Stuck in Limbo

[Cephalopod]

You may be right. Or not.

 

While sitting in a mediation session, it seems hardly worth while to tell her I hate her, when I know that one of the things that she wants is for she and I to have a "good relationship".

 

I hate her, but if I want to dangle the carrot of our potential harmonious relationship, then it does me no good to let that cat out of the bag. Also, it does not facilitate the mediation session.

 

I feel I have voiced my position during mediation, and not been shy. After hearing her initial points and requests, at our second session, I opened by pointing out that she is wanting to relocate all of us for entirely selfish reasons. That relocating is bad for the kids, bad for me, bad for my career (which is bad for the kids by extension), and even bad for her (she will be farther from her own job and her own family). It serves only one purpose: to facilitate her relationship with her new man.

 

And I pointed out that, statistically, her new relationship has less than 50% chance of working out.

 

The mediator agreed with me and backed me on all my points, essentially, but it matters not. My ex is fundamentally selfish, AND she is going through a mid-life crisis, and she will not shrink from what she wants.

 

So, as I noted above, I either mediate and agree to move to a new town with good schools for the kids, and close enough to my job to allow me to effectively parent, or I risk court, where either we stay where we are, or she forces me to move to a terrible (for me) new location.

 

I guess I could get a third opinion, but the two attorneys with whom I have spoken both said the same thing: the courts favor mothers, and at best, it will be a crap shoot in court.

 

Yay.

 

You don't need to tell her you hate her. What you can tell her is that because of what she did to you and her family, and because of her lack of remorse, there will never be any semblance of friendship between the two of you. You are willing to work with her to be effective co-parents, but as for any future good will or friendship? No. Once your kids are grown and past 18, she will be a non-entity in your life.

 

You can tell her that you refuse to take responsibility for her poor choices. You can refuse to be her public punching bag. If she want to trash your reputation, you will do everything in your power to set the record straight and tell people what really happened between the two of you.

 

You can tell her you have no qualms about spreading the gospel of how she cheated on your marriage, pissed on your vows to each other, and tore her children's' sense of home and security away from them, and helped to destroy another marriage and family.

 

You can say these things to her without being threatening or rude.

[flashed]

Being a stay at home mom is her priority. In order to maintain that she will need to move to her next financial supporter. Good on him for taking her off your hands. I also had to live with my ex before she felt "stable" enough to up and move with the new sucker. Also, 40 miles away is nothing. I say that because my ex moved 6 hours away with mine. I still manage to see my kids and call them weekly. I have a close bond wih my kids and cordial relationship with the ex.

 

There is light at the end of the tunnel. Once the dust settles and your new way of life stabilizes you'll come to see this. Stay the course and refrain from participating in any and all unnecessary drama.

 

And finally, consider if you are done having unexpected pregnancies. You will close doors with some women if you shut the valve, but it WILL simplify your life. I've never regretted it for a second.

[Zip Silver]

Being a stay at home mom is her priority. In order to maintain that she will need to move to her next financial supporter. Good on him for taking her off your hands. I also had to live with my ex before she felt "stable" enough to up and move with the new sucker. Also, 40 miles away is nothing. I say that because my ex moved 6 hours away with mine. I still manage to see my kids and call them weekly. I have a close bond wih my kids and cordial relationship with the ex.

 

There is light at the end of the tunnel. Once the dust settles and your new way of life stabilizes you'll come to see this. Stay the course and refrain from participating in any and all unnecessary drama.

 

And finally, consider if you are done having unexpected pregnancies. You will close doors with some women if you shut the valve, but it WILL simplify your life. I've never regretted it for a second.

 

The OP's ex is no longer a SAHM, she has a career now.

 

The_Onceler, I just read your thread from start to finish and wanted to express my respect for how well you've dealt with such an awful blow to your life. You've remained calm and reasonable for the most part, at times when most people would have struggled not to go nuclear. I know you've contemplated whether you would be better off alone due to family dynamics, but from where I'm sitting you sound like a fantastic father who has the qualities to be an excellent partner to the right woman.

 

I wish you luck. If I ever go through something similar I hope to be able to handle myself with half as much dignity and strength as you've shown. Your ex is a lucky woman to be dealing with you in all of this, not that she deserves it.

 

As the child of divorce let me tell you: your kids will grow up and they will remember each and every time you put their needs first, refrained from being nasty about their Mom, and fought to remain a close presence in their lives. And the fact that their Mom left for another man will come out someday. As hard as all of this is, you're setting yourself up for a lifelong close relationship with those girls.

