To Divorce or Not? [UPDATE Divorce - Anyway to soften the blow?]

June 27, 2016

Sorry if this is long. I almost had it and gave up on Saturday night. Here's the background story.

I have known my wife for 18 years, been married 16. I met her after a very low point in my life. I had a college gf that was my first love. I screwed that relationship up but I was young then. I was struggling with weight, finding a career path and finding the right girl. My friends hung out at bars and would hook up regularly. I have social anxiety and would hate going to bars and usually left early, alone. I met and dated a couple girls but no luck. I was desperate to meet someone who wanted to settle down.

I met my W one night. She is very friendly and made the first move. We dated and she was fun to hang out with. Lots of personality to balance my lack of personality. Lots of parties & social events with friends. Time went on and continued to see each other. I liked the comfort of having someone there but I never felt the same as my college gf. My career began to go well and knew I wanted to settle down. Also my parents had me late in life and wanted to make sure they saw me get married and have kids before they were gone.

When we were dating and when I had too much to drink one night, I stupidly let her know how much I missed my ex gf. Big issues ensued.

Anyway we got married and things were good. Ran into my ex gf and my W said I acted funny around her. Over the years she would bring up that she was my second choice and I wish I had married my ex gf. There is some truth to that.

We had a couple kids and life went on. My job really took off and I became sole provider for family while my W stayed at home with kids.

My wife has always drinked a lot. Caused a few issues but nothing too serious. Her dad is an alcoholic. She has at least 2-3 drinks every day, most days more. She is becoming more and more like her dad. Not just with drinking. My W has complained over the years that her dad is loving and 100% personality but very very hard to be around. Not just with drinking but just everyday life. He yells, argues and is confrontational to the extreme. He has been kicked out of the local sandwich shop for getting into an argument with the manager. 75% of the interactions with my MIL, his wife are yelling and arguing. My MIL has sent him to AA and other alcohol recovery centers and she ordered him to stop drinking. He has hid alcohol in different spots in the house of the years. He got a DUI at age 70. My MIL is a saint and has made comments that she wishes she would have left and she didn't envision her life turning out like this.

I would definitely say my W has her dads personality and I have her moms. I am very laid back, forgiving and do not like confrontation. I avoid confrontation at all costs. My w is just so overbearing like her dad. She lost her best friend from college one night. They were drinking and my wife just pushed and pushed like usual and this friend said I am done with your drama. They haven't spoke since. 10 years ago.

My W gets in arguments in social situations constantly usually while drinking but sometimes not. It is usually over politics, religion, social issues, etc. She gets mad at me for not backing her up. She complains to the wait staff almost every time we eat out. Twice within the last year she has really gone over board and treated the wait staff horribly. She later apologized both times to them. Also, 1/3 of my interactions and with our kids end in some sort of argument or her expressing displeasure. It is just exhausting.

I guess you could say she is bi-polar. Aside from the issues above she can be very loving and caring and my family just adores her. They don't see the other side and I never mention it.

Anyway she had another breakdown the other night at a bar. She had been drinking most of the day. She kept saying how she was second choice and how bad I have treated her over the years. That she doesn't have all my love. I guess that is true. It got so bad that I almost just left.

The issue is we have two kids. I don't care about the money. She can have half and I am willing to support her and obviously do everything I can for my kids. They are 14 and 12.

On one hand I want to wait until my youngest boy is maybe 15 and could handle it better. On the other hand, I want to leave now. We are in the midst of moving and it would be "cleaner" if we were in between homes. Also if I wait, my mom who is 90 would not be disappointed in me. She just adores my W and has seen her other kids go thru divorce which she said she knows I wouldn't do that.

Sorry to ramble and there's so much more to this. Any advice is welcome. I just don't want to be like my MIL who has been dealing with this for the last 30-40 years and feels she got shorted on life.

