Stuck in Limbo

[The_Onceler]

I am so pissed right now.

 

My two kids have the week off from school. I have the week off, and the kids are with me all week. They *were* going to be with their mother on Tue/Wed, and then with me on Thu/Fri. However, a week or two back, my ex had sent me an email where she started a conversation about how we might manage this week.

 

She pointed out that she nominally expected to have the kids on Tue/Wed. However, she went on to note that she has no vacation time available yet, so she was going to have to figure out some plan for child care. She didn't explicitly ask me to take them, but she was clear that she was in a pickle, and she asked, "(I am not sure what you have going on, but I didn't imagine you'd want them all 4 days...let me know if you want to take them more than your 2 days."

 

So I offered to take them all 4 days, and then she countered with a requirement that I could take them for all 4 days, but she would need me to make them available to her on Wednesday night so she could take them to dinner. I said no, and withdrew my offer. We went round and round, and she argued that the children would miss her if they were away from her for a stretch of 4 days, and it was cruel for me to deny them a visit.

 

Anyway, she finally relented, and I have the kids with me.

 

Today, the kids have their cousin visiting. She is 20, and they are doing nails and such. I had to run to the store for a few things, and I figured I would give them some time alone, so I ducked out. On a whim, I drove past their mother's apartment, and she was home, and her boyfriend was there with her.

 

So, it turns out that she CAN get time off from work, but she would rather spend it with her boyfriend than with her children. And in the process of arranging for me to have them all week, she wanted me to send them to her for a visit. So, essentially, she wanted to take the week off from the kids so that she could be with her man, but she also wanted me to drop them with her for a few hours so she could visit with them.

 

WTF? What the hell am I? The nanny?

 

I was so tempted to go knock on the door and confront her, but I figured that might go badly, so...

[BluesPower]

Yes you are the nanny...

 

This is why you don't do her favors. You were the nanny when she was having the affair and you still are.

 

As much as you may have loved her, I think you may want to realize that she never really loved you or respected you, ever. She used you to have a family and as soon as she could she was out getting some strange, just like she did when you were dating, REMEMBER?

 

This is what everyone was taking about when we were scolding you when you found out about the affair.

 

She has been using you since she first met you. Don't feel like the lone ranger. I just realized that after 26 years of hell, my wife never loved me either.

 

So now, maybe this will sink in... MOVE ON. START DATING. FIND A WOMAN THAT LOVES YOU. It will never ever be her, it never was.

[The_Onceler]

Yes you are the nanny...

 

This is why you don't do her favors. You were the nanny when she was having the affair and you still are.

 

Thanks for your comments.

 

The thing is, I am happy to have the kids with me this week. Having the kids is not what bothers me. What bothers me is that when I would not watch the kids this week according to HER demands, she started verbally attacking me, making me out to be the bad guy. She leaned on her lie to make me seem bad. She went on and on about how the kids would miss her, and how I was a cruel bastard for not allowing them to see her in the middle of the week.

 

And she had me questioning myself, and whether I *was* just a jerk.

 

Instead, it was SHE who was choosing her boyfriend over the kids, and even while doing so, lying to me and manipulating the situation to make me out to be the bad guy.

 

I am happy to have the kids. I am NOT happy to have been made to feel like a bad person in order to make that happen. So, what? In the future, I could either forego my chance at time with my kids, or perhaps relent and give in to her lies, and do everything on her terms?

 

That is what bothers me - the lies and manipulations.

 

If she had said, "Hey, I want to have a sex marathon with my boyfriend to ring in the new year - do you mind taking the kids all week?" - I would have been fine with that. Instead, she put me in a position to have to defend myself, to fight, to be insulted and maligned, TO QUESTION MYSELF.

 

That is what makes me so angry.

 

I guess in hindsight, I could/should have done everything just the same in this situation, except that I should have totally ignored her when it came to the insults and fighting and whatnot.

 

Gah!

