Would YOU consider this cheating? So ....

[S2B]

Yes, he and I had already had conversations about my boundaries for our marriage and he was in agreement. We've discussed how I expect him to treat other women in regards to texting, talking, flirting, not hiding any friendships or communication from me, etc. So I am confident those expectations were clear; he just chose to ignore them for some reason.

 

We live several states away from this couple. We've only seen them once in the year since they moved out of state, so there's little to no physical contact with them at all.

 

So he blatantly crossed a boundary previously agreed upon... And why do you need a professional to help you understand it is unacceptable?

 

He purposely hurt you!

 

Where's the line? Stop moving it! Moving that line to accommodate HIS bad behavior means you are ok with it.

 

He's a complete tool. Why stay when you can't trust him?

[elaine567]

Yes, he and I had already had conversations about my boundaries for our marriage and he was in agreement. We've discussed how I expect him to treat other women in regards to texting, talking, flirting, not hiding any friendships or communication from me, etc. So I am confident those expectations were clear; he just chose to ignore them for some reason.

 

He is a grown man he doesn't need reminded of "boundaries" nor does he need "counselling" to rid him of his obvious misdirected horniness. He either considers himself a married man or he doesn't.

He made an obvious play at your friend, I guess not for the first time, as he wanted "more" sexy pics.

 

Sex, lies & police work

[S2B]

He's done it before - as he seems comfortable asking... It may not have been with her but with other women.

 

You can't spend your life looking for things he's hiding from you! Know that this IS who he really is.

 

Is that who you want to be married to?

 

Expecting him to change who he really is - isn't logical. If you're not ok with it then leave him.

 

If you stay then know that he will likely do it again - he will just hide it better next time.

[LivingWaterPlease]

Hi Secondrodeo. I'm sorry about this happening to you after what happened in your last marriage. My take, as an objective party, is that this is without a doubt cheating. The physical part didn't take place because ypur husband was shot down. I read where you say you're not sure why, but you don't want to end a marriage based on a Facebook message. The method by which your husband was trying to start an affair has nothing to do with the bottom line - he clearly was aiming to start a sexual fling with not just any woman, but a friend of yours. And I'm very sorry for you also with all of this because your friend is not innocent of any wrongdoing here. She has no excuse to privately send a bikini picture she had already posted publicly. She's a grown, married adult-she's not ignorant of what that will stir up in a man. I am truly sorry for the pain you must be starting to go through with all of this. My strong opinion is you can't counsel the deviousness out of a person like this man you're married to. I would divorce him asap. He doesn't deserve one more second of the good benefits a marriage confers. And keep those FB messages to show your attorney, they're important. It's one thing to meet someone, while married, and fall in love. This man you're married to is geared up to jump into something and he has no respect for the fact that he was hitting on your friend. Also, I highly, strongly urge you to read the book by the lady that calls herself The Chump Lady. IT IS EXCELLENT.

 

I second this post from Scorpio Chick. Your "friend" had to have known why he wanted the photo. But, again, since sexual talk and innuendo has been part of the foursome she thought it was OK to send the photo and it fit right in with the way you folks interact.

 

If you dance on the edge of hell don't be surprised if you slip and fall in. (I hope this is not too harsh, I don't mean it to be.)

 

I *wish* I could just skim over the fact that my husband said he was in love with her, too. That statement breaks my heart. He says it was a joke, albeit a bad one that went too far. And his comments about her being "so gorgeous " & "perfection". ...those hurt too. The whole convo just sucks.

 

Again, I'm going to see what the counselor thinks and how he does once we get started with MC.

 

I'm so sorry for what you're going through, Secondrodeo. I can understand why those comments break your heart. They would mine, too.

Edited June 26, 2016 by LivingWaterPlease

[Mrs. John Adams]

Wow...Rodeo....I cheated on my husband....and i am reading all this negativity about a doomed relationship...a man who cannot change....a flawed personality trait that can never improve.....

 

and I am sitting here thinking about all of the people who are members here...who have dealt with a whole lot more than an inappropriate text message...who are in reconciliation and are doing very well.

