Why is the WP so angry when they are the cheaters?

[Betrayed&Stayed]

Lady you must be a cheater

 

Correct. 99% of the time it's the cheater that suggests that the faithful/betrayed partner should "take the high road" and leave the cheating couple alone.

[dreamingoftigers]

Chumplady has a lot of support for the freshly betrayed.

 

Have a look.

 

I don't suggest staying there forever because it can really make you jaded on relationships hearing how everyone got screwed over by a cheater. But it sure helps when you first get there!

 

Google chumplady.

[Sunkissedpatio]

Correct. 99% of the time it's the cheater that suggests that the faithful/betrayed partner should "take the high road" and leave the cheating couple alone.

 

Well of course the cheaters want to be left alone they are living in their lies and don't need to be reminded of their despicable actions. Who needs that kind of downer?

 

Then again can't blame the affair partner they too are blinded by all the pathological lies and general mindfckery, you'd be extremely naive and even stupid to think the lies of a cheater are unidirectional. Anyone who has the capability to lie and deceive and lead a second life is doing it across the board. As the affair partner if you want delude yourself into thinking you are getting an honest victim? Go right ahead it's your life! If you believe in unicorns you shoukd have no issue accepting a pathological liar.

 

Judging by their reaction when I confronted in the store and told her her new amazing man had been sleeping with me and engaged just weeks prior while he was with her, it was clear to see the mindfckery didn't stop with me. He lied to her too. The left the store arguing for a far as I could see them walk off.

[ladydesigner]

Lady you must be a cheater because most of what you are playing devil's advocate on is coming from your preconceived notions and experiential biase because you keep insisting in things I've already clarified:

 

There are no "separation of assets" that was done when he moved out and I was more than generous during the split the turd broke into my points profile and stole my points. Points I offered to give him when we were splitting and he refused because he claimed I should keep them. He just so "happened to change his mind" a day after I confronted him with the affair told him I wanted nothing more to do with him and put a wrench in his plans to eat cake! So no I am not going out of my way to bug him I am going out of my way to ignore him since and he is trying to get revenge.

 

Before that he wanted to claw back money for bills that were our bills while we were still living together and his responsibility to pay considering I footed the full mortgage payments past two months.

One of the bills I did keep tied to his account because I knew he'd reach out to straighten that out and that was my in to co front him about what I knew re the affair. Remember, he blocked me from everything so I had no way of knowing when or how he'd read/react the confrontation of affair.

 

I didn't stalk them into a store in fact he moved to the other side of town he and his tramp came into a store in my neighbourhood I saw them walk in and followed to confront.

 

The one thing I did do was pay an investigator to follow him to get to the bottom of what wAs this "some things I need to see through first" in response to my apology letter. And I found out what he needed to see through alright, kinda hard to see through our relationship future when there is a pssy in the way. No regrets about having him followed I'd still be waiting for that response beating myself up for all the things I did wrong thinking I chased a good man away when in fact I got rid of a maggot. I'd call him a POS but sht is too good for him.

 

I don't know where you get this idea I am here looking to change him, I'm looking to understand the mind of what drives a person to despicable actions and on top of it defer all blame onto the victim. And ya I am the victim because he cheated, he lied, he lead me on and wanted his cake right till the end. So forgive me if I'm one month out and I am not ready to "move on and let it go" If I were at a point where that were true I wouldn't be in here seeking answers and subjecting myself to ridiculous comments like yours.

 

Yep you gotta let some of these comments go in one ear and out the other because they are coming from unapologetic posters for their own roles they play. OP you have been given great advice. I'm sorry I was unable to come back and explain my comment.

 

Bottom Line= Cheaters don't like to look like the bad guy so they blame someone else... in this case it is you.

 

Run like hell from this man and stay in therapy, you will meet someone much more amazing in your future and thank god you didn't marry and have kids with this a**.

[usa1ah]

Hi I have been on this site for a few weeks and posting my story in the breakups section but I am seeing there is a lot of sound advice being given in this area of the forum and would love your input. You can read about my story here I won't go into all the details here.

 

Long story short my fiance and I were in the middle of a sudden breakup he decided to move out and we were working on fixing things with the plan that I would eventually move in to his new place. Then he suddenly decided he did not want to work on things, pulled a bait and switch on me and started to blame me for all of our issues and the demise of the relationship. I found out a few weeks later that he was with someone a woman he met at his work, and I believe they were in an affair leading up to our split but I am not certain if they had a full on affair or an EA, either way he was out and dating her two days after he dumped me.