[anna121]

There's no guarantee that signing an agreement to keep the kids anywhere will stop her if in the future she determines that the status quo no longer works. Given her past behaviour and total self-absorption, I really wouldn't put much stock in that. So, if she changed her mind, you'd likely be looking at a coin toss court proceeding anyway.

 

I'd continue to work the mediation angle, and really push your children's unhappiness. Can you get independent counsellors to testify to their current wishes?

 

I dunno. In this case, I might risk court.

[Whodatdog]

At this point, I might risk court too. Whats the worse that could happen?

 

Whats the best that could happen?

 

Hopefully something would happen that would put the kids needs first.

[Jersey born raised]

Wait a second, the mediator agreed with you. If it goes to court wil his statement be useable?

 

The outline you provide is exactly what a court looks for in determining custody, your stable she is not.

[aileD]

If you go the lawyer route, who pays for her lawyer?

[The_Onceler]

You don't need to tell her you hate her. What you can tell her is that because of what she did to you and her family, and because of her lack of remorse, there will never be any semblance of friendship between the two of you. You are willing to work with her to be effective co-parents, but as for any future good will or friendship? No. Once your kids are grown and past 18, she will be a non-entity in your life.

 

You can tell her that you refuse to take responsibility for her poor choices. You can refuse to be her public punching bag. If she want to trash your reputation, you will do everything in your power to set the record straight and tell people what really happened between the two of you.

 

You can tell her you have no qualms about spreading the gospel of how she cheated on your marriage, pissed on your vows to each other, and tore her children's' sense of home and security away from them, and helped to destroy another marriage and family.

 

You can say these things to her without being threatening or rude.

 

Yes, I could say all of those things. Some of them I have said, but in general, what does it matter? I think she is an absolutely horrible person, but telling her does nothing for me, won't matter to her in the least, and has not impact on reality.

 

The FACT that I think that leads me to avoid her, to refuse her requests for time spent together, and to generally maintain a no-contact approach to her, to the extent that I can.

 

I don't know if I may have spoken in error or been unclear, but so far as I know, she is not out there maligning me or trashing my reputation. Not that it would matter. Its the same thing I tell my kids about teasing - people can say what they want, but just saying a thing does not make it so.

 

I could tell people that my ex was really an 8 foot tall gorilla. It wouldn't make her an 8 foot tall gorilla. I am not perfect, but anyone who knows me and my kids knows that I am a devoted (and fairly good) dad. Anyone who knows my ex knows that she is a basically self-centered woman. But most of her long time friends are similarly self centered, so they see nothing wrong with her actions.

 

My ex does not seem to understand that people respond to how they are treated. She has wondered aloud why she and I cannot be friends at this stage of the game. It doesn't seem to occur to her that she and I cannot be friends precisely because of shenanigans like this relocation business.

 

She and I had moved to our new town with the stated intention of living as a family and raising our kids here for the next 10 or 15 years at least. Within 6 months, she was in contact with an old boyfriend, having an inappropriate relationship with him online. Within 12 months she had moved out and was involved with him again.

 

Now she wants to force me to sell my house, relocate my kids, and move FURTHER from my job.

 

And she fails to see any of those behaviors as contributing to my dislike of her. So, if I express my opinion of her, not only will it not matter to her, but she will believe that I am just acting irrationally. Whenever there is any friction between us, rather than even consider that perhaps I am rightfully angry about the matter at hand, she accuses me of merely being a spiteful person.

 

It seems to me that, after all that she has done in the last year or so, one hardly needs be a spiteful person to be angry with her.

[The_Onceler]

Being a stay at home mom is her priority. In order to maintain that she will need to move to her next financial supporter. Good on him for taking her off your hands. I also had to live with my ex before she felt "stable" enough to up and move with the new sucker. Also, 40 miles away is nothing. I say that because my ex moved 6 hours away with mine. I still manage to see my kids and call them weekly. I have a close bond wih my kids and cordial relationship with the ex.

 

There is light at the end of the tunnel. Once the dust settles and your new way of life stabilizes you'll come to see this. Stay the course and refrain from participating in any and all unnecessary drama.

 

And finally, consider if you are done having unexpected pregnancies. You will close doors with some women if you shut the valve, but it WILL simplify your life. I've never regretted it for a second.