 

Only you know how much you are willing to forgive...no one else can do that for you. But if your husband is willing to put in the work to improve himself and to improve your relationship and is remorseful for his behavior and for hurting you....there is hope.

[merrmeade]

#1 He's agreed to MC and says he'll do whatever else it takes to fix himself and the pain he's caused me.

 

#2 He seems truly upset - has had a horrid headache, nausea, trouble eating, etc since this all came to light a few days ago.

 

#3 I'm not making any decisions about anything right now. I'm going to see how MC goes and *if* a therapist can help him/us figure out what the hell is going on in his head to make him think this behavior is ok.

This is important imo - from above:

 

#1 So did mine (agree to MC).

 

#1 So did mine (appear traumatized and truly penitent). And so did many or most other BSs posting here. But what many or most of us realized at some point was that this EXTREME physical/emotional reaction of our WSs is due to excruciating SHAME. There's some remorse mixed in for sure, but make no mistake - that kind of exposure of something that someone was keeping so underground, so private because they knew how bad others would view it (and themselves) and/or because they just couldn't stop themselves - whatever, is based in fear of exposure. SHAME is about exposing that person's darkest secret(s) and not about the pain that they see you in, which is true remorse. Think about it. Watch and listen to him. With shame, they can't bear to see/hear about your pain precisely because it reminds them of what they did. It's not that subtle once you live with it a while.

 

#3 But like I've said several times now - you've got this instinct about holding back, waiting, not trusting until you should.

 

Personally I think you should keep that guard up for a while and it should encompass a wide range of expressions. Hubby should see, feel and understand every day by every vibe he gets from you that he's On Notice until and when YOU decide that what you see is what you signed up for.

[merrmeade]

One more thing, r (there might be a few more "one more things" actually) -

 

Going to go about this one a bit round-about with a tiny aside: I used to block certain people that were just complete downers for me. I'd feel so discouraged and like I had to defend MY actions or need to move at a certain pace instead of receiving advice in a thoughtful, supportive way. Well, I stopped blocking and just skim over now. But sometimes I check to make sure someone else isn't getting hit over the head with the same kind of - What's wrong with you already?! Why don't you leave? Why don't you leave? Why don't you leave?

 

So I'm just telling you that this happens and it's unfortunate because there's a whole HUGE world of communication, understanding, growth and change between - this was my boundary - and - I'm glad I gave you another chance - that is NOBODY's business but yours.

 

Don't be sucked by anyone - not me either. Just saying - hold your sense of self and what's right for you.

[Mrs. John Adams]

One more thing, r (there might be a few more "one more things" actually) -

 

Going to go about this one a bit round-about with a tiny aside: I used to block certain people that were just complete downers for me. I'd feel so discouraged and like I had to defend MY actions or need to move at a certain pace instead of receiving advice in a thoughtful, supportive way. Well, I stopped blocking and just skim over now. But sometimes I check to make sure someone else isn't getting hit over the head with the same kind of - What's wrong with you already?! Why don't you leave? Why don't you leave? Why don't you leave?

 

So I'm just telling you that this happens and it's unfortunate because there's a whole HUGE world of communication, understanding, growth and change between - this was my boundary - and - I'm glad I gave you another chance - that is NOBODY's business but yours.

 

Don't be sucked by anyone - not me either. Just saying - hold your sense of self and what's right for you.

 

Thanks for this Merremeade....I was really getting depressed...because I just hate all this negative input over an e mail.

 

I know he was inappropriate...but my john WISHES all I had done was sent an inappropriate e mail. I know it still hurts...but my god.....he did not FV** her friend...he said inappropriate things...he inappropriately flirted. Yes he HURT rodeo....but I just don't think he needs to be crucified. If she is this torn apart by an email...how would she react to his flying out to meet her dear friend at a hotel and banging her for the weekend? I think she needs to keep things in proper perspective....

 

and ultimately at the end of the day....it is her choice to do what she deems best FOR HER...not for him.