 

Can one of you insightful folks please explain to me where all this man's anger towards me comes from, why he is blaming me for all of our issues, why is he on a vendetta trying to get revenge on me by being petty and doing very hurtful mean things to show me our relationship meant less than garbage to him when he is the one who deceived me turned out to be a huge pathological liar and cheat?

 

Please don't tell me it doesn't matter now we are separated and done, I need to understand why he has so much anger toward me. I need to understand the mind of the cheater if at all to give me some respite from the deep pain I am in.

 

 

 

Might be the only way for the guilt he is feeling to keep from consuming him. He has to go off the deep end in one direction to keep from being nice. I do not know, but I am glad you see the real him before it is to late. I know that doesn't help with the pain you feel but I'm still glad all the same.

 

 

I would say walk away and never look back. There is someone out there for you that will make you for get he ever existed. Just take time to heal and find yourself again.

[Sunkissedpatio]

I did get a lot of great insight indeed. This thread has been invaluable in terms of shared experiences and observations.

 

I think I understand the whole anger thing much better now. In reading some of the other stories on this board and seeing how many of the cheaters don't feel any remorse or guilt and go as far as questioning "is this even normal to feel no guilt" across the board it seems it comes with the territory of deception.

 

I saw an interesting doc on Netflix a few weeks ago called (dis) Honesty - The truth behind lies. And the premise of the scientific research is that lies create a neurological response in the brain, meaning the bigger the lie and the less frequently we tell lies (this does not account for every day white lies) when we do tell a lie it creates that spike in the brain. What they also found is that the more you do it the lower the response in the brain to the point where it becomes and feels natural with no emotional response. It also found that lies and deceit are normalized by social conditioning, so if you surround yourself with others who do it then you won't feel as bad doing it too. But on the flip side they did experiments where people had the chance to cheat and lie but when reminded of a moral code refrained from it, even if money was involved.

 

This would explain why so many cheaters who also happen to be pathological liars (let's call a spade a spade) and deceivers have no response to the lies they the tell, feel no guilt and can even justify in their heads why they are telling the lies and feel the betrayed isn't "worthy of the truth"

 

I get it ok, love and that initial attraction is intoxicating it's a very powerful thing it is what we live for. and people do and can fall in love outside of a marriage or partnership.

 

What I don't get is why ruin another person's life in the process by leading them on and wanting to have the best of both worlds, that to me is the epitome of narcissism and it's unforgivable.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Sunkissedpatio

[heartwhole]

Short answer -- it's a defense mechanism employed by someone who is not in touch with his feelings or motivations.

 

I hope you are in counseling for yourself. This relationship sounds like it was toxic. That doesn't mean you wake up and think, "Oh, good, I'm glad my fiancee of three years cheated on me so now I'm not in a toxic relationship any more." It doesn't work that way. You'll need to grieve it, but also come to see what elements of it were not healthy. You'll want to build a good foundation of self-care so that future relationships will be based on mutual respect, healthy boundaries, good communication, etc.

 

You have every right to be angry, but try to step back and stop the vicious cycle of one-upping each other. You don't have to be healed to stop engaging.

[S2B]

To deflect...

 

It works most of the time. The anger takes the focus off of what they did that was wrong... So the focus becomes about dealing with the angry person.

 

It's still a 1000% selfish move.

[Sunkissedpatio]

Hearthole been in therapy for 5 weeks now she has counseled me through all my experiences since before he moved out.

 

Had an interesting session tonight, unlike some of the armchair "psychologists" here who suggest "let it go it's not worth it it was toxic anyway, time to move on it doesn't matter" also trying to minimize the betrayal part of how things ended and use a trojan horse tactic to deflect, she supports the path I am on to seek answers and to also grief while doing so. Apparently it is totally natural, then again what would I know this is my first time for this crappy situation.

 

I have been exploring a lot of self-doubt and self-blame that as she tells me she has seen countless times in her practice where the betrayed partner believes all the garbage being deflected from the betrayer. I had a bit of a eureka moment tonight, and no matter how you slice it, it took two to get to the point we did but it took ONE to make the decision to introduce a third party into the mix and show 0 ownership of their actions. As she keeps reassuring me no one makes anyone cheat, cheating is a selfish an personal decision that we can all make.

