Cohabitating [For most of the marriage I've been less than fulfilled.]

[Ontos]

First Time Posting:confused:

 

So, we've been married 21 years. Have a S19 and a D11.

 

For most of the marriage I've been less than fulfilled. I'm very vocal and communicate (or try to - it is a one way street). My wife internalizes things (her parents did not talk much).

 

I crave much more intimacy and always have. Our sex life is great - but the very weird thing is before and after there is little kissing, hugging or physical touching- other than foreplay and sex. For example very little non-sexual touching and embracing or caressing.

 

I am VERY touchy - and a source of contention has been me playfulling rubbing her rump in passing, etc. She hates this.

 

Also, we do very little outside of raising these kids together. I have a lot of outdoor hobbies - kayaking, hiking, backpacking, boating, mt biking - I LOVE THE OUTDOORS. She never engages in any of these pursuits with me. For example going on the boat or going to see me play soccer (I've been in an adult league for 12 years and she has been to maybe 2 games).

 

She is really into her job and she is a good mother/caregiver. She just doesn't seem to like doing things with me. I admit I'm a very self confident person, but I think this lack of engaging with me and lack of intimacy is negatively affecting me.

 

We have a recurring fight: despite having frequent and fulfilling sex, I want more intimacy. She is just not a warm person (I feel like deep down I've always known this, but thought she would change). I've asked what her languages of love are to perhaps alter how I show her love, thinking this will make her more affectionate. Nope. And I don't want to whine about it b/c that isn't attractive.

 

I've tried acting like I don't care (literally did that for years) and just threw myself into my hobbies. I traveled for my outdoors pursuits, etc and tried to fill the void I have with activities I enjoy.

 

I've tried romance, gifts, doing more around the house to pick up the slack - despite being the breadwinner by x2.

 

But now, I feel like I just cannot go on like this. I've been very pointed lately with my words and how frustrated I am that we do not have a loving marriage.

 

I've read MMSLP, NMMNG (this totally didn't apply to me) and countless articles, etc. Other than us having a drink on the patio while she smokes cigs - we do not really do much together. Many times I'll go have drinks with other couples who are friends of both of ours - and she doesn't come.

 

Any thoughts or comments on what I can try or do? I'm at wits end. I have a lot to offer a loving woman and I don't want to sound entitled, but I deserve a loving wife.

 

Thanks for listening.

[Gloria25]

You've accepted her "as is" for like 21 years now. Why is it an issue now?

[Ontos]

You've accepted her "as is" for like 21 years now. Why is it an issue now?

 

I haven't accepted her "as is", per my post: I've not been happy with things for years and have tried various approaches as well as attempting to have dialogue about what will make us both happier.

 

I just refuse to settle and I guess now that my son is grown and my little girl is growing up fast - I don't want to exist in a cohabitational marriage any longer.

 

Looking around and observing, talking to others it seem like too many people settle for less than happiness and I don't want that for her or me.

[Gloria25]

I haven't accepted her "as is", per my post: I've not been happy with things for years and have tried various approaches as well as attempting to have dialogue about what will make us both happier.

 

I just refuse to settle and I guess now that my son is grown and my little girl is growing up fast - I don't want to exist in a cohabitational marriage any longer.

 

Looking around and observing, talking to others it seem like too many people settle for less than happiness and I don't want that for her or me.

 

Understood....

 

A lot of people put up with stuff for sake of keeping the family together.

 

Well, if her cons mean that much to you then lay down the law. Cuz no way to spend the rest of your years miserable.

 

But beware, people are who they are, she may not want or be able to change and what will you do if she doesn't change? With age it can get harder to date, her other qualities may make these cons a non-issue....and, lastly, even though your kids are up and grown if you break up it may have a ripple affect on the family (especially at get togethers) and everything you two built together.

[snowangel97]

I'm so sorry to hear that you are feeling this way! I applaud your efforts to find ways to reach a more emotional level for your wife and for working so hard on your marriage. I feel all couples have their highs and lows, along with strengths and weaknesses. You obviously love her very much. I read that you've read numerous books and articles on the subject, but have you tried speaking to someone? I've had friends in the past who spoke to both their church pastor and marriage counselors, and it did help their marriage. Would that be something you'd be open to? I'm hear to listen if you want to chat!

[Ontos]

Understood....

 

A lot of people put up with stuff for sake of keeping the family together.

 

Well, if her cons mean that much to you then lay down the law. Cuz no way to spend the rest of your years miserable.

