can of worms

[OhNoYouDidNot]

Hi. I've been lurking in the loveshack shadows for about 2 years now. I'll try and include what i think is relevant but please feel free to ask for missing bits of info if it will help clarify the question.

 

I'm a BS, WH had a 9-month affair a couple of years ago (3 months EA, 6 months PA.) D-day was ugly, of course, but we made a commitment to reconcile and have been plugging away at it since. We've got 5 kids in a blended family - 2 his, 2 mine, 1 ours. We've been together for ~15 years but have known each other since childhood (almost 30 years).

 

I had *kind of* hoped that after the initial healing passed, we would start to rebuild our marriage. You know, find the silver lining and make us one of those "success" stories. The first year we spent "replacing" the negative memories of the previous year with positive ones, which was brilliant. We even renewed our vows in January of this year and went on a honeymoon.

 

So fast forward to today. I've been in IC on and off since the A happened, hubby went to 3 sessions and stopped. We finally went to MC in spring of this year, and the MC said, "You guys are doing GREAT! Keep up the good work!" and sent us home with a sheet of exercises to do.

 

WH has been lovely. He is kind, sweet, attentive, listens when I need to vent. But really, the only difference in what made our relationship sh*tty before an what makes is sh*tty now is that I put out, since feeling "desired and wanted" is what he says was his primary reason for straying. Ironically, neither of us was happy leading up to the A, and I had really hoped we would start dealing with those issues but it seems like I'm the only one unhappy now. I've done tonnes of work to address my personal issues - I accept that I helped create the environment for the affair to happen - and while WH doesn't "blame" me and takes full accountability for the A, he seems to have successfully compartmentalized the A and acts like the entire marriage is fixed now that he's getting sex, not really addressing the reasons he wasn't getting sex in the first place, which was him not understanding that having intimacy isn't just having sex. He has gone back to being my roommate in the last 6 months. A very attentive, accountable, kind, gentle, loving, transparent roommate, but we don't talk about the future, he still doesn't plan any dates, he still doesn't make *me* feel like I'm "wanted" except sexually.

 

A few people here have written about the loss of "innocence" in their marriage after being touched by infidelity and I used to think we had long-term mutual plans but during the A he apparently figured out he hated most of them, and even though he has recanted and said that was for the xOW's benefit, I am full of doubt - does he really want to do those things or is he just saying it because he's afraid I will kick him out again? Is he home because he wants to be or because he feels like he is making it "right" by being here? I miss feeling like we had a shared future. Perhaps I was just dumb - maybe he was just agreeing with me back then?

 

In my last couple of IC sessions, my therapist has been kind of wickedly brutal with me. We played a kind of "what if" game. Based on things I had expressed during previous sessions, she threw a bunch of scenarios at me, kind of like exposure or desensitization therapy or whatever. What if:

 

Your husband did not have an affair.

You had not discovered the affair.

Your husband had picked her instead.

You had not asked him to come home.

Your husband is actually happy with the way things are right now.

Your husband is unhappy but will never tell you because he feels too guilty. (This one hit home pretty hard - he has said he feels like he has no right to ask for anything... which is ridiculous - how the hell are WE supposed to work on our marriage if I have to be a f*cking mind reader?)

You don't actually want him at home.

You left him now and your husband went to be with OW.

 

What she landed on as the last question was, "What if the reason you aren't healing is because you are actually just done with the marriage?"

 

WTF? I mean, WTAF? Frankly, I think it would have been less unpleasant lounging in a kiddie pool full of maggots than answering these questions. Granted, I understand the idea of the exercise was to face my fears, to wade through my insecurities and worst-case scenarios by fully exploring them in a "safe" environment. But holy crackers. I cannot shake this question. "What if you are actually just done?" If you had asked me 3 weeks after d-day or 3 weeks ago, or anytime in between, the answer would have been, I am absolutely not done with my marriage.

 

After a week of stewing about my last counselling session, here's where my head is at.

 

I am tired of living in a perpetual state of doubt, second-guessing whether my husband really wants to be home or if he is here out of obligation and guilt and getting nothing but shrugs and hugs from him when I ask.

I am tired of comparing myself to the ghost of his xOW, who I know next to nothing about other than that she made my husband feel "wanted" and "desired."

I am tired of feeling like I have to be superhuman to prevent him from straying, even though I know that there is nothing I can do to stop him from straying if he's hellbent on finding a way.

I am tired of blaming myself every day for my part in messing up my marriage in the first place. (I have residual Catholic guilt issues - don't judge)

I am tired of feeling like I am the only person trying to fix myself and fix my marriage - like if I can make myself better about it all, forgive and forget, the problems will just dissipate.

I am tired of wondering if both WH and I wouldn't be happier if we weren't tied to the A anymore.

 

I am just plain f*cking tired. I love and respect my husband, I cherish the family and life we had built together, I appreciate his efforts to make me feel like he isn't going to cheat but I no longer trust our future. I honestly think we would be better off ending amicably now than investing another 15 years only to discover than when it's time to retire, he really doesn't share the same vision. *What if* we've just grown apart and the marriage is just done? I feel a bit like we've had a false reconciliation but it's not WH but BS who failed. (And yes, I feel like I have failed - I'm a therapist's dream come true when it comes to head cases.) Maybe, just maybe, I am trying myself up in knots trying to make this marriage work for the sake of not being my second failed marriage. I don't know.

