Effects on Men of the Objectification of Women

[Paulie]

The older I get, the more I realize that the objectification of women is actually bad for BOTH sexes.

 

This might sound obvious, but lately, I've gained an interesting perspective that has helped me enormously.

 

I will readily admit that I have been to strip clubs dozens of times, bought pornography, most stuff that much of society considers "normal." While that kind of stuff is tolerated, and dismissed as entertainment, most of us will readily admit that many forms of pornography, and objectification of women, is degrading to women. That is a pretty well accepted rationale.

 

At the same time, I, as a single man, have felt insecure, to a degree in being in strip clubs, seeing men pay escorts for sex, etc, as I not only see women as being equal to men, but like to see my own gender as equal to women, in all regards, including on the dating scene, and any forum that pertains to sexuality. While I readily admit to having partaken in behavior that is essentially degrading to women (strip clubs, sexist jokes, etc), the older I get, the more I see the blunt, degrading manner in which men display their own sense of inadequacy.

 

I like to feel that I am a commodity, an irreplacable being equal to any female, and as she is my equal, my affection is a gift to her, and vice-versa. My paying for sex in any capacity is contrary to this belief. This is absolutely evident in strip clubs, where men literally WORSHIP these women, throw their money at them, and in doing so, degrade themselves.

 

Now, we can dismiss this, as I readily admit I have done, as being "one of the boys," having fun, etc.

 

BUTTTTT...

 

Then I have seen a seemingly unrelated phenomenon in singles bars, etc, where I, as a single man, almost feel as though women are almost viewed as being inherently more "valuable" (for lack of a better word). Examples:

 

1. "Ladies Night" is a far more frequent thing than the Male Equivalent

 

2. A club full of guys is typically viewed by BOTH sexes as being a "sausage-fest," or something similar...basically, an undesirable place to go, whereas a bar that is disproportionately full of women is seen as being a pretty attractive place to go.

 

3. They disproportionately have female cocktail waitresses at high-end bars or clubs, because owners know men will hit on them, tip them more, and generate more revenue for the house.

 

As a single male, with alot going for me, this has been something that has bothered me. What is it about my particular gender that I sometimes feel,(again, for lack of a better word) less-valuable on the singles partying, social scene than an attractive woman?

 

I have asked this very question several times on this particular site, and what I have gathered from many women's responses to my postings regarding this subject is that women have this power specifically because men are willing to give it to them. Male managers of clubs decide to have no cover charge for the ladies...Men are willing to DEGRADE THEMSELVES by throwing their hard-earned money at the feet of a stripper (and in my opinion, they are each degrading themselves every bit to the same degree.) Sexuality is something that is intended by God, and nature, to be shared by both sexes.

 

Basically, what I'm saying (and it's terribly late at night right now, so I'm not so sure I've relayed my thoughts as well as I might liked to have) is that what goes around does indeed come around. If men are willing to degrade women and objectify them, it most definitely, in some societal, gradual way, assigns a degree of what I consider to be an unfair power of sexuality to women, and men, on the whole will suffer the consequences.

 

The last few times I have been to strip clubs (on bachelor parties) I have just talked to some of the girls about life, love, etc. Believe me, most of these girls have terribly low self esteem, and men throwing money at their feet (in the words of Bruce Springsteen, "worshipping at the feet of the goddess above") validate their existence to the degree that they probably never received from daddy.

 

As this happens, this is all they get to know! They realize the incredible power of their sexuality in gaining not only material posessions, but in also manipulating men who are more than willing to fork over hard-earned money in order to objectify them. And the joke is on both of them.

 

I just wanted to point this out, because the effects of objectification of women ON WOMEN is a topic that is frequently discussed. But I have recently come to the realization that Love is real, and must be treated as such, and in this game of love, what goes around, most certainly does come around. Really, Guys.

 

Paulie

[Paulie]

The more I don't give women this "power," (which essentially means appreciating them for who they are, not objectifying them, and not kissing their @sses)...

 

The more I find women seem to appreciate me.

 

Paulie

[clia]

The older I get, the more I realize that the objectification of women is actually bad for BOTH sexes.