June 27, 2016

Anyway she had another breakdown the other night at a bar. She had been drinking most of the day. She kept saying how she was second choice and how bad I have treated her over the years. That she doesn't have all my love. I guess that is true. It got so bad that I almost just left.

Not sure why you avoid stating an obvious truth - your wife is an alcoholic. She may be functioning but there are definitely issues with addiction involved.

Is there a reason you haven't insisted she get help ???

Mr. Lucky

June 27, 2016

Reading this, replacing one son for two, it could have been my exW's best friend. Accepting that everyone is different, if she's been on the bottle throughout life, self-medicating or not, it's highly unlikely, though possible, that she can change. In any event, that change will come from her, for her, for it to stick.

In my anecdote, no joy, tried the interventions, detox, etc, finally her H gave up after 20 and got a D, then she died a couple years later. What a waste. Her personality was different from your exW though, always pleasant and polite, helping others but stuffing down emotions and medicating them with alcohol. Really sad.

Hope you guys can resolve this so your children can have a healthy, and living, mother, regardless of the marital disposition, as well as a less stressed and harried father. Life's too short.

June 27, 2016

Not sure why you avoid stating an obvious truth - your wife is an alcoholic. She may be functioning but there are definitely issues with addiction involved.

Is there a reason you haven't insisted she get help ???

Mr. Lucky

A number of years ago, she embarrassed herself at one of my work functions and went to ONE AA meeting. Since then nothing has been so severe it has caused a major issue. Mostly she drinks and leads to arguments or her being nasty (moreso than usual) then we go to bed and wake up like nothing has happened. I don't like confrontation and I would say I have a weak persona vs her very over-the-top persona.

It is my fault too. She has almost guilted me into going out for a bite to eat and drinks (2-3 X per week). Says we need one on one time. I always do and we end up drinking a fair amount. I don't even like to drink that much. I just do it to appease her.

June 27, 2016

I will also note that I love my kids more than anything. I love spending time with them. Sometimes family time (all of us) is special and depending on Ws mood, it is stressful and exhausting.

I just don't enjoy being around her anymore, well except maybe 20% of the time. I think I would enjoy being alone much much better. I just don't know if I can go thru the pain and stress of divorce and put the kids thru that. Plus of the judgment from family and friends.

June 27, 2016

snip

It is my fault too. She has almost guilted me into going out for a bite to eat and drinks (2-3 X per week). Says we need one on one time. I always do and we end up drinking a fair amount. I don't even like to drink that much. I just do it to appease her.

The three critical faults in modern men:

Apathy

Passivity

Naiveté

"Apathy is an absence or suppression of passion, emotion, or excitement."

"Passivity is allowing others to do things to you without complaining or pushing back. The baby-sitter's passivity led her charges to walk all over her. They stayed up all night and tied her to the chair, and all she said was, "Please stop misbehaving."

"Naiveté is the quality or state of being naive; artlessly simple."

Take care.

June 27, 2016

Since then nothing has been so severe it has caused a major issue. Mostly she drinks and leads to arguments or her being nasty (moreso than usual)

A lifetime of drama, dissension and arguments isn't a major issue?

It is my fault too. She has almost guilted me into going out for a bite to eat and drinks (2-3 X per week). Says we need one on one time. I always do and we end up drinking a fair amount. I don't even like to drink that much. I just do it to appease her.

You're an enabler, a pretty common role for a family member to assume. In exchange for the short-time term peace, you allow her to continue to abuse her substance of choice. These actions lock you in the dance you've performed for the last decade or more.

Were it me, I'd want to see what a sober marriage was like with the mother of my children. But that requires the courage necessary to address the elephant in the room - her drinking and your passive acceptance of it. Hard work ahead, only you can decide its worth in your life...

Mr. Lucky

June 27, 2016

snip

The three critical faults in modern men:

Apathy
Passivity
Naiveté

"Apathy is an absence or suppression of passion, emotion, or excitement."