[BluesPower]

Yes I know...

 

Look man, I got to ask, after everything that she has put you through, are you surprised? Are you really surprised?

 

Do you understand that she is basically bat S*** crazy. She is nuts, and she likes to make your life miserable. What kind of person does that?

 

You wife is the type of person that does that kind of thing...

[The_Onceler]

Yes I know...

 

Look man, I got to ask, after everything that she has put you through, are you surprised? Are you really surprised?

 

I guess that is the crux of the problem. I am surprised. Or I continue to be surprised. Just when I think I have plumbed the depths of what she is capable of, she shows me something new.

 

Because, yes, when she was claiming that she had to work all week, and that she would rather have the kids with me than to cobble together a patchwork of child care - when she claimed that I needed to allow the kids to visit with her because it was in their best interest, because they would miss her... Even though I disagreed with her, I assumed that she was being honest and sincere.

 

I mean, what kind of person would choose to spend their time with their boyfriend instead of their kids, especially when the kids NEEDED somebody to watch them? What kind of person would choose to be with their boyfriend instead of their kids, and then attempt to malign me by saying that I was keeping the kids from her, and I would be hurting the kids when they wound up missing her?

 

So, yes, honestly I didn't think she was capable of that.

 

 

 

Anyway... I suspect that I will learn from all of this repetition. I really do appreciate your comments. Please believe me when I say that I have no desire or intention to reconcile with her. My strife now is in just navigating my "divorce" from her, given that she is capable of manipulations that I had never considered.

 

I do hope for a loving relationship of my own some day, but I don't think I am nearly ready for dating just yet. Maybe I will give that a whirl in the coming year...

 

 

PS: Thanks for the dialogue today. You really helped talk me off today's particular ledge.

[Jersey born raised]

Crazy people do and think crazy things. Stay strong, stay rooted and keep moving forward. Think thrice, pick a direction, act boldly. In the end it is that simple.

[BluesPower]

OP Listen...

 

Don't think that I am dogging on you. I am not.

 

But your love and blindness for this woman is astounding. But don't think you are the only one. I have done some of the same stuff in my life.

 

Some of the things that you said in your last post is the reason that I ask the question "are you surprised?". Because you should not be.

 

You see, she has been cheating on you from about the first day that you met her. You think she skirted breakups and what not so she really was not "Cheating". That is just silly on your part. And now, it is time to realize all of that.

 

You could not believe that she manipulated you so she could have a couple of days of sex with her boyfriend, why would you not believe it. She has been doing this with different men the entire time you have know her.

 

But she saw you as a weak beta man that would be great to have kids with. You are smart and loving and you make a great father.

 

This is what I was talking about saying that you have been a dish rag. This is what I mean when I say that you need some therapy to understand when you are being manipulated. These characteristics of yours are the reason that she has no respect for you. Because you allow people to walk all over you. She throws and loving your way and you have been bouncing around behind her like a puppy dog.

 

She is a crazy, sadistic person. And, for whatever reason she picked you to torture.

 

Stop letting her do it. Get some help and learn how to stand up for yourself and not be so gullible so in your next relationship, you will not pick a woman like her.

[The_Onceler]

OP Listen...

 

Don't think that I am dogging on you. I am not.

 

No worries - I appreciate that you take the time to post and offer your perspective.

 

 

But your love and blindness for this woman is astounding. But don't think you are the only one. I have done some of the same stuff in my life.

 

My first thought when I read this was, I don't love her. And I don't think that I do. But, yes - I certainly have been blind or naive regarding what she was capable of doing.

 

 

Some of the things that you said in your last post is the reason that I ask the question "are you surprised?". Because you should not be.

 

You see, she has been cheating on you from about the first day that you met her. You think she skirted breakups and what not so she really was not "Cheating". That is just silly on your part. And now, it is time to realize all of that.

