To Divorce or Not? [UPDATE Divorce - Anyway to soften the blow?]

[anika99]

I see you have referred to your wife as bipolar a couple of time but I don't get the impression she has ever been diagnosed by a professional. I don't get the impression that she is bipolar from your description. To me she sounds like an alcoholic who is possibly personality disordered, perhaps some narcissism or borderline personality. In any case it's hard to diagnose or treat mental illness when it's being masked or exacerbated by substance abuse.

 

If you continue on as you have been you will wind up just like her mother, 70yrs old and still waiting and hoping that someday things will get better. Your first order of business is to free yourself of the vicious codependent cycle you have going on. You don't have to divorce to do that and in fact it may be better to not make any life changing decisions until you have taken care of your own mental health.

 

I spent years with an alcoholic and Alanon was my life saver. They helped me to take my focus of my alcoholic partner and put it back on myself. To accept that I could not help, change, control or manage my alcoholic but to realize that my happiness did not depend on him. Shift your focus from your wife onto yourself. Once you mentally and emotionally get off the codependent/alcoholic merry go round, your confusion will lessen, you will feel an inner calm and the answers will be clear.

[Mr. Lucky]

I spent years with an alcoholic and Alanon was my life saver. They helped me to take my focus of my alcoholic partner and put it back on myself. To accept that I could not help, change, control or manage my alcoholic but to realize that my happiness did not depend on him. Shift your focus from your wife onto yourself. Once you mentally and emotionally get off the codependent/alcoholic merry go round, your confusion will lessen, you will feel an inner calm and the answers will be clear.

 

Having dealt with addiction in my family, couldn't agree with this more. Just knowing others have had the same disconnect from a loved one is empowering because addiction is such an isolating disease.

 

OP, you'd find an Al-Anon meeting to be an eye-opener...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Angelica21]

I'd like to suggest what seems like a perfect solution for you:

 

find a home (house, condo, apartment) that is relatively close to your current home, buy or rent that second home, and move in

 

no need to immediately start proceedings for divorce or legal separation; just live separately for a while as all of you figure things out

 

arrange to have your sons stay with you at your home sometimes, and stay with their mom in the original home sometimes

 

the physical distance will give you and your sons some emotional relief, and a safe, sane place to spend part of your time. It will give you an opportunity to think more clearly.

 

when a loved one has an addiction and possible personality disorder, it's very hard for you to understand the right thing to do. As some have suggested, attempts to help become enabling and co-dependent, and ultimately don't help at all. And yet a person can be reluctant to abandon, because they really do love and care for the addict.

 

by living separately and getting some counseling and assistance for yourself, your sons and your wife, you'll all gradually understand better the best choices and worst choices, you'll understand better what you can and can't do.

 

you'll be able to give your wife genuine help and support, rather than enabling and co-dependent support.

 

please consider getting that second home in order to give your sons some relief from the stress in your house. She can continue to be a good mom and help them and love them when they are staying with her. You can continue to be a good dad when they're with you.

 

even if you believe that a temporary separate living will ultimately become a divorce, there's no need to state that at the beginning. By presenting it to everyone as a temporary solution and opportunity for problem solving, it will make the transition smoother for your children.

 

when you're living in a separate home and get some relief from the emotional exhaustion, you'll be able to think more clearly.

[SammySammy]

Abuse is a deal breaker for me. Any kind of abuse. Physical. Verbal. Substance.

 

Abuse of yourself. Abuse of others.

 

It doesn't matter. I've found my life is better not having to deal with that. That's why I try to end it at the earliest sign - the abuse or the relationship.

 

After sixteen years and kids, I can understand the situation is different. Many factors have to considered. At some point, I still think the effect alcoholism has on the family - the children particularly - should be unacceptable. We all have to face our demons. Sometimes that's addiction. Sometimes that's drawing a line in the sand and saying no.

[standtall]

Your wedding vows said in sickness and in health right? Your wife needs your help...it is your duty to at least put forth and A game effort and help her fight her issues. I'm not saying go down with her, but it doesn't seem that you have done enough.

Edited June 28, 2016 by standtall
MS

[Wookin Pa Nub]

Your wedding vows said in sickness and in health right? Your wife needs your help...it is your duty to at least put forth and A game effort and help her fight her issues. I'm not saying go down with her, but it doesn't seem that you have done enough.

