Stuck in Limbo

[anna121]

You are right - she probably will not respond to your words. She may respond to action.

 

It is up to you to stop engaging her. Maybe resolve to put her emails in a folder before you read them. Don't respond to nagging messages. Is there anyone you would trust to read her emails and filter them? I'd certainly be willing to do that for a family member or friend going through what you are.

[The_Onceler]

Have you spoken to an attorney about the child support you're paying? In my state, any payments that do not go through the child support offices are considered gifts unless there is a receipt signed by the Payee acknowledging the money was for child support or the payment is made by check or money order with "for child support" written in the notation area.

 

In other words, a man can pay child support for YEARS and if his ex takes him to court, he would be considered to have never paid a dime and be immediately in arrears.

 

Were I you, I'd get a court order for child support and custody. Make sure it includes the details such as who pays for what, etc. If you decide to do more than required, that's great. But your azz will be covered just in case.

 

Also, in my state, it is common for parents to include something like "no unrelated members of the opposite sex can stay the night in the home while the children are in residence" if that is a concern for you.

 

And, again, in my state, it's also fairly common for custody agreements to include first refusal. This means that if Parent A has the kids and needs a sitter, Parent B gets asked first. If Parent B cannot or does not want to take the kids, Parent A can arrange a sitter. Might want to look into that, too.

 

No, I have not yet retained an attorney, beyond an intial consult a while back. However, after recent "conversations" with the ex, I am now planning to hire an attorney.

 

As much as I complain about the "other man", I have no specific issues with him (well, aside from the obvious). That is to say, I don't fear that he will harm my daughters. And as much as my ex may be crazy, I think her brand of insanity is limited to her need to convince herself that her life is some sort of Harlequin romance style existence. I think she is still a basically good mother to our girls. Even so, I will make a point to speak with my attorney regarding the notion of first refusal. Thanks for mentioning it.

[testmeasure]

Do you have a "Parenting Plan"?

 

You have talked about a custody agreement and a custody schedule. Is this a verbal agreement? Something you both signed? Is it filed with the court?

 

A good parenting plan should resolve half the stuff you're struggling with. The two of you realizing you have separate lives (even when it comes to parenting) should take care of the rest.

 

First, a parenting plan filed with the court has the status of a court order. So the schedule set forth in the parenting plan is not optional. Though I have seen it said that if one parent has Primary custody then the other "non-custodial" parent has a right to the scheduled time but not an obligation. Either way thought, the Law and the parenting plan schedule would govern. There would be none of this "I'm going to have a busy month" fuzzy negotiations.

 

A common parenting plan inclusion is "First Right of Refusal". This would mean if either one of you can't care for the children, then you must offer the time to the other before a grandparent or 3rd party child care. Not every plan has this. I intended to have it in my plan. I'm actually happy that it didn't make it in. If you had a parenting plan, whether First Right of Refusal was in it would decide the issue. I have heard that even if it is in there, enforceability is questionable. But it gives a starting point or technically correct answer to whether you could arrange care for the children without involving their mom.

 

A Parenting Plan would also say what types of decision making are to be done jointly. Most would have joint decision making on things like education, religion, and medical stuff. Apart from that it's up to each parent. My plan even specifically says day to day decision making is up to the parent who has the child at the time. That means she can't decide you're going to do a Skype session during your time. Whether you do or don't isn't a religious, educational, or medical decision. It's a day to day parenting decision that depends on all of the variables of kids and life just like you spelled out in that situation as it evolved.

 

So, as far as I understand it, here's how that plays out:

 

(1) Yes, she was wrong to promise them you would Skype. You were right about that. But, there's really nothing to stop her from continuing to promise the kids stuff you would have to agree to prior to getting your agreement. It's apparently a common problem. I understand not wanting to be the bad guy. The experts and the books all say in the end the children will realize she is making promises she has no control over.

 

(2) The same applies to how she conducts herself with her boyfriend. She may do things that she "shouldn't". But, having the kids meet the boyfriend isn't a major educational, religious, or medical decision. It's a day to day parenting decision. Maybe a bad one. But it's hers to make.

 

I absolutely agree with the precedent of not setting foot in each other's places. It's a firm, clear place to draw the line. There is nothing about the etiquette of a handoff that should require you to be in each other's residence. All a court is going to care about is a good faith effort to have the kids at the right place at the right time. There is certainly no expectation that you be allowed access to each other's residence.