[Mr. Lucky]

it is her choice to do what she deems best FOR HER...not for him.

 

I think the OP's carefully charted "trust but verify" course of action fits this bill.

 

Though had friend responded "my nipples are like maraschino cherries", can't help but wonder what H's next step would have been ???

 

Mr. Lucky

[Poutrew]

Though had friend responded "my nipples are like maraschino cherries", can't help but wonder what H's next step would have been ???

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Damn, Mr. Lucky. I read your post just as I was about to eat a banana split - and guess what was on top of all that whipped cream? 2 maraschino cherries...though in honor of your post, I saved them for last...

Edited June 26, 2016 by Poutrew

[Secondrodeo]

He is a grown man he doesn't need reminded of "boundaries" nor does he need "counselling" to rid him of his obvious misdirected horniness. He either considers himself a married man or he doesn't.

He made an obvious play at your friend, I guess not for the first time, as he wanted "more" sexy pics.

 

Sex, lies & police work

 

That's exactly what I told him, too: he says he is happily married but his actions sure don't reflect that. He was 45 when we started dating, had never been married; he was in one long-term relationship but that was in his late 20s. So I've wondered if 45 yeas of being single has made him struggle with changing some of his behaviors? And no, I'm not saying it's ok, or that he could use that as an excuse. But could it be a thought process/habit that was there for so long that he doesn't notice it now?

 

Thanks for the link as well. It focused a lot on nurses; ironically, I'm an RN. We didn't meet through work, though. But he does occasionally work security at a hospital emergency department....and he likes nurses so now my mind is going there.... ugh

[Mr. Lucky]

He was 45 when we started dating, had never been married; he was in one long-term relationship but that was in his late 20s. So I've wondered if 45 yeas of being single has made him struggle with changing some of his behaviors? And no, I'm not saying it's ok, or that he could use that as an excuse. But could it be a thought process/habit that was there for so long that he doesn't notice it now?

 

 

I actually won a small bet with myself when you said he was in "law enforcement", hard to find an environment where this stuff is more ingrained.

 

Don't think you lose much by giving him a chance to change. Though you may want to share your skepticism with him in advance ...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Secondrodeo]

I actually won a small bet with myself when you said he was in "law enforcement", hard to find an environment where this stuff is more ingrained.

 

Don't think you lose much by giving him a chance to change. Though you may want to share your skepticism with him in advance ...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

I'm pretty sure he knows I'm not making any guarantees about our marriage until we are well into counseling and he has figured out what the issues are and how to address them. I've made it clear I'm undecided right now and it make take awhile before I'm comfortable making a decision. He is still wanting to start counseling and says he will do whatever I need to be happy. I suppose time will prove it one way or another.

[S2B]

HE should be the one to make the appointment with the counselor! Do not call. See how long it takes him to make the appointment.

 

A man desperate to save his marriage would call within one day.

[Secondrodeo]

HE should be the one to make the appointment with the counselor! Do not call. See how long it takes him to make the appointment.

 

A man desperate to save his marriage would call within one day.

 

True, hadn't thought of it that way. My daughter sees a counselor so I contacted her since I already know her.

[Mrs. John Adams]

True, hadn't thought of it that way. My daughter sees a counselor so I contacted her since I already know her.

 

I don't think it matters who makes the appointment as long as he agrees to go and follows through with it.

[usa1ah]

If he's got any brains in his head at all he will lay off the dirty talk for good with this couple. I still think the friend sounds like she was surreptitiously calling the OP a prude and leading her husband on but I guess I'm alone there. He definitely crossed a boundary and the friend didn't. But if it were me I'd back waaaaaaaay off on the friendship.

 

 

 

 

 

You are forgetting OP was part of this dirty talk as well. She just as much to blame as her husband..

[usa1ah]

Never heard breasts referred to as women. Never.

 

The girls - would be believable. Lady parts would fly.

 

But he said "you know I'm in love with 2 women" - and he wasn't talking about her breasts.