 

So here is my question, for people who are or tried reconciling after an A.

 

For those of you who have stayed, did you ever struggle with whether you could handle R? What do you still struggle with now? For those who tried but eventually left, how did you know you were just finally done trying? For those of you in long term R, did you ever reach the edge of divorce but manage to pull it back? What did it take?

 

My IC better have a "part 2" for me to get some closure next week because let me tell you, she sure opened a can of worms.

[NTV]

Lady, I don't really have much of an answer for you, but I can say as a BS, I am pretty much exactly where you are. So if not being the only person dealing with this part of the poop-parade is helpful, by all means lets get in a circle and sing some hippy music.

 

 

I do know that a couple of the fears you mentioned I was able to deal with logistically...

 

 

the preventing your spouse from straying piece.... I worked with WW to get a postnup in place. It eased my mind a whole bunch on what would happen if she cheated again. Then again, I was also facing the possibility of paying alimony to someone as thanks for cheating on me... a whole 'nother host of ****ty feelings with that one. Does it mean that she won't cheat again? hell no. It just means I don't have to feel like Sherlock holmes all the dang time because I know that if she does and I find out, then I will drop a metaphorical legal hammer on her feet.

 

 

Oh and the blaming myself for my part in the pre-marital issues? Oh hell, I've got a double scoop of that icecream. I bought into the whole 'happy wife happy life' propaganda hook line and sinker, only to be rewarded with her affair. Years dedicated to trying to 'make sure she was happy', that ultimately meant nothing to her. Gotta pat myself on the back for that one, way to play the fool there NTV!

 

 

So.... to play your IC's game with you here's, what I got:

 

 

What if:

 

Your wife did not have an affair. - I'd probably still be playing happy wife happy life.

 

You had not discovered the affair. - I'd probably have aids.

 

Your wife had picked him instead. - might be better off

 

You had not asked her to come home. - child care would be a b*tch

 

Your wife is actually happy with the way things are right now. - Err.... shoot.

 

Your wife is unhappy but will never tell you because she feels too guilty. - her happiness is no longer my responsibility. Hell, it never should have been, but again, see propaganda above.

 

You don't actually want her at home. - I flip flop on this all the time.

 

You left her now and your wife went to be with OM. - Good Riddance! (though I would tell OBS if that happened, just in case)

 

 

I guess for me, the actually happy thing is the hardest. Thanks to your IC for this exercise! I hope it helps me as much as it helps you.... and you know... FYI... now I'll be looking for info from the follow up meeting. lol.

 

 

Thanks for posting!

[cozycottagelg]

Lady, I don't really have much of an answer for you, but I can say as a BS, I am pretty much exactly where you are. So if not being the only person dealing with this part of the poop-parade is helpful, by all means lets get in a circle and sing some hippy music.

 

 

I do know that a couple of the fears you mentioned I was able to deal with logistically...

 

 

the preventing your spouse from straying piece.... I worked with WW to get a postnup in place. It eased my mind a whole bunch on what would happen if she cheated again. Then again, I was also facing the possibility of paying alimony to someone as thanks for cheating on me... a whole 'nother host of ****ty feelings with that one. Does it mean that she won't cheat again? hell no. It just means I don't have to feel like Sherlock holmes all the dang time because I know that if she does and I find out, then I will drop a metaphorical legal hammer on her feet.

 

 

Oh and the blaming myself for my part in the pre-marital issues? Oh hell, I've got a double scoop of that icecream. I bought into the whole 'happy wife happy life' propaganda hook line and sinker, only to be rewarded with her affair. Years dedicated to trying to 'make sure she was happy', that ultimately meant nothing to her. Gotta pat myself on the back for that one, way to play the fool there NTV!

 

 

So.... to play your IC's game with you here's, what I got:

 

 

What if:

 

Your wife did not have an affair. - I'd probably still be playing happy wife happy life.

 

You had not discovered the affair. - I'd probably have aids.

 

Your wife had picked him instead. - might be better off

 

You had not asked her to come home. - child care would be a b*tch

 

Your wife is actually happy with the way things are right now. - Err.... shoot.

 

Your wife is unhappy but will never tell you because she feels too guilty. - her happiness is no longer my responsibility. Hell, it never should have been, but again, see propaganda above.

 

You don't actually want her at home. - I flip flop on this all the time.

 

You left her now and your wife went to be with OM. - Good Riddance! (though I would tell OBS if that happened, just in case)

 

 

I guess for me, the actually happy thing is the hardest. Thanks to your IC for this exercise! I hope it helps me as much as it helps you.... and you know... FYI... now I'll be looking for info from the follow up meeting. lol.

 

 

Thanks for posting!

 

Does the OBS not know about the affair?

[bummer]

It sounds like your gut and intuition may have finally poked their heads out from behind the Catholic guilt mindset. I hope exploring alternative possibilities is helpful.

[NTV]

Does the OBS not know about the affair?