 

She *had* been a SAHM for about the first 5 years after our older daughter was born. She gradually worked herself back into the workforce, and she is now embarking on a new career (or a revitalization of an old career).

 

Here is my situation, in the most basic terms. I love my kids. I have 50% physical custody of them. I would love to have 100% physical custody, but that is not in the cards. I like my job well enough, but primarily, I value my job because it affords me financial stability. If I can remain with this company for the next 5 or 10 years (I was at my last employer for 7), I will be in a very good position to support my kids if they decide they want to go to college.

 

But, it is a demanding and stressful job. And the commute is long. This means that I have to work really hard in order to be available and present for my girls. Were I a bachelor, I would hardly care about a longer commute. But now, every minute I spend in the car is a minute that I am not available to cook dinner, or help with homework, or play in the yard.

 

If I have to spend an extra 40 minutes in the car each and every day, I have to steal those 40 minutes from somewhere - from my time with my kids, from sleep, from my limited personal time.

 

And she intends to make me pay that cost so that she can live closer to her new guy.

 

 

But, when I can put my anger and indignation aside, I agree with you: it will probably be OK in the end. We can move to a new town, the kids will adjust, and so will I.

 

 

Oh, and I have no intention of fathering again. I have not had a vasectomy, but at this stage of the game, that is not a concern. I have neither time nor desire to embark on anything new. I will surely "take steps" before I get back out into the dating pool.

[The_Onceler]

There's no guarantee that signing an agreement to keep the kids anywhere will stop her if in the future she determines that the status quo no longer works. Given her past behaviour and total self-absorption, I really wouldn't put much stock in that. So, if she changed her mind, you'd likely be looking at a coin toss court proceeding anyway.

 

I'd continue to work the mediation angle, and really push your children's unhappiness. Can you get independent counsellors to testify to their current wishes?

 

I dunno. In this case, I might risk court.

 

I can say with assurance that no amount of rational discussion will dissuade her from her course. She wants what she wants, and she will only hear those things that help make that a reality.

 

It does horrify me to think that, for the next decade or so, I am to some extent always going to live with the threat of such actions from her. She can decide whatever she wants for herself, and the best I can do to shield my kids and myself from the impact is to pay the cost of a legal battle and then hope for a favorable judge.

 

That sucks.

 

But what else can I do? I could fight her now, but would the resulting decree be any more binding than an agreement reached through mediation? I would imagine not.

 

So, no matter whether we fight or mediate, at the end, we will have a parenting plan. That agreement will either be a strong assurance of stability, or it will not, regardless of how we arrive at that end point.

 

If I fight and win, then I maintain the status quo. If I fight and lose, then I have to sell my house, move, and likely find a new job.

 

If I compromise though mediation, then I can likely get her to agree to a location that I can adjust to. She seems willing to consider a locale that is not too much further from my job, and that puts me closer to family. My hope is, if I have difficulties, I can lean on family to take up the slack. My mother and siblings have already expressed the same thought to me.

 

Given that it seems that my ex is more likely to win in a legal fight than I am, I am disinclined to risk the downside. I might rather relocate my kids this one additional time, and then live with some level of assurance that we can have a stable life for the next 10 years or so.

 

I have my own attorney, but she is out of contact on vacation, so I have not discussed this idea with her, but I will upon her return.

[The_Onceler]

At this point, I might risk court too. Whats the worse that could happen?

 

Whats the best that could happen?

 

Hopefully something would happen that would put the kids needs first.

 

I see three paths:

 

(1) Litigate and win.

(2) Litigate and lose.

(3) Compromise through mediation.

 

Whichever path, the result will be some legal decree that formalizes our parenting plan. She and I agree on most every aspect of that, except for this one issue of this one-time relocation (so she claims). So, she is willing to go on record and agree to not relocate again. Whatever weight that will carry legally, it will be the same weight regardless of which path we take.

 

Whats the best and worst that can happen?

 

(1) Litigate and win: this is the best. I don't have to relocate my kids again, and they can remain in an excellent school system. I can continue to manage my job as I have been.

 

(2) Litigate and lose: this is the worst. The kids have to start over in new schools. They will move to a lesser school system. I will either have to find a new job, or have less time to spend with my kids due to the additional distances. We will be in a new town that is not meaningfully closer to my family.