 

If I am honest, part of the issue is down deep I never felt a great love for her. I met her at a bad time in my life and wanted to settle down with the first girl that was interested. She was fun to hang out with and my family loved her. My W blames it on me having issues with my ex college gf. IMO if I met the right girl my ex college gf would be an afterthought.

 

 

I have reminded myself over the years: "you made this bed, now you got to lay in it".

[Wookin Pa Nub]

Having dealt with addiction in my family, couldn't agree with this more. Just knowing others have had the same disconnect from a loved one is empowering because addiction is such an isolating disease.

 

OP, you'd find an Al-Anon meeting to be an eye-opener...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

 

 

Thanks I will look into it. I guess I should not just give up without attempting to find a solution to the issues.

[NTV]

Just something I heard somewhere...

 

 

Q:

"when should I get a divorce?"

 

 

A:

"When your desire not to see your spouse everyday outweighs your desire to see your kids everyday"

 

 

 

 

Seemed like it might apply here....

[hotgurl]

Your wedding vows said in sickness and in health right? Your wife needs your help...it is your duty to at least put forth and A game effort and help her fight her issues. I'm not saying go down with her, but it doesn't seem that you have done enough.

 

yes but only she can get sober. She has got to want it. I know on this subject I am biased but I would leave.

[Angelica21]

You said "I have reminded myself over the years: "you made this bed, now you got to lay in it".

 

You are not in this situation alone. You have two children to consider, and being a martyr is not going to help your boys.

 

The passive nature that you admitted about yourself is definitely evident in your responses and your point of view about this situation. You definitely convey that you don't want to take action and don't plan to take action.

 

There are plenty of ways that you can help your wife, without living with her, and without being married to her. You already indicated that you would always provide for her financially. You can also maintain a supportive relationship with her, even if you don't live with her or if you divorce her.

 

Personally, I don't believe that marriage vows are intended to imprison one spouse when the other spouse becomes an alcohol or drug addict, or when one spouse devolves into mental illness.

 

Another point that you haven't mentioned: your wife might actually feel better and get better by living alone some of the time, with less aggravations and stress to set her off.

[Mittens]

 

Another point that you haven't mentioned: your wife might actually feel better and get better by living alone some of the time, with less aggravations and stress to set her off.

 

In my experience this has been true. My ex husband wasn't that supportive of my mental illness - one of those people who paid lip service to the idea, but in reality made it pretty clear that as far as he was concerned, all I had to do was 'pull myself together'...if it was that easy, didn't he think I would do exactly that?

 

Just been there doesn't help. Particularly if you are making the person feel guilty about their illness. Being bipolar isn't something your wife chooses to be, believe me, no one would! For me personally, there was nothing worse than having to deal with someone on a daily basis who had no real empathy for the situation. I'm not saying you should let your wife get away with bad behavior, but acting the martyr and being passive will be acting as a trigger to her.

[Cherryz]

´In sickness and in health, till dead do us part´

 

 

Your wife is going true the same path as her father.

She is repeating the cycle. And she needs to break it for the sake of her kids to

have a better life and not same patern!

 

Even thou you may not be the root of her drinking and her acting up all the time,

you are not innocent. Its clear both of you has done things that hurt each-other and

as in any relationship both have things to work on.

First for yourself and for a better marriage and for your kids.

Because they have to deal with the stress and drama also of all of this.

Also by seeing this as example they may grow up dealing with conflicts and people also

this way and with their emotions.

 

Have a serious conversation with your wife. And be open like you are with us about her behavior and drinking.

Be calm and come from a place of love. Do this when the kids are not home so you wont be disturbed. And let her know how it effect you. And you dont feel that you can handle it any longer and she need to get help.

I think you and her need to get help from a professional. A therapist and she needs to

get help so she can stop drinking.

Being addict to stuff, is often not the real issue. Its a outcome people choose so they can try to deal or escape the other deeper issues they have.

 

Go look up therapist and have visits and see which one is a good one for you and her and go together. And if its needed also do individual sessions.

And be honest and open, go true all the things that bother you guys work on it.

Read also some self help books. And make some dates with her in the park. Where its calm and relaxing to rebuilt the relationship.

[standtall]

yes but only she can get sober. She has got to want it.

 

Of course, that goes without saying. But he is obligated to support her as her husband.