 

But beware, people are who they are, she may not want or be able to change and what will you do if she doesn't change? With age it can get harder to date, her other qualities may make these cons a non-issue....and, lastly, even though your kids are up and grown if you break up it may have a ripple affect on the family (especially at get togethers) and everything you two built together.

 

Lay down the law how!?

 

While I'm concerned about the "ripple affect", I'm also concerned about my kids not witnessing what a loving relationship should be like.

[Ontos]

I'm so sorry to hear that you are feeling this way! I applaud your efforts to find ways to reach a more emotional level for your wife and for working so hard on your marriage. I feel all couples have their highs and lows, along with strengths and weaknesses. You obviously love her very much. I read that you've read numerous books and articles on the subject, but have you tried speaking to someone? I've had friends in the past who spoke to both their church pastor and marriage counselors, and it did help their marriage. Would that be something you'd be open to? I'm hear to listen if you want to chat!

 

We've been to marriage counselors and it helped a little. The reason I discontinued was b/c we would be assigned homework and she would show up a the session without doing it. After this happened a few times I told the therapist it was a waste of money if she wasn't going to do the work.

 

The other day I suggested we see a MC and she said, "That isn't going to work for us".

 

Any ideas? I'm open to any suggestions.

 

Thanks!

[CarrieT]

The other day I suggested we see a MC and she said, "That isn't going to work for us".

 

Any ideas? I'm open to any suggestions.

When she makes comments like, "that isn't going to work for us," do you ask her, "What WILL work for us?"

 

And/Or have you considered divorce at this point? It sounds like you would be much happier single....

[Gloria25]

When she makes comments like, "that isn't going to work for us," do you ask her, "What WILL work for us?"

 

And/Or have you considered divorce at this point? It sounds like you would be much happier single....

 

Laying down the law is calling the meeting to order.

 

Using your example above, why didn't you tell her that you will not live the rest of your in a marriage without x, y, z...and, if she won't take steps with you to work on it (like the counseling), you can't stay married to her....pretty much an ultimatum.

[standtall]

Lay down the law how!?

 

.

 

Actions, not words. Sign up for MC..insist she goes and makes an effort, give it your A game with plenty of warnings that you're unfulfilled etc... if she doesn't compromise, file for divorce. Talk less.

[Mr. Lucky]

I haven't accepted her "as is", per my post: I've not been happy with things for years and have tried various approaches as well as attempting to have dialogue about what will make us both happier.

 

I think what Gloria25 was trying to say is you married her and had two children with her "as is", correct? Doesn't sound like she pulled a bait and switch, I'd guess she's been less than touchy/feely since day one. So it's hard to see how things have reached a tipping point now, especially since your life together seems good in others ways.

 

Is it possible for you to hang in there until your youngest is out of the house?

 

I'd also hope you'd tell me none of this, on your part, is driven by an emotional or physical interaction with a third party ...

 

Mr. Lucky

Edited August 2, 2016 by Mr. Lucky

[Ontos]

When she makes comments like, "that isn't going to work for us," do you ask her, "What WILL work for us?" Yes - she asked me to speak with her career coach. Even though I don't see how this will help, I didn't want to shoot down any attempt. So, I'm going to do this.

 

And/Or have you considered divorce at this point? It sounds like you would be much happier single....

Some background: I actually had one foot out the door back in 2010 - she stepped up her game tremendously! It was great. She was super affectionate and she went on the boat with me, we started running together, etc and then it went right back to the way things are. Typically over the years when I've voiced my unhappiness she has turned on the sweetness, but now she doesn't do that anymore.

 

Laying down the law is calling the meeting to order.

 

Using your example above, why didn't you tell her that you will not live the rest of your in a marriage without x, y, z...and, if she won't take steps with you to work on it (like the counseling), you can't stay married to her....pretty much an ultimatum.

When I reach the end of my rope I do say this. I haven't given an ultimatum yet. That needs to be next. But when I do, I have to stick to it. I don't believe in making idle threats.

 

Actions, not words. Sign up for MC..insist she goes and makes an effort, give it your A game with plenty of warnings that you're unfulfilled etc... if she doesn't compromise, file for divorce. Talk less.

Agreed - I've been talking too much.

 

I think what Gloria25 was trying to say is you married her and had two children with her "as is", correct? Doesn't sound like she pulled a bait and switch, I'd guess she's been less than touchy/feely since day one. So it's hard to see how things have reached a tipping point now, especially since your life together seems good in others ways.

 

Is it possible for you to hang in there until your youngest is out of the house?