 

Oh, I agree with you there. Ever since I first learned about all the other men and the incredibly cavalier and promiscuous life she maintained - well, I have firmly believed that she cheated on me, in various ways. I only ever presented it in the manner that I did, that she was not "technically" cheating, because she had always been so adamant on that point. I guess I was trying to head off the people who might take her point of view on the matter. Because, in my estimation, the technicality of it was not the point.

 

 

You could not believe that she manipulated you so she could have a couple of days of sex with her boyfriend, why would you not believe it. She has been doing this with different men the entire time you have know her.

 

I would not be surprised that she might do such things to me, generally. I am surprised that she would do such things to the kids. And I *was* surprised that she would argue so passionately while being so outrageously hypocritical.

 

 

But she saw you as a weak beta man that would be great to have kids with. You are smart and loving and you make a great father.

 

Yes. I think there is a great deal of truth to this. And she seems to REALLY hate it now, whenever I show some spine.

 

 

This is what I was talking about saying that you have been a dish rag. This is what I mean when I say that you need some therapy to understand when you are being manipulated. These characteristics of yours are the reason that she has no respect for you. Because you allow people to walk all over you. She throws and loving your way and you have been bouncing around behind her like a puppy dog.

 

Agreed. I had a great therapist that I was seeing back before the kids were born. In fact, I was seeing that therapist when she and I split, and she moved back east. I think I turned all of my energy toward making our "family" work, and in doing so, I convinced myself to take a great deal of crap from her, for the greater good.

 

I am trying to be done with that. And I intend to find myself a therapist here.

 

 

She is a crazy, sadistic person. And, for whatever reason she picked you to torture.

 

I guess that, after enough time has passed, it is hard to know if the other person is crazy, or if it is you. Because, let me say, she has spent much of the last 9 years trying to convince me that I am the crazy one. That is hard to combat. I mean, if you were crazy, would you know it?

 

 

Stop letting her do it. Get some help and learn how to stand up for yourself and not be so gullible so in your next relationship, you will not pick a woman like her.

 

Yeah, that is the plan: stop letting her control me in any way, find a good therapist, and eventually consider a new, healthy relationship.

[Jersey born raised]

Say Amen, and then say it again, amen

[testmeasure]

I guess that, after enough time has passed, it is hard to know if the other person is crazy, or if it is you. Because, let me say, she has spent much of the last 9 years trying to convince me that I am the crazy one. That is hard to combat. I mean, if you were crazy, would you know it?

 

Wow. And, I don't just mean wow to what I quoted. The way you have expressed things since discovering she was at home this week hits home.

 

I think you are beginning to see things that I can directly relate to.

 

First, you seem smart. Beyond even that, you seem to think about things systematically. You seem to be very clear on what you believe to be true and what you don't believe. When you have intuitive reservations or gut feelings you seem to be in touch with them enough to quickly introspect, identify and state the basis or reasons for those feelings.

 

I would like to think I have a lot of those same qualities. I used to believe that those kind of qualities made me immune from certain kinds of emotional games. Or at least as immune as possible and certainly immune from any residual harm. I don't believe that any more. I've come to see that there are certain emotional environments where just being in the environment is harmful.

 

The part that I quoted above is almost compact enough, concise enough, and yet with still enough detail to be a definition of something called "Gaslighting". You describe it so well, I probably couldn't do better. I mean it's not exactly a definition. But, if you go research it, you probably won't come across as good a description as your own for a while. Just know that exactly what you described is a thing. It's a thing people do. If they're doing it to you, your reason and your ability to hold on to what you believe to be true can't help. It's an emotional environment that does emotional damage regardless of how strong your sense of reason and truth are. The only cure or answer is to get out of that environment.

 

The way you are stating things is eerie. Trying to see her side of it and why you might be the one who is wrong. Meanwhile other responders telling you she's crazy. That happened to me.

