What Do I Have That a Woman Would Want?

[Wave Rider]

In talking with my therapist, one of the things that's come up is that I have trouble believing that I have something to offer women that they would want. This probably comes from childhood wounding blah blah blah. In the relationships that I've been in, it's never been clear to me exactly what my girlfriends liked about me, because they didn't say much about it. It seemed that they liked me, but I was never sure why.

 

So what do I like about women? I like a woman who looks young and beautiful, who is interesting to talk to, who has common interests to me, and who stirs a kind of magical chemistry (the chemistry part turns out to be dangerous, so I'm careful with that, because I often feel chemistry for women who are bad for me.)

 

But what is it about me that she would like? What am I offering that she would want? Is it's because I'm a man with a (future) fancy degree? Interesting conversations about physics and the universe? Some good jokes? A car? Ballroom and swing dancing skills? Clever opinions on politics? Being taller than average? Decorating my apartment in a beach theme? My athletic and surfing abilities? My creative and artistic in addition to being scientific? I'm not really sure.

 

My employer (my university) values my research skills, and I understand the skills that they consider valuable, and I a paid for those skills. But I don't really know what it is about me that women would value.

 

Something that really seems to bother people is that we are usually initially attracted to people for shallow and superficial reasons. Looks, money, status, age, etc. are usually our primary filters for choosing prospective partners, and yet people really object to this, saying, "I want someone who likes me for who I am inside, not for the way I look." But usually people who say this still use the superficial markers for deciding who they are initially attracted to.

 

So I am confused about what women have liked about me in the past, and what they might like about me now. And I'm having trouble feeling like, on an emotional level, that I have things to offer women that they would want. I would appreciate any insight.

[mrs rubble]

It sounds like you have a lot that a woman would find attractive.

To me attitude is everything.

Confidence, treating others kindly and respectfully, managing anger effectively and a sense of humor are by far the most important traits I find attractive.

[Lady2163]

I don't know your age, but I'm around 50. I married in my early 20s and divorced in my early 30s. I don't know that my wants in a man have changed all much.

 

What appeals to me, what I like to see in a man:

 

Appearance and sexual compatibility. This is different for each person. You like them young and beautiful, which is fine. The only thing I've noticed about "pretty girls" is they don't usually try as hard and can make a man jump through hoops. They put a lot of worth on their looks. Which will fade and/or cost more money as they get older.

 

Financial stability and upward mobility. Every six to eight years I've moved up a notch in my housing situation. I've just about reached the pinnacle of what I'm willing to have as a single person. Anything bigger and I'm not going to want to clean it/maintain it. As far as stability, I want someone who is able to have fun, not pinch pennies, but has a plan for retirement and/or children's college fund.

 

Self-government. This is the "little things". Does he put the toilet seat down? Does he take out the garbage without being asked or told? Does he do all chores without being asked or told? Does he hit the hamper with his dirty clothes or leave them on the floor? Does he put his glass in the sink, on the counter or dishwasher? Is he a grown up looking for an adult relationship or a child looking for a mommy - and sex.

 

If he doesn't pick up after himself, then it goes without saying that SOMEONE will be picking up after him - namely me. That's a quick way for resentment to build. Just because it's my job to do the laundry doesn't mean I should have to pick it up from the bedroom and bathroom floor and the hamper.

 

Companionship. Do we like doing the same things? Do we have common interests?

 

Along with companionship is just general compatibility. I'm American, Christian, Caucasian, registered Independent, but lean to the left. I'm not going to be interested in someone from Europe who wants to live in Europe. I'm probably not going to be compatible with someone who is atheist or any religion that isn't Christian. Vice versa - I won't be their ideal, either.

[preraph]

Are your women all in the past? If so, maybe they thought they liked you until they got to know you better. I'm guessing they liked your looks and general appearance enough to date you but didn't stick either because getting to know you didn't make them like you more for whatever reason. I mean, everyone likes to just date and have a bf or gf. When you're young, sometimes that's enough, just wanting to have one. It's not like those young loves usually turn into anything mature and lasting, though. Someone decides to explore.

 

I do think one thing you are lacking is a certain confidence, or you wouldn't be spending so much time trying to dissect what makes a woman like you.