 

I'd also hope you'd tell me none of this, on your part, is driven by an emotional or physical interaction with a third party ...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

There definitely was bait and switch. When we dated and the first few years of marriage were great. And NO - no 3rd party. I will not open myself up to that BS. I've told her - I know there is someone else out there that will love me, if you don't cut me loose. I will not find someone else or open myself up without leaving.

[Got it]

What are her interests? You talk about her doing things you like, what about doing things she likes?

 

I think you have to weigh the whole marriage and family structure, looking at the big picture how important is this and is it worth walking away if it can't be met and basically deciding is this a hill worth dying on?

[Mr. Lucky]

Our sex life is great - but the very weird thing is before and after there is little kissing, hugging or physical touching- other than foreplay and sex. For example very little non-sexual touching and embracing or caressing.

 

If you hang around here at all, you'll see the irony in your situation.

 

Plenty of spouses get an abundance of kissing and hugging but little or no sex.

 

They might envy your relationship...

 

Mr. Lucky

[cc_zero]

A small change you can try.

 

Don't ask her if she wants to do things. Like.. hey I'm going to xyz, or my game is tomorrow evening, would you like to come.

 

Say it in a way that is nice but essentially ordering her.

 

Like .. Meet me at my game tonight at 7. .... Make dinner reservations on your own... send her an email during the day that says.. put on a nice dress we are going to blah restaurant at 7. Essentially in any request, do not really give her an option to say no without her having to create an argument out of it.

 

If you can slowly get her to agree to more things, she may begin to enjoy them and you might slowly turn things around.

 

Sounds like you've read a lot of the books so this will probably make sense to you. Just a thought.

[snowangel97]

I agree that actions speak very loud and trying counseling again might be a good plan. Have you tried individual counseling first and then onto marriage counseling? I know Focus on the Family has counselors you can talk to free of charge (855-382-5433). It might be worth giving them a call if you are interested in the counseling route!

[Ontos]

What are her interests? You talk about her doing things you like, what about doing things she likes?

 

I think you have to weigh the whole marriage and family structure, looking at the big picture how important is this and is it worth walking away if it can't be met and basically deciding is this a hill worth dying on?

 

Great question - and she used to run (so that was kinda "our" thing we did) but she doesn't really run anymore. She gets her nails done, spray tan, botox and Yoga. When my daughter is at a sleepover we usually go out to eat somewhere, have a couple drinks and then come home.

 

She is more of a home body than I am, but I've asked her to take a midweek day off and let's go skiing for a day (when we started dating that was what she loved most), but she says she's too busy. She also used to want to hike alot when we dated.

 

I'll make an action item: This week I'll ask her to pick something for us to do, preferably not one of "my hobbies" b/c it's so damn hot out and leave it up to her.

 

Her best friend, the wife of the couple we hang out with the most go to breweries and they invite us often and usually I go b/c she doesn't want to.

[Ontos]

If you hang around here at all, you'll see the irony in your situation.

 

Plenty of spouses get an abundance of kissing and hugging but little or no sex.

 

They might envy your relationship...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Yeah - I'd rather be in my boat, than theirs! Am I being too picky?? It isn't just hugs and kisses I'm missing - but an intimate connection and frankly she seems b1tchy all the time.

[Ontos]

A small change you can try.

 

Don't ask her if she wants to do things. Like.. hey I'm going to xyz, or my game is tomorrow evening, would you like to come.

 

Say it in a way that is nice but essentially ordering her.

 

Like .. Meet me at my game tonight at 7. .... Make dinner reservations on your own... send her an email during the day that says.. put on a nice dress we are going to blah restaurant at 7. Essentially in any request, do not really give her an option to say no without her having to create an argument out of it.

 

If you can slowly get her to agree to more things, she may begin to enjoy them and you might slowly turn things around.

 

Sounds like you've read a lot of the books so this will probably make sense to you. Just a thought.

 

Great idea. I'll give this a shot and report back. Thanks - makes perfect sense.

[Got it]

Great question - and she used to run (so that was kinda "our" thing we did) but she doesn't really run anymore. She gets her nails done, spray tan, botox and Yoga. When my daughter is at a sleepover we usually go out to eat somewhere, have a couple drinks and then come home.

 

She is more of a home body than I am, but I've asked her to take a midweek day off and let's go skiing for a day (when we started dating that was what she loved most), but she says she's too busy. She also used to want to hike alot when we dated.

 

I'll make an action item: This week I'll ask her to pick something for us to do, preferably not one of "my hobbies" b/c it's so damn hot out and leave it up to her.

 

Her best friend, the wife of the couple we hang out with the most go to breweries and they invite us often and usually I go b/c she doesn't want to.

