Trying to work it out [updated 2017-03-17]

[Clay]

Your BF exBF whatever he is...Needs to be punched in the face hard.

 

I can understand jealousy, but he went way to far. Even if you did get date raped, your boyfriends actions are even worse than a date-rapist. Putting some one out publicly like that is not good human behavior. I don't care if they have a good job, family loves them, member of the community...some one who does that is trash.

 

Women were sexually liberated in the 1970's. This was a good thing for society. Lets not go backwards.

 

You clearly have never experienced this pain. I don't condone what he said but the pain is unreal. I have gone through it more times than most. You would think I would have either given up along time ago or just be numb to it by now.

 

She needs to get to the police and have this checked out seriously. I could care less at this point about her boyfriend. From everything she has said it seriously sounds like she was drugged and raped.

 

Its amazing to me that you find her boyfriends actions worse than a date rapist.

[Chi townD]

You are not seriously suggesting that she drank so much she blacked out for an ENTIRE NIGHT? And she does not recall drinking this much? A person would pretty much need to drink an entire bottle of vodka to black out. When people black out from drinking it's usually a period of time- maybe an hour or so- not an entire night. What's more likely here- that a young girl who doesn't drink and has only slept with one person in her entire life- suddenly becomes the type of person to drink so much she blacks out and seduces a guy she's never met?

Or that she had one or two drinks, was slipped a drug, and then was raped by some *********?

 

Why is it so difficult for people to accept that men do these things, actually very frequently.

 

Are you seriously suggesting that people don't get passed out drunk? Or black out drunk? I know I have!

 

I was about 23 years old and I was in Trondheim Norway! I remember going clubbing with my friends and I remember getting to the first bar. I also remember that I started drinking (just like the OP remembers) Next thing I know I was waking up in the place I was staying at. No idea how I got there, sick as a dog and my arms were tore up with road rash. No idea how that happened. Had to call my friend to find out what happened.

 

Ahh....good times..

[Justanaverageguy]

Oh, but it's not nearly that simple. This situation falls into a huge gray area that defies definition.

 

There is also ongoing discussion about alcohol and consent. Women's groups favor the concept that a woman who is intoxicated cannot give consent, and since degree of intoxication is a sticky wicket they default to consumption of any amount of alcohol.

 

But the logical problem is that is sex which is otherwise consensual (not forced) involving two people who have had a few (or many) drinks... they both had sex with someone who had no ability to give consent, therefore they're both guilty. I commend OP for recognizing this.

 

The only way to make this concept work is to make rape a single gender offense, which is not right either, regardless of the fact that it's more often perpetuated by men against women. Are we really ready to define all of this in such a way that the only time sex isn't rape is when a woman has had zero alcohol, and provides explicit, affirmative consent continuously throughout? Who ever does that? This would mean that in nine months, having sex twice a week, my girlfriend and I probably have not ever had consensual sex.

 

Someone who is speaking some sense - I applaud you for providing a balanced view point which seems to be lacking on this thread.

 

I feel for the OP here as its a terrible position to be in - especially as she just doesn't know what happened. Maybe she was drugged maybe she wasn't. In all likelihood at this stage she will never know for sure.

 

if someone is unable to give consent because they are intoxicated, it's considered rape.

 

But to those screaming it doesn't matter if she was drunk its rape anyway like this one eyed poster you really need to have a hard think about how you frame "rape" and responsibility for ones own actions. Yes there are some **** head guys out there who prey on drunk girls .... but there is an equal chance this guy could just be your average joe and a relatively decent guy who was just as drunk (maybe even more drunk) then the OP and the sex was consensual between two equally drunk and equally willing participants. In this case there is an equal argument she raped him. If both parties are drunk neither could legally give consent so this argument is completely null and void. You cannot simply pass off responsibility for your actions to the man because you had one to many drinks.

 

With that said the OP seems to be acting appropriately in this instance under very difficult circumstances and trying to get some facts before accusing people of anything.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Justanaverageguy

[AMJ]

Are you seriously suggesting that people don't get passed out drunk? Or black out drunk? I know I have!

 

 

It's illegal in most places to have sex with someone who is blacked out drunk.

It's called rape. That's what I'm saying. If you can't remember it happening, then you clearly were not in a state of mind to consent.