 

 

 

Oh yeah, both OBS's know about the past ones. Neither were easy to access but I was in full blown Sherlock holmes at the time, and if I hadn't reached them I'd likely have ended up with a care package of text message printouts in my hands on their doorsteps.

 

 

I meant if she went back to either one, I'd let the OBS's know (again).

[OhNoYouDidNot]

I guess for me, the actually happy thing is the hardest. Thanks to your IC for this exercise! I hope it helps me as much as it helps you.... and you know... FYI... now I'll be looking for info from the follow up meeting. lol.

 

Right? Seriously, when I ask him if he is happy and he just smiles and hugs me like everything is perfect again, I feel like wringing his scrawny little neck.

 

I tried googling "what if" exercises hoping to find some kind of psychology paper and the best result it brought back was grammar lessons on conditional sentences. Ugh. My next appt is on the 11th. I don't know how I'm going to make it another week. I'm afraid (and I mean I am ACTUALLY afraid) that I am going to ask my husband for a divorce by then, that's how "done" I feel right now. And it breaks my heart.

[Fleek]

This post got me out of lurkerdom.

 

The "what if" game is valid only if making decisions about the future. Like changing inputs on a spreadsheet and observing what happens to the outputs. That's a valid and worthwhile pursuit.

 

What if on things that have actually happened is a waste of time.

 

So to your questions:

For those of you who have stayed, did you ever struggle with whether you could handle R? What do you still struggle with now? For those who tried but eventually left, how did you know you were just finally done trying? For those of you in long term R, did you ever reach the edge of divorce but manage to pull it back? What did it take?

 

I've been in R for about 18 years. I'm a mid forties BH married 24 years and the nest (3 kids) is almost empty. I understand all too well what you mean about the exhaustion from the whole mess. I shudder every time I stop to ponder how much time, money, and mental energy I've (we've) poured into her little 5-6mo A. I have been on the brink of divorce every since d day. The fallout from her A was horrific. I stayed for my own reasons and fear definitely was a factor. We have changed individually and as a couple since the A. Our marriage would be great if only. I have never completely gained back trust or respect for her. We do relate better now. We communicate better now. Sex is physically great but lacking somewhat emotionally for me. Are the changes worth the cost? I don't think so after all these years.

 

The what if I ask myself now is: what if this is as good as it gets? I have a hard time being vulnerable with her. Yes, I've watched the Brene TED talk. I guard my thoughts and feelings from her because I know there's only so much she can do. The worst thing that cheating robs from the marriage is peace. The knowledge that things that should just "be" are forever gone or no longer taken for granted. She will no longer get the benefit of the doubt from me. I also know, regardless of the work she's done, that her morals and ethics are fluid and bendable depending upon her desires and whims. I know she has changed, but what if...

 

I do think I would be better off leaving and starting something new. Even if I end up alone, I won't be dealing with the fallout from this mess anymore.

[Mrs. John Adams]

So do you feel that your husband has given you everything you need to heal? Has he been transparent? Has he given you all passwords to everything? Has he shown you true remorse? Does he make sure you feel safe?

 

Have you taken back your power and made demands of him? or are you coasting along hoping that he will eventually "see the light" and give you the things you need?

 

Have you both read the book how to help your spouse heal from your affair by Linda MacDonald? Have you discussed the ideas in the book if you have?

[Mrs. John Adams]

This post got me out of lurkerdom.

 

The "what if" game is valid only if making decisions about the future. Like changing inputs on a spreadsheet and observing what happens to the outputs. That's a valid and worthwhile pursuit.

 

What if on things that have actually happened is a waste of time.

 

So to your questions:

 

 

I've been in R for about 18 years. I'm a mid forties BH married 24 years and the nest (3 kids) is almost empty. I understand all too well what you mean about the exhaustion from the whole mess. I shudder every time I stop to ponder how much time, money, and mental energy I've (we've) poured into her little 5-6mo A. I have been on the brink of divorce every since d day. The fallout from her A was horrific. I stayed for my own reasons and fear definitely was a factor. We have changed individually and as a couple since the A. Our marriage would be great if only. I have never completely gained back trust or respect for her. We do relate better now. We communicate better now. Sex is physically great but lacking somewhat emotionally for me. Are the changes worth the cost? I don't think so after all these years.

 

The what if I ask myself now is: what if this is as good as it gets? I have a hard time being vulnerable with her. Yes, I've watched the Brene TED talk. I guard my thoughts and feelings from her because I know there's only so much she can do. The worst thing that cheating robs from the marriage is peace. The knowledge that things that should just "be" are forever gone or no longer taken for granted. She will no longer get the benefit of the doubt from me. I also know, regardless of the work she's done, that her morals and ethics are fluid and bendable depending upon her desires and whims. I know she has changed, but what if...

 

I do think I would be better off leaving and starting something new. Even if I end up alone, I won't be dealing with the fallout from this mess anymore.

 

Leaving and running away...does not mean you no longer have to deal with the fallout from the mess. Even those who divorce still have to deal with the aftermath of infidelity...they still have to heal.

And if you enter into a new relationship...you will still have the doubts brought about by the affair.