"Passivity is allowing others to do things to you without complaining or pushing back. The baby-sitter's passivity led her charges to walk all over her. They stayed up all night and tied her to the chair, and all she said was, "Please stop misbehaving."

"Naiveté is the quality or state of being naive; artlessly simple."

Take care.

Yep, I think I am all 3. especially passivity. She has a very domineering personality and I am more laid back.

June 27, 2016

A lifetime of drama, dissension and arguments isn't a major issue?

You're an enabler, a pretty common role for a family member to assume. In exchange for the short-time term peace, you allow her to continue to abuse her substance of choice. These actions lock you in the dance you've performed for the last decade or more.

Were it me, I'd want to see what a sober marriage was like with the mother of my children. But that requires the courage necessary to address the elephant in the room - her drinking and your passive acceptance of it. Hard work ahead, only you can decide its worth in your life...

Mr. Lucky

I am going to bring it up soon. But then I think her mom did it constantly with her dad over the years. I just don't think I want to be dealing with it for the rest of my life - at least the years that are worth it.

Aside from her drinking - I think I am done with the exhaustion that goes with her confrontational, argumentative personality. It is just constant. Not just with me and family but other social situations.

I decided the other night that I need to just end it but then the next morning things went well. Again, if not for kids, it would be easy.

June 27, 2016

I am the sole income for our marriage. Wife has not had a full time job for 8-10 years. I make a very good living. [] It is just a matter of when not if I will seek the D. Kids' well being is the biggest hold up for me. Could be this year, 3 years or 6 years.

I realize it is part my doing and I have financial responsibilities. I assume it is usually a 50-50 split of assets and I am okay with that. But I guess it can be more skewed to non-working spouse. We are potentially relocating soon to W's hometown for my job, different state which may complicate matters.

How long are alimony/spousal support agreements typically in place?

Any other factors?

Edited June 27, 2016 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Merge content on a similar topic

June 27, 2016

Here's the code in my jurisdiction:

CA Codes (fam:4320-4326)

Unless the family law court/government in yours doesn't yet have code published online, it should take about ten seconds to find it, then a lot longer to read it. That's why lawyers make the big bucks. Heh.

June 27, 2016

Simple answer to your question "To Divorce or Not"... yes, you should divorce.

Here are your own words that support the answer:

"Sometimes family time ....depending on Ws mood .... is stressful and exhausting."

"I just don't enjoy being around her anymore. I think I would enjoy being alone much much better. I just don't know if I can go thru the pain and stress of divorce and put the kids thru that. Plus of the judgment from family and friends."

"Aside from her drinking - I think I am done with the exhaustion that goes with her confrontational, argumentative personality. It is just constant. Not just with me and family but other social situations. I decided the other night that I need to just end it but then the next morning things went well. Again, if not for kids, it would be easy."

For a moment, set aside what is best for you or your wife and focus only on what's best for the kids. In many situations, the trauma of living inside a home full of confrontation resulting from alcoholism is WAY MORE TRAUMA than the the trauma of having the parents divorce, and then adjust to the new situation. Please do not assume it's best for the kids if you stay together longer, when in fact staying together is probably not best for them.

The judgment from your family and friends ought to be TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to you, so please start immediately to remove that excuse from the table. You are looking to protect yourself and your children, anyone else's opinion is not important.

You have pretty much already made the decision and you know in your heart that a divorce is necessary for you and the kids. Take action NOW, don't wait for years, only to have a future where your adult children tell you "Dad, we were so unhappy in that situation when we were 12 and 14, why didn't you take action to provide us with a peaceful stable life?"

June 27, 2016

Just as your wife learned to act in the world from her dad, your children are learning from her.

And your actions tell them that her behavior is OK. It's OK to be that way.

Yes, you should leave.

Go for 1/2 time custody. Even though they have one house with yelling and drinking and crazy, they will have one house with peace and calm and laughter.

I wouldn't wait.

And believe me - the same people who will judge you for leaving currently judge you for staying. They will always judge you for something. So may as well be happy.