 

What is the point of getting married, saying vows, and entering a contract in front of God and everyone else, with no intention of honoring said contract? Weak.

[pteromom]

50% it is the woe is me, nobody likes me. You can't say anything remotely that could be construed as critical about her - ex her cooking, how's she dressed. Best described as having to walk on egg shells around her.

 

Our kids are doing well in school and developing. It seems to me they don't see much of the issues in the 50% category.

 

You are right! They don't SEE it. You know why? Because this is normal to them.

 

I had a very dysfunctional childhood, and I still don't trust my definition of "normal" because the reality I grew up in was so skewed.

 

It messed me up MUCH MORE than it would have if I had seen the bad and had been able to define it as BAD as a child.

 

If nothing else, even if you stay, make sure you are talking to your kids about right and wrong and how to love someone and about all the topics that their mother's behavior affects. Let them know it isn't ok. In a way that is very loving and respectful to them and to their mother - you aren't trying to throw her under a bus. You just want them to understand what's not ok.

[oldshirt]

Just something I heard somewhere...

 

 

Q:

"when should I get a divorce?"

 

 

A:

"When your desire not to see your spouse everyday outweighs your desire to see your kids everyday"

 

 

 

 

Seemed like it might apply here....

 

 

That or when the pain of staying outweighs the fear of leaving.

[Wookin Pa Nub]

That or when the pain of staying outweighs the fear of leaving.

 

I am just really conflicted. Some days it is good, really good - she is my best friend, great mother. Other days - walking on egg shells, she's in a ****ty mood. I wish I was on my own.

 

 

Overall - maybe because of my nature that I prefer solitude, but I prefer being on my own without her as she will spend days with her parents in a different city. This is awful but I sometimes I think to myself that if I found out she was killed in a car crash, I am not sure I would be terribly upset. Terrible I know.

[oldshirt]

I am just really conflicted. Some days it is good, really good - she is my best friend, great mother. Other days - walking on egg shells, she's in a ****ty mood. I wish I was on my own.

 

 

Overall - maybe because of my nature that I prefer solitude, but I prefer being on my own without her as she will spend days with her parents in a different city. This is awful but I sometimes I think to myself that if I found out she was killed in a car crash, I am not sure I would be terribly upset. Terrible I know.

 

I have trouble grasping an alcoholic being a good mother, but ok let's take your word for it.

 

If you were to divorce, wouldn't she still be a good mother?

 

Could you remain on amicable and friendly terms if you were to divorce? Would you be able to cooperatively coparent together from separate homes?

 

In other words, if she is a "great mother" and a friend now, would divorce turn her into a bad mother and an enemy?

[Angelica21]

 

If you were to divorce, wouldn't she still be a good mother?

 

Could you remain on amicable and friendly terms if you were to divorce? Would you be able to cooperatively coparent together from separate homes?

 

In other words, if she is a "great mother" and a friend now, would divorce turn her into a bad mother and an enemy?

 

Thank you so much for writing this response, oldshirt! This is exactly what I was trying to say in some of my previous posts, but not nearly as well! You captured and said it so succinctly and clearly!

 

Wookin Pa Nub: your continuous theme is "I'm so conflicted".

 

Therefore, why not try one simple action that is totally reversible and can be undone: rent an apartment nearby and move in there for a while.

 

Then, observe how that works out for everyone.

 

You can always move out of the apartment and back into the original house with your wife if you observe that living in the apartment is not a good solution.

 

But, if you observe that the apartment is a good solution, then you accomplished Step 1 and you can move on to Step 2.

 

Sometimes we feel conflicted because it seems that the choices we are picking from are all permanent choices. You can pick the temporary choice described above, and then change back if you need. Knowing that the apartment can be a temporary arrangement will give you the courage and confidence to try it.

[Cherryz]

Thats sad to say.

 

Maybe you took to much of her **** without stand up ever, so far that you just feel tired now of it all.

And maybe also having hurt of all those years.

 

I think therapy could help both open up and be honest about this hidden pains and things. And work toward healing and solution.

[Cherryz]

I am just really conflicted. Some days it is good, really good - she is my best friend, great mother. Other days - walking on egg shells, she's in a ****ty mood. I wish I was on my own.