 

There's nothing technically wrong with letting her in your house. Some parenting arrangements even have the kids stay at the same house all the time and the parents switch locations. So if everything was amicable and working, fine. Whatever.

 

The question of what's working brings up another point. Whether you have a plan or not, courts give a lot of weight to precedent. If the kids are used to something and you've been doing it for 6 months or more, the courts are going to give weight to that. So, if you've already been following a certain schedule, even if you don't have a Parenting Plan, changing it would require a burden of proof that the changes are in the children's best interest.

 

Don't wing it on the child support. Get an official support order. The state considers that you are responsible it. If you don't get an official one, it doesn't matter what you negotiate with her. If at any point you end up at the court, the court will retroactively calculate what they think it should be.

 

This is an important point to get. In the eyes of the state, child support is an obligation between you and your children. In some kind of legal sense, the mom is not even a party to it even if she is the one that receives it. So, anything you negotiate with her is meaningless.

 

- I'm not an attorney. This isn't legal advice. It's opinion from personal experience. Regard it as something you read some place on the internet. Which is what it is.

 

.

Edited December 4, 2016 by testmeasure

[The_Onceler]

- I'm not an attorney. This isn't legal advice. It's opinion from personal experience. Regard it as something you read some place on the internet. Which is what it is.

 

testmeasure: Thanks for the detailed reply.

 

My ex and I do not have anything official or legal regarding our separation. We were not married, although we have two daughters, and we had lived as a family since they were born. When she announced her intention to leave (and when I found out about the other man), I went into something of a tailspin. I was fearful of involving lawyers because of what I had seen other men go through, so I resisted when she suggested mediation.

 

Initially, we focused on the financial issues. She wanted to remain in our house until she had found a good job and a new place to live. I wanted to get her name off of the deed. So, we came to an agreement. She stayed for about 2-1/2 more months. I bought her out of the house.

 

We have no single, official parenting plan. Once the financial questions were resolved, she seemed less inclined to go with mediation or lawyers. We worked out a specific custody plan between us. We decided on a pure 50/50 split, and adopted a 2-2-3 pattern.

 

However, as you noted, we did not set out guidelines about how/when we could deviate from the 2-2-3 schdule. Furthermore, we had not negotiated holidays and such. We eventually negotiated this holiday season, though it was painful. She had sent me a detailed spreadsheet with an intricate departure from our 2-2-3 schedule. It described the following general schedule: she would have the kids for Thanksgiving day, and I would pick them up the day after at mid-day. She would then have the kids for Christmas Eve and overnight in to Christmas Day. I would pick them up at noon on Christmas Day. As you might imagine, I did not agree to her plan. We went round and round on that, until she finally agreed that she could have one or the other of the two holidays with the kids, and then we would alternate, year on year.

 

I agree - I have no expectation of being able to tell her what she can and cannot do with regard to involving her boyfriend in their lives. I felt it was ill advised to have them meet so soon, and I offered my opinion when she started that conversation, but I left it at that - I merely told her that I thought she was making a mistake.

 

With regard to the promises that she makes for me, or other directives that she makes that span into my time with the kids (she is prone to punishing the kids with stuff life, "No treats for a week!" or "No TV for a week!" - even though I might disagree with the punishment, and even though the kids are with me for part of those weeks): I explained that it was unacceptable to levy such punishments without first speaking with me, and that she risked having her authority undermined if/when I declined to enforce her directives. She has only done that once so far.

 

I have my own reasons for not wanting her in my house, and for not wanting to be in her apartment, but primarily I feel it is best for the kids to avoid these situations. I have observed that the kids react badly to having us all under one roof (especially at my house), only to then have their mother leave. I think at this stage, it is too hard on them to experience what seems like a reversal to our lives "before" to only then have to again face that we are split.

 

But, I take your larger point: we do need legal counsel and to make our agreements formal/legal. I am in the process of retaining an attorney now.

 

We agreed on a 50/50 split at the outset, and I know that she loves her kids, so I don't mean to insinuate otherwise. However, she has clearly made it a priority to build her career, and her field of choice requires that she frequently works night and weekends. She is still only getting up to speed, and even now, she evidently is already having trouble balancing work and custody. From what I understand, as she gets busier and busier in her job (which she anticipates), this will become more and more of a problem. I half suspect that she will have to pull back and grant me primary custody, quite simply because she cannot manage her new career AND having the kids half of the time.