 

She told me all the things you all said about anger and what drives that.

 

I told her about a coworker I had about 6 months ago who paid special attention to me, also married, very dynamic, interesting and good looking funny an very fun man. It got to the point where we couldn't even discuss work topics and stand next to each other because he would get fluttery and nervous and I would get shy, which I am far from it. I felt extremely guilty for enjoying his attention and for looking forward to seeing him and having moments of banter. I found myself thinking about him at home.

 

One night I came home form work and was sitting across from my ex and decided to look at him again, really look at him again like I did in those early months and guess what? All that spark I was feeling for my co-worker instantly transferred on to him. I set my mind to it, I decided no one and no man outside of us would interfere and take up my mental energy to the point where it would take the place of my man. and that is exactly what I did. I actually felt "in love" with him again, after many months of feeling a more tranquil kind of love.

 

It's absolutely bull**** we are helpless to the charms of others or that it "just happens" complete BULLSHT If you allow it you want out, so get out stop the mindfckery with your partners.

 

 

 

S2B she said very much what you just posted here, the anger and vengeful acts keep reeling me back so I have to break NC and speculate help deflect his actions and distracts me from the real issue at hand: that he turned out to be "bad news" as she put it.

 

She also cannot figure out why he would lead me on as he did, keep showing in words and actions he was still in with no signs leading up to it. There was no signs of detachment at ALL from him.

 

 

There is no good way to end a relationship but introducing betrayal and leading another on is exponentially worse than detaching. That's a fact. Never been betrayed before and as hard as splits are betrayal just adds another layer of uncertainty and complexity and pain that I am just not familiar with. To add insult to injury compound that with acts of aggression, anger and vengeance to that and well....here I am.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Sunkissedpatio

[Liam1]

She also cannot figure out why he would lead me on as he did, keep showing in words and actions he was still in with no signs leading up to it. There was no signs of detachment at ALL from him.

 

 

Sunkissedpatio:

 

If your counselor actually said the above, then she is a very inexperienced marriage or relationship counselor.

 

That described behavior is very common in an affair. It does not take place in all, but it is still a common behavior in some people engaged in infidelity.

 

Also, a good counselor will insist that you take a look at your own behaviors in the relationship, with an honest eye.

 

Otherwise, you are also taking zero responsibility for the failure of the relationship just as your BF is.

 

This a not a productive relationship dynamic, and one that a good counselor would suggest you work on to change.

 

Otherwise you will be doomed to bringing that unproductive dynamic into your next relationship.

 

If your counselor is taking your side too much, she is not being helpful.

 

In any type of relationship there are always two sides to an issue.

 

Perhaps your only foible in the relationship was that you let your BF treat you as a doormat, or perhaps it is something else that you were doing that upset him but neither of you were able to communicate it productively.

 

But a good counselor will address your issues, not simply champion your own thought process.

 

A good counselor will challenge your thought process and your own view of yourself in the relationship.

 

If she doesn't she is not earning her money.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Liam1

[Sunkissedpatio]

I never said I was seeing a "marriage counsellor" so where are you getting that from? She is a psychologist who practices CBT.

 

Boy, those are a LOT of conclusions you are drawing based on two comments I shared she made on the topic of this thread. Thank you for your concern but I am getting exactly what I need to get out of my sessions, which is to not make the same mistake again.

 

Lastly, if you had read my story he had moved out and had absolutely no reason to continue on both relationships, so that is perplexing even for a professional who has seen it all. The detachment is a definite sign someone is checking out and on to the next. Just read all the stories on this board alone. We are not talking about a serial cheater who is pathologically duplicitous we are talking about a person who had not checked out in any shape way or form and that is odd behaviour according to her. Typically the signs are there.

 

You are welcome to disagree with her observations but I believe you are making many unfounded assumptions with very little information to claim my therapist "doesn't know what she is saying" and that she is not very good.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Sunkissedpatio

[S2B]

so I have to break NC and speculate help deflect his actions and distracts me from the real issue at hand: that he turned out to be "bad news" as she put it.

 

 

No - you do NOT HAVE TO break NC. That is something you DO have control over - your actions - the way YOU participate!

 

No response is a great response in this case.