 

 

Overall - maybe because of my nature that I prefer solitude, but I prefer being on my own without her as she will spend days with her parents in a different city. This is awful but I sometimes I think to myself that if I found out she was killed in a car crash, I am not sure I would be terribly upset. Terrible I know.

my last post was a reply to this ^

[Downtown]

She does have bi-polar and is on medication for it.

Wookin, perhaps your W does suffer from bipolar-2 as she claims. I nonetheless agree with Anika (post #26) that the behaviors you describe -- e.g., her black-white thinking, temper tantrums, controlling actions, lack of impulse control (excessive drinking), and rapid flips between Jekyll (adoring you) and Hyde (devaluing you) -- are warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), not for bipolar-2. Importantly, I am not suggesting that your W exhibits full-blown BPD but, rather, that she may exhibit moderate to strong traits of it.

 

Even if your W does suffer from bipolar-2, this would not rule out her also exhibiting strong BPD traits. A recent large-scale study found that, of those adults exhibiting bipolar-2 disorder in the past 12 months, 40% of them also suffer from co-occurring BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Moreover, therapists have difficulty distinguishing between these two disorders in a 50-minute meeting held every week or two because it may take them several years to witness the dysfunctional behaviors you see all week long. It therefore is common for BPD to be misdiagnosed as "bipolar."

 

Best described as having to walk on egg shells around her.

Your feeling of "walking on eggshells" is to be expected if your W is a BPDer (i.e., exhibits strong and persistent traits). Because a BPDer carries enormous anger inside from early childhood, you don't have to do a thing to CREATE the anger. Rather, you only have to say or do some minor thing that TRIGGERS the anger that is already there. This is why a BPDer can flip, in only ten seconds, from adoring you to devaluing you. And this is why the best-selling BPD book (targeted to the abused partners) is titled Stop Walking on Eggshells.

 

Aside from the issues above she can be very loving and caring and my family just adores her. They don't see the other side and I never mention it.

The vast majority of BPDers -- even those exhibiting full-blown BPD -- usually are very loving and caring individuals. They are high functioning and typically are able to get along well with casual friends, business associates, and total strangers. None of those people see the dark side because they never draw close in a LTR. Thus, they are unable to trigger a BPDer's two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. There is no close LTR that can be abandoned and no intimacy to cause the suffocating feeling of engulfment.

 

She lost her best friend from college one night. They were drinking and my wife just pushed and pushed like usual and this friend said I am done with your drama.

If your W really does exhibit strong BPD traits, any casual friend that makes the mistake of moving close and becoming a "best friend" will start triggering one of her two great fears. When this occurs, the BPDer will create a fight -- over absolutely nothing at all -- to push that friend away.

 

This is why BPDers may have many casual friends but rarely have any close long term friends (unless that close friend lives a long distance away). With my BPDer exW, for example, her BFFs typically lasted about five years, at which point she would take great offense over some imagined slight and push her best friend away. I saw that happen 3 times in 15 years and none of the 3 ex-friends ever spoke to her again.

 

My W gets in arguments in social situations constantly usually while drinking but sometimes not.

Most people exhibiting strong BPD traits do not have a lifetime BPD problem. Instead, they are exhibiting a strong flareup of the BPD traits that we all have. The two most common causes of such BPD trait flareups are strong hormone changes (e.g., puberty, pregnancy, postpartum, PMS, or perimenopause) or drug abuse.

 

Hence, if your W is exhibiting strong BPD traits, an important issue is whether these traits are temporary flareups caused by alcohol abuse or, rather, whether the alcohol abuse is being caused by a persistent, lifetime BPD problem. As Anika explained above, it can be hard for a psychologist to spot a persistent BPD or NPD problem when it's being masked or exacerbated by substance abuse.

 

If your W's BPD symptoms actually are strong and persistent, they likely started showing strongly by her mid-teens and would have disappeared during your courtship. Then, after about six months or so (when her infatuation for you started to evaporate), they likely would have started showing in your presence.

 

Any advice is welcome.

Wookin, if you are still uncertain about whether to divorce your W, my advice is to obtain a clearer idea of what it is you will be dealing with if you choose to stay with her. Toward that end, I join Anika in suggesting that you be careful to distinguish between between bipolar and BPD behaviors. This distinction is important because, whereas bipolar usually can be treated quite successfully by swallowing a pill, BPD is very difficult to treat and medications will not make a dent in it. Not one dent.

