexual details does not serve that purpose. It is not accountability. It has nothing to do with accountability.

 

That is why a lot of MCs ask the BS to be sure that they REALLY REALLY REALLY want the details. Because once you know you can NOT UNKNOW.

 

That is why we often see BSs who state that they regret asking for the sexual details.

 

you are cherry picking your interpretation.

 

Our counselor asked the same thing, but made the point that it's up to a bs to decide what he or she can handle or need to know.

 

For some, the imagined details are far worse than the reality, and hearing what really went on can be helpful to them. Others need to know the full breadth of what happened so they can make decisions about what their next steps will be.

 

For example, some bs want to know if the ws and ap had sex in their home or their bed. That may be excruciatingly painful to hear, but if they don't ask, they will always have that question in their mind.

 

To quote the website"Truth About Deception",

 

"In addition to identifying the motivation underlying the affair, it is essential to candidly discuss the details of what happened. Again, most cheating spouses attempt to hide the details of the affair, thinking that telling the truth will only lead to more problems.

 

But, concealing the details of the affair, often leads to lingering questions, which if not addressed, are unlikely to go away on their own. And if questions linger, it can be nearly impossible for a spouse not to dwell on the incident.

 

 

Revealing the truth can be painful, but it is necessary when trying to move forward."

Source-Truth About Deception

[wmacbride]

Giving too many details does not necessarily mean sexual details... Too many details can encompass feelings and thoughts... As a matter of fact ... One of the things I said that to this day hurts my husband .. Has nothing to do with sex.

 

I got the "you're not fun anymore".

 

That was hurtful, and made me very angry at the time. After I thought about it a bit, I could understand where he was coming from. We talked about it, and he had been so stressed out by his work and other factors that the he felt unable to cope with the stresses at home.

 

Yes, it hurt to hear that. It hurt a lot, but if I hadn't heard it, how could we possibly have addressed it?

[Red123]

I don't know if it's healthy to know all the details in order to reconcile but I wanted them all. At first I asked the basics, the 5 Ws because we had separated. When we were discussing reconciliation I wanted to know everything. In my mind, even though this was. 3 month A I imagined something like in a movie, amazing sex, this intense connection. Well when I did some digging and found old emails and chats it wasn't what I suspected. When he came clean about everything, again it wasn't what I thought at all. 2 years later I don't regret asking for the details because my mind movies and imagination were far worse. That's not always the case with every A so I completely agree that it is up to each couple how they move forward with information about the A.

[Lobe]

I got the "you're not fun anymore".

 

I got, "You don't listen." Coming from a man who it's difficult to get to pick a restaurant, I was livid. I can't LISTEN, if you don't SPEAK, asshat...

[wmacbride]

I got, "You don't listen." Coming from a man who it's difficult to get to pick a restaurant, I was livid. I can't LISTEN, if you don't SPEAK, asshat...

 

With my H, he was in such a bad place in his mind, I am not sure he really knew what he wnated or was capable of really thinking beyond five minutes in the future.

 

I wish I had known how bad it was for him, but he didn't feel he could tell anyone, let alone me.

 

I am glad he had it in him to actually be honest with me. That took a lot of bravery on his part, as facing though demons was really tough.

[solostand]

I think the WS should tell every detail lest the OW decide to provide that information at a later date, with proof.

[wmacbride]

I think the WS should tell every detail lest the OW decide to provide that information at a later date, with proof.

 

This is a good point, and one that has been left out of the conversation.

 

It's far better for a bs to hear the facts from their ws than the ow/om.

[merrmeade]

This again, is just my out there opinion, but the honesty can be helpful to both spouses.

 

for the bs, they have their questions answered. While they may never have all the information, at least, they have a start.

 

The second part is where many my disagree with me.

 

I'm talking now about couples who stayed together and who are well on their way to healing from the A.