 

It works - I've done it. Ignore...it's that easy! They create that drama and they get left with their drama.

 

I don't allow anyone to toss their drama into me anymore...well, people try...but when there is no reaction or action at all they find a new person to dump onto.

 

Yes, it's the reaction they thrive on - don't do or say anything = they go looking for a new victim.

[Sunkissedpatio]

Very true S2B by breaking contact in the case of him stealing my points from my account for example, I mean also breaking my thought process and emotional progress by introducing more despicable actions to go over n my head . I let the rewards company deal with him but it still sets me back mentally to see he is doing things to try to hurt me, which they do like it or not, affect me, while I'm working to move on. Which is why I posted this thread.

[S2B]

Very true S2B by breaking contact in the case of him stealing my points from my account for example, I mean also breaking my thought process and emotional progress by introducing more despicable actions to go over n my head . I let the rewards company deal with him but it still sets me back mentally to see he is doing things to try to hurt me, which they do like it or not, affect me, while I'm working to move on. Which is why I posted this thread.

 

Always allow the authorities to deal with him if he steals from you.

 

Let him have consequences from his wrong actions...do not engage with him at all. He wants the drama - don't hand him that.

 

Doing nothing IS something! In this case especially.

[Sunkissedpatio]

You're absolutely right S2B my therapist also said part of the anger is that I've gone no contact and took my power back vs waiting for him to respond to the letter so for a codependent who is also being narcissistic he has depleted my emotional supply and is on to the next emotional supply of ego stroking.

[Sunkissedpatio]

Sunkissedpatio:

 

 

Perhaps your only foible in the relationship was that you let your BF treat you as a doormat, or perhaps it is something else that you were doing that upset him but neither of you were able to communicate it productively.

 

Can you please explain to me how you came to the conclusion that perhaps I was a doormat? If that were true then why am I "blaming him for everything" according to you? By definition, a doormat is a person who believes they are always in the wrong and is a victim.

 

On the other hand I'm the one in therapy not him so if I were truly out to blame him for our entire relationship demise (like he is doing) why am I dropping hundreds of dollars a week in therapy when I could be jumping head first into another romance to drown out my past instead?

 

You can't have it both ways, your logic makes no sense. It's stupid for you to say I should be in therapy to fix myself. Clearly that's why I'm there.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Sunkissedpatio

[Liam1]

Can you please explain to me how you came to the conclusion that perhaps I was a doormat? If that were true then why am I "blaming him for everything" according to you? By definition, a doormat is a person who believes they are always in the wrong and is a victim.

 

On the other hand I'm the one in therapy not him so if I were truly out to blame him for our entire relationship demise (like he is doing) why am I dropping hundreds of dollars a week in therapy when I could be jumping head first into another romance to drown out my past instead?

 

You can't have it both ways, your logic makes no sense. It's stupid for you to say I should be in therapy to fix myself. Clearly that's why I'm there.

 

I think you are blowing the doormat comment out of proportion.

 

The comment was just to point out that MAYBE you ARE NOT to blame.

 

Being a doormat is equated with being TOO NICE in a relationship.

 

I was trying to give you an out and you jump to conclusions and attack without asking for clarification. Communication is key in a good relationship and asking for clarification before getting angry is a good communication style.

 

I never said I was seeing a "marriage counsellor" so where are you getting that from? She is a psychologist who practices CBT.

My marriage counselor is a licensed psychologist. Many are and all work with unmarried people too. I think that was a very logical conclusion to draw based on your comments about group and individual therapy.

 

Thank you for your concern but I am getting exactly what I need to get out of my sessions, which is to not make the same mistake again.

 

That was my point. Counseling/therapy whatever you choose to call it will help you to NOT make the same mistakes again. Isn't that what I said?

 

Lastly, if you had read my story he had moved out and had absolutely no reason to continue on both relationships, so that is perplexing even for a professional who has seen it all.

He had no reason. How does the counselor know that? Did she counsel him, too? If so that is not clear, but IF SHE IS NOT COUNSELING HIM, she has no way of knowing what is going on his mind. Why is that perplexing to a psychologist? It should not be.

 

You are welcome to disagree with her observations but I believe you are making many unfounded assumptions with very little information to claim my therapist "doesn't know what she is saying" and that she is not very good.

It was just my opinion. I thought you said we are welcome to disagree.