[Wave Rider]

I appreciate the replies, but I'm not hoping for this to become another "what women want in a man" conversation, because I've had a hundred of those and they've gotten me nowhere. I'll try to explain a little more of what I mean.

 

The fact is that dating is competitive. Maybe I do have a lot going for me, but I'm competing against other men who also have a lot going for them. Let's say that I go out swing dancing one night, and I dance with 20 women. Chances are that those women will also have danced with 20 other men that night. What is it about me that would make me stand out in those women's minds from those 20 other men? What is my "competitive advantage" in the "dating marketplace"?

 

Most of contemporary dating advice uses the economic model of relationships, wherein each of us attempts to maximize our self-interest by finding the most attractive mate we can find at the minimum cost to ourselves. I don't think that the economic model is a great model, but I'm using it for the moment, because it seems to fit fairly well in that I do tend to pursue women who are more attractive, and who therefore have more options with men. I do get attention from these women, but I never really know why, and I never was able to figure out what it was about me that she liked, and by the time it's registered in my mind that she's interested, she sees that I'm clueless and moves on.

 

Some people are hot and they know they're hot, and they milk it for all it's worth. But others have a less high opinion of themselves. I often miss signals of interest from women because I never could figure out why she liked me, or why she would choose me over the 20 other men who have talked to her that day. I guess if I felt more confident that I had some competitive advantage, I would be more responsive to signals of interest from women. Some reason she would have to choose me over her other options. Some competitive advantage other than "just being myself." Do you know what I mean?

[Buddhist]

So I am confused about what women have liked about me in the past, and what they might like about me now. And I'm having trouble feeling like, on an emotional level, that I have things to offer women that they would want. I would appreciate any insight.

 

No idea. You'd have to ask the women from your past, they know you. No-one on this board does. Nothing you've written in your OP really leaps out at me as being of interest tbh. It's a pretty standard list of things I think I'm good at, and what you like in women is equally unsurprising.

 

You seem to come at life the way a lot of people come at life, believing that what you do and the stuff you have is somehow a descriptor of what you are. Likewise you despise the superficiality of things but really like 'women', noted the vacant entity descriptor here for their youth & beauty. Big reveal there....You haven't said you liked any particular woman from your past for any reason that is unique to her.

 

Perhaps what you are struggling with is seeing others as unique individuals and probably by extension seeing yourself as a unique individual too. If that's where you struggle I'm unsurprised that you have trouble finding some unique value in yourself.

[basil67]

I tend to agree with Buddhist. There's nothing in the way you describe yourself which would make me jump up and want to meet you. It's not so much about how good you are at thing, It's about your company and how you spend your time.

 

For example, I love the beach. But the fact that you're a good surfer means nothing to me. I don't care if someone is a good surfer or not. However if you said that you enjoy getting to the beach frequently, I'd notice you. I'd also like to think you could come and enjoy body surfing with me. And go for a beer afterwards. What I want is lifestyle - not individual skill sets.

 

Your clever opinions on politics could be good for me - but only if you vote like I do. If you were to voice 'clever' opinions which I found offensive, I'd walk away.

 

And for what it's worth, starting your list with wanting a woman who "looks young and beautiful" would be an automatic deal breaker for me. When I was young and attractive, I realised that this priority shows that the person is shallow. And more importantly, he'd probably cease to care for me when I was no longer young and beautiful.

 

Edited to add: Ballroom dancing? Telling me you're good at it is ho hum. But telling me that you enjoy it gives me a clue as to what our life may be like together. I realise this sounds like semantics, but truly, think lifestyle - not expertise

Edited July 3, 2016 by basil67

[jen1447]

If you're having trouble identifying traits or qualities they'd like, maybe try looking at things they might not like and work on eliminating or downplaying those. Like a tendency to overanalyze everything.

[Wave Rider]

You seem to come at life the way a lot of people come at life, believing that what you do and the stuff you have is somehow a descriptor of what you are. Likewise you despise the superficiality of things but really like 'women', noted the vacant entity descriptor here for their youth & beauty. Big reveal there....You haven't said you liked any particular woman from your past for any reason that is unique to her.

