It's not that complicated for guys. Don't listen to false hope from women

[offwithhishead]

I am a guy. I am 33 years old. I am Asian but that may or may not be a factor.

 

All the advice that guys seek in this forum about woman's intention. I feel like we've lost a lot of common sense.

 

I just want to bring up this simple analogy. Have you ever had an experience in your life in which a woman was interested in you? It doesn't matter how fat or ugly or how unattractive she was. She was interested in you for whatever reason. Do you remember how direct she was about it?

 

Well the same principle works with pretty girls. If that pretty girl you're interested in felt the same way, she would find some way to let you know. You see, girls, especially pretty girls, have no idea about the nuances about "faking interest" or any of the stupid games we guys play with girls we're interested in. When a girl is interested in a guy, she'll be very straightforward. That's especially prevalent in this day and age where girls on average are more independent financially and better educated than most men. She will LET YOU KNOW SOMEHOW.

 

So if you're getting any type of "resistance" from that pretty girl you're interested in, chances are that she's just not interested. She may appear to be on the fence and you may hold out hope but most girls when they're attracted to a guy, there is little to no hesitation on her part.

 

It works very much like you. If you're interested in a girl, there's very little hesitation on your part. I'm sure no matter how fat or ugly or short you are, at some point in your life, you've had a girl who was into you. Do you remember how she acted? How easy it was to get her? How easy it was to get her into your bed and have sex with her? It's not any different with pretty/hot girls. It's just that you're not on their level and they're not attracted to you so you're encountering resistance.

 

I can promise you that if you were an attractive guy, you'd lay those pretty/hot girls just as easily as you lay those unattractive girls in your life.

 

It's as simple as that. I don't know why this forum tries to complicate things by trying to give some false hope. Sure there are exceptions that apply to 1% but not to the majority. But the internet and the media has a way of giving you false hope by giving you examples of the exception, hence that 1%.

 

It doesn't work that way. Please use your common sense.

 

If a girl likes you, then she likes you and she will let you know. If she isn't, then she just isn't and you should just move on. Even if it means moving onto a lonely life while watching her get ravaged by some douchebag.

 

That's just how the world works. It sucks. But don't over complicate things. That is all.

[Nowty V]

That's just how the world works. It sucks. But don't over complicate things. That is all.

 

That may be how your world works.

 

However, you can not speculate on the actions of another, your generalising is OTT, you pose a hypothesis but it is just your opinion. Where did you get your statistics?

 

Beauty, after all, is in the eye of the beholder.

[LookAtThisPOst]

That may be how your world works.

 

However, you can not speculate on the actions of another, your generalising is OTT, you pose a hypothesis but it is just your opinion. Where did you get your statistics?

 

Beauty, after all, is in the eye of the beholder.

 

Yep, can't generalize.

 

What's with this "She'll let you know"?

 

Meaning, she'll actually ask the MAN out on a date?

[Dark Horse]

I also would like to say that it's good to not obsess or develop unrequited feelings for somebody. Think about a girl who had a crush on you but you didn't like her back, she probably rarely if ever crosses your mind right? It's the same with a girl who you're completely obsessed about but she doesn't give a sht about you.

 

You can't make somebody like you who really doesn't care about you, at least directly.

[normal person]

For the first time, I agree with you, OP.

 

Yep, can't generalize.

 

What's with this "She'll let you know"?

 

One thing OP didn't expound on is that there will be varying degrees of "letting you know." Women are subtle. They will give clues with body language or small interactions like that. They will stay near you when they don't have to, they will hang out with you when you're not doing anything particularly exciting. This, in many ways, is "letting you know."

 

Some will be very direct and some will merely let you know that they want you to pursue them. Still some will do this and still want to play "hard to get."

 

Look at the whole concept of the Bumble ap. All it does is match people who mutually swipe right on each other, but it prevents men from contacting women first (presumably so women have complete control and don't get any messages from men they don't want to talk to). If you use the ap, all you have to do is match with women, wait for them to show their interest by messaging you (in my experience it's usually something non-aggressive to the effect of "hey!" or "How's your weekend?"). Then you exchange a few messages and then you ask her out (she hopes). That's it. It's a godsend for guys who think sending messages first is hokey and/or calculated.