Of course. I have a friend who works at Victoria's Secret, and she told me how they airbrush the arms, legs, and butts of the models so they look more skinny. Women are trying to attain this, and men are trying to find it. Truth is, it's not real world.

This might sound obvious, but lately, I've gained an interesting perspective that has helped me enormously. I will readily admit that I have been to strip clubs dozens of times, bought pornography, most stuff that much of society considers "normal." While that kind of stuff is tolerated, and dismissed as entertainment, most of us will readily admit that many forms of pornography, and objectification of women, is degrading to women. That is a pretty well accepted rationale.

I don't think it's degrading to women if women are willing to pose for it. If it was that degrading, would women do it? I have a hard time with that rationale. I know that there are a lot of women out there who don't have the brains to support themselves, but they do have the bodies...so then what? I can't see how something is degrading if women choose to do it. It might feel degrading to the rest of us, but if they aren't bothered by it, why should we be? We have the choice not to look at it.

At the same time, I, as a single man, have felt insecure, to a degree in being in strip clubs, seeing men pay escorts for sex, etc, as I not only see women as being equal to men, but like to see my own gender as equal to women, in all regards, including on the dating scene, and any forum that pertains to sexuality. While I readily admit to having partaken in behavior that is essentially degrading to women (strip clubs, sexist jokes, etc), the older I get, the more I see the blunt, degrading manner in which men display their own sense of inadequacy.

Please, the women at the strip clubs are not your equal. You aren't looking to date them, are you? They are out for one thing--to make money! And if they have to take advantage of your drunkenness, your stupidity to drop a dollar in their g-string, they will. But, you are right. They are looking for men's insecurity and inadequacy to get that money. It's because men like to look at sexy women that they make their living. And they're thankful for that! All of those girls at the strip clubs are girls that the guys that go there could never get for free. It's a fantasy.

I like to feel that I am a commodity, an irreplacable being equal to any female, and as she is my equal, my affection is a gift to her, and vice-versa. My paying for sex in any capacity is contrary to this belief. This is absolutely evident in strip clubs, where men literally WORSHIP these women, throw their money at them, and in doing so, degrade themselves.

Absolutely. But without those men, how would all the strippers out there pay their rent? It's because men like to look at the female body that we have this industry.

Now, we can dismiss this, as I readily admit I have done, as being "one of the boys," having fun, etc. BUTTTTT... Then I have seen a seemingly unrelated phenomenon in singles bars, etc, where I, as a single man, almost feel as though women are almost viewed as being inherently more "valuable" (for lack of a better word). Examples: 1. "Ladies Night" is a far more frequent thing than the Male Equivalent 2. A club full of guys is typically viewed by BOTH sexes as being a "sausage-fest," or something similar...basically, an undesirable place to go, whereas a bar that is disproportionately full of women is seen as being a pretty attractive place to go. 3. They disproportionately have female cocktail waitresses at high-end bars or clubs, because owners know men will hit on them, tip them more, and generate more revenue for the house.

Bars want women there because that will attract the men. That's it. As given in your previous examples of strip clubs, men like to look at beautiful women. That's not to say that women don't like to look at hot guys, but it's generally accepted that men will go where the women are. It's your trouble as a gender that this type of 'genderism' goes on.

As a single male, with alot going for me, this has been something that has bothered me. What is it about my particular gender that I sometimes feel,(again, for lack of a better word) less-valuable on the singles partying, social scene than an attractive woman?

Women have beautiful bodies and men don't. And I didn't say this first. All of the men did. It's part of our society, the reason why there are numerous nudie women magazines and very few nudie men magazines. Blame yourselves.

I have asked this very question several times on this particular site, and what I have gathered from many women's responses to my postings regarding this subject is that women have this power specifically because men are willing to give it to them. Male managers of clubs decide to have no cover charge for the ladies...Men are willing to DEGRADE THEMSELVES by throwing their hard-earned money at the feet of a stripper (and in my opinion, they are each degrading themselves every bit to the same degree.) Sexuality is something that is intended by God, and nature, to be shared by both sexes.