 

This is speculation, but the notion adds to my sense that I need an attorney.

[testmeasure]

But, I take your larger point: we do need legal counsel and to make our agreements formal/legal. I am in the process of retaining an attorney now.

 

That certainly was the larger point.

 

Like mine, your ex made a series of life changing decisions. What's next? More work less custody? Changing her mind all together and wanting primary? A busy month? A month where she wants to go on vacation with the kids and the other guy?

 

I understand that you weren't married and didn't divorce. I read all 7 pages of the thread. (At least your posts anyway.) I've been through the process. In my case, I was married. However, we settled financially and made it binding with legal paperwork before she filed for divorce. So, in some ways I was in your position once she did file. The only thing up in the air was custody. Financially you were never married. Financially, I had already amicably "divorced". Custody.

 

It's great that you and your ex can negotiate things like the holiday schedule. That made me think back to our settlement. Somehow things pulled together and with both attorneys present we were able to do that. But that was after more than a half a year of attorney involvement and just prior to the stage where we would have gone to trial. If you're able go directly to working things out that's so much better. I view myself as lucky that my ex got more reasonable. Question is, what guarantee is there yours doesn't get less reasonable? She's making life changing decisions.

 

The important thing, the "larger point" is to get it in writing. She's no longer on your team. She's making life changing decisions. Sometimes I hate the fact that the "larger point" boils down to "get a receipt". The receipt or getting it in writing is a simplistic small thing, but it bypasses and avoids entire battles and wars.

 

I probably had a higher conflict custody situation than you. So I see these things in high contrast black and white. I'm going to try to put the feel of this into words and probably do it badly. Right now the two of you talk. You have to reach an agreement. The default is figuring out stuff together. You have to work as a team. At the same time, she's no longer on your team and she's making life changing decisions without you. Conjure that image and all that it implies now and down the road. In contrast, a parenting plan filed with the court is a court order. It doesn't require any agreement or talking. The more specific it is, the less you need to "agree" on. You no longer have to agree. There is a default.

 

A good parenting plan with good specifics would have already avoided half of your worried posts because you would already have a default set in stone to stand on.

 

With her job and life choices, document all the alterations to what is agreed to. I want you to register this as the 2nd largest point. Right now you are touch and go, on the fly agreement. Getting a formal legal default is the primary. Just right behind that is the actual implementation. If she agrees to every Monday but never takes the child on Monday, that's significant. If she argues for X % of time but never uses it, that's significant.

 

With equal weight, realize that the same weight of precedent applies to your actions. Precedent.

 

You really do sound like a father that is more involved and dedicated to your children's lives. You also sound humble about it. There is no reason to be humble about that. Just weigh the question of when to be humble.

 

- Again, I'm not an attorney. None of this should be construed as legal advice. This is just the internet. It's all just opinion. My opinion is to get an attorney and actual legal advice. There are deviations and nuances in how things are handled. The best answer is to get an attorney in your local area who knows the court system in your area. My opinion? Get a legally valid receipt.

[The_Onceler]

- Again, I'm not an attorney. None of this should be construed as legal advice. This is just the internet. It's all just opinion. My opinion is to get an attorney and actual legal advice. There are deviations and nuances in how things are handled. The best answer is to get an attorney in your local area who knows the court system in your area. My opinion? Get a legally valid receipt.

 

Thanks again for all of your insights. They are very much appreciated.

 

After reading your posts, I guess I have been lucky so far. While it seemed that we argued for quite a while regarding how to handle the holidays, in the end, we WERE able to come to an agreement without requiring mediation or attorneys. I hadn't thought of that previously.

 

So far we have stuck fairly consistently to the 50/50 split. The only real departures have been:

 

(1) That one weekend where she wanted me to take the kids so she could go away with the other man (I declined, so she sent them to be with her family, and I then received the girls on Sunday evening, a day ahead of the typical schedule).

 

(2) during the holidays, where she needed to work on Friday the 25th, so I picked up the girls in the early morning.

 

(3) I picked up the kids and fed them on one of "her" nights. She then came to fetch our older girl for an event, and I kept the younger girl with me. She then brought both girls home with her afterward.

 

(4) When she first moved out, I had the kids with me for a few additional days while she got settled into her apartment.