 

A women's MO is often "get a guy to notice me and have him ask me out" rather than take direct action themselves. Any time a women messages you on OLD, she's essentially inviting you to ask her out. You'll often hear women complain that the guy in bar is cute, "but must not like me" because he isn't coming over. That's often how their mind works in these scenarios: Be noticed, and then wait for the guy to do the rest. You have to look things through that lens. If the girl is putting in 10-20%+ of the legwork it takes to make a date happen with you, it's a pretty good sign that she wants you take the lead and put in the remaining 80-90% to make it happen, which is typically a man's role. She doesn't want to put herself out there too much because it seems desperate.

 

Meaning, she'll actually ask the MAN out on a date?

 

It happens.

[Recon33]

That may be how your world works.

 

However, you can not speculate on the actions of another, your generalising is OTT, you pose a hypothesis but it is just your opinion. Where did you get your statistics?

 

Beauty, after all, is in the eye of the beholder.

 

I'm not really sure how this counters the original post. It may be oversimplified, but the OP's rant does make a lot of sense when you think about how people overanalyze these types of things. If you put yourself out there and a certain person isn't responding to you favorably or loses interest in you then you may as well forget about it and move on and try to find someone else that does. I think people can be too quick to blame themselves sometimes.

[preraph]

I totally agree with the original post. When someone is interested, it's very hard to not know that. But of course, the party receiving the interest may be too fearful to respond to it, and I've seen every excuse in the book trying to blame the woman for that.

 

A pretty blond friend of mine told me many years ago, If they really like you, you will know, and she was right. With guys, you get degrees of interest and disinterest because most would be willing to have sex but aren't otherwise interested, so you get those degrees, and so it does become ambiguous. But with women, they mostly either are interested or they aren't, and probably at least want to see if you're relationship material if they are attracted.

 

I get really impatient (and my apologies) when I see guys posting on here when they're getting the cold shoulder from some woman they've been watching forever and then they choose to believe she's "shy" or insist she'd love them if she would give them a chance. I have to tell you, my whole life I never ran across a woman too shy to act interested in someone if the situation presented itself. Most women are not shy in that regard. If they wanted to show interest, they would be friendly or put themselves in your path to run into you and see if you were confident enough to reciprocate. Guys who keep hoping that's the case, it's because they themselves are fearful, and I think it's kind of a fantasy to find a woman even more fearful - but yet they remain frozen in place and simultaneously hope the woman will sign an affidavit guaranteeing she's interested, even though they are excusing her lack of interest as being shy. And if a really assertive woman were to ever blatantly approach them, I think they'd take off running.

 

We've seen a few instances on this board where some guy obsesses for a long time over someone from afar and then when she finally says something to him, he bites her head off and makes up some scenario that she's acted egregiously when, in fact, he's just doing fight or flight out of his own fear because he's nowhere near ready for a relationship with any woman except the tailored-to-fit ideal woman in his head.

 

All these starers have something in common, and that is that they obsess and do nothing far too long. You can't wear a woman down by just not going away, and hanging around for years won't make one finally be interested in you in just the certain way you are equipped for. And why would you want one who was only luke warm to you? If she's not interested, you'll never have any equity in whatever twisted relationship is born of that, which would usually end up "just friends."

[central]

That's pretty much the truth, OP. If she's interested, she'll respond to you positively. If she's not, she won't. In a very small percentage of situations, she may revise her opinion, but it's rarely worth the effort when there are other women who are more likely to respond a lot sooner. Of course, you can work on yourself to be a better version of you, but don't expect miracles.

[LookAtThisPOst]

For the first time, I agree with you, OP.

 

 

 

One thing OP didn't expound on is that there will be varying degrees of "letting you know." Women are subtle. They will give clues with body language or small interactions like that. They will stay near you when they don't have to, they will hang out with you when you're not doing anything particularly exciting. This, in many ways, is "letting you know."

 

Some will be very direct and some will merely let you know that they want you to pursue them. Still some will do this and still want to play "hard to get."