 

I think the H is a douchebag who does whatever he wishes when he thinks he won't get caught.

 

Is your H a drinker, OP? Does he act terrible while drinking, drugging?

 

 

 

Ok fine.

 

 

OP is your husband in love with you and your friend?

 

 

What was your take on that part of the message?

 

 

Thank you.

[usa1ah]

He's agreed to MC and says he'll do whatever else it takes to fix himself and the pain he's caused me. He seems truly upset - has had a horrid headache, nausea, trouble eating, etc since this all came to light a few days ago.

 

I'm not making any decisions about anything right now. I'm going to see how MC goes and *if* a therapist can help him/us figure out what the hell is going on in his head to make him think this behavior is ok.

 

 

 

SR have you ever talked to him about boundaries when it comes to this couple?

 

 

Or was it everyone just having a good time?

[usa1ah]

Yes, he and I had already had conversations about my boundaries for our marriage and he was in agreement. We've discussed how I expect him to treat other women in regards to texting, talking, flirting, not hiding any friendships or communication from me, etc. So I am confident those expectations were clear; he just chose to ignore them for some reason.

 

We live several states away from this couple. We've only seen them once in the year since they moved out of state, so there's little to no physical contact with them at all.

 

 

 

But when it came to this couple and the jokes and stuff that went on, did the two of you take about this situation it self?

 

 

I understand in general there are things couples just don't do, but the relationship the four of you had, opened doors that should never of been opened. The fact that everyone knew your husband had a thing for the OW's breast and it seems was accepted. This fact alone should have been stopped from the start. It just sounds like from what your original post said that this was the normal thing when the four of you got to gather. The four of you where very comfortable with one another to talk and joke about sex, your husband just went to far when the four of you where already in the red zone.

[Cinnamonstix]

But when it came to this couple and the jokes and stuff that went on, did the two of you take about this situation it self?

 

 

I understand in general there are things couples just don't do, but the relationship the four of you had, opened doors that should never of been opened. The fact that everyone knew your husband had a thing for the OW's breast and it seems was accepted. This fact alone should have been stopped from the start. It just sounds like from what your original post said that this was the normal thing when the four of you got to gather. The four of you where very comfortable with one another to talk and joke about sex, your husband just went to far when the four of you where already in the red zone.

 

It is clear as day the husband knew he was crossing boundaries. He suggested in his little fb convo that he and the friend keep it between the two of them.

 

Also, there is a huge difference between making sexual jokes when SO's are present vs. when SO's are not. I think we can stop blaming the OP now.

[66Charger]

I am astounded by the cruxifiction. The Husband did cross a boundary, but the wife walked right up to it, with him. Sexual jokes about the wife and her? Ok. Sexual jokes about her boobs? Ok. He loves her boobs? Ha ha OK.

 

Sorry, your boudaries were loose to begin with. Correcting that is the right thing to do. Hypocrisy is not. Get a lawyer? Get your ducks in a row? How about just fixing the mess without the fire and brimstone

 

Cheating is wrong on all occassions, but if you behave a certain way, why are you surprised when it happens.

Edited June 28, 2016 by 66Charger

[usa1ah]

It is clear as day the husband knew he was crossing boundaries. He suggested in his little fb convo that he and the friend keep it between the two of them.

 

Also, there is a huge difference between making sexual jokes when SO's are present vs. when SO's are not. I think we can stop blaming the OP now.

 

I am not blaming the OP. The husband lied about what happened. That should be the issue. Yes he said some hurtful things in the message. Tell me this, what was the sex talks about that they had as a group or one on one or when just three of them were together? You know I have not nor will I ask OP this. She said they could be very crass so we will leave it at that. But if the way they talked in the message went along they way they were when they use to get together. Then it was a continuation form the talks they had as a group. They played with fire and got burned. They are both at fault, him more then her but still at fault. His biggest screw up was lying about it. You never lie to your wife or husband. That is a breach of trust a spouse can never excuse.

 

With this said did they play with fire, yes. Did he cross a line, He'll yes. But the bigger line crossed was the lie in denying the message.