 

Before our end, I had already realized that my ex could find something wrong with anything I did. Even that didn't help. My attorney would get some complaint from her or her attorney. He'd come to me and ask what this problem was. I'd explain it all from her perspective as well as I could, effectively as you would put it, trying to explain why I was the jerk. He'd listen to my explanation and tell me that she was crazy. Even knowing she could find something wrong with anything, I was explaining and defending her perspective. All while others were telling me she was crazy.

 

This ability for her to have an affair and you be the bad guy. There is no end to that. It doesn't follow reason or logic.

 

I'm trying to open a window for you to a different world.

 

A long, long time ago I realized people used emotion as a tool for getting what they want. More than 20 years ago I was renting an apartment that wasn't quite available yet. I just wanted to know what the carpet color was, so I could shop for some furniture. The apartment lady started yelling at me, yet the content of what she was saying didn't even engage my statements. Sitting down for lunch an hour later, I realized: hey she was just trying to get me to go away by being angry. Her side of the communication had nothing to do with content.

 

In particular after the divorce, spending time on message boards like this, I've seen this time and time again. It's still one of the hardest things to apply to your own personal situation, but you can just see it clear as the light of day in what others say, post and copy from communications.

 

(1) The rational person communicates specific content.

 

(2) The communication upsets the irrational person.

 

(3) The irrational person responds with an incoherent, contradictory, or obviously false, but quite upsetting response.

 

(4) The rational person is confused, upset and lost.

 

You read these for a while and it starts to become quite striking how well calculated (3) is if you focus on emotion rather than content. Inevitably the irrational person has an uncanny ability to formulate a response that will be exactly as upsetting as they were upset. In doing so they have no regard for truth or content. In doing so, they have no regard for truth or content. They just go straight for whatever emotionally loaded words or statements will cause the rational person an equal amount of upset. The result always being the rational person focuses on the content, becomes confused, upset, and lost.

 

This total focus on irrational content by the rational person is irrational. They don't even see the lack of truth and extent of contortion is exactly calculated to extract a quite specific toll for their actual use of content. It's punishment. I don't even think it has a long-term calculation. It's just immediate punishment.

 

With gaslighting, solipsism, narcissism, manipulation and emotional games, it's not about content, reason, or logic. It's painting emotional pictures with out regard for truth. It's painting emotional pictures that build one person up and tear the other down. You can't defend against that by focusing on content with reason and logic.

 

At first my gut was that your situation was nothing like mine. Then you started using the term narcissism, but it seemed like you were just throwing it around. Yet it seemed like you found it useful. Now you've graduated to conditioned to question yourself as the bad guy (jerk). All while others tell you she's the crazy one. It's clear that she's manipulating you with false narratives. Meanwhile there has been some kind of solipsistic world (false narrative) going on with how things are presented to others. Now there are direct lies and distortions.

 

Then there's the cherry on the top, the quote above rings more true to me than most definitions of gaslighting. Even long winded explanations don't hit the nail on the head as well as you do. In that one quote, what you said is actually a vivid description real thing that destroys people, even people with reason and truth on their side.

 

I think the best part of your quote is that it captures it really well from the perspective of someone experiencing it.

 

- I'm not an attorney or psychologist. I'm stating my opinion from personal experience. Regard it as something you read somewhere on the internet, because that is what it is.

Edited December 30, 2016 by testmeasure

[Mr. Lucky]

I could/should have done everything just the same in this situation, except that I should have totally ignored her when it came to the insults and fighting and whatnot.

 

I wish I had a greater sense you believed your own very sound conclusion.

 

When we separated, I told my ex-wife, in addition to my set custody time, I'd also take our son any other time she wanted. I cared not a whit was she was doing (like your ex, she was probably with her AP), if I was available it was great to spend time with him. I did this knowing it would come with the usual burden of confusing and frustrating interactions with her, it was well worth it to me.

 

I saw it as a win because the goal was time with my kid, glad to pay the price. You'll have made another step forward when you can see it the same way. Under that scenario, driving by her apartment would be a waste of time because you wouldn't care.