 

(3) Mediate: this is in the middle. We move to a new town with good schools, but the kids still have to endure the relocation. I will likely be able to maintain my current job, and still be nearly as available to my kids as I am now. I will be in the same town with my brother, and in the town adjacent to another brother and my mother.

 

 

I have the sense that if I fight, I am more likely to lose than to win.

 

In fact, as luck would have it, I was talking just two days ago with a new coworker. We started out making small talk, but quickly found ourselves comparing "divorce" notes. He is recently divorced, and he fought it out in court. His wife wanted to move across state lines, and take the kids 400 miles away from their marital home.

 

Now, I only know the bits that he shared, but I know the outcome: the kids and their mother moved 400 miles away. He sees them one weekend a month, and half of the summer.

 

Such a decision seems wildly, outrageously unfair to me. How could any rational person (judge) agree that one parent can simply withdraw the children from the life of the other parent?

 

The mere fact that such a thing could happen at all gives me pause when I consider fighting her on this.

 

She complained to me at one point that I was preventing her from moving on with her life and finding happiness. I pointed out - I was not preventing her from anything. Our situation constrains the both of us. If I had cause to want to move to Alaska, I would know that I could not reasonably do so. I could not reasonably expect that another adult (my ex) would be willing to uproot themselves and their kids merely to allow me to relocate.

 

I see our situation as mutually constraining. And she does too, to the extent that she has stated a desire to raise the kids in one town, and in one school system, throughout their school age years.

 

She just has this one caveat, or so she says. I think she believes it, too, though I am not sure that matters.

[The_Onceler]

Wait a second, the mediator agreed with you. If it goes to court wil his statement be useable?

 

The outline you provide is exactly what a court looks for in determining custody, your stable she is not.

 

For what it is worth, THAT aspect of mediation has been great.

 

In the past, when she and I would argue, things would spiral out of control. We just argued and got mad, but nothing ever got resolved. I used to feel that she was intentionally sabotaging our discussions and arguments, but of course, she put forth a different interpretation.

 

So, it was quite nice to have a 3rd party present, as a sanity check.

 

At one point, we were going back and forth, and the discussion was not going the way she had hoped. In what seemed a statement out of the clear blue sky, she interrupted me to accuse me of dragging up old issues. She stated that she refused to engage me if I was going to muddy the waters like that.

 

I had no idea what she was talking about, and began to get angry at this new, meta-level argument.

 

But as I sat in silence, trying to absorb what she had claimed, and trying to recall if I had in fact dragged up some old wound, the mediator chimed in. She was attempting to talk us down, and to reset the discussion, but she also pointed out that she had not heard me insert any issue into the conversation other than the matter at hand.

 

She asked my ex, what specifically I had said that she felt was an old issue, and was not relevant. My ex had no answer.

 

In another instance, my ex suddenly asked me, "What if you had the kids all week, and I had them on the weekends?"

 

We hadn't been talking about modifying our custody schedule, but my immediate thought was, I wouldn't want to NEVER have weekends with the kids.

 

That exchange happened at the end of our session.

 

A few days later, just ahead of our next session, my ex sent me an email where she expressed just how upset she was that I seemed to willing and prepared to allow her to recede from the lives of our kids.

 

Again, I was baffled. Changing our custody arrangement had been her idea, not mine. I told her I wanted to table the conversation until our next session.

 

We did so, and again, the mediator expressed that I had never advocated for any such thing, and that instead, it had been my ex who suggested the potential for changing our custody arrangement.

 

My ex responded by saying that her expectation was that she would suggest that she might reduce her time with the kids, and I was supposed to say, "No, please don't do THAT - the girls need you to be present in their lives!"

 

Now, to be honest, that was my thinking, once I had a chance to process. I even confided in my sister that it made me tremendously sad to think of how that would appear to the kids. What would it do to them if they perceived that their mother was deciding to see less of them?

 

Finally, the mediator was at one point recapping what we had discussed, and what our positions were. She said, "[The dad] wants to keep the kids in the same town and avoid relocating them again. [The mom] wants to prioritize her own needs ahead of the dad and kids and relocate to a new town."

 

My ex bristled upon hearing that, but the mediator insisted, saying "Look, I am not judging you, but objectively, in this instance you are prioritizing your own wants ahead of all else."

 

I wanted to jump up and cheer.

 

But, again, it mattered not. My ex did not budge one inch on her position. She is happy to hear the words of a seasoned mediation professional and discount them immediately, if they do not suit her needs.