[Lobe]

Leaving and running away...does not mean you no longer have to deal with the fallout from the mess. Even those who divorce still have to deal with the aftermath of infidelity...they still have to heal.

And if you enter into a new relationship...you will still have the doubts brought about by the affair.

 

I'm about 18 mos out from R and my WH has often said, "It'd just be easier for everyone if I left." Running is a coward's way out is what I told him.

 

Why did WH stop IC? And we went through 4 MCs before we found one who we thought we worked well with. He even brings us curry! You definitely need a different MC...

 

To answer your question, OhNo, what if you really are just done with the M? This is your second time considering divorce - how did you know it was over the first time?

 

There are no easy answers. I figure if I leave (or make hubby leave, or he leaves of his own free will) there will absolutely still be the aftermath of the affair embedded in my psyche forever. I will forever have trust issues. I would struggle immensely accepting his OW as a member of our family, if WH went back to her. I guess in some ways for me, reconciliation is choosing the lesser of two evils. Or perhaps more accurately, the evil I know over the evil I don't know.

[NTV]

Leaving and running away...does not mean you no longer have to deal with the fallout from the mess. Even those who divorce still have to deal with the aftermath of infidelity...they still have to heal.

And if you enter into a new relationship...you will still have the doubts brought about by the affair.

 

 

 

I don't know. This begs the question, if my choices are (a) stay married and feeling like I'm constantly banging my head into a wall or (b) get divorced, meet someone else and deal with different set of insecurities... then why not © say f* it and go have my own affair?

[Mrs. John Adams]

I don't know. This begs the question, if my choices are (a) stay married and feeling like I'm constantly banging my head into a wall or (b) get divorced, meet someone else and deal with different set of insecurities... then why not © say f* it and go have my own affair?

 

Because then you would also have to deal with the aftermath of that affair.

 

Look...there is no easy answer...it just sucks.

 

It is almost like the present presidential election...all choices are horrible....but you choose the right one you think is best for you and your family...and you do the best you can do.

 

Sometimes....even after many many years....the pieces fall into place...and you know you made the right choice in putting the pieces back together.

 

Life is not always perfect....and it is not always fair....but we do the best we can with the hand we have been dealt.

 

When you look at your relationship...and you concentrate on all the negative..it can become overwhelming. Look at the things that are RIGHT...look at the progress you have made....look at where you are today instead of where you were. Praise your spouse for the things they have done right...and share the things you still wish could improve.

 

I can never give my husband back the innocence I took away from our marriage...but if i concentrate on that...i get overwhelmed and depressed...because it is gone...forever. But I can give him my devotion and my love....I can be the best wife I know how to be...I can concentrate on the things i have done to make him feel safe and to feel that he is worth all the effort I have put in to heal our relationship.

 

Infidelity robs us of things we can never have again....but there are still many wonderful things we can have...and I think they are worth working toward...

 

Others...don't....and they proceed with the plan that is best for them.

 

But I can tell you this...a revenge affair...is NEVER the right answer.....NEVER

[Just a Guy]

Hello Folks, I think some people here are missing the point made by OhNo and fleek. The fact is that both of them are saying that they have been in a false reconciliation because the fundamental issue in their marriages have not been resolved. In the OP case the series of questions posed by her therapist, especially the last one, has literally opened a can of worms for her. All the vague doubts she had about her marriage and the state of her reconciliation have been crystallized by these questions, especially the last one. In the case of fleek, his faith and belief in his wife has been shattered once and for all. This loss of faith has been reinforced by his wife's tendency to lose consistency of attitude and behaviour fependind on the circumstances in which she finds herself. It is something like trying yo build one's house in the shifting sands.

This being the case it appears to me that there has been no true remorse on the part of either of the two WS here. Fleek has probably stuck around for too long and may not want to change his status quo although that is not a given. However, in the OP:s case I think she has already resolved in her mind that she is going to divorce her husband since her husband's seeming change of heart is a charade she has seen through. I guess one can only wish both these good folk all the very best and God speed!

[Mrs. John Adams]

Hello Folks, I think some people here are missing the point made by OhNo and fleek. The fact is that both of them are saying that they have been in a false reconciliation because the fundamental issue in their marriages have not been resolved. In the OP case the series of questions posed by her therapist, especially the last one, has literally opened a can of worms for her. All the vague doubts she had about her marriage and the state of her reconciliation have been crystallized by these questions, especially the last one. In the case of fleek, his faith and belief in his wife has been shattered once and for all. This loss of faith has been reinforced by his wife's tendency to lose consistency of attitude and behaviour fependind on the circumstances in which she finds herself. It is something like trying yo build one's house in the shifting sands.

This being the case it appears to me that there has been no true remorse on the part of either of the two WS here. Fleek has probably stuck around for too long and may not want to change his status quo although that is not a given. However, in the OP:s case I think she has already resolved in her mind that she is going to divorce her husband since her husband's seeming change of heart is a charade she has seen through. I guess one can only wish both these good folk all the very best and God speed!

 

First of all....they are in "reconciliation"...not false reconciliation....and reconciliation takes a lifetime. It is a process...forever.

 

Remorse is also a process...that can take many many years to achieve. Which is why i asked the questions I did.