 

Well, I'll say what I think, even if some people don't like it. The fact is that I rarely meet a woman whose personality is very interesting to me. I find men to be much more interesting to talk to than women, and I find male friendships to be deeper and more satisfying than female friendships. i like to talk about deep philosophical and intellectual and technical subjects, and I find that most women quickly lose interest in such conversations. If I try to have such conversations with a man, he'll jump in and keep talking with me about it, whereas a woman will usually act bored and will try to change the subject or leave. It's not that women can't understand such things, it's just that they're usually not interested in talking about them. That is the world as I have experienced it. The one woman whose personality I liked the most - my girlfriend before last - acted more like a man in this regard. I loved that I could talk about deep stuff with her, things that other women were not interested in talking about. Again, it's not that women can't understand that way of thinking about the world, it's that they don't seem interested in talking about it.

 

This has even been true of the graduate student women I've talked to. If I meet a neuroscience or biology major, I'll ask them a question I've had about neuroscience or biology, and they act like they're really not interested in talking about academic or intellectual topics outside of school, even if they're supposedly passionate about their subject of study.

 

So whenever I talk to a woman, my experience has been that I need to keep the conversation more superficial, because if I try to say something too deep or intellectual, I lose her attention. I know I'm going to anger the feminist lobby by saying this, but that's been my experience. As I said before, it's not that these women aren't smart. I'm saying that they're not interested in talking about these things. But men are interested in talking about these things, and so I find men to be more interesting conversationalists than women.

 

Perhaps what you are struggling with is seeing others as unique individuals and probably by extension seeing yourself as a unique individual too. If that's where you struggle I'm unsurprised that you have trouble finding some unique value in yourself.

 

I see people as being far more similar than they are different. If you ask 100 people what they want in life, I wager that at least 95 of them will give exactly the same answers: good relationships, a satisfying career, financial security, and happiness. When we're talking about mate selection, we usually focus on the differences between people, but I think that the differences between people are much smaller than the similarities. So I struggle with the idea that each individual is profoundly unique.

 

I tend to agree with Buddhist. There's nothing in the way you describe yourself which would make me jump up and want to meet you. It's not so much about how good you are at thing, It's about your company and how you spend your time.

 

For example, I love the beach. But the fact that you're a good surfer means nothing to me. I don't care if someone is a good surfer or not. However if you said that you enjoy getting to the beach frequently, I'd notice you. I'd also like to think you could come and enjoy body surfing with me. And go for a beer afterwards. What I want is lifestyle - not individual skill sets.

 

 

I get what you're saying here, and maybe…hmmm. Yeah, I like going to the beach, but I live in Southern California and most people here like going to the beach, so how does that make me a special snowflake in a woman's mind? The same with dancing. When I go to a dance to meet women, all the other men there like dancing too, so liking dancing doesn't make me stand out, but I would stand out if I was a better dancer than the other guys. I guess that's why I feel like skill is more attractive than lifestyle, because skill is much more rare than passion.. Men who like the beach are common, but men who are good surfers are rare. Lots of other men enjoy the same lifestyle that I do, and the only thing that differentiates between these men is their skill level. But I'm the one who is still single and alone, so maybe I'm wrong.

 

If you're having trouble identifying traits or qualities they'd like, maybe try looking at things they might not like and work on eliminating or downplaying those. Like a tendency to overanalyze everything.

 

Well, maybe. But if I "just be myself" and "do what feels natural" then I'll repeat the same mistakes of the past, over and over. So I have to do something different, to take a step back and figure out what to do. Because if I let myself go and do what feels natural and intuitive, I'll repeat the same mistakes over and over.

Edited July 3, 2016 by Wave Rider

[OneLov]

Dude, it'll happen.

 

I know my advice sounds lame but just keep talking. A beautiful woman is bound to jump in the conversation. I cannot say when or where, but it'll happen. Again, my advice sucks but give it a shot.

[Buddhist]

The fact is that I rarely meet a woman whose personality is very interesting to me.... I find that most women quickly lose interest in such conversations.

 

I loved that I could talk about deep stuff with her, things that other women were not interested in talking about. So whenever I talk to a woman, my experience has been that I need to keep the conversation more superficial, because if I try to say something too deep or intellectual, I lose her attention.

 

and so I find men to be more interesting conversationalists than women.

