Would YOU consider this cheating? So ....

[merrmeade]

We talked for a bit today when we had some time alone. I explained my hurt, my lain, my perception of everything. I tried to explain it clearly so that he could possibly begin to see how awful he has made me feel. By the end of the convo he did say he didn't realize just how bad his comments to her were until I told him. He didn't perceive them as being as bad as they are.

 

He says he doesn't know *why* he crosses those boundaries. He doesn't understand himself and says he is 100% happy with me and our marriage. To me, those are contradictory things: what he said in his messages & being 100% happy. They just don't go together.

 

He says he'll go to counseling. He's sorry and will do whatever it takes because he wants to be married. I just told him his words are empty because his actions show me otherwise. And that he'll have to try and prove himself to me over time. But that there are no guarantees from me as far as the outcome. If he can't figure it why he acts this way behind my back as well as figuring out how to prevent it from happening again, then I'm not staying married to him. I'm not setting a time frame right now; I will see how things progress in counseling.

I KNEW I was right about you, rodeo! I worked a while on some advice about how to talk to him, which I'll go ahead and paste below. I didn't even get to the end to recommend counseling for him. But in the meantime you did it exactly as I was hoping you could and he has agreed to the counseling. Best place possible right now imho.

 

Main thing I really want to convey to you, r, is to trust yourself. You have a great sense of self, ideals and relationships. I think you guys will do well in marriage counseling.

 

So here's what I was working on. There's some validation in there and I don't know what else. For what it's worth at this point ...

Acting on her innate sense of appropriate/inappropriate boundaries, rodeo's in a holding pattern with this no bed/no talk policy—her own intuitive version of the 180 (even if he initiated the sofa move)—giving us blow by blow updates and asking what the hell to do next.

 

Another example of her great sense of who she is and what matters is this gem:

No, I haven't asked her what her perception of it was because I didn't think her perception mattered. I think MY perception of it is what's important.

So

I'll try not to waste time because at any moment you or he could say or do something that would be really hard to come back from.

- I think you're clear enough (whether you know it or not), that you can sit down with him and talk. I have faith in you that the thoughts will order themselves and the words will represent what's important.

 

The main thing you need to communicate to him - since he's asking idiotic things like - oh, when you decide if you're divorcing me or not... - is either that you've decided or you haven't! if you've somehow figured out without a doubt what you think must happen, then that's what you say; no advice needed.

 

But if you haven't, say that - and as much or as little as you can handle or feel like he deserves but realizing that he will also have a reaction to that.

 

I think you need to figure out how to organize your next moves. Try to do it yourself because I REALLY trust your gut instinct. It's been pretty good

so

far. Otherwise, you only need to say what you think he needs or deserves to know.

 

My suggestion - if you're up to it - would be:

- where things stand for you, i.e., how you've been feeling (briefly);

- what you think you need right now and

- what your conditions are for short-term arrangements.

[That's it - as I said it's unfinished but YOU finished it better...]

Edited June 25, 2016 by merrmeade

[Mrs. John Adams]

We talked for a bit today when we had some time alone. I explained my hurt, my lain, my perception of everything. I tried to explain it clearly so that he could possibly begin to see how awful he has made me feel. By the end of the convo he did say he didn't realize just how bad his comments to her were until I told him. He didn't perceive them as being as bad as they are.

 

He says he doesn't know *why* he crosses those boundaries. He doesn't understand himself and says he is 100% happy with me and our marriage. To me, those are contradictory things: what he said in his messages & being 100% happy. They just don't go together.

 

He says he'll go to counseling. He's sorry and will do whatever it takes because he wants to be married. I just told him his words are empty because his actions show me otherwise. And that he'll have to try and prove himself to me over time. But that there are no guarantees from me as far as the outcome. If he can't figure it why he acts this way behind my back as well as figuring out how to prevent it from happening again, then I'm not staying married to him. I'm not setting a time frame right now; I will see how things progress in counseling.

 

this sounds perfect... It sounds like you made a lot of progress today and will be able to work toward a resolution.

 

Keep an open mind....and remember that it will take both of you working toward each other to overcome the hurt he caused.

[Secondrodeo]

this sounds perfect... It sounds like you made a lot of progress today and will be able to work toward a resolution.

 

Keep an open mind....and remember that it will take both of you working toward each other to overcome the hurt he caused.

 

Yed, I think we are at least inching a bit toward him recognizing the significance of what he said and how it hurts. Hopefully. Counseling will further clarify that and help him to figure out all the "whys" for his ****ty behavior.