 

It could very well be that their spouses have not achieved true remorse...and some waywards never do achieve the understanding of true remorse.

 

It is then up to the betrayed whether or not they can continue to live with the situation the way it is...or of they have had enough and call it quits.

 

Only they have that answer......and none of us can tell them what approach is the right one for them.

 

My husband held out hope for me...he gave me the opportunity to continue to grow in my knowledge of remorse. He could have given up....but he was willing to settle..."with hope". I was finally able to give him what he was looking for.

[wmacbride]

I can only speak for myself, but the immediate aftermath of the A was, at times, easier than things were later on.

 

 

Again, just for me, the immediate aftermath was full of angst fear and worse, and it took nearly all of my mental energy to deal with that. I didn't have much left over for "what ifs"

 

It was only after things had calmed down that I had the time and energy for that sort of thinking.

 

When that happened, I was suddenly incredibly angry. Angry at him, angry at myself, angry at the ow, angry at the situation. I don;t like being angry, so I stuffed that down and felt worse and worse.

 

Our counselor asked me if I had been angry, and as she put it, some people have to give themselves permission to do so. It's actually healthy, so long as the anger is productive and one doesn't just sit around stewing over things they have no control over.

 

Have you given yourself permission to be angry? I'm not talking about the reactionary ( for lack of a better word) anger that you might have had right after the A , but the more thought out and "logical" anger that can develop after time has passed?

 

These feelings can really fester and poison you if you don't deal with them.

[oldshirt]

 

 

 

 

A few people here have written about the loss of "innocence" in their marriage after being touched by infidelity and I used to think we had long-term mutual plans but during the A he apparently figured out he hated most of them, and even though he has recanted and said that was for the xOW's benefit, I am full of doubt - does he really want to do those things or is he just saying it because he's afraid I will kick him out again?

 

Could you expand on this a little further. The Force is telling me that this is a major part of your dilemma and doubt, but you haven't given any nuts and bolts evidence that your husband actually thinks or feels the way you are saying he does.

 

Other than having sex with another woman (keeping in mind men have A's for many different reasons than women) why do you say he didn't like your long-term plans?

[Lobe]

I don't know. This begs the question, if my choices are (a) stay married and feeling like I'm constantly banging my head into a wall or (b) get divorced, meet someone else and deal with different set of insecurities... then why not © say f* it and go have my own affair?

 

No no no no no...

[oldshirt]

And this is just a side bar experience of mine and doesn't really have anything to do with your case, but the time I got gobsmacked and was speechless in MC was when my wife asked me in front of the counselor where I saw us in 5 years.

 

I just sat there with a clueless look on my face and then finally managed to mumble out a bunch of BS about how I hoped that we could work things out and be ok.

 

I know I didn't fool anyone but I turned and twisted the question into me talking about what my hopes for reconciliation were and didn't have anything to do with how I actually saw us in 5 years.

 

Luckily neither one of them called me out and held my feet to the fire to make me directly address the question.

 

I'm sure they both saw through me and knew that my future vision of how I saw us in 5 years was not good.

 

That was my can of worms and the question that through me for a loop.

 

However I will say that that was 4 years ago and we are still here (knock on wood)

 

 

(as a disclaimer, we were not in MC due to infidelity. We had a number of other issues but it wasn't infidelity)

[oldshirt]

Now to get back to your situation.

 

I want to throw in another "what if?"

 

What if: What if you just dumped all of that baggage off of your shoulders and just released yourself from all that pressure and just lived in the moment???

 

What if you just said, f(k it and just woke up one morning and didn't worry about anything that wasn't bleeding and wasn't on fire in front of you that day.

 

What if you didn't try to be 'perfect' and just tried to be marginally adequate?

 

What if you told yourself it was your husband's responsibility to come home if he wanted to, rub your feet if he wanted to, or packed up left if he wanted to?

 

What if you just said, "not my problem" and just lived in the moment regardless if he comes home at the end of the day or not?

 

OK that was a bunch of 'what ifs' but they are all rolled up into one. The general question is what if you just lived in the moment and didn't burn up headspace wondering about the future?

 

I'm not talking about neglecting bills or not changing the oil in the car or not contributing to your retirement plan or the kid's college fun etc. I'm not talking about being irresponsible or neglectful of the pertinent things in life.

 

I'm just saying, what if you just let this go and let the cards fall however they may??

 

Can you simply be yourself and do what you want to do and live your life how you want to live and give yourself the freedom to let him do the same?

 

Then if he comes home - there he is. His choice. If you want to enjoy his company- there it is.

 

If he doesn't come home - then you're free to go do whatever you want. what he does as a grown man is not your problem anymore.

 

What would happen if you just released all your fear and uncertainty and just lived????

[oldshirt]

I get the feeling you are a bit of a perfectionist and a worrier and one of your worries is that if you aren't perfect enough and don't do everything just right, the world will cave in and it will be all your fault.

 

My wife is much the same way and I can see some of her in you.

 

We have seen a couple MCs over the years. My wife has some OCDs and is a cleaner and also feels she is responsible for the safety and survival of the world and thinks if everything isn't perfect innocent puppies and kittens will be harmed because of it.