 

Hopefully her relentlessly contrarian nature is helping you get to where you need to be. Keep posting, it helps...

 

Mr. Lucky

[The_Onceler]

(1) The rational person communicates specific content.

 

(2) The communication upsets the irrational person.

 

(3) The irrational person responds with an incoherent, contradictory, or obviously false, but quite upsetting response.

 

(4) The rational person is confused, upset and lost.

 

Thanks for your response. I really appreciate that you took the time. The more I read about and discuss this stuff here, the more clear my situation becomes.

 

There are two particular patterns from how my ex and I would argue/fight that have been obvious from the start, even if it was not clear in the moment, and even if I was not then clear on whom to blame them.

 

First was what I coined "arguing down the rabbit hole". An argument would start normally enough, typically when we disagreed about something financial. She might want us to buy something on credit, and I might want us to wait a month until we had money in the budget. While there would be plenty of room to disagree, it seems cut-and-dried enough.

 

However, before long, we'd be fighting about 8 different topics that had NOTHING whatever to do with the original issue. I would struggle to keep track of all the various points of contention that she would be throwing at me. By the end of our relationship, I had actually gone to the extent of having paper and pad in hand so that I could note down all of the various topics that she would raise.

 

This of course infuriated her. And it did seem a bit crazy, even to me. But I was starting to feel that the hailstorm of issues was a tactic, and I figured, crazy or not, if I could sidestep the tactic by literally writing everything down, what harm done?

 

Similarly, we often "argued" via email, and when the same arguments occurred face to face, I would often ask her to indulge me while I called up my email so that I could SHOW her what she had written, particularly when her written words were in direct contradiction to what she was saying to my face.

 

Again, she hated this. And true to form, at the time, I often allowed her to make me feel as if I was somehow in the wrong for wanting to rely on facts and actual written accounts of our thoughts.

 

I see now that, quite to the contrary, she hated these strategies because they were impossible to "gaslight" her way around.

 

 

 

The other recurring theme that she hated was the direct question. When we would be spinning around in a cloud of unrelated arguments, I would attempt to get some clarity by taking a step back, and trying to understand one of the myriad issues. I would attempt to work with her to define a particular issue by asking questions to fully frame the issue. Imagine something akin to an unenjoyable game of 20 questions.

 

Again, she hated this. She would complain that she felt like I was some nefarious attorney attempting to corner her with my questions. I would ask, "Corner you? What corner are you afraid of? I am not attempting to twist your words, I am trying to understand them by asking you direct questions."

 

She would literally refuse to answer.

 

I mean, unless one fears the truth, what is there to fear in answering a simple question? I guess that there could be reasons, but generally, I am always happy to lay out the facts, and let them point the way.

[The_Onceler]

I wish I had a greater sense you believed your own very sound conclusion.

 

Thanks, Mr Lucky.

 

I do believe my conclusion. I guess I retain a measure of skepticism as to whether I will be able to make it work, at least initially.

 

One thing I am very clear on is that, yes, I am always happy for any excuse to have my girls with me. And I don't really care at all what she might be doing, or why she needs me to step in.

 

That said, I do think that is is important for me to be able to discern truth from lies. For instance, in this particular case, she was relying on bald faced lies in order to convince me to subject my girls to a situation that I was uncomfortable with.

 

It is hard enough for me to trust my own judgement. I struggle with granting my own thoughts the same weight and value as the thoughts of others. But then to know that she is willing and able to use total falsehoods in the process of undermining my own conclusions... I need to remain aware of that, and vigilant, I think.

 

In the case of these few days, she demanded that I subject my kids to a situation that I was uncomfortable with, in exchange for doing her a favor and having the kids with me.

 

Yes, I always want them with me, but not necessarily at any cost.

 

And as for this week... it appears that she had time available to take from work, but instead of spending it with our kids, she had me watch the kids, so she could have time with her boyfriend. Again - I hardly care what her reasons are; I am happy to have my girls with me. But I rankle at her lies and manipulations, and had I not driven past her place, I would not have known the full extent of her manipulations.