 

I therefore suggest that you learn how to spot the warning signs for both disorders. An easy place to start reading is my post at 12 BPD/Bipolar Differences, which is based on my experiences with a bipolar-1 sufferer (my foster son) and a BPDer (my exW). If that description of BPD traits seems to describe your W's behavior, I would suggest you also check out my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs.

 

If most of those BPD red flags sound very familiar, I would suggest you see a psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is that you and your two kids are dealing with. And, while you're looking for a good psych, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of these warning signs at my posts in Rebel's Thread. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to join Anika and the other respondents in discussing them with you.

 

Significantly, learning to spot these warning signs will NOT enable you to diagnose your W's issues. Yet, like learning warning signs for stroke and heart attack, learning those for BPD may help you avoid a very painful situation -- e.g., avoid remaining in a toxic marriage or avoid running into the arms of another woman just like her. Moreover, learning the warning signs may help you decide whether there is sufficient reason to spend money seeking a professional opinion. Take care, Wookin.

[Wookin Pa Nub]

I have been unhappy for a long time but now I am just sick of the verbal and emotional abuse. I am sick of walking on egg shells for the past 17 years. I have thoughts about divorce for a long time but usually are quelled by a good period where I see the good parts of my wife and her as a mother.

 

 

I don't think I will pull the trigger for a while as we just moved and kids are getting adjusted to schools. It could be 6 months, it could be 2 years. For those that have gone thru this is there anything I should be planning for now?

 

 

I work and make a great salary. My W stays at home and spends all the money. We have some savings but not as much as you'd think for as much as I make per year. We have our house in W's name for legal protection (me business owner) but mortgage in both names. She has some small retirement accounts and I have more substantial retirement savings than W. We have two kids.

 

 

I want to be fair and certainly provide for my kids but part of me wants a little cushion to get thru the transition since I am sure she will remain in the house.

[LilyMila]

Did you confront her about her addiction? What action have you taken besides planning your exit? She has an addiction, but you have a problem of stick your head in the sand letting this go on with no concrete action.

 

My husband did something similar although I don't have an addiction. Our problem is that we were not in sync, so I overperform and he underperformed. When I asked him why he never bothered to express his feelings, he said his parents were divorced, all the work and fights seemed pointless and couldnt change the outcome which was why he didn't confront our problems. I am not innocent either. I think it was completely normal for married couples to have petty arguments about stupid things because that was what I know from watch my parents.

 

It is immensely unfair to arrive at a unilateral decision and plan that you will divorce her in X number of years when the situation feels more convenient. Divorce now or confront the addiction head on. We all carry our parents burden. Do you want to normalize addiction for the kids? Do you want to normalize divorce for the kids? Chances are good that your kids will encounter the exact same problems in adulthood that plague your marriage now. Break the damn cycle.

Edited January 17, 2017 by LilyMila

[Wookin Pa Nub]

I have made up my mind 98% and am planning on having the discussion in a couple months. You may know my backstory. Here are cliff notes. Me - never was 100% in love with W. I had serious doubts early on but was in a bad spot in my life and settled for something comfortable. Ex gf who I recently reconnected with has caused issues a few times in our marriage early on because I have let on my feelings for my ex gf. and we recently connected on FB. My wife has had doubts a couple times and questioned my love for her. I should have spoke up but I appeased my W. I was lying. I never loved W like my ex.

 

 

I have spent most of my married life appeasing my wife. Whenever she is upset at me for whatever reason I just take it to avoid any further blow up. This is what my kids see. We hardly ever fight in front of kids. Wife can be intimidating so I just take it.

 

 

I am my wife's only love ever and she is 110% dependent on me financially and emotionally. She is going to be devastated especially since I never have expressed my feelings ever before. She'll be blindsided.

 

 

Do I tell her the truth that she was right and I never loved her 100% or use some ancillary reasons like her drinking and temper. If I was committed to her I could work with her on her drinking and temper but the root cause is I don't love her like a husband should.

 

 

I am terrified of the discussion. Is there anyway to soften the blow? I was thinking about leaving the house during one of her "flare ups" and then having the discussion the next day when I return.

[S2B]

Get professional help FIRST.

 

When you move to the next relationship the dynamics will be the same if YOU don't change the way YOU participate.

 

Try being honest in the marriage with your wife.

 

She can either work with you or against you. Then you will know what is right for your future.