 

 

I guess I don't know how that all appears in contrast to the "typical" family. I can say that I have not asked my ex to take the kids for any of what was my scheduled time. I have had my family babysit the kids on days when they were out of school but when I could not take time from work. That happened on two particular days.

 

I am content with the 50/50 split. I would not accept less, and would fight any such request. I would be happy to assume full custody, if it came to that.

 

And I also take your point: she and I are no longer on the same team. She has essentially declared for herself, and switched teams (to the new man?). For the time being, she seems intent on working together. I think that in part her narcissism helps in this regard: it is VERY important to her that to the outside world we seem to be doing the right things.

 

I will have to take advantage of this time to work with her on a fair and equitable legal agreement.

[Jersey born raised]

I Need to go back and re-read your posts but: how did you caculate child support? Pay by check and make a note on check: CS for...... It may help if this becomes an issue.

[The_Onceler]

I Need to go back and re-read your posts but: how did you caculate child support? Pay by check and make a note on check: CS for...... It may help if this becomes an issue.

 

Our state has a simple child support equation, available from the gov website. We just used that, and punched in our numbers.

 

So far I do not have a formal paper trail, aside from chains of email conversations where we discuss all of this stuff.

 

I have disentangled my finances from hers now, so starting Jan 1 I will be writing her a check from my new checking account. I will be sure to note that it is for child support.

[The_Onceler]

She really is exhausting...

 

In the days before she moved out, she spent much of her time packing and organizing for the move. We discussed how we would split up most of the larger items (flat screen TV, furniture, snow blower, vacuum cleaner, etc). However, it was not really possible to discuss each and every little thing.

 

My experience of it was that, each day when I came home from work, there were more and more boxes of stuff packed up and awaiting moving day. I did not have the time or energy to open these boxes up and dig through them, so I took her at her word that she was splitting things fairly.

 

Of course, since then, it seems that whenever I go to look for something, it is gone (Hey, where is the measuring cup? Where are the measuring spoons? Where is that pan? etc.).

 

Despite all that she packed, she left a fair number of boxes untouched in the attic. Among what she left were Christmas decorations and the like. She just sent me a note saying this: "At some point soon I would like to go through all the Christmas wrapping stuff and we can split it up. There should be plenty for us both. Some of the gift bags I have been holding onto for many years and are oddly sentimental to me, so I do have some preference over which ones I keep."

 

Am I being petty to say that I am just sick of having to spend time working with her to split up this sort of thing? Can I justify simply telling her to go get new wrapping paper and bows and gift bags? I suppose I could as easily just turn it all over to her, but for Heaven's sake...

[testmeasure]

I think it was the fact that she tried to give you a weekend instead of trading it that caught my attention. Over time giving you time sets a precedent.

 

With how early on you are, maybe it's more useful to emphasize that I don't see there being a down side to you taking the kids during her time and I think it's good that you've been as self sufficient as possible during your time. I think your instinct to follow the schedule is good. I would worry less about taking the kids during her time.

 

I find it interesting that you have mentioned narcissism and even prior to that you talked about her narrative. I was unaware of the concept in my case. I just knew it was hugely important how something would sound or look to other people if it was posted on Facebook. It was only well after the fact that I discovered psychological concepts for this.

 

I didn't directly think of this because it seems in your case the narrative has never gone directly against you. She moved directly to you having a new positive role to play. That makes it harder to spot if it's actually even the case.

 

My situation didn't transition quite so smoothly. I got a year of narcissistic rage. Once I got primary custody, my ex literally made an over-night transition to the kind of narrative you're experiencing. It was an overnight transition from the darkest hostility and anger you can imagine to an audition for happy/friendly co-parent of the year.

 

None of your separation with her affair made me think of this stuff. However, a couple times you described the importance of how stuff would look to others as a motive for how she was handling custody. The way you described it made me think of the current co-parent of the year narrative I'm seeing. That was even before you mentioned narcissism.

 

Maybe in your case the narcissism is a more subtle. I say that because if narcissism is part of the picture, I would tend to think it would be a bigger part of the picture, if not the whole picture. Maybe it's worth keeping in mind to do some research about narcissism and related disorders. In my case it explained everything I had experienced.

Edited December 5, 2016 by testmeasure

[The_Onceler]

Thanks again, testmeasure.