 

So, while I recognize that my actions in that case were not quite healthy, I still feel that I need these reminders and concrete examples of her duplicitous nature, at least at this stage of things.

 

It seems her time with him ended Wednesday, which coincidentally, was when she had wanted me to deliver them to her for a visit and a dinner date.

 

True to form, she sent me a message later that same evening, asking if the girls were doing OK away from her, or if they needed to visit or call or anything. In point of fact, the girls had been going very well, and had not once mentioned that they missed their mother.

 

I so wanted to point out that she was only then asking about the kids because her visit with her boyfriend was over, but I resisted. Instead, I simply said that the kids seemed to be doing fine.

[BluesPower]

Some insight, maybe...

 

Here are some things that may help you understand her in a way.

 

Essentially, she is an emotionally stunted person. She may act childish, narcissistic, duplicitous on and on.

 

When you were describing her arguing style, this is a symptom of this. People that are emotionally stunted, don't have the emotional IQ to actually know what they are upset about. They cannot get beyond the 1st surface emotion. And they cannot identify what about the situation or situations made them feel the way that they feel.

 

Plus, you add the lying and narcissistic tendencies and basically you don't have a clue what their "issues" are, an neither do they.

 

Trying to argue with this type of person is like nailing Jello to the wall.

[The_Onceler]

Trying to argue with this type of person is like nailing Jello to the wall.

 

This may well be the best characterization of our arguments that I have ever read. Period.

[The_Onceler]

I have the kids with me until Saturday morning. As luck would have it, we got a significant snow storm, so school was cancelled. The result? A crazy, hectic, busy day.

 

I "worked from home" which meant that I spent a few hours in the morning doing some work while my kids whined at me to play with them. I eventually called it a day, and played with the kids and then fed them. Shortly after lunch, the snow let up enough for me to consider shoveling.

 

There was about 12 inches of snow out there. I shoveled for 3 hours while the kids played, then put that aside in order to go in, feed the kids, get them bathed, and put them to bed.

 

Earlier in the day, me ex had sent me a note saying that she wanted to call and talk to the kids. I told her I would try to make that happen, but things were hectic, so no promises. And after all, she dropped them off yesterday, and she will see them all weekend.

 

Anyway, one of my kids was overtired and having a series of meltdowns. The shoveling took WAY longer than expected, and we were behind schedule. I managed to get things under control, get them to finish dinner, got them through a quick bath, and then it was story time and bed.

 

When I had them tucked in, I went downstairs to tidy up the kitchen and get mentally prepared to go back our for more shoveling. It was then I noticed my phone was bleeping at me. It was a series of messages from my ex:

 

"Can I call to talk to the kids"

 

"I'm going to go shovel for a bit. I'd like to talk to them before they go to bed. I will text you when I am done shoveling"

 

"I am taking a break from shoveling, if you are free"

 

"???"

 

"So, what's with the power play? Or perhaps you think it benefits our daughters to keep them from experiencing positive interactions of love and support with their mother? Must be one or the other since you are ignoring my requests to speak with my children"

 

 

 

 

Seriously? It must be one or the other?

 

How about this: I know what she wants, but I just don't prioritize her wants. Sure, if we'd had a leisurely evening with time to spare, I would have been OK with my ex talking with the kids. Why not?

 

On the other hand, I am not going to worry about finding a way to get my kids to take 5 or 10 minutes to talk with her SIMPLY BECAUSE SHE WANTS IT if I am already having a challenging night with the kids. I wasn't ignoring her messages - I simply had not had time to look at my phone at all.

 

And don't get me wrong - if my kids were asking to speak with her, or if they had not seen her for a long stretch, or if for some other reason I felt that it was in their interest to speak with her, I would have made that happen.