[The_Onceler]

If you go the lawyer route, who pays for her lawyer?

 

I don't know how that works.

 

We are currently splitting the cost of mediation, 50/50. My ex started to suggest that I pay more, but I shot that down, and she let it go. In my view, we are only in mediation because of her ridiculous demands.

 

I mean, if I have to sell my house, will she reimburse me for half of my losses?

 

But I have seen in divorce cases where the husband winds up paying for the legal fees of both parties. Since she and I were never married, and all we are litigating is our parenting agreement, I am not sure that she would have grounds to sue for legal costs.

 

But, I don't really know.

[The_Onceler]

The OP's ex is no longer a SAHM, she has a career now.

 

The_Onceler, I just read your thread from start to finish and wanted to express my respect for how well you've dealt with such an awful blow to your life. You've remained calm and reasonable for the most part, at times when most people would have struggled not to go nuclear. I know you've contemplated whether you would be better off alone due to family dynamics, but from where I'm sitting you sound like a fantastic father who has the qualities to be an excellent partner to the right woman.

 

I wish you luck. If I ever go through something similar I hope to be able to handle myself with half as much dignity and strength as you've shown. Your ex is a lucky woman to be dealing with you in all of this, not that she deserves it.

 

As the child of divorce let me tell you: your kids will grow up and they will remember each and every time you put their needs first, refrained from being nasty about their Mom, and fought to remain a close presence in their lives. And the fact that their Mom left for another man will come out someday. As hard as all of this is, you're setting yourself up for a lifelong close relationship with those girls.

 

Thank you so much for your kind words. This process is isolating and undermines your self worth - so hearing positive feedback really means the world to me. Thanks!

 

Also, wow! You read the whole thing? You must have the patience of a saint!

 

I read somewhere that kids instinctively understand that they are equal parts their mother and their father. As such, maligning your ex is maligning the kids, and that is how they would hear it. I try to be respectful in general, but after considering their view of things, I have been very careful to always speak well of their mother, and to be supportive of their relationship with her.

 

I am also a child of divorce, as is my ex. That is one of the things that most perplexes me. In order to meet her needs now, my ex is rationalizing the very sorts of things that scarred her so badly as a child.

 

It baffles me.

 

I do try to put my kids first in my thinking, whatever I do. Just today, for instance... I have the luxury of working from home from time to time, so I did so today. I woke at 4:00 AM to start working, but as a result, was able to step out and visit my youngest daughter at school. She and I had lunch together, and then I went back with her to her classroom, where she and I got to read to her class.

 

When we were done, she turned and gave me a tremendous hug. We hug a lot, but I was still caught off by it, there in the classroom.

 

It was fantastic.

[Zip Silver]

Yeah I read it all... often the threads here understandably devolve into bitterness and tit for tat but the way you express yourself and the manner in which things have unfolded gave me cause to sit and keep reading for some reason!

 

That sounds like an incredible moment with your daughter. Your determination to do what's best for your kids shines through with each post you make. When my parents divorced they despised one another (and sadly had to live together for five years post divorce... those were tough years as a kid) but one thing I'll never forget is how they always spoke highly of one another to me, and never made me feel guilty for seeing the other. I recall one time when my father had finally moved out and we got into a huge row and I went home crying to my mom expecting her to side with me, but instead of saying a bad thing about my dad she was sad that things had got so bad and said she always wanted me to have a good relationship with him. It takes a lot to act the bigger person with emotions running so high but I am sure your girls will be fine with you looking out for them.

 

One thing that may be too premature to mention but just came to mind... it's gonna be all the harder for you to interact positively with her new boyfriend when the time comes in the future for you to cross paths but if you can stomach acting friendly towards him and being encouraging of the kids when they come to you excitedly talking about things they've done together, you can help avoid a tonne of internal conflict and stress for them. It's really hard for kids to feel like enjoying themselves with one adult means betraying another. I'm an adult and my own parents divorce was through no involvement of anybody else, but I've always valued over the years being able to sit at my dad's dinner table with him and his new wife and share memories of my (late) mom without it being weird. Not all adults are mature enough but it sure makes it easier on the kids.

 

Anyway. Too early for that I think but your ex seems to be speeding up the process with her new boyfriend so the day will come when you have to interact with him and show your girls (through gritted teeth maybe) you're glad they have a new 'friend' and are happy for the times they spend with him and their mom. Have a lovely weekend.