 

I should probably refrain from throwing terms like "narcissism" around, as if I am qualified to make such assessments. I was mostly editorializing and attempting to concisely define her, which really isn't fair.

 

I use the term "narcissism" with her for a number of reasons, which may in fact be the wrong ones. As I noted, it is VERY important for her that people around us think everything is just rosy. For example, we'd had a number of social engagements lined up for Summer where we were hosting people at our new house. She was adamant that we neither cancel nor tell anyone about our impending split. For my part, I was torn: I desperately wanted to be around family and friends, but I didn't want to be dishonest with those same people.

 

But it is not just her desire to have everything appear to be good. It is also that she tends to over-romanticize our lives, or her life. In a recent exchange, she went on about how wonderful her new relationship was, and about her fervent wish that I would find something as wonderful for myself.

 

I guess I could take her at her word, but as I read her notes, I realized that she had said many of the same things in the past. She would say stuff like, the other man "has always been in her heart", and "she knows that her love for him is too powerful to ignore" etc. The thing is, back before the babies were born, she would right letters to me saying the exact same stuff about me. And over the years, I saw some of her letters to other men, and she would say the same things to them.

 

It seems like she has a romance-novel narrative going on, and all the men in her life are simply actors placed into the pre-existing roles.

 

But maybe I am feeling too much hurt to be objective about any of this.

 

I do appreciate that you have taken an interest. I am sorry that you too had to go through something similar (or worse!), but that fact that you made it through gives me more reason to be optimistic.

 

Thanks.

[testmeasure]

I've seen the romance novel thing before too. I don't think of that as narcissism. I encountered it long before I discovered those concepts. I think of it as they are more in love with the idea of being in love than they are in love with the person they are with. Sort of like your version where they put you in a role and the emotional response is to the role you are in as opposed to who you actually are.

 

The stuff about keeping the hosting engagements for appearance does make me think of narcissism. I kind of sensed you were using the term informally rather than definitively. I'd still say if you're already using the idea to make sense of things or explain them, once you have some time, look into the formal set of concepts and see if it helps.

 

The most pressing thing I see is the parenting plan and I don't mean to distract from that. If you weren't married and she doesn't go for some common law thing, hopefully the finance part is completely done. That she's agreeing to 50/50 custody is great. That you guys can negotiate things like the holidays is great. It's just got to be in writing filed with the court. Same thing with child support.

 

On child support, another part of a support order may include some kind of break down of major expenses outside of the basic support. This would be things like educational and medical expenses. Once you go to get a formal support order, pay attention to that too.

[Jersey born raised]

Hi take time to read Downtown's posts about BPD and cluster B disorders.

 

Understand the tests for these are many and denote a range based on a scale. So, for example on any individual test the scaie with a scale of one to 10 we all would place somewhere between one and ten. When all the tests from individual scaies show a high mark it is judged to be boarder line. There is no blood test per-say for a disorder.

 

The point for you to grasp is understand what are the motivations for the person we are forced to deal with so we can protect our self.

[anna121]

Onceler,

 

If it's not too many boxes, go through them, keep what you want and put the rest outside your house for her to pick up. Don't agree to "go through them together". That's ridiculous.

 

It's Xmas wrapping. She will get over it and no one else who matters will care. It's not worth having to personally interact with her.

[The_Onceler]

Onceler,

 

If it's not too many boxes, go through them, keep what you want and put the rest outside your house for her to pick up. Don't agree to "go through them together". That's ridiculous.

 

It's Xmas wrapping. She will get over it and no one else who matters will care. It's not worth having to personally interact with her.

 

Agreed! My plan was to share out the stuff as I see fit (I think I am able to be fair, and as you say, it is only wrapping paper!). I don't give a rat's patootie about the gift bags, so she can have them.

 

I was going to put her share of the stuff, plus the gift bags, in a box and leave it on her doorstep. End of story.

 

Honestly, I think that is more than fair.

[Marc878]

Excellent way to handle it. Less contact the better.

 

You need to establish a hard 180. It's what's best for you.

 

Never answer phone calls directly. Reply only to texts/emails kids only short and civil once the split is complete. Anything else delete and no response needed.

 

Don't do the "friends" thing. Nothing for you there.

[Marc878]

Beware if the "grass is greener syndrome" ends. As they usually do.

 

She's shown you who she is. Remember that.