 

Look at the whole concept of the Bumble ap. All it does is match people who mutually swipe right on each other, but it prevents men from contacting women first (presumably so women have complete control and don't get any messages from men they don't want to talk to). If you use the ap, all you have to do is match with women, wait for them to show their interest by messaging you (in my experience it's usually something non-aggressive to the effect of "hey!" or "How's your weekend?"). Then you exchange a few messages and then you ask her out (she hopes). That's it. It's a godsend for guys who think sending messages first is hokey and/or calculated.

 

A women's MO is often "get a guy to notice me and have him ask me out" rather than take direct action themselves. Any time a women messages you on OLD, she's essentially inviting you to ask her out. You'll often hear women complain that the guy in bar is cute, "but must not like me" because he isn't coming over. That's often how their mind works in these scenarios: Be noticed, and then wait for the guy to do the rest. You have to look things through that lens. If the girl is putting in 10-20%+ of the legwork it takes to make a date happen with you, it's a pretty good sign that she wants you take the lead and put in the remaining 80-90% to make it happen, which is typically a man's role. She doesn't want to put herself out there too much because it seems desperate.

 

 

 

It happens.

 

True. But it's a unicorn chance with most men.

 

Only happened once in my life time, otherwise the women that did go out with me went out with me because I asked them out.

[DrReplyInRhymes]

Those "obvious" signs of interest from a woman who wants to date you,

sometimes aren't so "obvious" to introverts, it may even get misconstrued,

A pretty woman who doesn't give you the time of day, however, I do agree,

Isn't interested all that much and probably counting the seconds until you leave!

[preraph]

Not to pick the bone, but being introvert shouldn't have anything to do with reading signals. If anything, introverts spend a lot of time reading people rather than interacting.

 

There are things which can make some not be good at reading signals, of course, but I think it's mainly inexperience and having not been very social enough to learn social cues.

[basil67]

Those "obvious" signs of interest from a woman who wants to date you,

sometimes aren't so "obvious" to introverts, it may even get misconstrued,

A pretty woman who doesn't give you the time of day, however, I do agree,

Isn't interested all that much and probably counting the seconds until you leave!

 

Preraph beat me to the punch.

 

An introvert doesn't have impaired social skills. They simply need more down time to recover from social interaction.

 

If the introvert can't read other people, then they probably also have some degree of social skill impairment going on.

[Haydn]

Why would anyone fake interest?

 

Or am i being stupid?

[offwithhishead]

 

I get really impatient (and my apologies) when I see guys posting on here when they're getting the cold shoulder from some woman they've been watching forever and then they choose to believe she's "shy" or insist she'd love them if she would give them a chance. I have to tell you, my whole life I never ran across a woman too shy to act interested in someone if the situation presented itself. Most women are not shy in that regard. If they wanted to show interest, they would be friendly or put themselves in your path to run into you and see if you were confident enough to reciprocate. Guys who keep hoping that's the case, it's because they themselves are fearful, and I think it's kind of a fantasy to find a woman even more fearful - but yet they remain frozen in place and simultaneously hope the woman will sign an affidavit guaranteeing she's interested, even though they are excusing her lack of interest as being shy. And if a really assertive woman were to ever blatantly approach them, I think they'd take off running.

 

 

Totally agree with woman not being that shy even if she is a shy person. Women will never really understand the fear of rejection that men have to deal with. Women, particularly attractive women, pretty much have things come to them in their lives and are used to it. So when they want something whether it's a guy or some help, they'll reach out. And it's often amazingly how direct they will reach out when they actually need or want something or someone.

 

In the rare instances of my life where a women has reached out to me whether out of interest or out of need, they will do so very directly. They don't have to learn the subtle maneuvers that guys do such as feigning disinterest and pretending they don't care when they do and stupid crap like that.

 

I also would like to say that it's good to not obsess or develop unrequited feelings for somebody. Think about a girl who had a crush on you but you didn't like her back, she probably rarely if ever crosses your mind right? It's the same with a girl who you're completely obsessed about but she doesn't give a sht about you.