[Secondrodeo]

I KNEW I was right about you, rodeo! I worked a while on some advice about how to talk to him, which I'll go ahead and paste below. I didn't even get to the end to recommend counseling for him. But in the meantime you did it exactly as I was hoping you could and he has agreed to the counseling. Best place possible right now imho.

 

Main thing I really want to convey to you, r, is to trust yourself. You have a great sense of self, ideals and relationships. I think you guys will do well in marriage counseling.

 

So here's what I was working on. There's some validation in there and I don't know what else. For what it's worth at this point ...

Acting on her innate sense of appropriate/inappropriate boundaries, rodeo's in a holding pattern with this no bed/no talk policy—her own intuitive version of the 180 (even if he initiated the sofa move)—giving us blow by blow updates and asking what the hell to do next.

 

Another example of her great sense of who she is and what matters is this gem:

So

I'll try not to waste time because at any moment you or he could say or do something that would be really hard to come back from.

- I think you're clear enough (whether you know it or not), that you can sit down with him and talk. I have faith in you that the thoughts will order themselves and the words will represent what's important.

 

The main thing you need to communicate to him - since he's asking idiotic things like - oh, when you decide if you're divorcing me or not... - is either that you've decided or you haven't! if you've somehow figured out without a doubt what you think must happen, then that's what you say; no advice needed.

 

But if you haven't, say that - and as much or as little as you can handle or feel like he deserves but realizing that he will also have a reaction to that.

 

I think you need to figure out how to organize your next moves. Try to do it yourself because I REALLY trust your gut instinct. It's been pretty good

so

far. Otherwise, you only need to say what you think he needs or deserves to know.

 

My suggestion - if you're up to it - would be:

- where things stand for you, i.e., how you've been feeling (briefly);

- what you think you need right now and

- what your conditions are for short-term arrangements.

[That's it - as I said it's unfinished but YOU finished it better...]

 

Dang, Merrmeade, you're awesome. Your words are so kind, thank you. And your advice is objective and matter-of-fact. I kind of want you to be my BFF, lol!

[usa1ah]

Is anyone going to address the fact that he told this other woman that he is in LOVE with her? Doesn't that matter more than some pictures?

 

 

 

Um, he might have been referring to her, well, breast. His wife has always known he had a thing for them. Correction, they all knew he had a thing for them.

[usa1ah]

Ok have I missed something that made this all your husbands fault.

 

 

The four of you were really close to the point you all were comfortable telling sexual jokes and in your words "can be pretty crass'.

 

 

What were the rules in this.

 

 

Did you and your husband seat down and talk about how far the two of you were allowed to go in this?

 

 

Did the two of you seat and say that this is off limits?

 

 

After the four of you were together did you ever say to your husband, you might have gone to far tonight?

 

 

Did you ever set boundaries for the relationship you had with the other couple?

 

 

Your BFF the other wife was ok with it and just wanted you to know what was going on. She wasn't upset about it right?

 

 

So, did you never say anything was out of bounds?

 

 

This has been a big lack of communication between the two of you. He lied when confronted I know that is the issue here. If he didn't know the boundaries with the friend how could he know he was crossing them. You said the four of you were close and your husband had a thing for her breast. Did you ever say he was taking it to far liking her assets?

 

 

If you are wanting to throw this marriage away keep hitting him while he is down and trying to comply with your wishes. You never set clear boundaries with the other couple. You are as much at fault for that as he is. The big thing against him is him lying about it when confronted. He never should have lied.

[S2B]

Um, he might have been referring to her, well, breast. His wife has always known he had a thing for them. Correction, they all knew he had a thing for them.

 

No - he specifically said he was in love with two women.

 

I pointed that out early in the thread but I believe the OP skimmed over that detail. I think it's important - considering he was crossing the line with this "friend".

[usa1ah]

No - he specifically said he was in love with two women.

 

I pointed that out early in the thread but I believe the OP skimmed over that detail. I think it's important - considering he was crossing the line with this "friend".

 

Have you never heard of breast referred to as "the ladies"? Everyone knows he is a boob guy, OP's own words. OP skimmed over it because she knew what he was referring to.

[Mr Blunt]

By OP

He's sorry and will do whatever it takes because he wants to be married

 

 

Talk is cheap but he may be serious. Put his words to the test.

 

Have a postnup drawn up by an attorney and be fair to both sides.

Have the postnup state that in the event of a divorce that you both will receive the assists that you have brought to marriage. None of that 50/50 stuff.

 

If he really means what he says then he should not be worried. The postnup will help him to be accountable and encourage him to change if that is what he needs to do.