That is absolutely right. I think men degrade themselves giving money to a women for rubbing their a$$ against them, when they know 90% of the time that they aren't getting anything in return. Men perpetuate the sex industry. But hey, if they like it, that's fine. Seems to me like they'd be luckier hitting on a fat girl at the bars to get some real nookie.

Basically, what I'm saying (and it's terribly late at night right now, so I'm not so sure I've relayed my thoughts as well as I might liked to have) is that what goes around does indeed come around. If men are willing to degrade women and objectify them, it most definitely, in some societal, gradual way, assigns a degree of what I consider to be an unfair power of sexuality to women, and men, on the whole will suffer the consequences.

I know I feel objectified these days. Most men I date are completely after sex. I'm sorry if I'm that sexy (LOL), but it's really ridiculous. I think that it's hurting both sexes. Men want it, and women want it, but women don't want to give it away because they think that's all the guys are after. (Which is true, in most cases.)

The last few times I have been to strip clubs (on bachelor parties) I have just talked to some of the girls about life, love, etc. Believe me, most of these girls have terribly low self esteem, and men throwing money at their feet (in the words of Bruce Springsteen, "worshipping at the feet of the goddess above") validate their existence to the degree that they probably never received from daddy.

I can't imagine having low self esteem and dancing naked in front of a bunch of guys. I have a great body, but I'd never dream of it. (Maybe because I have high self esteem?) Who knows? Like you said, the men perpetuate it.

As this happens, this is all they get to know! They realize the incredible power of their sexuality in gaining not only material posessions, but in also manipulating men who are more than willing to fork over hard-earned money in order to objectify them. And the joke is on both of them.

Absolutely. I know so many girls that prey on men using their sexual wiles. Guys fall for it so easy. It makes me sick, because I don't want a guy to fall for me because of that. But it seems to me that most men want a great body and don't give a crap about conversation or brains. That, to me, is sick and wrong.

I just wanted to point this out, because the effects of objectification of women ON WOMEN is a topic that is frequently discussed. But I have recently come to the realization that Love is real, and must be treated as such, and in this game of love, what goes around, most certainly does come around. Really, Guys.

You sound like a nice guy Paulie, who has it all figured out. Too bad the rest of the guys out there don't realize what their doing.

[Miss Mojo]

hi paulie,

 

that was a very interesting viewpoint indeed! i think i shall add a few of my comments now:

 

...most of us will readily admit that many forms of pornography, and objectification of women, is degrading to women. That is a pretty well accepted rationale.

 

from what i understand, men are a lot more 'visual' than women are. i wonder, if women were just as visual men, would there be an abundance of 'playgirl' and 'women's forum' magazines? would women feel the need to ogle like some men do? would men consider it degrading (more importantly, would women degrade men?) while i know some girls who like to admire men's bodies, i can't help but wonder if it would be degrading to men? i don't mind looking at a picture of a nice guy with a buffed body in a pair of calvin klein's, but honestly, it does not turn me on. gimme the real thing, preferrably not so picture perfect and airbrushed-looking, any day! i have seen 'manpower' and honestly, i thought it was boring as hell. i found the audience and the soundman more interesting to look at.

 

I not only see women as being equal to men, but like to see my own gender as equal to women, in all regards, including on the dating scene, and any forum that pertains to sexuality.

 

you're a champion paulie! i have always believed this too. men and women differ biologically (obviously), and generally men are physically stronger than women. but if a woman wants to play the field, so what? a man can. if a woman wants to be a bricklayer, so what? a man can. on the other hand, if a man wants to be secretary, so what? a woman can....

 

While I readily admit to having partaken in behavior that is essentially degrading to women (strip clubs, sexist jokes, etc), the older I get, the more I see the blunt, degrading manner in which men display their own sense of inadequacy.

 

i think a lot of this is because these women let themselves be degraded. they know what most of the men at these places are thinking (and why they go to the toilet so often), and because of the social stigma of women flaunting their bodies and being "sluts" for doing so. it is a viscious circle - men will go to these places to get their rocks off, yet at the same time, they will treat these women like dirty skanks and make absolute asses of themselves by drooling over them and these women keep performing for these men (and not because they are emotionally secure enough to do so, most of the time). the merry-go-round never stops.