 

So maybe do yoga with her?

 

Or you two can do something completely new. There was a study that showed that couples that did things that caused a rush of adrenaline actually fueled their attraction for each other than those that don't. So an idea to go zip lining or sky diving!

 

I know with my first marriage I had a similar issue where we just lived separate lives and I couldn't get him to do more. I finally realized that he was who he was, I was who I was, and who was I to try and make him change or fit a square peg in a round hole. So we divorced with no animosity and are really good friends today. In fact our families hang out together since we now both have young kids.

[NTV]

I know people are shooting out ideas that you can try, but I noticed a couple things... her hobbies tend to be things centered around her appearance. does that statement feel right?

 

 

As a side note, if you came here looking for some sort of permission to divorce her, you don't need it. Nobody can tell you if you should get a divorce or not. In fact the best advice I ever got on the topic went something like...

 

 

'when should I divorce?'

 

 

'when the desire not to see your spouse everyday outweighs your desire to see your kids everyday.'

 

 

...don't know if that'll necessarily help you here.

 

 

My thoughts on it would be to start being more manipulative in your use of shame, reverse psychology, and tactlessness.

 

 

Examples as follows:

 

 

shame:

leave a sticky note on her side of the bathroom mirror 'great mom, lousy wife'

'that's the best kiss you can give me? you can keep it next time. I thought you were a better kisser.'

 

 

 

 

reverse psychology:

'hey, you don't want to go see movie x, do you?' and if she says 'no', just nod your head and say 'good'. or really acting like you don't want her to go places... 'I heard it's supposed to rain on Sat, so you're staying home with the kids instead of coming to my soccer game, right?'

 

 

 

 

tactlessness:

[just got home and she says hey and walks by] 'hey honey, I was wondering... how far up your rear is that stick?'

'what?! what are you talking about?'

'too far to be interested in a welcome home hug. heh heh heh.'

 

 

 

 

You mention a lot of things that you've tried, but I'm willing to bet based on the way you wrote your post that you're not used to working on the psychological warfare level much. Doing it that way may surprise her so much that she's doing what you want without even realizing the change--because she didn't expect it.

 

 

Not saying this is the best idea. I'm just I guess saying that it sounds like you're thinking about divorce as a solution, and if you know that's something that really might be coming, why not play some fun mind games first? You might even win... although she could be better at it than you... but if that's true, then by playing you'll realize what's really been going on this whole time.

 

 

Good luck

[Ontos]

I know people are shooting out ideas that you can try, but I noticed a couple things... her hobbies tend to be things centered around her appearance. does that statement feel right? YES

 

 

As a side note, if you came here looking for some sort of permission to divorce her, you don't need it. Nobody can tell you if you should get a divorce or not. In fact the best advice I ever got on the topic went something like...

 

 

'when should I divorce?'

 

 

'when the desire not to see your spouse everyday outweighs your desire to see your kids everyday.' Now, that is a profound statement and applies to me

 

...don't know if that'll necessarily help you here.

 

 

My thoughts on it would be to start being more manipulative in your use of shame, reverse psychology, and tactlessness.

 

 

Examples as follows:

 

 

shame:

leave a sticky note on her side of the bathroom mirror 'great mom, lousy wife'

'that's the best kiss you can give me? you can keep it next time. I thought you were a better kisser.'

 

 

 

 

reverse psychology:

'hey, you don't want to go see movie x, do you?' and if she says 'no', just nod your head and say 'good'. or really acting like you don't want her to go places... 'I heard it's supposed to rain on Sat, so you're staying home with the kids instead of coming to my soccer game, right?'

 

 

 

 

tactlessness:

[just got home and she says hey and walks by] 'hey honey, I was wondering... how far up your rear is that stick?'

'what?! what are you talking about?'

'too far to be interested in a welcome home hug. heh heh heh.'

 

 

 

 

You mention a lot of things that you've tried, but I'm willing to bet based on the way you wrote your post that you're not used to working on the psychological warfare level much. Doing it that way may surprise her so much that she's doing what you want without even realizing the change--because she didn't expect it.

 

 

Not saying this is the best idea. I'm just I guess saying that it sounds like you're thinking about divorce as a solution, and if you know that's something that really might be coming, why not play some fun mind games first? You might even win... although she could be better at it than you... but if that's true, then by playing you'll realize what's really been going on this whole time.

 

 

Good luck

 

I've tried sarcasm and being snide and told her point blank: you are a great mother and horrible wife. She just ignores it and walks around like I said nothing. She is the queen of just acting like nothing happened.