[frus69]

Please tell me if two people are drunk then NEITHER should be capable of consenting.And don't start with "Well, he wasn't as drunk as her." Speech. If you're too drunk to drive, then you're too drunk to consent. But, if they engage in sex, then why is the guy AUTOMATICALLY a rapist? Even if she was the aggressor, why is HE still guilty of rape?

 

Do you think the sex would have happened if he was really too drunk to consent as well? because i heard men can't even get hard if they are that drunk.

 

And he remembered they had sex, he knows it so it means he consented it, no?

 

She didn't remember it, only felt sore and he told her this

Edited May 18, 2016 by frus69

[frus69]

Op you have every possibility to be raped but you don't seem to want to do anything to help yourself with this situation

 

You should be calling a help line or talking to a community legal aid.

 

Are you from a relatively small/conservative town/family? (I'm very surprised you never heard of morning after pill) and your family really aren't helping (especially your mom?) you seem to think it's better to cheat than to be raped

 

Anyway it's your choice. At the end of the day ain't nobody here is a lawyer. Best of luck

[RecentChange]

Do you think the sex would have happened if he was really too drunk to consent as well? because i heard men can't even get hard if they are that drunk.

 

Not in my experience. When we were younger, and crazier the Mr. and I have gotten straight wasted, and his equipment always worked perfectly fine (I am recalling a particular night in Amsterdam - totally out of it, but foggy memories confirmed that everything functioned normally).

 

And I remember debauchery at college parties, certainly messed around with really drunk guys, but never once have I encountered a limp dick.

[frus69]

Not in my experience. When we were younger, and crazier the Mr. and I have gotten straight wasted, and his equipment always worked perfectly fine (I am recalling a particular night in Amsterdam - totally out of it, but foggy memories confirmed that everything functioned normally).

 

And I remember debauchery at college parties, certainly messed around with really drunk guys, but never once have I encountered a limp dick.

Any of them forgot they had sex with you ?

[RecentChange]

No, I can't say that I have ever, or that "he" has ever claimed full amnesia

 

The Amsterdam night - little things would give me "flash backs" - like walking into the bathroom the next morning and going .........waaaait, um I seem to recall us F'ing in here last. And him being foggy, oh yeah! Hahahah how!? Last I recall I could hardly walk! But yeah ahhh I kinda recall that too....

 

I have never been totally black out wasted to the point of amnesia (and I used to party). Perhaps I wouldn't remember something until reminded, things might be foggy, but no, never had full amnesia, let alone sex and amnesia.

[frus69]

No, I can't say that I have ever, or that "he" has ever claimed full amnesia

 

The Amsterdam night - little things would give me "flash backs" - like walking into the bathroom the next morning and going .........waaaait, um I seem to recall us F'ing in here last. And him being foggy, oh yeah! Hahahah how!? Last I recall I could hardly walk! But yeah ahhh I kinda recall that too....

 

I have never been totally black out wasted to the point of amnesia (and I used to party). Perhaps I wouldn't remember something until reminded, things might be foggy, but no, never had full amnesia, let alone sex and amnesia.

Then your examples are merely people having drunken sex, Not sure what you are trying to prove?

I said guys who are too drunk to consent are also too drunk to function, never did I say guys who are drunk can't function

 

But of course, I'm no expert. Hence OP should seek legal help

[RecentChange]

I can say I have been around guys who were too drunk to consent, and still functioned sexually. Yes.

 

Again, when we were younger my SO could get so drunk that he could hardly walk or talk, but the equipment still worked.

[frus69]

I can say I have been around guys who were too drunk to consent, and still functioned sexually. Yes.

 

Again, when we were younger my SO could get so drunk that he could hardly walk or talk, but the equipment still worked.

err..whether you can walk or not has nothing to do with the ability to consent???

"Myth: If the assailant, victim, or both are under the influence of drugs or alcohol, the victim is free to consent to sex and the assailant therefore cannot be charged with rape.

Fact: When intoxicated, an individual cannot legally consent to sexual activity. Forcing sex on someone who is too drunk to give consent is still Criminal Sexual Conduct in the Third Degree. Rape is a serious offense, and people who commit crimes while under the influence of alcohol or drugs are not considered free from guilt."

 

 

https://www.stsm.org/myths-and-facts-about-sexual-assault-and-consent

[RecentChange]

Alright my last post because I don't want to hijack any more.

 

You doubted if the equipment would work if too drunk to consent.

 

I am saying I have seen the equipment work well beyond too wasted to consent. In my experience guys can be too drunk to consent, but not too drunk to get an erection

 

Make sense?