 

You can't make somebody like you who really doesn't care about you, at least directly.

 

Yah it's shocking just how obvious the truth is. A lot of the dating advice out there one the internet is 99% trash as it just gives false hope in order to generate sales and web traffic.

 

Human nature and the way we interact hasn't really changed despite all the technologies. A modern woman today will respond pretty much the same to a guy she likes or dislikes just as a woman in the 18th century did.

 

 

That may be how your world works.

 

Beauty, after all, is in the eye of the beholder.

 

Objective beauty is NOT in the eyes of the beholder. For example, I prefer petite and slim women. But I do NOT deny that busty and taller women are attractive. They are definitely attractive but just not my cup of tea and not my type. But they are undeniably attractive.

 

It's like how a girl might like tall white guys but a tall black guy just won't do it for her. But that tall Black guy is STILL objectively attractive, it's just that she doesn't like Black guys. That's just an example.

 

There are people, both women and women, who are not objectively attractive no matter what.

 

For example, myself. I will NEVER be objectively attractive no matter what the situation. I am a 5'5 short Asian guy with an average face. When girls, no matter of what race see me, I will get tagged with the unattractive label. Maybe, just maybe a girl might end up liking me for my personality and other things but that's only if she tries to get to know me. Otherwise, I'm unattractive. This isn't a pity me thing. It's the truth.

[NewLeaf512]

Totally agree with woman not being that shy even if she is a shy person. Women will never really understand the fear of rejection that men have to deal with. Women, particularly attractive women, pretty much have things come to them in their lives and are used to it. So when they want something whether it's a guy or some help, they'll reach out. And it's often amazingly how direct they will reach out when they actually need or want something or someone.

 

In the rare instances of my life where a women has reached out to me whether out of interest or out of need, they will do so very directly. They don't have to learn the subtle maneuvers that guys do such as feigning disinterest and pretending they don't care when they do and stupid crap like that.

 

 

Yah it's shocking just how obvious the truth is. A lot of the dating advice out there one the internet is 99% trash as it just gives false hope in order to generate sales and web traffic.

 

Human nature and the way we interact hasn't really changed despite all the technologies. A modern woman today will respond pretty much the same to a guy she likes or dislikes just as a woman in the 18th century did.

 

 

 

 

Objective beauty is NOT in the eyes of the beholder. For example, I prefer petite and slim women. But I do NOT deny that busty and taller women are attractive. They are definitely attractive but just not my cup of tea and not my type. But they are undeniably attractive.

 

It's like how a girl might like tall white guys but a tall black guy just won't do it for her. But that tall Black guy is STILL objectively attractive, it's just that she doesn't like Black guys. That's just an example.

 

There are people, both women and women, who are not objectively attractive no matter what.

 

For example, myself. I will NEVER be objectively attractive no matter what the situation. I am a 5'5 short Asian guy with an average face. When girls, no matter of what race see me, I will get tagged with the unattractive label. Maybe, just maybe a girl might end up liking me for my personality and other things but that's only if she tries to get to know me. Otherwise, I'm unattractive. This isn't a pity me thing. It's the truth.

 

This related to the psychological theorem of Preference and Contingent Valuation, as in an individual's attitude and mental ordering related to a set of objects, people or attributes.

 

Subconsciously and consciously every day all day a person makes choices and decisions based on the attractiveness, desire for, and perceived value of a desired outcome.

 

Preference is changeable over time.

 

OP in the original post subtlety refers to the prey drive concept that I think carries some weight. A woman will usually prefer to have a polite, non agressive overture made to her first by someone interested in her. If she is interested she will respond favourably and allow you to know she is interested, if she isn't, she won't. It drives me mad as well to read all these posts of micro examination of a person's behaviour looking for a "sign" of interest. "She blinked 3 times. I think that could have been a wink." No, it wasn't.

[LookAtThisPOst]

This related to the psychological theorem of Preference and Contingent Valuation, as in an individual's attitude and mental ordering related to a set of objects, people or attributes.

 

Subconsciously and consciously every day all day a person makes choices and decisions based on the attractiveness, desire for, and perceived value of a desired outcome.