[Just a Guy]

Hi Ontos, having read your posts the one thing that stands out clearly is that you two are completely incompatible. It seems when you married your wife and there were no children involved, she was a different person, open to activities with you and with a measure of enthusiasm for things out of the home. Also, she was fully plugged into you as she had no distractions. With the advent of children her focus has shifted to more domestic matters and being a good mother rather than just a good wife. For years now her focus has been on her children and in running a good household, that is, complete domestic focus and interest. In the process she has probably forgotten how to be a wife.

Your best efforts at engaging her have failed because she HSS slipped into a comfortable routine and the longer she lives that life the less motivation she has to break free from the comfort and satisfaction she derives from her existence. You are peripheral to it. A necessary evil if you wish. You bring in the moolah and provide the roof over her head, put food on the table and meet the requirements that the man of the house usually is responsible for. In return she provides you the basic sex that you, as a man need but without the frills or the icing on the top, if you will. The fact is that you have tried everything in your arsenal, to prod her to become more wifely but she continues to adopt the mother's role and the housewifely role as it fits comfortably with her current aspirations and desires. It is like a favourite shoe which feels comfortable on her feet. A wifely role will mean overturning her comfort levels and she will only do that if something life threatening to her accepted way of life crops up.

So you now have to provide that life threatening situation for her if you want things to change. That strategy is to proceed with divorce and have her served without prewarning. You then seperate and let her live on her own while the divorce process goes on. If you find that she is able to change radically to accommodate your requirements and only when you are convinced that these changes are more or less permanent, should you call off the proceedings. You can always tell your lawyer to go slow so as to allow her time to absorb the gravity of the situation. If this radical step fails to motivate her to change then you have your answer. She is beyond redemption and you have to move forward with your life. If she does change then you can withdraw the divorce proceedings and resume a happy life with her. My only concern would be " Is she having an affair on the side because of which she has lost all affection for you and therefore her current behaviour". The soulless sex is just a way to keep you interested and tied down. This maybe conjecture and you would know better but all this is a suggestion for you to take matters in your hands to get things moving. If you don't change anything nothing will change. Warm wishes!

[lucy_in_disguise]

I don't know... I'm not saying you should be unhappy for the rest of your life, but it sounds like there are a lot of positive aspects to your relationship. She is a good mother, there is no infidelity, no emotional/ verbal abuse, you are still having good sex, and it sounds like you do go out, if not as much as you'd like. That doesn't sound like cohabitation, it sounds like a normal marriage. Given that you have 2 kids and she has a demanding job, I'm not sure how much more attention you can realistically expect from her.

 

If it is intimacy you are missing, I agree with other posters that you may need to step the game up on your end, and try to engage with her via her interests. Going to yoga together is a good idea. You could also plan some hikes for the family- get the snacks together, pack the bags- surely she'll come if you make it easy for her. I know in an ideal world the initiative would come from her, but given that you are the one who feels there is a problem, I think some small steps on your end could help get the desired outcome.

 

Another suggestion is to try being more grateful for a few weeks. Every morning, think of one thing about your wife you are grateful for, and say it out loud to yourself. I think approaching this from a more positive perspective- where you want to improve your marriage, rather than deliberate divorce- can help you be more effective at influencing change.

 

Expecting her to take an impromptu day off to go skiing- sounds romantic, but realistically, most people have jobs where thats not an option.

 

If she isn't interested in marriage counseling, maybe individual counseling could help. A good counselor can help you realize if your expectations are unrealistic, and give you tips to improve your relationship. I don't agree with the posters advocating divorce. Your relationship sounds much better than most people who post here, and I think some small changes can make it even stronger.

Edited August 8, 2016 by lucy_in_disguise

[Gr8fuln2020]

I think what Gloria25 was trying to say is you married her and had two children with her "as is", correct? Doesn't sound like she pulled a bait and switch, I'd guess she's been less than touchy/feely since day one. So it's hard to see how things have reached a tipping point now, especially since your life together seems good in others ways.

 

Is it possible for you to hang in there until your youngest is out of the house?

 

I'd also hope you'd tell me none of this, on your part, is driven by an emotional or physical interaction with a third party ...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

I like this. My immediate thought was that, after all this time, why the HEAVY desire to no longer tolerate less than happiness. Why now? Do you have someone else you are interested in? Is it mid-life crisis of a sort and now feel, considering your children are older now, you need to go outside of the marriage or leave it so you can find something else?

 

My suggestion is simple. Let your wife know that you are no longer satisfied and that you want to leave the relationship unless things change.