 

With that said, I hope you find the answers you are looking for. I will not be checking this thread anymore.

[MzMelanie]

Sunkissedpatio - First of all sorry for your pain and all you are going through. I cannot stand the advice of just move on, get over it, etc. You were engaged and thought you were going to spend the rest of your life with this man. That's a huge deal and it will take a long time to heal. Your break up is still very fresh too and only a few weeks. I am 5 months out of a 10 year relationship myself and was engaged part of that time and am still struggling. I as well have a complicated history in my relationship which I won't get into. But in the end my ex left me for someone else too. The pain and feelings of rejection and being replaced are horrible and unless you have experienced it yourself you truly don't understand what it feels like. To try to answer your original question I'm sure your ex feels a tremendous amount of guilt and is expressing it as anger towards you. He is not taking responsibility for his actions and just deflecting it back to you through anger.

[Sunkissedpatio]

Thank you MzMelanie for your words of support and for also sharing your story. I'm feeling a bit demoralized hearing you are 6 months out and still feeling the residual pain from your situation. I[m sorry, and yes that is hard to let got of the images I had in my head of growing old with this man. We were very good companions, we were very close and good friends, we were super supportive, protective and caring of each other and very attracted to each other... those are the kinds of things that I envisioned. He used to tell me he could see himself chasing my "sexy butt" around the house naked when I was 70 years old. Far too many good memories to just wipe out in three weeks because someone disappointed you in the worst possible way.

 

Anyway... I feel so much better than when I first came to this forum and better yet since I posted this thread. For the most part what I am reading here from very kind folks and smart and super insightful people helping me tremendously even the things I don't really want to hear help but that is why I posted my situation.

 

I get that people are trying to help but I don't understand what the point of getting on here and telling someone "time to move on"? If the question or topic annoys you because you feel looking from the outside in that the person should be over things already, well why say anything at all?

 

I used to look down on people who were betrayed and took a spouse or a partner back. I used see them as really weak. Now that I have been through what I have in the last 4 years, put up with as much as I did at times, learned to forgive things I probably shouldn't have and found out I was betrayed I can be brutally honest in saying that in my moments of weakness, at first, I was actually entertaining the idea of taking mine back. And we don't even have children, nor were we married yet. I can see why many people choose to work through the infidelity and don't want to let go.

 

Of course for me it was a sheer moment of weak thinking and plagued with so much pain I couldn't think straight because once I thought it through, once I envisioned what that would look like after picking up beyond the betrayal and knowing how I am, there is just no way I could put myself through a life of distrust to the extend that it would be if i had to learn to trust someone again after that. It is just too insurmountable a feat for me, personally, to even consider. But I can see why people do it.

 

Important life lesson here.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Sunkissedpatio

[merrmeade]

Omg exactly!! He was on Effexor. He went on Wellbutrin at the mid point of being on Effexor claiming he felt his libido was slowing but our sex life hadn't changed it was great actually he was more apathetic in general though didn't want to do as much slept more. So he tried Wellbutrin with the Effexor for those two weeks it was like he was on speed raging and on edge and angry at everything snapping even having erectile issues. I begged him to go off it so he did.

My son was on Effexor, and it took him a couple of years to get off. Every time he tried, he'd be a mess. THe explanation is something like - Whatever brain chemical or function the medicine is simulating, in some people the synapses have completely forgotten what they're supposed to do on their own, so the person can't stop taking it. It takes a physiological toll.

[merrmeade]

It's called "cognitive dissonance". He cheated and that goes against his personal ethics. So rather than accept that, he makes you to be the "bad guy" to ease his own guilt. It's a psychological way of justifying his actions to himself.

 

This is very common with cheaters who have said "I would never cheat".

This ^^^ is it. They have to blame someone or something else for being such a--hole. Of course, it's irrational and that's why it feels so incongruous to you. THe thinking gets so distorted that reality even changes - what really happened, what you're really like. He needs to make you into a bitch, so he's justified. I'm sure he has a some sense of entitlement to those rewards on your credit card. Somehow he's convinced himself you owe them to him. It would be sad if it wasn't at your expense, which makes it outrageous.

[Sunkissedpatio]

My son was on Effexor, and it took him a couple of years to get off. Every time he tried, he'd be a mess. THe explanation is something like - Whatever brain chemical or function the medicine is simulating, in some people the synapses have completely forgotten what they're supposed to do on their own, so the person can't stop taking it. It takes a physiological toll.