 

I'm not angered or offended by any of that. But I can see how this might be causing a problem for you. The women you meet can probably sense your lack of interest in them and the way you restrict your conversations. It probably all comes across as a general lack of interest from you in who they are as a person. Men and women are no different in this regard, what's usually highly attractive about someone is their intense interest in you. Give out disinterest and that's probably what you're getting back in return.

 

I see people as being far more similar than they are different. If you ask 100 people what they want in life, I wager that at least 95 of them will give exactly the same answers: good relationships, a satisfying career, financial security, and happiness. When we're talking about mate selection, we usually focus on the differences between people, but I think that the differences between people are much smaller than the similarities. So I struggle with the idea that each individual is profoundly unique.

 

And potential partners probably struggle with your idea that they are no different from anyone else you might come across. Again, it's that disinterest thing you're telegraphing. As an observation. Those five things you listed as similarities represent the fundamental differences between people too. My idea of good relationship isn't the same as yours, nor the same as potentially any other person you meet. Wanting to know about other people in an intimate way, is what makes you as a person interesting to others. Dismissing differences as being unimportant probably comes across as not wanting to build that intimacy. Not saying that's your intention, but it could very well come across that way.

 

If you indicate to a potential partner that really you are no different, or not much different to the next Joe then yeah, she is absolutely going to move on and find someone she feels is special. Even if people aren't significantly different, the one thing everyone without exception wants is to feel as if they are and they extend that the people they date too. This is what your therapist is trying to nail down with you, that you understand what potentially makes you a special someone to another person. Rather than just another Joe in the crowd. You do need to have that connection to make it work.

[GoodOnPaper]

If you're having trouble identifying traits or qualities they'd like, maybe try looking at things they might not like and work on eliminating or downplaying those. Like a tendency to overanalyze everything.

 

Ha! The OP is in a physics PhD program - asking him to not be analytical would be like asking a beauty pageant contestant to not be obsessive about superficial appearance or a professional athlete to not be so intense about fitness issues.

 

It's not so much about how good you are at thing, It's about your company and how you spend your time.

 

For example, I love the beach. But the fact that you're a good surfer means nothing to me. I don't care if someone is a good surfer or not. However if you said that you enjoy getting to the beach frequently, I'd notice you. I'd also like to think you could come and enjoy body surfing with me. And go for a beer afterwards. What I want is lifestyle - not individual skill sets.

 

Ballroom dancing? Telling me you're good at it is ho hum. But telling me that you enjoy it gives me a clue as to what our life may be like together. I realise this sounds like semantics, but truly, think lifestyle - not expertise

 

I have to say, after all the years I've been on LS, something actually clicked when I read this post and a lot of what I experienced in grad school is starting to make sense. For instance . . .

 

This has even been true of the graduate student women I've talked to. If I meet a neuroscience or biology major, I'll ask them a question I've had about neuroscience or biology, and they act like they're really not interested in talking about academic or intellectual topics outside of school, even if they're supposedly passionate about their subject of study.

 

So whenever I talk to a woman, my experience has been that I need to keep the conversation more superficial, because if I try to say something too deep or intellectual, I lose her attention. I know I'm going to anger the feminist lobby by saying this, but that's been my experience. As I said before, it's not that these women aren't smart. I'm saying that they're not interested in talking about these things.

 

I've complained a lot about how when I was in grad school, the women in my program seemed very intent on seeking "opposites-attract" relationships, and from your experience, it looks like that hasn't changed in the last 25 years. But think about it from the lifestyle perspective in basil67's post. Although we all love immersing ourselves in science the way being a PhD student enables us to do, the grad student lifestyle is a grind, and the women you work with already know that - they are living it. Unless you are insanely hot and/or charismatic, there isn't much you can offer that they don't already experience. They want to find out what other lifestyles are out there and very often latch onto a partner with a different one. I'm a professor at a university with about 400 faculty members. I can count on one hand the number of married couples within that group, and in only one case are both partners in the same department.

 

So, what should you do? Definitely focus on the lifestyle you want - not so much the one now, but the one you'd like to have when you start your post-PhD career. There are a lot of professional and personal choices to make - don't underestimate the freedom being single gives you in making those choices. When I was single, if I had had 1/10 of the hobbies and interests, both professional and personal, that I have now, my singlehood experience would have been much better than what it was. Get a jump on shaping your long-term lifestyle now, while you have time and freedom on your side. (Your surfing hobby is awesome - I still don't understand why that doesn't get more traction with the nerdy women you work with . . .)