 

One of the exercises one of our MCs assigned her to do was to get up and go to work one day without making the bed. She told my wife she could not make the bed AT ALL one day and then come home and see what disasters had unfolded because she did not make the bed.

 

My wife couldn't do it and refused to do it. I took it upon myself to show her how rugged the world is and I disabled the vacuum cleaner so she'd see what would happened to the world if she didn't vacuum one day (yes, ONE day).

 

I think you are somewhat similar with your relationship. I'm getting the impression you are worried that you aren't good enough, worried that he isn't sincere, worried that his future plans and your future plans aren't 100% congruent, worried that you may put in all this effort to save this marriage only to have it crumble anyway 20 years down the road.

 

What would happen if you just stopped worrying about all of that, release yourself from that responsibility and just let him make his own choices and do what he wants and you make your own choices and do what you want.....and if he is still there at the end of the day, that's his choice. If youre still there at the end of the day its your choice.

 

If you are both still there by choice, isn't that what a marriage and relationship is??

[understand50]

Hi.

For those of you who have stayed, did you ever struggle with whether you could handle R? What do you still struggle with now? For those who tried but eventually left, how did you know you were just finally done trying? For those of you in long term R, did you ever reach the edge of divorce but manage to pull it back? What did it take?

 

OhNoYouDidNot,

 

did you ever struggle with whether you could handle R ?

 

Short answer, yes in the beginning. Later, as time went on, not so much. Even now I have my doubts, but I am sure everyone has doubts about their marriage and loved one from time to time. In your case, you really have not have had a lot of time. I have had over 40-plus years, living with this. It does get better, but you will never forget it. In some ways you need to step back a take a hard look, and really see where your spouse is, and if they can "grow", or is this the best they are. After all the hurt and pain, are you willing to give up now? Sometimes we need to stick, during the hard times to be rewarded later.

 

What do you still struggle with now?

 

Her being truthful, her keeping secrets. She will always tend to keep bad thing from me, spending, health so fourth. We talk once a month and a lot of these talks are around her trying to hide things. Her big thing was over spending. At this time, we are in a good place, but I do not think she will ever understand, why I need full truth and honesty from her.

 

For those of you in long term R, did you ever reach the edge of divorce but manage to pull it back?

 

Yes, why I am here on LS, was for her overspending, almost to having us losing our house and us being placed in bankruptcy. The past cheating, came back as just another reason for me to leave. After much soul searching, I decided, I loved her enough to forgive her this trespass. I then asked her, if she really wanted to stay together, as her actions were of someone going out of their way to destroy their marriage and relationship. I laid out what needed to change, and asked what she needed. We have been working on that and other things ever sense. We are doing much better, but we will always shave things to work on.

 

What did it take?

 

What it took was for me to force her to talk and confront our issues. We set aside time to talk and we made sure all things could be talked about and discussed. We had to trust each other, that the both of us would listen, and not get angry. Both of us had to reveal ourselves to each other.

 

I wish you luck......

[oldshirt]

One last thing and then I'll stop.

 

I used this analogy a couple days ago in another thread but I think it can apply here as well.

 

There is a difference between an imminent and immediate threat, an innate risk and an irrational fear.

 

An example of an imminent and immediate threat is when you are walking down a trail in the woods and suddenly there is a rattlesnake coiled up and ready to strike right in front of you. That is an imminent and immediate threat that threatens your safety and well being. you must take an immediate action to avoid being harmed.

 

Let's say you got around the snake and it is no longer an immediate threat.

 

But now you know that there are rattlesnakes in the woods and that you have to be cautious and responsible and not reach into any holes or dig under any rocks or hollow logs etc. That is because venomous snakes are an innate risk in the woods.

 

But now lets say that since your encounter with the snake, you fear going in the woods at all and you are afraid that one misstep or one moment of inattention and snakes will be dropping out of trees onto your head and coming up out of all their lairs to come and get you.

 

That is actually an irrational fear. Snakes don't really do that and most people go through their whole lives and never actually encounter a venomous snake no matter how much time they spend in the outdoors.

 

Infidelity does the same thing to us. It can pop up out of seemingly no where and pose an immediate risk to our well being and it can harm us.

 

We can take corrective action and save ourselves, but now we can never live with the innocence of thinking there are no snakes in the woods. We know we have to keep our eyes open and be responsible.

 

But it's also easy to develop an irrational fear that they are always lurking and stalking us and poised to attack us at any moment and that if we make one wrong move we will be completely vulnerable and will not be able to defend ourselves and save ourselves the next time.

 

That is an irrational fear.

 

But one of the decisions that a BH has to make is whether they can go back into the woods again knowing that there are snakes in there and knowing that no matter how careful and prudent they are, they can never be completely assured they won't get bit by one.

 

We can all point fingers and tell the BH that yes they should or no they shouldn't go back in the woods, but the BH has to decide if the benefit of going in the woods is enough to make assume the risk, or if their anxiety is just to great and it's not worth it.