 

In my expeirnce, most remorseful ws are , at heart, honest people. while they may have engaged in very hurtful behavior, that is not who they are, deep down. They need to heal as well from the A. It often trashes their self image and esteem, and they need to recover and find that they are still honest and worthy of their bs love. As my H explained it to me, to his way of thinking, he wnated to feel like he had earned his way back into our marriage through honesty and small but constant acts of love. Part of that was answering questions I had and helping me understand what had happened. My mind doesn't work the way his did, so it took me a long time to understand his thought process, and tbh, part of me still doesn't.

 

The post A discussions, for however long they happen ( and that can be until "death do us part") can provide them an opportunity for honesty, in so far as the bs wants that honesty. It also provides further opportunity for the relationship, and the two individuals who comprise it, to continue healing and growing.

 

The bs is certainly in a position to guide their portion fo the process.

 

now that I have expressed what many will find complete nonsense...time to sign off

Hey, mcB - Don't EVER apologize for this post. In my opinion - and my hope - it could be a turning point in these discussions. I think since MJA became active in this forum, there's been a lot more complexity and honest discussion, more openness especially. There's been a kind of truce and willingness to dig deeper without defensiveness on both sides of the post-infidelity period with BSs feeling heard and WSs measuring their words and fast judgments better. jmo.

 

And I find the way you put that post extremely helpful to me at this stage of growth to validate the extreme effort and areas of sincerity my husband put forth to travel the enormous distance he had to go from his (deserved) shame with so little experience and skill in understanding and expressing himself. I love that line - the "small but constant acts of love" - because for people like my H, sometimes that's all he knew how to do.

 

The other day I woke up in the middle of a nightmare in which H was 'doing it again' but in front of me and all the people we knew. This was a ridiculous scenario as dreams go but, nevermind, the sorrow and despair I felt was enormous and I woke up crying "You did it again, you did it again." He came to me and sat beside me on the bed while I cried and walked us through the basics of what he did, what my sister-in-law did and said - the most devastating events. I said why I cannot be sure he knows himself well enough to know when he starts up that road again. This time he didn't take it personally and just said, "I know, I know [and confirmed what I was saying] but I really think I've changed. I'm not the same person I was." And this time he looked at me with more vulnerability, hoping, I think, for affirmation that he is a good man now, as you said, the ws needing to become "honest and worthy of their bs love."

 

I hope we continue this acknowledgement of the enormous life change that dealing with the aftermath of infidelity and loss of trust means for both partners. I can see how easily a couple's give-and-take effort to try and create a new, different, better marriage can get stuck or just finally die out because the pain is just too deep and the wherewithal missing how to ask so they're heard and how to answer so they heal.

 

There's no judging right or wrong, this way or that. It's the result that counts and the genuine will to succeed for all the right reasons. It allows you to discover each other anew and redefine who you are post-apocalypse.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Hey, mcB - Don't EVER apologize for this post. In my opinion - and my hope - it could be a turning point in these discussions. I think since MJA became active in this forum, there's been a lot more complexity and honest discussion, more openness especially. There's been a kind of truce and willingness to dig deeper without defensiveness on both sides of the post-infidelity period with BSs feeling heard and WSs measuring their words and fast judgments better. jmo.

 

And I find the way you put that post extremely helpful to me at this stage of growth to validate the extreme effort and areas of sincerity my husband put forth to travel the enormous distance he had to go from his (deserved) shame with so little experience and skill in understanding and expressing himself. I love that line - the "small but constant acts of love" - because for people like my H, sometimes that's all he knew how to do.

 

The other day I woke up in the middle of a nightmare in which H was 'doing it again' but in front of me and all the people we knew. This was a ridiculous scenario as dreams go but, nevermind, the sorrow and despair I felt was enormous and I woke up crying "You did it again, you did it again." He came to me and sat beside me on the bed while I cried and walked us through the basics of what he did, what my sister-in-law did and said - the most devastating events. I said why I cannot be sure he knows himself well enough to know when he starts up that road again. This time he didn't take it personally and just said, "I know, I know [and confirmed what I was saying] but I really think I've changed. I'm not the same person I was." And this time he looked at me with more vulnerability, hoping, I think, for affirmation that he is a good man now, as you said, the ws needing to become "honest and worthy of their bs love."