 

Preference is changeable over time.

 

OP in the original post subtlety refers to the prey drive concept that I think carries some weight. A woman will usually prefer to have a polite, non agressive overture made to her first by someone interested in her. If she is interested she will respond favourably and allow you to know she is interested, if she isn't, she won't. It drives me mad as well to read all these posts of micro examination of a person's behaviour looking for a "sign" of interest. "She blinked 3 times. I think that could have been a wink." No, it wasn't.

 

I do get what you mean and others posters mean, but what of the women that aren't flirts.

 

One woman I know, early 50s...only mention her because that's the most recent I remember as there have been others. I asked her if she flirts if she's interested or even the flirty type.

 

She said even if she's interested in a guy, she doesn't flirt.

 

But I'm saying "Flirting constitutes interest", as it usually DOES indicate interest...otherwise, they are just friendly and cordial...if not even that, they are just cordial or short with you.

 

But I found it unusual for women to admittedly say they don't flirt, even if they like a guy. I guess the guy asks them out, and if they are interested they say "Yes."

 

It's like the interest is generated when the asking out occurs. It's more like, "I talked with him, he seems nice, sure...I'll go out on a date with him."

 

And then see what happens from there.

[LookAtThisPOst]

Also, and this is not uncommon...

 

I have known not only relationships, but marriages to have started when a man was persistent enough with the unrequited.

 

I recall meeting a woman that showed up with her new boyfriend at a party. She said he must've asked her out 4 times before she said "Yes" and viola!

 

They're dating!

 

Usually it was in situations when they saw each other frequently at say a college campus/class, gym or through outings at social circles.

 

He'd make attempts at getting her to go out with him, only to blow him off and such here and there, until finally he , I guess, "charmed" her enough to get her to go out with him.

 

And full relationships HAVE developed from there.

 

I hear women say they actually have not returned 1st phone calls from men, to see if they'll call them again to see if their intentions are genuine.

 

They think if a man gives up too easily, then he's not worth dating and not relationship material if he gives up easily.

 

When I hear these stories, I think to myself, "Man, have I been doing this wrong? Giving up after one voicemail left?" lol

[offwithhishead]

Also, and this is not uncommon...

 

I have known not only relationships, but marriages to have started when a man was persistent enough with the unrequited.

 

I recall meeting a woman that showed up with her new boyfriend at a party. She said he must've asked her out 4 times before she said "Yes" and viola!

 

They're dating!

 

Usually it was in situations when they saw each other frequently at say a college campus/class, gym or through outings at social circles.

 

He'd make attempts at getting her to go out with him, only to blow him off and such here and there, until finally he , I guess, "charmed" her enough to get her to go out with him.

 

And full relationships HAVE developed from there.

 

I hear women say they actually have not returned 1st phone calls from men, to see if they'll call them again to see if their intentions are genuine.

 

They think if a man gives up too easily, then he's not worth dating and not relationship material if he gives up easily.

 

When I hear these stories, I think to myself, "Man, have I been doing this wrong? Giving up after one voicemail left?" lol

 

This is exactly what I'm talking about. They're just "stories" and I'm not saying these stories are lies but maybe what actually happened has been exaggerated? Also, people's memory of certain events change over time and according to the context.

 

Like I said before, think to instances of your life when a girl WAS interested in you. How did she behave? Most likely just one call or text from you was enough. She was very responsive and engaging and enthusiastic even. That's how girls who are interested behave.

 

I don't deny there are girls out there who like to play games but even then, they will be careful not to go too far and push the guy away too far.

[Haydn]

I don`t understand any of this.

 

When i liked a girl (in the past as i am fully taken:)

 

I didn`t fake anything.

 

I just chatted her up with the hope she felt the same way. Because i fancied her.

 

If so, then `quids` in.

 

Same when a girl hit on me.

 

Why so complicated?

[GemmaUK]

I agree totally OP!

 

 

I do get what you mean and others posters mean, but what of the women that aren't flirts.

 

One woman I know, early 50s...only mention her because that's the most recent I remember as there have been others. I asked her if she flirts if she's interested or even the flirty type.