[Mrs. John Adams]

I am not blaming the OP. The husband lied about what happened. That should be the issue. Yes he said some hurtful things in the message. Tell me this, what was the sex talks about that they had as a group or one on one or when just three of them were together? You know I have not nor will I ask OP this. She said they could be very crass so we will leave it at that. But if the way they talked in the message went along they way they were when they use to get together. Then it was a continuation form the talks they had as a group. They played with fire and got burned. They are both at fault, him more then her but still at fault. His biggest screw up was lying about it. You never lie to your wife or husband. That is a breach of trust a spouse can never excuse.

 

With this said did they play with fire, yes. Did he cross a line, He'll yes. But the bigger line crossed was the lie in denying the message.

 

 

I can't tell you the dynamics of the conversations between the four of them...but regardless...Rodeo has said that they have discussed boundaries in the past. She came out of a marriage tainted by infidelity...she made sure her new husband knew where the lines were drawn. I can only take her word for this....

 

I won't make assumptions....she has willingly answered every question asked of her on this thread...she has been above board and honest....

 

No matter what the foursome relationship was....her husband clearly crossed her line. He KNEW he crossed her line or he would not have lied about it. He knows he was wrong....he is willing to go to therapy....he was willing to give her space....to clear her head

 

I see a man who is trying to rectify his behavior...and a woman willing to give him the chance.

 

what more can you ask of a couple?

 

at the end of the day...these two are only accountable to each other....not to you...or not to me. They do not owe us an explanation....

 

She came here seeking help and advice....she got what she asked for and she took the criticism along with the praise.

 

I wish her much happiness and peace as she continues to search for answers to a complicated situation. She is broken....she does not need to also be humiliated by those of us here who are internet strangers.

[usa1ah]

I can't tell you the dynamics of the conversations between the four of them...but regardless...Rodeo has said that they have discussed boundaries in the past. She came out of a marriage tainted by infidelity...she made sure her new husband knew where the lines were drawn. I can only take her word for this....

 

I won't make assumptions....she has willingly answered every question asked of her on this thread...she has been above board and honest....

 

No matter what the foursome relationship was....her husband clearly crossed her line. He KNEW he crossed her line or he would not have lied about it. He knows he was wrong....he is willing to go to therapy....he was willing to give her space....to clear her head

 

I see a man who is trying to rectify his behavior...and a woman willing to give him the chance.

 

what more can you ask of a couple?

 

at the end of the day...these two are only accountable to each other....not to you...or not to me. They do not owe us an explanation....

 

She came here seeking help and advice....she got what she asked for and she took the criticism along with the praise.

 

I wish her much happiness and peace as she continues to search for answers to a complicated situation. She is broken....she does not need to also be humiliated by those of us here who are internet strangers.

 

 

 

I agree with you completely. The thing is why get into a relationship as close as they did with the other couple if your are trying to protect your marriage from infidelity, where the next step was to cross the line. Its like running a 100 mph and stopping at the line and damn the person the goes across. She had no problem with him ogling her friends boobs, but don't go any further. This is just asking of trouble. This should had been addressed from the start and not tolerated. The problem started when this was tolerated by all four of them.

 

 

Your are right she has been honest with this thread, in all aspects of it. This started years ago when they where hanging out with each other, it is not so simple to just bash the husband. We all agree he did wrong, he betrayed her and her trust.

 

 

The other question is why the boob thing was not stopped from the get go if infidelity is such a issue? I am not blaming OP for this just asking why it was allowed. Because like everything else in a marriages, this developed over time and was not stopped in the beginning.

 

 

They both have things to work on. We all know what OP's husband has to work on. The question is, why OP was ok with her husband ogling her best friends breast all these years? Hence, playing with fire. Is what she did wrong, no she thought that was as far as it would go. We all know from experience or seeing it first hand, you give someone enough rope they will hang themselves. This would never of happened I think if the ogling was stopped in the beginning.

 

 

OP I wish you the very best with what you are dealing with. Do what you need to do to heal.