 

I hope that he really learned his lesson and never hurts you like that again

because he has a LOT of very good qualities. However, good qualities can and in most cases be negated by betrayal. Most married people that I know have their emotions so destroyed by betrayal that the good qualities are not enough to keep the marriage in good shape.

[merrmeade]

rodeo: Just keep that laser beam on. You know what's important, girl, and I know you know how to say it.

 

I still say this is just the beginning of a new and very important chapter in the story of your marriage and life. You won't be able to minimize this even if you wanted to or let anyone else do so. It's a VERY big deal. That your husband is going to counseling is a definite positive and will fast-track the story.

 

Mine would not go to counseling. I had to be satisfied that my therapist said I'd have to do it for/with him which sounded terrifying. I'd never say or think such a thing, but watching you makes me understand better. Your husband has you. Yes, you've missed a few cues somewhere along the line obviously. (We all did or we wouldn't be here.) But you're a very quick study. The fact that you made the moves you did before you'd really put words to everything is evidence. I think he will come to respect, if he hasn't already, and learn from your clarity about what's important.

 

Now, he's acknowledged his f--kedupness and need for counseling. What about you? You're the one that's been wounded and here you are freaking directing the show! You need to take care of you now. There's been a loss of innocence and trust and there WILL be grieving. There will be confusion about why and for how long. There will be questions about the friend, how you feel about what she did and said when and what you want to do about it. And there will be anger. If there ever was a time for quality MH services, it's now. Counseling provides you with a sounding board and guides you past signposts as you purge and process. You'll be good at it and everyone 'with' you will benefit. it's not just for extreme disfunction and, in fact, works even better with people that ask the right questions.

[Poutrew]

What's the point of all this if, when the next time they all get together, everyone is telling sexually charged jokes, and crass innuendo laden statements, that is, everyone but this woman's husband who will be completely silent and have a look of abject horror on his face, completely fear filled that he will do or say something that will put him in the dog house? If this is to work, then I am afraid you will also have to get rid of these friends - remember, the other woman's husband has no reason to moderate his opinions. So he starts with the panty jokes, and then....?

 

Bad, all the way around.

[ChickiePops]

What's the point of all this if, when the next time they all get together, everyone is telling sexually charged jokes, and crass innuendo laden statements, that is, everyone but this woman's husband who will be completely silent and have a look of abject horror on his face, completely fear filled that he will do or say something that will put him in the dog house? If this is to work, then I am afraid you will also have to get rid of these friends - remember, the other woman's husband has no reason to moderate his opinions. So he starts with the panty jokes, and then....?

 

Bad, all the way around.

 

If he's got any brains in his head at all he will lay off the dirty talk for good with this couple. I still think the friend sounds like she was surreptitiously calling the OP a prude and leading her husband on but I guess I'm alone there. He definitely crossed a boundary and the friend didn't. But if it were me I'd back waaaaaaaay off on the friendship.

[elaine567]

Have you never heard of breast referred to as "the ladies"? Everyone knows he is a boob guy, OP's own words. OP skimmed over it because she knew what he was referring to.

 

 

If he had said "the ladies" then you may have had a point but he said two women and personally I have not head anyone refer to breasts as "women"

[LivingWaterPlease]

To me, it sounds as if all four of you could do with some counseling about establishing boundaries in relationships.

 

The pathway of behavior is > think something > talk about it > do it.

 

There are plenty of interesting and amusing things to talk about without engaging in crass conversation. I don't believe a person needs to be crass to have fun. Why do it at all with anyone?

 

It seems to me if the four of you hadn't already been engaging in crass talk and innuendos this most likely wouldn't have happened. Your husband's conversation with this woman had already gotten pretty personal, though in a joking way. How easy for him to just take it a step further in texts to her.

 

Also, as far as friendships with the opposite sex when one of the parties is taken, why not limit the friendship to communication only when the taken person's SO is present?

 

I'm single and if a married friend's H or a single friend's bf tries to begin a phone, text or email relationship with me, I won't do it. There's no reason to be communicating with a taken man behind his SO's back. That's the way problems begin, imo.

[Mrs. John Adams]

What's the point of all this if, when the next time they all get together, everyone is telling sexually charged jokes, and crass innuendo laden statements, that is, everyone but this woman's husband who will be completely silent and have a look of abject horror on his face, completely fear filled that he will do or say something that will put him in the dog house? If this is to work, then I am afraid you will also have to get rid of these friends - remember, the other woman's husband has no reason to moderate his opinions. So he starts with the panty jokes, and then....?