[Chi townD]

Do you think the sex would have happened if he was really too drunk to consent as well? because i heard men can't even get hard if they are that drunk.

 

And he remembered they had sex, he knows it so it means he consented it, no?

 

She didn't remember it, only felt sore and he told her this

 

Drunk guys can have sex. Sometimes they just have a hard time having an orgasm. It's called having whiskey d*ck. Whiskey d*ck can come in two categories. Unable to get an erection or unable to have an orgasm.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Chi townD

[Mikau]

err..whether you can walk or not has nothing to do with the ability to consent???

"Myth: If the assailant, victim, or both are under the influence of drugs or alcohol, the victim is free to consent to sex and the assailant therefore cannot be charged with rape.

Fact: When intoxicated, an individual cannot legally consent to sexual activity. Forcing sex on someone who is too drunk to give consent is still Criminal Sexual Conduct in the Third Degree. Rape is a serious offense, and people who commit crimes while under the influence of alcohol or drugs are not considered free from guilt."

 

 

https://www.stsm.org/myths-and-facts-about-sexual-assault-and-consent

You can't claim women can't give consent when slightly intoxicated but require men to be blackout drunk to not be able to give consent. If both parties were intoxicated to whatever degree neither can give affirmative consent.

 

A terrible thing happened to/by the OP, but let's not throw the word rape out here without having all the information.

[kailah]

My brother and dad helped me move my stuff out. I’m going to stay with my brother and his fiance for now. She’s really nice to me.

 

I needed to go out and get a couple things but I couldn’t bring myself to do it. I was scared I’d run into someone who read my ex’s FB post or that he talked to. I just couldn’t bring myself to do it. I’ve also been having this weird… I don’t know if it’s a fear, more of a anxiety… That I’ll somehow run into the guy. Probably would never happen but I’m anxious that it will.

 

My brother wants me to figure out who the guy is and figure out what happened and make sure I know how to contact him in case I’m pregnant. And my dad wants me to never try and contact him, even if I’m pregnant. Both agree to cease all contact will my ex and make sure he cannot contact me. It’s really hard to do that. Even after all he said and did to me, I still miss him - just not that version of him.

[AMJ]

You have anxiety because you're the victim of trauma on a few levels. I hope you find some counseling, while your family seems to be supportive, they may not be equipped to give you the type of help you need right now.

[kailah]

You have anxiety because you're the victim of trauma on a few levels. I hope you find some counseling, while your family seems to be supportive, they may not be equipped to give you the type of help you need right now.

 

My doctor set me up an appointment to go talk to someone. Hopefully it will help.

[Scarlett.O'hara]

My doctor set me up an appointment to go talk to someone. Hopefully it will help.

 

That's a really good idea. I know that your family may not being saying all the right things, but it is still great to know they have your back. It is times like these that show you who really cares and who doesn't.

 

I'm sure you miss your ex terribly right now, but you are right to keep your distance. He sounds very spiteful and unpredictable right now.

 

You are doing really well. Keep your head high no matter what.

[Honoré9]

My brother wants me to figure out who the guy is and figure out what happened and make sure I know how to contact him in case I’m pregnant. And my dad wants me to never try and contact him, even if I’m pregnant.

 

If you do wind up pregnant [and choose birth] it is not YOUR choice on whether this man gets to be a father or not. He already is. As soon as you chose birth for the child he becomes a father just as much as you become a mother. What he chooses to do with that role is his choice (being in the child's life or being a monthly check). But you do not get to chose. It is his child just as much as it is yours. If you believe there is a reason (such as the suggested date rape) that he is not safe the have around the child then that is up the a judge to decide.

[greaterdevil]

Kailah--

 

Glad to hear you are with your brother and his fiancé. Thank you so much for taking the time to keep us all updated on your situation.

 

You are doing a really good job. You were honest with your ex, when it took more courage than most people have. Now you are sticking with family--I'm really glad to hear that you're with your brother and his fiancé. You have even made an appointment with your doctor to talk with someone about your anxiety.

 

I'm still heartbroken that all this happened to you, but I (and most of us) appreciate you letting us know how you're doing. It's hard to get so invested in strangers on the Internet only to lose the signal halfway through the story.

 

I am looking forward to the day where you no longer feel anxious about going to the store, but just know that it will come in time. On the off chance that you are pregnant, you get to do whatever you decide is best for you, regardless of what anyone on here says.