 

And sometimes people aren't necessarily that afraid of the snakes, they just don't have it in them to be keeping an eye out and watching for snakes all the time, even if they aren't really afraid of them. Some of them just don't want to be in the woods any more. for them, the snake ruined the woods experience and it holds no interest for them any more even if the snake poses no direct threat to them anymore.

 

I think that is kind of where you are right now.

 

Using this snake analogy, my question is are you able to pack a snakebite kit into your pocket to be prudent and responsible because you know that there are snakes out there. But release all your fears and anxieties and not burn up headspace wondering about snakes and just go for a hike in the woods and enjoy the sounds and smells and beauty of the woods in the moment and not worry about what's going to happen with the owls and raccoons and snakes and chipmunks and poison ivy in the future?

[ladydesigner]

This post got me out of lurkerdom.

 

The "what if" game is valid only if making decisions about the future. Like changing inputs on a spreadsheet and observing what happens to the outputs. That's a valid and worthwhile pursuit.

 

What if on things that have actually happened is a waste of time.

 

So to your questions:

 

 

I've been in R for about 18 years. I'm a mid forties BH married 24 years and the nest (3 kids) is almost empty. I understand all too well what you mean about the exhaustion from the whole mess. I shudder every time I stop to ponder how much time, money, and mental energy I've (we've) poured into her little 5-6mo A. I have been on the brink of divorce every since d day. The fallout from her A was horrific. I stayed for my own reasons and fear definitely was a factor. We have changed individually and as a couple since the A. Our marriage would be great if only. I have never completely gained back trust or respect for her. We do relate better now. We communicate better now. Sex is physically great but lacking somewhat emotionally for me. Are the changes worth the cost? I don't think so after all these years.

 

The what if I ask myself now is: what if this is as good as it gets? I have a hard time being vulnerable with her. Yes, I've watched the Brene TED talk. I guard my thoughts and feelings from her because I know there's only so much she can do. The worst thing that cheating robs from the marriage is peace. The knowledge that things that should just "be" are forever gone or no longer taken for granted. She will no longer get the benefit of the doubt from me. I also know, regardless of the work she's done, that her morals and ethics are fluid and bendable depending upon her desires and whims. I know she has changed, but what if...

 

I do think I would be better off leaving and starting something new. Even if I end up alone, I won't be dealing with the fallout from this mess anymore.

 

Great post! Thank you it makes me feel better when I am not alone in the way I feel. When you said 'peace' was missing. That really drove it home for me. I have not had peace of mind since discovery.

[AlwaysGrowing]

Hi. I've been lurking in the loveshack shadows for about 2 years now. I'll try and include what i think is relevant but please feel free to ask for missing bits of info if it will help clarify the question.

 

I'm a BS, WH had a 9-month affair a couple of years ago (3 months EA, 6 months PA.) D-day was ugly, of course, but we made a commitment to reconcile and have been plugging away at it since. We've got 5 kids in a blended family - 2 his, 2 mine, 1 ours. We've been together for ~15 years but have known each other since childhood (almost 30 years).

 

I had *kind of* hoped that after the initial healing passed, we would start to rebuild our marriage. You know, find the silver lining and make us one of those "success" stories. The first year we spent "replacing" the negative memories of the previous year with positive ones, which was brilliant. We even renewed our vows in January of this year and went on a honeymoon.

 

So fast forward to today. I've been in IC on and off since the A happened, hubby went to 3 sessions and stopped. We finally went to MC in spring of this year, and the MC said, "You guys are doing GREAT! Keep up the good work!" and sent us home with a sheet of exercises to do.

 

WH has been lovely. He is kind, sweet, attentive, listens when I need to vent. But really, the only difference in what made our relationship sh*tty before an what makes is sh*tty now is that I put out, since feeling "desired and wanted" is what he says was his primary reason for straying. Ironically, neither of us was happy leading up to the A, and I had really hoped we would start dealing with those issues but it seems like I'm the only one unhappy now. I've done tonnes of work to address my personal issues - I accept that I helped create the environment for the affair to happen - and while WH doesn't "blame" me and takes full accountability for the A, he seems to have successfully compartmentalized the A and acts like the entire marriage is fixed now that he's getting sex, not really addressing the reasons he wasn't getting sex in the first place, which was him not understanding that having intimacy isn't just having sex. He has gone back to being my roommate in the last 6 months. A very attentive, accountable, kind, gentle, loving, transparent roommate, but we don't talk about the future, he still doesn't plan any dates, he still doesn't make *me* feel like I'm "wanted" except sexually.

 

A few people here have written about the loss of "innocence" in their marriage after being touched by infidelity and I used to think we had long-term mutual plans but during the A he apparently figured out he hated most of them, and even though he has recanted and said that was for the xOW's benefit, I am full of doubt - does he really want to do those things or is he just saying it because he's afraid I will kick him out again? Is he home because he wants to be or because he feels like he is making it "right" by being here? I miss feeling like we had a shared future. Perhaps I was just dumb - maybe he was just agreeing with me back then?

 

In my last couple of IC sessions, my therapist has been kind of wickedly brutal with me. We played a kind of "what if" game. Based on things I had expressed during previous sessions, she threw a bunch of scenarios at me, kind of like exposure or desensitization therapy or whatever. What if:

 

Your husband did not have an affair.