 

This is consistent with everything I have read on Effexor. When he went to see our family doctor it was while he had hit the low and was unemployed for so long the idea was our doc could refer him to a therapist, he needed desperately to talk to a third party. I was tapped out on trying to be there for him emotionally and I had started to frustrate him rather than help. So I pushed for him to try to talk to someone. Instead, he came home with these pills and without as much as doing a minimal scan of research on the net for what the meds were about, started taking them that same evening.

 

I read up on it a lot. I read a lot of horror stories, of people trying to get off and couldn't due to the tremendous side effects the brain zaps etc. There is even a whole forum/site dedicated to spouses who lost their partners to infidelity or other behaviours that were completely out of character due to the medication. Yup, thanks Effexor!

 

I told him this and he didn't seem to care because he didn't think a pill would change him "that much" he just wanted out of the slump and that's it. So the plan was I would monitor any major changes in him and that would be his cue to come off the meds. When he started to get more aggressive and mean and dirtier in the way he would fight I brought that to his attention but he didn't seem to care, he also became apathetic in general he "seemed bored or something" though still very affectionate and our sex life didn't change so I would ask him about that but he would claim he just felt mellow but his feelings were not changing so I believed him.

 

Maybe some day when he tries to come off it he will realize what happened during his time on it.

 

That'll be interesting to see when he does try to come off it.

Edited June 23, 2016 by Sunkissedpatio

[merrmeade]

I was a little confused by your post - whether you're saying he was mean, etc. on AND off Effexor because, for someone messed up by depression, NOT taking anything is the first problem. In fact, Effexor works, no doubt about it, and if he was taking his meds properly I don't think taking it would cause the strange behavior.

 

It's the withdrawal side effects that wreak havoc - along with the depression itself. I forgot about the term "brain zaps" but that was it and a lot of other miserable stuff. Going off too fast does it. But it also takes an inordinate amount of time for the neurons to find their 'normal' again in some people, which throws them into the nightmarish land of the brain zaps (why some decide Effexor=evil). My son had to take a teeny tiny piece daily for a long time just to prevent withdrawal side effects. This provided no clinical benefits and further complicated control of the depression.

[Sunkissedpatio]

Taking it DID cause strange behavior in him, he became more aggressive, really mean and extremely verbally abusive he would say the most viscous and mean things to me in a fight after once he was on Effexor.

 

He also was blase about a lot of things. But it seemed to have triggered more anger and impatience in him where as before he was quite patient and more insecure and jealous, now even at work he would tell me stories of how he would treat his staff that seemed out of character for him and really out of place for the work place.

 

The positive is that he was far less paranoid and insecure, as I mentioned, so a lot of the problems we had that were created due to his insecurities and paranoid ideas that I would leave him for someone else etc. went away "for the most part" I say that because he still got insecure at times he just handled it differently.

 

He never tried to go off it even though it was intended for him to be on it only a few months and to get him out of the unemployment depression/slump. Doc tried to suggest he go off it 5 months in, he insisted he wanted to stay on.

[ladydesigner]

Sunkissedpatio:

 

If your counselor actually said the above, then she is a very inexperienced marriage or relationship counselor.

 

That described behavior is very common in an affair. It does not take place in all, but it is still a common behavior in some people engaged in infidelity.

Also, a good counselor will insist that you take a look at your own behaviors in the relationship, with an honest eye.

Otherwise, you are also taking zero responsibility for the failure of the relationship just as your BF is.

 

This a not a productive relationship dynamic, and one that a good counselor would suggest you work on to change.

 

Otherwise you will be doomed to bringing that unproductive dynamic into your next relationship.

 

If your counselor is taking your side too much, she is not being helpful.

 

In any type of relationship there are always two sides to an issue.

 

Perhaps your only foible in the relationship was that you let your BF treat you as a doormat, or perhaps it is something else that you were doing that upset him but neither of you were able to communicate it productively.

 

But a good counselor will address your issues, not simply champion your own thought process.

 

A good counselor will challenge your thought process and your own view of yourself in the relationship.

 

If she doesn't she is not earning her money.

 

That's all fine an dandy for both to go over the issues of the R if they wanted to save it. One person has to deal with why they had an A and that is solely on the WS and the reason is not the BS.