 

Keep doing what you're doing and thanks again for the update.

[salparadise]

You can't claim women can't give consent when slightly intoxicated but require men to be blackout drunk to not be able to give consent. If both parties were intoxicated to whatever degree neither can give affirmative consent.

 

A terrible thing happened to/by the OP, but let's not throw the word rape out here without having all the information.

 

Many of these women's organizations are only able to see this issue from one perspective. There is a huge amount of ambiguity in how society actually interprets consensual-nonconsensual depending on a myriad of factors, yet they seek to have us all adopt one rigid standard, and that would be the most conservative one favoring ease of obtaining convictions and switching the burden of proof to the defendant.

 

I have a 20 year old daughter, so I definitely empathize with the women's point of view, however, we all must maintain objectivity and rationality when considering what changes can be made to standards and laws.

 

The organizations say that only 2 percent of rape reports are false. What they don't say out loud is that they consider that a small enough number to justify considering the accused to be guilty until proven innocent.

 

It's not hard to agree that anyone who is passing out drunk is unable to give consent, but that's not what they're advocating; they use the term "intoxicated" or "under the influence" in such a way that any woman who has had a couple of beers can get a case of next-day remorse and claim rape and make it stick.

 

Hell, this could be much more effective than divorce... woman drinks two or three beers, has sex with hubby, and next day has him thrown in the pokey for 20 years. No custody battle, no property division, no waiting period... and the DA prosecutes so she doesn't even need a lawyer.

 

And on LS it's even worse... can't remember, unsure if it was consensual... obviously rape. Lock the guy up and throw away the key.

 

On that stsm.org page they disparage advising women to take precautions because...

"Advising people to follow "guidelines" to avoid being sexually assaulted puts the responsibility of the assault on the victim. Instead, it is the responsibility of the assailant to avoid sexually assaulting others..."

 

This one statement shows just how irrational people can be when stumping for a cause and are this cocksure of their own righteousness.

[DreamP]

I just saw this post and wanted to comment.

 

First, you did nothing wrong. For everybody who questioned why you didn't go to the doctor sooner or question it was rape, etc. They haven't been in that situation. What do they say about hind sight. You were in an incredibly stressful and unfamiliar situation. You did the best you could. Don't ever doubt yourself on that.

 

Was it rape or not, it doesn't matter. You need to live your life. Don't look back.

 

Regarding Plan B, I worked on this drug before it was even on the market. It is just as effective the entire 5 days. Probably even longer. So don't worry that you waited too long. I'm not saying it works all the time, I'm just saying you waiting over 3 days won't decrease it's effectiveness.

 

Find another doctor, someone who isn't so judgmental. In the US, Planned Parenthood is really good for this type of stuff. Try to find a friend to confide in and have them go with you to all the appointments.

 

Your ex is an a-hole. His comments about rape are terrible.

 

And for all other posters who are interested in having a debate about rape/consent/alcohol, please start another thread. The OP is going through a very difficult time. Please don't use her one forum to lay out her grief as your soapbox.

[itmustbeme]

Do you think the sex would have happened if he was really too drunk to consent as well? because i heard men can't even get hard if they are that drunk.

 

And he remembered they had sex, he knows it so it means he consented it, no?

 

She didn't remember it, only felt sore and he told her this

 

Well you would be wrong. Men can get hard even black out drunk. I was blacked out Drunk and woke up having sex with a girl in my class. She was sober and drove me to her place. Normally I would not have slept with her but I don't remember anything until I woke up and she was on me. I have no doubt I was willing but I had no idea how I got to her place.

 

I really never understood how an intoxicated male is supposed to be held accountable for their actions but it does not apply to women.

 

Now a date rape drug is totally different. But although some men will not get hard due to alcohol there are others that will.

[RecentChange]

 

Regarding Plan B, I worked on this drug before it was even on the market. It is just as effective the entire 5 days. Probably even longer. So don't worry that you waited too long. I'm not saying it works all the time, I'm just saying you waiting over 3 days won't decrease it's effectiveness.

 

Find another doctor, someone who isn't so judgmental. In the US, Planned Parenthood is really good for this type of stuff. Try to find a friend to confide in and have them go with you to all the appointments.

 

Yes this! Thank you for chiming in. Everything I have read supports what you say, it's only legalities that mandate a three day window.

 

I am disappointed with your doctors.