 

I hope we continue this acknowledgement of the enormous life change that dealing with the aftermath of infidelity and loss of trust means for both partners. I can see how easily a couple's give-and-take effort to try and create a new, different, better marriage can get stuck or just finally die out because the pain is just too deep and the wherewithal missing how to ask so they're heard and how to answer so they heal.

 

There's no judging right or wrong, this way or that. It's the result that counts and the genuine will to succeed for all the right reasons. It allows you to discover each other anew and redefine who you are post-apocalypse.

 

Ah my sweet Merremeade...this is the BEST post you have written. Never before have I read such HOPE in your comments and my dear dear lady....i have longed to hear that from you.

 

I do believe maybe you and your hubby have turned a corner. It's a long long road to travel....but I know that as long as John and I travel it together...we will make it. All we really need is to know we both want to get there...together.

 

We want to feel like we are not traveling alone....

 

This does not mean that doubts and fears and insecurities resurface from time to time...of course they do. It doesn't mean that harsh words are never spoken...or feelings are never hurt...we are human after all....and each suffers stress and panic.

 

The biggest lesson I have learned in our 44 years of marriage...is to not take things PERSONALLY. I am extremely sensitive...I am very needy....and when john snaps at me...it is not ME he is snapping at...it is the stress of the day...or the disappointment of the day. By coming to this understanding...the alienation i felt all those years ago....does not occur.

 

We both make sure the other one feels secure.

 

and this is exactly what your sweetheart did for you. He reassured you...he took your fears upon himself...and walked through them with you.

 

That's beautiful.....that's love....that's understanding......that's PROGRESS.

[merrmeade]

Ah my sweet Merremeade...this is the BEST post you have written. Never before have I read such HOPE in your comments and my dear dear lady....i have longed to hear that from you.

 

I do believe maybe you and your hubby have turned a corner. It's a long long road to travel....but I know that as long as John and I travel it together...we will make it. All we really need is to know we both want to get there...together.

 

We want to feel like we are not traveling alone....

 

This does not mean that doubts and fears and insecurities resurface from time to time...of course they do. It doesn't mean that harsh words are never spoken...or feelings are never hurt...we are human after all....and each suffers stress and panic.

 

The biggest lesson I have learned in our 44 years of marriage...is to not take things PERSONALLY. I am extremely sensitive...I am very needy....and when john snaps at me...it is not ME he is snapping at...it is the stress of the day...or the disappointment of the day. By coming to this understanding...the alienation i felt all those years ago....does not occur.

 

We both make sure the other one feels secure.

 

and this is exactly what your sweetheart did for you. He reassured you...he took your fears upon himself...and walked through them with you.

 

That's beautiful.....that's love....that's understanding......that's PROGRESS.

Thank you so much. Yes, I think we've turned a corner, too. We had a LOT to get over. It's all new - like it should always have been... He had to learn to trust, too.

[Mrs. John Adams]

oh absolutely!!! I was terribly frightened...that at any minute john would pull the rug out from under me...and then where would i be? I had to learn to trust him as much as he had to learn to trust me.

 

The sad part is...both of us were afraid. When he would go into depression...i was afraid he could not take it any more and would leave....that went on for many many years.

 

So yes...he has to trust you as well....and when we know we don't deserve any trust...it makes it completely frightening....because we would not blame you for giving up on us.

[wmacbride]

Compare a marriage to a dynamic, living person. It goes through it's childish innocence, then it's rebellious adolescence, and if it makes it past that point, it becomes a stable and wise adult.

 

After an affair, if both spouses are willing to try, the marriage still can reach the mature and wise stage.