 

For the vast majority of single men entering science PhD programs, trying to date is like signing up to run a marathon and volunteering to wear 20-pound weights on your wrists and ankles while doing so. It's a long arduous experience. You are moving slower than any other man out there, because you are actually putting your life on hold for 5 or 6 years. But at the end, the weights come off, and you can go run wherever you want as fast as you want. But you know, I'm sure some cute women go out to watch marathons. While you are trudging along, you can still talk and get to know some of them . . . maybe get a sense of some different lifestyles yourself.

 

Oh, one more thing . . . you mentioned this ex-gf:

 

The one woman whose personality I liked the most - my girlfriend before last - acted more like a man in this regard. I loved that I could talk about deep stuff with her, things that other women were not interested in talking about.

 

This is only the time you've said something individually 'special' about a woman. Why didn't it work out?

[Wave Rider]

I've complained a lot about how when I was in grad school, the women in my program seemed very intent on seeking "opposites-attract" relationships, and from your experience, it looks like that hasn't changed in the last 25 years.

 

If this is true, then I should be going after the psychology and education major women, right? Which brings me to this:

 

Unless you are insanely hot and/or charismatic, there isn't much you can offer that they don't already experience.

 

This was part of my original question. Other than the opposite set of genitals, what am I adding to a woman's life that she doesn't already have? If a woman doesn't need a man to protect her, if she can turn to her girlfriends if she wants companionship, if she can go to Tinder if she wants sexual activities, if she can watch YouTube when she wants to hear something entertaining or funny, if she can talk to her professors for intellectual stimulation, then what the hell does she need me for? Especially if she's a peer, a fellow graduate student, in which case I'm adding little to her life that she doesn't already have.

 

At the moment, I can only think of one thing that a male partner can offer a woman that she can't get somewhere else: the status of being in a relationship with a desirable man.

 

So, what should you do? Definitely focus on the lifestyle you want - not so much the one now, but the one you'd like to have when you start your post-PhD career.

 

What are some examples of this? Other than interning at the place I'd like to work after I graduate, I can't think of much else. And as for this,

 

Your surfing hobby is awesome - I still don't understand why that doesn't get more traction with the nerdy women you work with . .

I know, right? Maybe basil67 has some insight with,

 

For example, I love the beach. But the fact that you're a good surfer means nothing to me. I don't care if someone is a good surfer or not. However if you said that you enjoy getting to the beach frequently, I'd notice you. I'd also like to think you could come and enjoy body surfing with me. And go for a beer afterwards. What I want is lifestyle - not individual skill sets.

 

Apparently, my ability to drop down the wave face and do a bottom turn is completely unimpressive to women. basil67 says it's about lifestyle, but I feel inclined to say that what's really more attractive about surfers is the stereotypical surfer personality: adventurous, carefree, self-directed, aggressive, and of course, in great physical condition. I think that's much more of what the romantic fantasy is about, and since I don't really fit that romantic fantasy, the surfing doesn't really attract women very well for me. Of course, I'm going to keep surfing anyway.

 

Oh, one more thing . . . you mentioned this ex-gf:

 

This is only the time you've said something individually 'special' about a woman. Why didn't it work out?

 

See, this was the narcissistic girlfriend. The relationship was a disaster, and I accept my contribution to that disaster by enabling her bad behavior. But I'll tell you what, she was positively fascinating to talk to when she wasn't acting bitchy. I miss those conversations. Well, except for the insults. I haven't yet found a woman who is nearly as interesting to talk to.

Edited July 4, 2016 by Wave Rider

[Wave Rider]

The women you meet can probably sense your lack of interest in them and the way you restrict your conversations. It probably all comes across as a general lack of interest from you in who they are as a person. Men and women are no different in this regard, what's usually highly attractive about someone is their intense interest in you. Give out disinterest and that's probably what you're getting back in return.