You had not discovered the affair.

Your husband had picked her instead.

You had not asked him to come home.

Your husband is actually happy with the way things are right now.

Your husband is unhappy but will never tell you because he feels too guilty. (This one hit home pretty hard - he has said he feels like he has no right to ask for anything... which is ridiculous - how the hell are WE supposed to work on our marriage if I have to be a f*cking mind reader?)

You don't actually want him at home.

You left him now and your husband went to be with OW.

 

What she landed on as the last question was, "What if the reason you aren't healing is because you are actually just done with the marriage?"

 

WTF? I mean, WTAF? Frankly, I think it would have been less unpleasant lounging in a kiddie pool full of maggots than answering these questions. Granted, I understand the idea of the exercise was to face my fears, to wade through my insecurities and worst-case scenarios by fully exploring them in a "safe" environment. But holy crackers. I cannot shake this question. "What if you are actually just done?" If you had asked me 3 weeks after d-day or 3 weeks ago, or anytime in between, the answer would have been, I am absolutely not done with my marriage.

 

After a week of stewing about my last counselling session, here's where my head is at.

 

I am tired of living in a perpetual state of doubt, second-guessing whether my husband really wants to be home or if he is here out of obligation and guilt and getting nothing but shrugs and hugs from him when I ask.

I am tired of comparing myself to the ghost of his xOW, who I know next to nothing about other than that she made my husband feel "wanted" and "desired."

I am tired of feeling like I have to be superhuman to prevent him from straying, even though I know that there is nothing I can do to stop him from straying if he's hellbent on finding a way.

I am tired of blaming myself every day for my part in messing up my marriage in the first place. (I have residual Catholic guilt issues - don't judge)

I am tired of feeling like I am the only person trying to fix myself and fix my marriage - like if I can make myself better about it all, forgive and forget, the problems will just dissipate.

I am tired of wondering if both WH and I wouldn't be happier if we weren't tied to the A anymore.

 

I am just plain f*cking tired. I love and respect my husband, I cherish the family and life we had built together, I appreciate his efforts to make me feel like he isn't going to cheat but I no longer trust our future. I honestly think we would be better off ending amicably now than investing another 15 years only to discover than when it's time to retire, he really doesn't share the same vision. *What if* we've just grown apart and the marriage is just done? I feel a bit like we've had a false reconciliation but it's not WH but BS who failed. (And yes, I feel like I have failed - I'm a therapist's dream come true when it comes to head cases.) Maybe, just maybe, I am trying myself up in knots trying to make this marriage work for the sake of not being my second failed marriage. I don't know.

 

So here is my question, for people who are or tried reconciling after an A.

 

For those of you who have stayed, did you ever struggle with whether you could handle R? What do you still struggle with now? For those who tried but eventually left, how did you know you were just finally done trying? For those of you in long term R, did you ever reach the edge of divorce but manage to pull it back? What did it take?

 

My IC better have a "part 2" for me to get some closure next week because let me tell you, she sure opened a can of worms.

 

There are FWS who adamantly claim that lack of sex was the reason why their affair happened, who then claim to take ownership of the affair and have clearly stated that if their BS was not willing to look at all their own flaws/faults then they would have divorced their BS. Oh, and who claim their BS is happy that the FWS did not just divorce them and had an affair instead.

 

Personally, I do not believe this approach to R is sustainable. After the crisis has settled, most BS in that type of scenario (much like your own) ends up going WTF did I just agree to?

 

There are WS who feel that their issues over their excuse to cheat are the only issues in the marriage. Or falsely believe that their BS was so darn happy 100% of the time because their BS didn't cheat. They staunchly believe that only the unhappy one cheated...which is them....so the BS has to put the happy back in the marriage...whatever that means to them.

 

It is very common for a BS to get tired...like done tired...of being the one tasked, held accountable to be a better partner, processing, working through the self-esteem/worth issues that an affair brings with it. Add to that a WS who is just hunky dory and doesn't want to discuss anything...then it becomes done done.

 

Most BS get to a place where...if they are expected to eat the s$&@ sandwich called my spouses affair....and all the sides that come with it. They expect their WS to at least sit at the table with them and order one hell of a bottle of wine.

[Mr. Lucky]

Ironically, neither of us was happy leading up to the A, and I had really hoped we would start dealing with those issues but it seems like I'm the only one unhappy now.

 

I'm intrigued by the often expressed theory that an A and subsequent R are going to fix the problems in a marriage. Somehow, a bad marriage will become good, a good marriage great.

 

Since D-Day and the aftermath are usually about personal issues and collateral damage well-documented in this forum, I'm not sure how this is supposed to work. It seems a successful R means better dealing with the problems as opposed to having the issues go away. People get better but I'm not sure how often the relationships do.

 

OhNoYouDidNot, several years age you lacked the connection and communication in your marriage necessary for a rewarding sexual relationship. The same dynamic exists today. That the timeline between those dates included his affair doesn't seem especially relevant since you've come to terms with his infidelity. In short, I'd make any decisions based on today and looking forward rather than the weight of past events.

 

Interesting topic, keep posting and let us know how you're doing...

 

Mr. Lucky