 

Bad, all the way around.

 

While i understand that this husband crossed a line....and I agree with you. I guess I am putting myself in this situation....and to me I still feel that while lines were crossed...it was not done maliciously. But my opinion seems to be in the minority.

 

We have friends that we have known many years....we vacation together and visit in each others homes...but we live states apart. When we are together...we tease and kid...and make sexual remarks. Even when we e mail back and forth... our relationship sounds very much like the relationship of these two couples. Nothing is ever taken seriously.... we all know where the lines are drawn...and we value the friendship too much to step over those lines.

 

I don't know the dynamic between rodeo and her husband...and i worry the boundaries have not been set properly....and her husband stepped over her line....but was her line clearly drawn?

 

Here's the part that i keep coming back to in my mind.

 

Why would this good friend...give rodeo the conversation to read...if she thought it would make her angry or hurt her? I truly believe this woman was not offended...and that this kind of conversation had occurred before among the 4 of them. I cannot imagine why she would turn over an incriminating conversation that may not only cause Rodeo to be angry with her husband...but might make her angry at this woman as well....and now rodeo has a copy of this conversation and might share it with the other woman's husband....which could blow her OWN relationship out of the water.... I keep thinking...WHY WOULD SHE DO THIS???

 

If she thought for one second that rodeo was going to be angry or upset....why would she give her the conversation?

 

In my mind she gave her the conversation...because she knew it was a joke...because she knew they teased like this all the time...

 

she allowed this conversation to continue because...it was normal..

 

and when Mr. rodeo crossed HER line...she pulled the plug....she ended the conversation.

 

I will say this... since this conversation has caused Rodeo this much pain.....this friendship must be ended. You cannot have a friendship where innocent sexual overtones transpired....and now the trust has been breached. Rodeo will never be able to trust her husband or her good friend. So this friendship is over.....regardless of anything else. They can never go back to the way it was before.

 

which is why i say...it doesn't make sense to me. I am left shaking my head...wondering why the best friend would turn over that conversation if it was not innocent.

 

At the same time....Mr rodeo was inappropriate....he absolutely went too far....at least for MY LINE....and since it has rodeo so upset....it obviously crossed her line as well. this has to be dealt with...communication is very important....therapy is a great idea. Mr. Rodeo's willingness to rectify the situation says volumes. If he shrugs it off...then he doesn't understand how badly rodeo is hurt. It sounds to me like he is willing to do what she needs to make the situation right.

[merrmeade]

Now, he's acknowledged his f--kedupness and need for counseling. What about you?

I tried to explain why I recommend counseling and did not mean to imply you share his "f--kedupness"!!

[merrmeade]

What's the point of all this if, when the next time they all get together, everyone is telling sexually charged jokes, and crass innuendo laden statements, that is, everyone but this woman's husband who will be completely silent and have a look of abject horror on his face, completely fear filled that he will do or say something that will put him in the dog house? If this is to work, then I am afraid you will also have to get rid of these friends - remember, the other woman's husband has no reason to moderate his opinions. So he starts with the panty jokes, and then....?

 

Bad, all the way around.

This will never happen again.

[S2B]

Have you never heard of breast referred to as "the ladies"? Everyone knows he is a boob guy, OP's own words. OP skimmed over it because she knew what he was referring to.

 

Never heard breasts referred to as women. Never.

 

The girls - would be believable. Lady parts would fly.

 

But he said "you know I'm in love with 2 women" - and he wasn't talking about her breasts.

 

I think the H is a douchebag who does whatever he wishes when he thinks he won't get caught.

 

Is your H a drinker, OP? Does he act terrible while drinking, drugging?

[aliveagain]

I guess your husband would be ok if he saw a text from you to a friends husband asking about the length and girth of his penis. He would probably think it was ok if you asked him to send you photo's of it right? Maybe one of the male members on LS can help you with some email or text exchanges, see what his reaction is(that would be extreme but it would get your point across). Bottom line, your husband acts single when you are not around and that's trouble waiting to happen. Get him professional help, he needs to be completely committed to you and the marriage or the chances that you will go through more infidelity are really high. Who needs more of that in their lives?