 

Well, this is where men's dating advice has been divided. The PUA school teaches that even average-looking women are approached by men on pretty regular basis, and that the more attractive women get constant attention from men, so therefore the best way that a man can show a woman that he's different from the 30 other men who have hit on her that day is to show that he's uninterested in her and that he does't care whether or not she likes him. Or to mix interest with disinterest, known as "push-pull." Other dating gurus like Mark Manson say that it's better to clearly express interest because "a woman's desire is to be desired."

 

I don't know which one is true. I feel like expressing interest is a more honest and authentic way to approach dating, but it does create some problems, like the ones I outlined in this thread I just posted about showing interest in women I see regularly. But whenever I express interest, I always run the risk of coming across as being - gasp, ugh, - "too needy."

 

I'm all for showing interest if I'm interested, but I've been warned against it.

[Aniela]

Well, this is where men's dating advice has been divided. The PUA school teaches that even average-looking women are approached by men on pretty regular basis, and that the more attractive women get constant attention from men, so therefore the best way that a man can show a woman that he's different from the 30 other men who have hit on her that day is to show that he's uninterested in her and that he does't care whether or not she likes him. Or to mix interest with disinterest, known as "push-pull." Other dating gurus like Mark Manson say that it's better to clearly express interest because "a woman's desire is to be desired."

 

I don't know which one is true. I feel like expressing interest is a more honest and authentic way to approach dating, but it does create some problems, like the ones I outlined in this thread I just posted about showing interest in women I see regularly. But whenever I express interest, I always run the risk of coming across as being - gasp, ugh, - "too needy."

 

I'm all for showing interest if I'm interested, but I've been warned against it.

 

Disinterest, and the push-pull, only left me feeling that they really weren't that interested in me, and it messed with my head. I felt pretty good about myself before that. I don't think that acting uninterested in a woman will help. A lot of women will just think, "he doesn't like me" and will move on to someone who does.

 

I hate all the talk of what happens to "average" and "above-average" women, though. It would be nice if personality factored into that, instead of beauty. And, no, us average women don't get hit on all the time. I wouldn't be happy if someone was hitting on me, just because it was easier than the gorgeous girl they really want to date.

[GoodOnPaper]

Well, this is where men's dating advice has been divided. The PUA school teaches that even average-looking women are approached by men on pretty regular basis, and that the more attractive women get constant attention from men, so therefore the best way that a man can show a woman that he's different from the 30 other men who have hit on her that day is to show that he's uninterested in her and that he does't care whether or not she likes him. Or to mix interest with disinterest, known as "push-pull." Other dating gurus like Mark Manson say that it's better to clearly express interest because "a woman's desire is to be desired."

 

I don't know which one is true. I feel like expressing interest is a more honest and authentic way to approach dating, but it does create some problems, like the ones I outlined in this thread I just posted about showing interest in women I see regularly. But whenever I express interest, I always run the risk of coming across as being - gasp, ugh, - "too needy."

 

I'm all for showing interest if I'm interested, but I've been warned against it.

 

Although I was by no means "successful" in dating, my limited experience did show that being seen as too needy or too aloof depended solely on the girl's initial level of interest and resulting attraction imbalances almost before the dating even started.

 

When I was single, I was always the one more interested. Therefore, any affection, any relationship talk was seen as "too needy" - and there wasn't anything that I could do to change their mindsets. With my wife, she was the one more interested, so acting sort of aloof seemed to draw her in like a magnet. I "push-pulled" without even realizing it - she stuck to me like glue and there wasn't anything I could do to change her mindset.

 

So, unfortunately, I think you have to play it by ear and read the signals from each individual woman. Of course, for a lot of science nerds like us, that's the real struggle.

[Wave Rider]

Although I was by no means "successful" in dating, my limited experience did show that being seen as too needy or too aloof depended solely on the girl's initial level of interest and resulting attraction imbalances almost before the dating even started.

 

My operational definition of "neediness" at this point is "asking someone for more than they're willing to give." So whether a woman considers me to be needy depends on how much she's willing to give me in terms of emotional availability, etc. There really isn't any objective way to measure neediness. So yeah, if I show interest and she doesn't reciprocate, or if she does reciprocate but is an emotionally depriving person who doesn't like to give away anything, she may feel that I'm being "too needy."

 

But that's a little off-topic. I still feel like I'm looking for evidence that I have things that women would want, and I'm still not sure what those are.