[The_Onceler]

Beware if the "grass is greener syndrome" ends. As they usually do.

 

She's shown you who she is. Remember that.

 

Thanks, I will try to keep that in mind. You know, it is sad to say, but I could probably forgive her for almost anything that she might do to me. I don't think I will ever forgive her for what she did to our family.

 

Tho, perhaps in time, I might find she did us all a favor?

 

Since the kids seem to be doing fairly well with the split, I can't imagine any rationalization that I might make to myself for going back now.

 

I do find that, the more distance I get, the better I feel. She and I will have to see each other once or twice over the holidays, but after the new year, I won't have to see her for a couple of months, I figure. Also, I am about to get my banking in order such that I can start writing her checks for CS. I am actually EXCITED about the notion of just dropping a check in the mail. No messages, no coordination, no nothing.

 

Its the little things...

[The_Onceler]

So, this was in a message that I received from the ex regarding the upcoming Christmas break (the kids have no school from Dec 26 - Jan 3rd; I have those same days off):

 

 

Her: Then there are 4 more days of vacation week Tue - Fri. Given the schedule, I imagine I will be responsible for days on Tue and Wed, and you will have Thurs and Fri. I don't think I can afford to put them in the Y camp and I don't have any vacation time from work, so I may have to plan to find other care arrangements during the other 2 school vacation days that I have them. (I am not sure what you have going on, but I didn't imagine you'd want them all 4 days...let me know if you want to take them more than your 2 days.)

 

 

 

I offered to take them for the days that she was working:

 

Me: How about I pick the kids up in the evening on Monday the 26th? Then I can keep them with me for the week, and return them to you Friday evening. It would be more or less our usual schedule, except that I cover for two of your weekdays. Would that work?

 

 

 

Here is her response:

 

Her: I think the schedule you propose would probably work out for me. I am wondering if maybe on Wednesday night if I could take the kids out to dinner or something so I can see them for a couple hours midweek.

 

 

 

 

I'd love to hear some independent observations of this exchange.

[Mr. Lucky]

Sounds like the reasonable give and take most divorced co-parents use as life goes on.

 

Am I missing something?

 

Mr. Lucky

[Jersey born raised]

Agree with Mr Lucky. Your divorce settlement should include right of first refusal in these situations going forward. I strongly urged a poster in the past whose wife was in a deep fog to take every opportunity to accept gracefully and with appreciation for custody. I urged him to make it easy for her to "dump" the kids on her for a year to work with a lawyer to set her up. He did and now has primary custody instead of 50/50 and is payed child support instead of paying child support. It is a deep long term play but even if it does not work out you still have the time to with your children.

[The_Onceler]

Sounds like the reasonable give and take most divorced co-parents use as life goes on.

 

Am I missing something?

 

Mr. Lucky

 

 

No, you probably aren't missing anything, which is why I asked. I found myself being irritated, and was attempting to determine if I was reacting rationally.

 

I guess I was hoping for a "that would be great, thanks!" since she is in a bind, and I was helping out.

 

I guess the other point, which is not self evident, is that the kids tend to get very upset when they go back and forth between us. Generally, our current custody arrangement is such that their mother and I are never in the same place. On days where the kids switch, one of us puts them on the bus in the AM, and the other picks them up after school. The school day is a natural buffer.

 

In contrast, when we have had to hand them off directly, especially when there is some sort of "visit" involved, the kids seem to experience some sort of "Divorce PTSD" - its as if the experience of having the four of us together, and then having an enjoyable visit (from their perspective), only to then leave with one parent or the other - it sets them back. In some instances, they have been fine. In others, I have spent hours dealing with crying, hysterical kids.

 

She knows this, and she knows that I don't like the idea of the "visit".

 

Also, if I have the kids for a 4 day stretch, I might want to go visit with family and such, and I don't want to have to plan around her "dinner date".

 

 

 

Anyway, I guess that in the end, it seems that my annoyance was just my own issue.

 

 

 

In regards to a custody arrangement - we have not done anything legal, but we have an arrangement. The problem (as I see it) is that she continues to want/need to adjust the arrangement to fit her career needs. If I decline to adjust, she accuses me of being spiteful. When I attempt to meet her needs, but with requirements of my own, I am inflexible.

 

I guess perhaps that is why a legal arrangement is needed, but I honestly don't know what I would want to ask for in such an arrangement - that she stops altering the plan, or that she is allowed to do so (with first refusal and all).