 

Now, we can dismiss this, as I readily admit I have done, as being "one of the boys," having fun, etc.

 

i think that is ok, as long as you don't view these women as skanks, bitches, sluts (sure, some of them might be but that doesn't mean they all are). some men really enjoy a tasteful strip show and can admire a nice body without needing to stuff money down her pants or run to the loo. it's very easy for one to generalise - a woman taking her clothes off has no self-respect, yet a man taking his clothes off...wow, what a confident fella!

 

I, as a single man, almost feel as though women are almost viewed as being inherently more "valuable" (for lack of a better word). Examples:

 

1. "Ladies Night"....

 

men generally seem to drink a lot more than (some) women and are more inclined to hit a bar or a pub to do so. even when it's not ladies night, walk into any bar or pub and the majority of patrons will be male. this was hugely evident in the pub i used to work in. it's a good place to meet up "with the boys". now.....a pub being a place that more men than ladies go to, is a great thing for revenue like you said, paulie. rake in the women with what ever gimmick you can (ladies nights etc) and you have even MORE men coming to the pub, because they luuuuuuuurve to check out the girls. what a nifty little trick when bar and/or bottle shop sales aren't going too great! they can play on biology a little, by using women to up their takings.

 

2. A club full of guys is typically viewed by BOTH sexes as being a "sausage-fest," or something similar...basically, an undesirable place to go, whereas a bar that is disproportionately full of women is seen as being a pretty attractive place to go.

 

very true. i have always stayed away from "meat-markets" myself. but in all honesty, the majority of women (not all), don't ogle men the way a lot of men do women. for example, i very rarely hear women wolf-whistle. i hear men do it all the time.

 

3. They disproportionately have female cocktail waitresses at high-end bars or clubs, because owners know men will hit on them, tip them more, and generate more revenue for the house.

 

again, a good marketing ploy based on biology. look at most of the advertisements on television - there are a LOT more scantily clad women than there are men, because men are more visual than women. these marketing departments know exactly who to target and how and why.

 

As a single male, with alot going for me, this has been something that has bothered me. What is it about my particular gender that I sometimes feel,(again, for lack of a better word) less-valuable on the singles partying, social scene than an attractive woman?

 

i would say that you're only less valuable from a marketing point of view. like i mentioned above, it is all based on the biological make-up of men. i think men are very valuable on the singles partying, social scene - and i say this from a woman's point of view...a woman who doesn't go out to "pick up", but simply likes to talk to guys and meet nice ones (so i guess i steer clear of the strip clubs and gentlemen's clubs!!).

 

Male managers of clubs decide to have no cover charge for the ladies...

 

Men are willing to DEGRADE THEMSELVES by throwing their hard-earned money at the feet of a stripper (and in my opinion, they are each degrading themselves every bit to the same degree.)

 

i don't even think a lot of men who do this would consider it degrading. they're happy to get their kicks with their hard-earned money

 

...I have just talked to some of the girls about life, love, etc. Believe me, most of these girls have terribly low self esteem, and men throwing money at their feet (in the words of Bruce Springsteen, "worshipping at the feet of the goddess above") validate their existence to the degree that they probably never received from daddy.

 

would they have stripped for daddy??! lol.

 

a guy i know used to date a stripper and live with a couple of them. his words, "they are the most insecure people you can meet". his ex was so used to men drooling over her and complementing her, that when he didn't comment on her looks, she would say, "don't you think i'm pretty? you don't think i'm beautiful do you?". they come to believe that the most important basis for who they are as people are their looks, because it's the only thing that's ever been admired about them.

 

They realize the incredible power of their sexuality in gaining not only material posessions, but in also manipulating men who are more than willing to fork over hard-earned money in order to objectify them. And the joke is on both of them.