 

But none of that was the case. And we have been separated since September - the kids are well used to our 2-2-3 custody schedule. They haven't said a thing to me about missing their mother in months now.

 

So, I responded with only this: Sorry - our evening was hectic and I was unable to set aside time for a call.

 

She responded within 2 minutes with more vitriol. I simply put the phone down and went out to shovel some more. But I thought I would share this whole thing here.

 

Three months ago, I would have engaged her in an argument, and gotten myself all spun up over it all. Instead...

 

 

So, I thank you all for helping me get to this better, more peaceful place. I think I will go read for a bit and then turn in.

 

Good night!

[Mr. Lucky]

Good news all around. The walk got shoveled AND you've found a comfortable balance between co-parenting and living your life. Let it snow...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Whodatdog]

Just got a chance to read this entire thread. OP, you have done a remarkable job with those kids and dealing with crazy.

 

I think your ex-gf thinks she actually has 3 kids, the 2 girls and you. She is trying to micromanage them as well as you.

 

Must be exhausting to be her.

[The_Onceler]

Must be exhausting to be her.

 

You know, once I got some distance and perspective, I came to this same realization - she tries so hard to control everything and everyone and to achieve perfection - it *has* to be exhausting.

 

But, it is also optional for me!

[anna121]

Your response was perfect. Good for you.

[Marc878]

You know, once I got some distance and perspective, I came to this same realization - she tries so hard to control everything and everyone and to achieve perfection - it *has* to be exhausting.

 

But, it is also optional for me!

 

Ha! You're learning.

 

The kids had a great day and probably never gave her a second thought. This is all about her.

 

If you can keep a hard 180 in time she'll be just a distant "bad memory".

[The_Onceler]

Oy. Something must be up with my ex. She is simply not going to be satisfied without a fight, it seems.

 

So, my kids are currently in LOVE with The Imagination Movers. They are the guys from a kids show, and they have a band that actually tours. They are coming to my area in March, so I was planning to bring the kids (the March date happens to fall on one of "my" weekends).

 

About two weeks ago, my ex sent me a note and asked whether I was aware of the show, and if I was planning to bring the kids. She mentioned that she might want to bring them, if I was not planning to. She also mentioned that mutual friends of ours might want to go as well.

 

So, I told her that I was already looking into the show, and was planning to bring the kids. That was the end of that conversation.

 

A few days later, I contacted our mutual friends to see if they were in fact interested. They said they were, so I purchased tickets for all of us.

 

Today, I got this note from my ex: "You know, when I suggested to you that the Jones's (not their names) might like to go see The Imagination Movers it was because I wanted to take the kids, or I thought perhaps we could all go together. It would have been really nice if you could have discusses with me prior to making those plans with my friends."

 

Now, I should point out, "the Jones's" are college friends of hers, who I have gotten to know over the last 15 years or so. Since the time our children were born, we have done COUNTLESS things with these friends - parties, sleepovers, co-vacations, etc. Yes, I only know them because I met them thru my ex, but at this stage of the game, I have my own relationship with them.

 

Anyway, I really could not see any point in engaging her. I mean, what was to discuss? I was taking the kids to a show on my weekend. I found out that mutual friends of our might be interested. I asked them, and they said yes, they were. End of story.

 

However, I was planning to surprise the kids with this, so I responded and asked her to please not tell the kids, if they did not already know.

 

She responded with: "That's all you have to say about it? Typical. I've tried really hard to remain on good terms with you and you seem to be striving to make this co-parenting relationship a bad one. Just want the best interests of our kids, huh?"

 

 

 

WTF?

 

 

 

So, I am being chastised for NOT engaging her in her argument?

 

And how exactly has she "tried really hard to remain on good terms"? What is there to try about? I am civil with her, I pay her the child support amount that we agreed on, I collaborate with her regarding the kids. What about our remaining interactions requires her to try at all? I ask nothing of her at this point. Nothing.