[Scorpio Chick]

Hi Secondrodeo. I'm sorry about this happening to you after what happened in your last marriage. My take, as an objective party, is that this is without a doubt cheating. The physical part didn't take place because ypur husband was shot down. I read where you say you're not sure why, but you don't want to end a marriage based on a Facebook message. The method by which your husband was trying to start an affair has nothing to do with the bottom line - he clearly was aiming to start a sexual fling with not just any woman, but a friend of yours. And I'm very sorry for you also with all of this because your friend is not innocent of any wrongdoing here. She has no excuse to privately send a bikini picture she had already posted publicly. She's a grown, married adult-she's not ignorant of what that will stir up in a man. I am truly sorry for the pain you must be starting to go through with all of this. My strong opinion is you can't counsel the deviousness out of a person like this man you're married to. I would divorce him asap. He doesn't deserve one more second of the good benefits a marriage confers. And keep those FB messages to show your attorney, they're important. It's one thing to meet someone, while married, and fall in love. This man you're married to is geared up to jump into something and he has no respect for the fact that he was hitting on your friend. Also, I highly, strongly urge you to read the book by the lady that calls herself The Chump Lady. IT IS EXCELLENT.

[Secondrodeo]

Never heard breasts referred to as women. Never.

 

The girls - would be believable. Lady parts would fly.

 

But he said "you know I'm in love with 2 women" - and he wasn't talking about her breasts.

 

I think the H is a douchebag who does whatever he wishes when he thinks he won't get caught.

 

Is your H a drinker, OP? Does he act terrible while drinking, drugging?

 

No, he doesn't drink or do drugs. He's in law enforcement and has pretty frequent random drug tests. Plus, he's pretty boring, lol. He may drink socially a couple of times a year but that's it.

[Secondrodeo]

I guess your husband would be ok if he saw a text from you to a friends husband asking about the length and girth of his penis. He would probably think it was ok if you asked him to send you photo's of it right? Maybe one of the male members on LS can help you with some email or text exchanges, see what his reaction is(that would be extreme but it would get your point across). Bottom line, your husband acts single when you are not around and that's trouble waiting to happen. Get him professional help, he needs to be completely committed to you and the marriage or the chances that you will go through more infidelity are really high. Who needs more of that in their lives?

 

He's agreed to MC and says he'll do whatever else it takes to fix himself and the pain he's caused me. He seems truly upset - has had a horrid headache, nausea, trouble eating, etc since this all came to light a few days ago.

 

I'm not making any decisions about anything right now. I'm going to see how MC goes and *if* a therapist can help him/us figure out what the hell is going on in his head to make him think this behavior is ok.

[Secondrodeo]

I tried to explain why I recommend counseling and did not mean to imply you share his "f--kedupness"!!

 

LOL - I knew what you meant. Although I might be a bit f*cked up myself! Ha!

[Secondrodeo]

Ok have I missed something that made this all your husbands fault.

 

 

The four of you were really close to the point you all were comfortable telling sexual jokes and in your words "can be pretty crass'.

 

 

What were the rules in this.

 

 

Did you and your husband seat down and talk about how far the two of you were allowed to go in this?

 

 

Did the two of you seat and say that this is off limits?

 

 

After the four of you were together did you ever say to your husband, you might have gone to far tonight?

 

 

Did you ever set boundaries for the relationship you had with the other couple?

 

 

Your BFF the other wife was ok with it and just wanted you to know what was going on. She wasn't upset about it right?

 

 

So, did you never say anything was out of bounds?

 

 

This has been a big lack of communication between the two of you. He lied when confronted I know that is the issue here. If he didn't know the boundaries with the friend how could he know he was crossing them. You said the four of you were close and your husband had a thing for her breast. Did you ever say he was taking it to far liking her assets?

 

 

If you are wanting to throw this marriage away keep hitting him while he is down and trying to comply with your wishes. You never set clear boundaries with the other couple. You are as much at fault for that as he is. The big thing against him is him lying about it when confronted. He never should have lied.

 

Yes, he and I had already had conversations about my boundaries for our marriage and he was in agreement. We've discussed how I expect him to treat other women in regards to texting, talking, flirting, not hiding any friendships or communication from me, etc. So I am confident those expectations were clear; he just chose to ignore them for some reason.

 

We live several states away from this couple. We've only seen them once in the year since they moved out of state, so there's little to no physical contact with them at all.

[Secondrodeo]

No - he specifically said he was in love with two women.

 

I pointed that out early in the thread but I believe the OP skimmed over that detail. I think it's important - considering he was crossing the line with this "friend".

 

I *wish* I could just skim over the fact that my husband said he was in love with her, too. That statement breaks my heart. He says it was a joke, albeit a bad one that went too far. And his comments about her being "so gorgeous " & "perfection". ...those hurt too. The whole convo just sucks.

 

Again, I'm going to see what the counselor thinks and how he does once we get started with MC.