If you aren't ready for divorce, then just see an attorney for a legal separation. Make a temporary custody agreement part of the separation. Give your wife an ultimatum to quit drinking and get some counseling for her behavioral issues. See what happens.

Although - it does suck for her to live in your ex-gf's shadow. That wasn't nice to tell her that.

June 28, 2016

Yep, I think I am all 3. especially passivity. She has a very domineering personality and I am more laid back.

Laid back is accidently dropping a full jar of pickle relish and having it splat all over the kitchen and saying "dammit!" and then grabbing the mop and bucket and cleaning it up and then getting back to whatever it was you were doing.

What you are doing here is not laid back.

What you are doing is being codependent and enabling.

By not having strength and moral courage and not taking a leadership role in your household and not holding your wife accountable for her actions and not getting her the intervention and help she needs to be a normal, healthy, functioning human being, you are allowing this to fester and degrade into chaos.

June 28, 2016

Again, if not for kids, it would be easy.

You are continually blaming your children for keeping them in a toxic, dysfunctional and potentially harmful environment. Does that sound fair to them?

You are holding them responsible for your inaction which in turn is keeping them exposed to this dysfunctional and toxic environment.

Stop that.

She is an alcoholic and she is aggressive and abusive. This is a toxic environment.

The definition of something being "toxic" means that being exposed to it causes more harm than it's absence. Think about that statement real hard.

June 28, 2016

.....in other words, you are causing your children more harm by forcing them to remain in this environment than if you were to divorce and take them out of that environment.

As a codependent and an enabler, you aren't able to see that.

That's why your first step is you need to get some individual counseling for yourself so you are able to pull your head out and actually see the situation for what it really is.

June 28, 2016

Thanks for the good advice and I know I would be happier in the long run.

Couple things to clarify - I wouldn't say her emotional state & alcohol issues is the abusive kind you see on made for tv movies. I guess I would call it more stress/tension filled type. Some of it is caused by her bi-polar issues.

25% of the time she is happy, good mood, loving wife & mother

25% I would describe as "normal"

50% it is the woe is me, nobody likes me. You can't say anything remotely that could be construed as critical about her - ex her cooking, how's she dressed. Best described as having to walk on egg shells around her.

Alcohol intensifies the first and last category. The good and the bad but usually if it starts with the good, the effects of the alcohol push her mood in the bad category.

She does a lot of good for the family too. She manages the kids activities and school work. Our kids are doing well in school and developing. It seems to me they don't see much of the issues in the 50% category.

June 28, 2016

one doesn't have to beat people with electrical cords or chain them from the ceiling in the basement to be abusive.

Abusive is knowingly causing physical pain, emotional distress, hurt feelings, social isolation, isolation from family etc etc to other person.

That is clearly taking place here.

You not being able to see that is part of your codependence.

June 28, 2016

It seems to me they don't see much of the issues in the 50% category.

Yes they do.

That is also part of your denial and codependence.

June 28, 2016

Has you wife actually being diagnosed by a psychiatrist as bipolar, or are you just guessing that she might be?

I ask, because as someone who is bipolar I hate how the word is so carelessly thrown around.

My mother made it crystal clear to me from when I was about 10 that she was basically sacrificing her own happiness to stay married to my father 'for her children'...my father ended up leaving her for another woman when my younger brother turned 18.

Now my mother blames me for her marriage ending - and she's said this to my face more than once - because I had the nerve to get married earlier that year (I was 21) and 'made my father feel old'...he was 40 at the time...if I hadn't married, he wouldn't have felt old, wouldn't have had an affair and left her. So it's all my fault. Bear in mind, this all happened 26 years ago and she's STILL blaming me!

The result? I live on the other side of the world from my mother. I don't deal with emotional terrorists or martyrs. You may think you are doing the best for your children - you aren't. And don't think they aren't picking up on your self sacrificing attitude...like I've said, I was 10 when I realized what was going on. All it did was make me dislike both of them for living a lie.