 

And what was I supposed to do? Not take my kids? Not invite our friends? Or was I supposed to suggest that we all - my ex, our kids, and I - go together? I may be wrong about this, but the way I see it, we should not be doing things like this as a "family", i.e. the four of us. She left. We are separated. She has moved on with her boyfriend. I am not ever getting back together with her. Given all of that, it seems to me that spending "family" time in that way would only serve to confuse our kids.

 

So, I cannot fathom discussing the event with her, or the possibility of all going together.

 

The show happens to fall on my weekend, and I know the girls would like to go. So I am going to bring them. I don't see the fault in that logic. And I don't see that I need to involve my ex in that plan in any way. She need not be aware at all.

 

I asked our mutual friends. They accepted. That is between them and myself. If my ex doesn't want me to do stuff with this other family, how is that my problem?

 

 

 

 

I know, I must sound like a broken record. The thing is, I *do* feel badly that both my ex and I cannot both participate in these sorts of things with the kids. But, in my estimation, we cannot. We are no longer a family, or at least, not a traditional one. I now do things with my kids, independent of my ex. That is part of what she asked for when she chose to leave so she could concentrate on her career and on her other relationship. I did not choose that.

 

Sorry - I go on and on. I didn't engage her any further, but I do really struggle with knowing what is just an appropriate detachment, and what might be intentionally antagonistic of me. So, I share these endless instigations with you in order to attempt to get some perspective.

 

So, I say again... thanks!

[Whodatdog]

You handled that exactly right, in my view. She cant have it both ways. She cant leave you for little boyfriend, and then want to play the good mommy with her family too.

 

She made the rules. You are just abiding by them.

[81West]

I don't think you did anything wrong here OP - and I hope you and your kids have a great time at the show!

 

I've read all your posts on the thread and one thing I have observed is that your ex seems nearly completely incapable of meaningful empathy when it comes to understanding how things might feel in your shoes. I'm wondering if that has set up a dynamic where that doesn't happen much at all any more, on either side. While you have a both a right and responsibility to yourself to seek a peaceful life free of unnecessary antagonism and control via your ex, stonewalling/ignoring her too often may ultimately sabotage that larger goal.

 

Combining those two thoughts, I might have texted her something like this rather than simply not acknowledging her "point":

 

Hey Ex, I do understand that it might feel like I kind of took over your plans for the show with the Jones' but that was not at all my intention. I was already looking forward to bringing the girls and thought it was a great idea to go together once I learned they were interested. They of course are my friends too after all these years and it is in the interest of the girls to maintain all the relationships they had before our split regardless of which parent they're with at any given time. I'm sure they'll be excited to tell you about the show. Thanks for helping me keep it a surprise.

 

A lot more words I know! And I understand completely you're weary of all this stuff you didn't choose in your life. But directly ignoring her thoughts/words/feelings will FEEL like a power play, even when it is no such thing. You're not justifying, you're not opening a debate, you're not negotiating- you're just saying "I get it. But this is what I'm going to do. And we can agree to disagree."

[The_Onceler]

While you have a both a right and responsibility to yourself to seek a peaceful life free of unnecessary antagonism and control via your ex, stonewalling/ignoring her too often may ultimately sabotage that larger goal.

 

Thanks, 81, for your response. You REALLY captured the essence of my dilemma, better than I was able to convey. You are exactly right. I do not want to antagonize her with my silence. That said, I simply do not trust myself to respond in the manner that you illustrated. In the past, I *feel* as though I tried to communicate in that same manner, yet it turned into a never ending argument. Perhaps I was just not as good at expressing myself as you were here.

 

Also, at the time that she had sent the text, I was in the midst of helping my brother with some home improvements. I might normally have waited to respond to her, both because I was busy, but also in order to collect my thoughts before shooting off my mouth (so to speak).

 

However, since I was worried that she might unknowingly ruin the surprise, I sent her a quick note. Perhaps I will send her a response now, along the lines of what you suggested, to see how that is received...

 

 

Thanks!