 

i'd never really thought of it that way, paulie. that's pretty interesting when you put it like that and quite true. guy thinks: "i want to get my kicks by ogling you and thinking disrespectful things", girl says: "only if you throw money at me", guy says: "great", girl says" "great". hmmm....when you think of it that way they're degrading each other for the sole purpose of gratification (men = sexual, women = money and/or a boost to their self-esteem). how sad it all is!!

 

but i will say that there are strippers out there who are not insecure at all (i know of one), but are merely playing on the fact that she can worm out of these men a bit of cash because of their sexuality. i just wonder if she ever thinks of the gross things that these men are thinking about her. maybe she takes it with a grain of salt. i would walk down the street with toilet paper hanging out of my dress and a horrible mohawk than stand naked in front of a stranger who is staring at my private parts (that are only intended for one-on-one viewing).

 

Love is real, and must be treated as such, and in this

 

game of love, what goes around, most certainly does come around. Really, Guys.

 

oooh yeah, you're not wrong there. it's karma. i never used to believe in karma and "what goes around comes around", but as i have gotten older and the more relationships i have witnessed, the more i really do believe it....and i have seen karma work at its best.

[Paulie]

You write:

 

"I don't think it's degrading to women if women are willing to pose for it. If it was that degrading, would women do it? I have a hard time with that rationale. I know that there are a lot of women out there who don't have the brains to support themselves, but they do have the bodies...so then what? I can't see how something is degrading if women choose to do it. It might feel degrading to the rest of us, but if they aren't bothered by it, why should we be? We have the choice not to look at it."

 

I am familiar with this argument, and frankly, as a Libertarian, I support people's rights to pretty much do whatever the hell they wish, as long as it doesn't interfere with others' lives, or impact others in a deleterious way. However, I can see the point of the Womens' rights people that maybe the objectification of women (i.e. over-sexualization, inadequate attention to the other beautiful aspects of femininity) may very well not be in the best interests of that particular gender. Now, yes, cliche as it may sound, this is a free country, and we should be able to do whatever the hell we please.

 

But what we should be ALLOWED to do, and what is...maybe AN IDEAL SITUATION, are very often two entirely different things.

[Paulie]

Just because someone, "chooses to do it," does not mean that a particular action or set of actions does not have the potential to be degrading or dangerous to them. Crack Cocaine abuse is (at least initially) a chosen behavior, and in my opinion, is degrading to the wonderful, unique set of characteristics that makes each one of us unique and beautiful in our own way. It cuts us off from reality, numbs the spirit, has lethal potential. It's a degrading behavior that one has chosen. I feel that prostitution, and to a lesser degree, hard-core pornography, etc, has the same characterics.

 

Yeah, don't look if you don't want, that's your right, as is anybody's...I support that right fully. From an analytical point of view, I don't think objectification of women is beneficial to either sex.

[Tony T]

Women enjoy being objectified if it's to their financial or other advantage. And the American economy gets a real boost as a result.

 

Just try entering the Miss Boston Pageant, which leads to Miss Massachusettes and on to the Miss America Pageant where ONLY a female has a shot at the title and attendant college scholarship and one-year paid appearance contract.

 

Go try out for a woman's sports team. The press will be there within 15 minutes.

 

Can you imagine Charlie seeking MEN for his Angels?

 

Have a photographer send YOUR picture in to Playboy Magazine for centerfold consideration. Oh, yeah, that's right...they did come out with PlayGIRL. Sorry.

 

The bottom line to all of this has nothing to do with any subliminal social process. It all has to do with MONEY...as in $$$$$$$. NBC and Miss America Pageant, Inc. make millions televising Miss America. (They've recently gone to two-piece for the bathing suit competition...are you believing that?)

 

The largest percentage of events or concepts that focus on women are either for profit or to give the appearance of observing equal opportunity laws which women fought so hard to get. "We've come a long way, baby."

 

Ladies Night gets women and men into clubs on nights that would have otherwise been dismal. And it does work!!! Mo money for the owners. Women's sports keeps schools and colleges from getting sued.