June 28, 2016

Yes they do.

That is also part of your denial and codependence.

She treats our kids great and does a lot for them. It is pretty rare when I see her act irrational or drunk around the kids. Maybe once every six months or so, the kids see that mommy has had too much to drink.

She has other issues as well. I am not sure what you call it but I would describe it as wanting to be loved, accepted, etc. and trying to "buy" that to some extent. She has trouble saying no to the kids when they ask for something. She goes overboard in buying gifts for people. Not necessarily dollar amount but just gifts that seem odd to me. Example,

Her sisters neighbor had a low key cookout on father's day. Her sister said she didn't need to bring anything except a side dish. She ended up getting my brother in law (sister's H) a set of beer steins for fathers day and the neighbor a little gift too. I say it is weird b/c we don't get each other spouses father's day gifts. Side story - the neighbor and bil and my W started getting into a political debate and ended up with my W getting upset with them. I mean there cant even be a father's day cookout with some sort of confrontation with her. She wasn't even drinking that much - maybe just a glass of wine or two.

There are countless other examples of her going overboard with spending and getting gifts for people. I can be labeled as frugal but our credit card bills are enormous. She is not involved in family finances and when I try to bring it up her domineering personality always has an excuse or puts the blame back on me.

June 28, 2016

Has you wife actually being diagnosed by a psychiatrist as bipolar, or are you just guessing that she might be?

I ask, because as someone who is bipolar I hate how the word is so carelessly thrown around.

My mother made it crystal clear to me from when I was about 10 that she was basically sacrificing her own happiness to stay married to my father 'for her children'...my father ended up leaving her for another woman when my younger brother turned 18.

Now my mother blames me for her marriage ending - and she's said this to my face more than once - because I had the nerve to get married earlier that year (I was 21) and 'made my father feel old'...he was 40 at the time...if I hadn't married, he wouldn't have felt old, wouldn't have had an affair and left her. So it's all my fault. Bear in mind, this all happened 26 years ago and she's STILL blaming me!

The result? I live on the other side of the world from my mother. I don't deal with emotional terrorists or martyrs. You may think you are doing the best for your children - you aren't. And don't think they aren't picking up on your self sacrificing attitude...like I've said, I was 10 when I realized what was going on. All it did was make me dislike both of them for living a lie.

Thanks - that is good perspective. She does have bi-polar and is on medication for it. Has been for a long time - off and on since college I believe.

June 28, 2016

As a child of an alcoholic let me tell you, you are not doing your kids any favors by sticking around.

My mom was always negative as well. It ruined my self esteem. AS angry as I am with her I am also very angry with my dad.

HE is passive and always tries to keep the peace etc an enabler ... What this really meant is that no one was there to advocate for me. It sucks as a kid knowing that neither of you parents have your back.

It was awful to grow up in a household where your mom is basically Jekyll and hide, depending on the amount of boos she drank that night.

June 28, 2016

I think you need to talk to her and tell her she either gets help for her alcohol abuse and her bipolar, or it is a divorce.

Excessive alcohol intake is often about self medication, I do not think your wife is particularly happy here, therapy or altering her medication may help. The incentive of the impending divorce may force her to get the help she needs.

Seems that if she could be sorted out, then it would be a win/win for your kids(divorce is often very hard on kids) and for you too.

June 28, 2016

It sucks as a kid knowing that neither of you parents have your back.

So much this. My parents were too busy focusing on themselves and their self made dramas to take much notice of their children. We weren't starved or beaten, but we weren't encouraged, respected or made to feel wanted.

Being bipolar is tough. Never quite knowing if your reactions are real or due to the disease. Medication can help, but it doesn't completely erase the condition. And the side effects can be rough too. Drinking - I used to drink too much, and it only made things worse. I drink very rarely now. Took me awhile to get to that point though.

Your wife needs professional help. I hope for everyone's sake she can get some.

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