[Lobe]

Compare a marriage to a dynamic, living person. It goes through it's childish innocence, then it's rebellious adolescence, and if it makes it past that point, it becomes a stable and wise adult.

 

After an affair, if both spouses are willing to try, the marriage still can reach the mature and wise stage.

 

You missed the flailing tantrum phase...

[understand50]

merrmeade,

 

I am only able to post in the morning, but I had to say how happy I am for this. Maybe the nightmare of what has past is coming to an end, and while you will always remember, the pain and hurt can be put where it they are needed - In the past. Your husband, may never be exactly what you wanted or hoped for, but he is what he has become. Time always helps, it dulls the pain, but it also changes, and make each of us better, if we work at it, and if we allow it.

 

You have changed, and so has he. Maybe, now you both can build upon the past, the hard work, and find some happiness going forward. This is reconciliation.

 

As Always, I wish you luck......

 

 

Hey, mcB - Don't EVER apologize for this post. In my opinion - and my hope - it could be a turning point in these discussions. I think since MJA became active in this forum, there's been a lot more complexity and honest discussion, more openness especially. There's been a kind of truce and willingness to dig deeper without defensiveness on both sides of the post-infidelity period with BSs feeling heard and WSs measuring their words and fast judgments better. jmo.

 

And I find the way you put that post extremely helpful to me at this stage of growth to validate the extreme effort and areas of sincerity my husband put forth to travel the enormous distance he had to go from his (deserved) shame with so little experience and skill in understanding and expressing himself. I love that line - the "small but constant acts of love" - because for people like my H, sometimes that's all he knew how to do.

 

The other day I woke up in the middle of a nightmare in which H was 'doing it again' but in front of me and all the people we knew. This was a ridiculous scenario as dreams go but, nevermind, the sorrow and despair I felt was enormous and I woke up crying "You did it again, you did it again." He came to me and sat beside me on the bed while I cried and walked us through the basics of what he did, what my sister-in-law did and said - the most devastating events. I said why I cannot be sure he knows himself well enough to know when he starts up that road again. This time he didn't take it personally and just said, "I know, I know [and confirmed what I was saying] but I really think I've changed. I'm not the same person I was." And this time he looked at me with more vulnerability, hoping, I think, for affirmation that he is a good man now, as you said, the ws needing to become "honest and worthy of their bs love."

 

I hope we continue this acknowledgement of the enormous life change that dealing with the aftermath of infidelity and loss of trust means for both partners. I can see how easily a couple's give-and-take effort to try and create a new, different, better marriage can get stuck or just finally die out because the pain is just too deep and the wherewithal missing how to ask so they're heard and how to answer so they heal.

 

There's no judging right or wrong, this way or that. It's the result that counts and the genuine will to succeed for all the right reasons. It allows you to discover each other anew and redefine who you are post-apocalypse.

[understand50]

oh absolutely!!! I was terribly frightened...that at any minute john would pull the rug out from under me...and then where would i be? I had to learn to trust him as much as he had to learn to trust me.

 

The sad part is...both of us were afraid. When he would go into depression...i was afraid he could not take it any more and would leave....that went on for many many years.

 

So yes...he has to trust you as well....and when we know we don't deserve any trust...it makes it completely frightening....because we would not blame you for giving up on us.

 

Abigail,

 

I do not want to seem like I am picking on you, but you hit upon a big thing. That is TRUST. we talk about rebuilding trust in reconciliation, how we do not trust the other after infidelity. How only time and positive actions can rebuild trust.

 

BUT

 

Trust of a love one, when the truth first comes out is paramount. What I am getting at, is that one must trust and have courage to tell the truth, and the BS must have trust that everything has come out. At LS, there are threads upon threads, and Joseph's letter, each detailing, that infidelity has happened, but the WS is with holding details and information. I know you and both John feel that too much came out, and maybe in hindsight it did. I wonder throw, if you both hit upon the only thing that allowed you to stay together in the white hot pain of the first day. Of course, we cannot back up time and do the same thing over, but this time only with "some details" and then see after 33 years how you both are doing. You both will never know.