 

I have a legal benefit at work that kicks in on Jan 1, so I will retain a lawyer at that time.

[anna121]

No, you probably aren't missing anything, which is why I asked. I found myself being irritated, and was attempting to determine if I was reacting rationally.

 

I guess I was hoping for a "that would be great, thanks!" since she is in a bind, and I was helping out.

 

I guess the other point, which is not self evident, is that the kids tend to get very upset when they go back and forth between us. Generally, our current custody arrangement is such that their mother and I are never in the same place. On days where the kids switch, one of us puts them on the bus in the AM, and the other picks them up after school. The school day is a natural buffer.

 

In contrast, when we have had to hand them off directly, especially when there is some sort of "visit" involved, the kids seem to experience some sort of "Divorce PTSD" - its as if the experience of having the four of us together, and then having an enjoyable visit (from their perspective), only to then leave with one parent or the other - it sets them back. In some instances, they have been fine. In others, I have spent hours dealing with crying, hysterical kids.

 

She knows this, and she knows that I don't like the idea of the "visit".

 

Also, if I have the kids for a 4 day stretch, I might want to go visit with family and such, and I don't want to have to plan around her "dinner date".

 

 

 

Anyway, I guess that in the end, it seems that my annoyance was just my own issue.

 

 

 

In regards to a custody arrangement - we have not done anything legal, but we have an arrangement. The problem (as I see it) is that she continues to want/need to adjust the arrangement to fit her career needs. If I decline to adjust, she accuses me of being spiteful. When I attempt to meet her needs, but with requirements of my own, I am inflexible.

 

I guess perhaps that is why a legal arrangement is needed, but I honestly don't know what I would want to ask for in such an arrangement - that she stops altering the plan, or that she is allowed to do so (with first refusal and all).

 

I have a legal benefit at work that kicks in on Jan 1, so I will retain a lawyer at that time.

 

1. If you'd like to take advantage of the 4 days, and don't want the hassle of a 2-hour hand-off, then just say that. "A mid-week dinner with you won't work for me. I'm willing to take them for the 4 days."

 

2. You HAVE to detach from her BS. If she accuses you of being spiteful "So, anyway, what do you think of my offer?"

 

3. You probably want the flexibility of first refusal, but your lawyer may be able to work out some language to inhibit her from asking for it too much. Maybe that if there are a certain number of requested changes in a month, you'll revisit the arrangement or something?

[The_Onceler]

1. If you'd like to take advantage of the 4 days, and don't want the hassle of a 2-hour hand-off, then just say that. "A mid-week dinner with you won't work for me. I'm willing to take them for the 4 days."

 

2. You HAVE to detach from her BS. If she accuses you of being spiteful "So, anyway, what do you think of my offer?"

 

3. You probably want the flexibility of first refusal, but your lawyer may be able to work out some language to inhibit her from asking for it too much. Maybe that if there are a certain number of requested changes in a month, you'll revisit the arrangement or something?

 

Thanks for your input!

 

Yes, that was how I handled it, initially. I said that I was not comfortable with the mid-week visit requirement, but otherwise I was happy to step in and cover for the full four days. If she didn't want to go 4 days without seeing the kids, then I was also happy to go with our original schedule.

 

So she fired back with comments about how it was me who had the problem, and not the kids. About how we needed to start seeing a counselor, and that this issue needed to be addressed. About how I was being unreasonable, etc., etc.

 

So, I re-iterated that I was just trying to help out. She could take my offer or not.

 

I guess I am just trying to ascertain whether I am (1) having some spine for once and asserting my own needs or (2) just being a jerk. I have for years been told that I am just being a jerk in these situations. It is hard for me to assess whether she is right or not...

[Mr. Lucky]

I said that I was not comfortable with the mid-week visit requirement, but otherwise I was happy to step in and cover for the full four days. If she didn't want to go 4 days without seeing the kids, then I was also happy to go with our original schedule.

 

First off, each situation is different. What worked for me - or anyone else - may not work for you.

 

Your take it or leave it approach - no visit or I won't take the kids - seems counterproductive and you'd benefit by disconnecting your actions from her responses. There's three entities here - you, her and the co-parenting relationship. Even if it feels like you're working alone, you should consider supporting all three. Think long term ...

 

Mr. Lucky