 

Charlie's Angels have Charlie's constant watchful eye...because they are ladies doing a very dangerous job while the doer of good on Mission Impossible gets one lousy tape that self-destructs after 10 seconds. To me, that is really offensive to men who are not given the same courtesy as the ladies and should be offensive to women because it implies that men are far quicker studies.

 

Many of the girls who pose in the buff for Playboy parlay their $35,000 experience at having their belly buttons stapled into a long and lucrative career of modeling, acting, personal appearances and marriages to millionaire trophy seekers. You never hear anything from the guys who pose for Playgirl. Burt Reynolds was chastised for years for taking his clothes off for Cosmopolitan.

 

Women objectify themselves for money. How many ladies was it...50 or so...who paraded in shorts before alleged multimillionaire Rick Rockwell on FOX television in "Who Wants to Marry a Multimillionaire." Count me in there too. Were men invited for a shot a Gloria Vanderbilt, Julia Roberts or Mary Kay.

 

And poor Darva (sometimes pronounced DUHva)...she got selected and suddenly got a whiff of just what drove you to write your piece (objectification of women). It suddenly struck her just how ludicrous the whole thing was...what an awful thing she had done...how demeaning. So she gets an annullment and runs down to Playboy Magazine for a shoot that netted her $100,000 and dozens of personal appearances to shore up her overdrawn bank account.

 

At the better strip clubs, a woman can make $400 to $2000 per night dancing for men. Oh, yes, if you want them to stick their butt in your face...that's extra. I personally would dance naked for anybody for half of that and stick my butt in somebody's face for free but I have yet to find takers.

 

If you think I'm making this up, just go to one of those clubs. You won't get a harder sell anywhere in the world than from a lady wanting $25 for a lap dance and a $100 tip. If you want to talk about objectification, I have never been able to figure out what the object of all that is.

 

So don't cut yourself down for objectifying women. It's pretty hard to keep from doing it. Nobody forces them into these things. They go for the $$$$$ and the glory and are welcomed with open arms. Those who complain are the ones who can't make it into these selective venues.

 

Objectification of women is a pretty big part of American's gross national product. Billions are made each year by the cosmetics industry and sexy ladies sell trillions of dollars of products and services in magazines, on television, on billboards, in direct mail, etc. And how much money do you think men spend on almost everything from houses to cars to clothes to trips, jewelry, etc. to win the heart of or to impress a...uh, female???

 

Yes, the pornography business falls in there too. I hate the stuff. I hate the idea. But I know that many of these women support their children on what they make. And nobody puts a gun to their head to be a part of this. It's an opportunity just like anything else, an opportunity for all to come out with a hefty profit. It's a business venture that has little risk if done at just above kindergarten level.

 

As long as the planet earth is here, this will all still be the case. Women will be used in the name of profits and some, well maybe even many, women will gladly allow that to happen.

 

If you're feeling guilty about all this, just don't participate. That's all. Don't get sucked into it. But it's here to stay.

 

Like Henry Miller said in "Tropic of Capricorn" (very first page): "Nothing would be altered, I was convinced, except by a change of heart...and who can change the hearts of men."

 

Now let's talk about the objectification of men. You know, it's always been God the Father. I resent men getting blamed for every blasted thing that goes wrong or is wrong with society. I want my mama.

[Dragonflys]

Paulie

 

What you write under the post [and....] is basically right. Once you objectify women you are a goner. Women know that their appeal as objects adds nothing to their self esteem above the initial rush they get when they first show off how attractive they are.

 

Once a man objectifies a woman, without appealing to her intelligence, her opinion of him plummets unless she is willing to equally objectify him.

 

From my experience I have realised that while women like to be appreciated for their looks, it means nothing if you are not willing to appreciate them for their intelligence, ambition, strength, capacity to love etc.. Speak to a any lady on the level without gawking or kissing their ass, and if you have anything in common their opinion of you increases dramatically. In early conversations it's like a wierd stand-off situation where neither of you lets the other in and you show each other a bit of what you are mentally and spiritually.

 

A guy who is able to show a woman what he is made of without caving in can get infinately more interest from women. I have seen it happen to me.

 

That's my uneducated opinion