 

I think both your advise is valid, be careful what you say, but the main idea of honestly and fully answering all questions still holds. It come down to trust, and courage. After committing infidelity, can I tell all and have hope of some forgiveness from by spouse. As a BS, can I count on getting the whole story, and do I trust them that they did so. It may have been brutal, but that is what you both did.

 

In my own case, I trusted her to tell me all, and she did not. Yes I learned about her cheating, but not why. She did not fully trust me. As we were very young, and not married, I can see why. I later asked her, once we got married, or right before, why not set everything straight? why keep silent? Her reply, was, I did not want to hurt you, and I did not want to lose you. Now much latter, when the whole truth came out, along with other stressful things in the marriage, I told her my forgiveness held. I am left with not really trusting her. This is not the deal breaker that most think in a marriage, but it is the thing we most work on when we talk.

 

As always I wish you and John luck........

[Mrs. John Adams]

Abigail,

 

I do not want to seem like I am picking on you, but you hit upon a big thing. That is TRUST. we talk about rebuilding trust in reconciliation, how we do not trust the other after infidelity. How only time and positive actions can rebuild trust.

 

BUT

 

Trust of a love one, when the truth first comes out is paramount. What I am getting at, is that one must trust and have courage to tell the truth, and the BS must have trust that everything has come out. At LS, there are threads upon threads, and Joseph's letter, each detailing, that infidelity has happened, but the WS is with holding details and information. I know you and both John feel that too much came out, and maybe in hindsight it did. I wonder throw, if you both hit upon the only thing that allowed you to stay together in the white hot pain of the first day. Of course, we cannot back up time and do the same thing over, but this time only with "some details" and then see after 33 years how you both are doing. You both will never know.

 

I think both your advise is valid, be careful what you say, but the main idea of honestly and fully answering all questions still holds. It come down to trust, and courage. After committing infidelity, can I tell all and have hope of some forgiveness from by spouse. As a BS, can I count on getting the whole story, and do I trust them that they did so. It may have been brutal, but that is what you both did.

 

In my own case, I trusted her to tell me all, and she did not. Yes I learned about her cheating, but not why. She did not fully trust me. As we were very young, and not married, I can see why. I later asked her, once we got married, or right before, why not set everything straight? why keep silent? Her reply, was, I did not want to hurt you, and I did not want to lose you. Now much latter, when the whole truth came out, along with other stressful things in the marriage, I told her my forgiveness held. I am left with not really trusting her. This is not the deal breaker that most think in a marriage, but it is the thing we most work on when we talk.

 

As always I wish you and John luck........

 

I always encourage complete honesty... While I question whether I should have told all... I still did what I believe to be the right thing... We can never predict the outcome ... And hindsight is always easier than foresight.

 

If you read all my posts .. And I know you do.. I never encourage withholding information.

 

So I am not sure if you are reprimanding me or agreeing with me.

 

I can tell you ... It takes a tremendous amount of courage for a wayward to disclose...

 

We essentially place our future... Our destiny into the hands of the person we betrayed... Yes that's fair... Because after all we vowed to never cheat and we did.

 

We wrestle with keeping the secret and keeping safe or discloseing and risking everything. It takes a great deal of trust and hope to tell.

 

We see threads started here day after day with waywArds saying they will not disclose. I understand it yet I srongly disagree with not telling.

 

I appreciate the words of Meremeade so much... Because it truly is my goal to help waywards but to also help betrayed understand their wayward a bit better.

 

If I am nothing else... I am honest.

 

I never profess to have all the answers and I too learn much from being here.

 

Reconciliation is a process and we do the best we can but we all make mistakes.

 

I love seeing when others make progress.. It uplifts me and gives me hope.

[understand50]

Agreeing with, but with comments.....