 

She said even if she's interested in a guy, she doesn't flirt.

 

But I'm saying "Flirting constitutes interest", as it usually DOES indicate interest...otherwise, they are just friendly and cordial...if not even that, they are just cordial or short with you.

 

But I found it unusual for women to admittedly say they don't flirt, even if they like a guy. I guess the guy asks them out, and if they are interested they say "Yes."

 

It's like the interest is generated when the asking out occurs. It's more like, "I talked with him, he seems nice, sure...I'll go out on a date with him."

 

And then see what happens from there.

 

LATP, this was one woman. One woman doesn't mean every woman behaves this way.

 

Also, and this is not uncommon...

 

I have known not only relationships, but marriages to have started when a man was persistent enough with the unrequited.

 

I recall meeting a woman that showed up with her new boyfriend at a party. She said he must've asked her out 4 times before she said "Yes" and viola!

 

They're dating!

 

Usually it was in situations when they saw each other frequently at say a college campus/class, gym or through outings at social circles.

 

He'd make attempts at getting her to go out with him, only to blow him off and such here and there, until finally he , I guess, "charmed" her enough to get her to go out with him.

 

And full relationships HAVE developed from there.

 

I hear women say they actually have not returned 1st phone calls from men, to see if they'll call them again to see if their intentions are genuine.

 

They think if a man gives up too easily, then he's not worth dating and not relationship material if he gives up easily.

 

When I hear these stories, I think to myself, "Man, have I been doing this wrong? Giving up after one voicemail left?" lol

 

And this? She wasn't 'averse' to him - just wasn't sure initially. She got to know him more and no doubt she spent more time with him to get to know him before she agreed to that date.

[jen1447]

I think OP's broad-stroking this again (see thread history for context - http://www.loveshack.org/forums/transitioning/search/587787-east-asian-men-why-we-unattractive-updated) and using the general truth of a not-particularly-keen observation ("women will show you if they like you") to disguise a specific grind against the 'unfairness' of dating he believes to exist.

 

There's butthurt here, which is what this is really all about. Women behave much more subtly and variably than any generalization can account for.

[SoThatHappened]

Women behave much more subtly and variably than any generalization can account for.

Thank you!

 

Just wanted to quote this so it's stated again

[preraph]

Totally agree with woman not being that shy even if she is a shy person. Women will never really understand the fear of rejection that men have to deal with. Women, particularly attractive women, pretty much have things come to them in their lives and are used to it. So when they want something whether it's a guy or some help, they'll reach out. And it's often amazingly how direct they will reach out when they actually need or want something or someone.

 

You have to realize, though, that most women do get rejected early on and also get hurt. The first guy I had a crush on in middle school, we were in a play together and I stood by him once backstage and he told me I stunk! It's in those early years that little boys can be so hurtful and most girls have felt it because girls mature easier than boys and will show interest in one only to find out he's still a girl-hating little twit.

 

And very pretty girls have a whole other set of problems, and that is a steady stream of obsessed stalkerish guys, so they also build up defenses and that may well be why some people think all pretty girls are snooty. They can't afford to even smile at someone without getting someone driving by their house uninvited. Just something to consider.

[preraph]

I do get what you mean and others posters mean, but what of the women that aren't flirts.

 

One woman I know, early 50s...only mention her because that's the most recent I remember as there have been others. I asked her if she flirts if she's interested or even the flirty type.

 

She said even if she's interested in a guy, she doesn't flirt.

 

But I'm saying "Flirting constitutes interest", as it usually DOES indicate interest...otherwise, they are just friendly and cordial...if not even that, they are just cordial or short with you.

 

But I found it unusual for women to admittedly say they don't flirt, even if they like a guy. I guess the guy asks them out, and if they are interested they say "Yes."

 

It's like the interest is generated when the asking out occurs. It's more like, "I talked with him, he seems nice, sure...I'll go out on a date with him."

 

And then see what happens from there.

 

Being flirty and not being shy are two different things. The difference being a flirty person is really outgoing and her flirting may not mean anything because she just does it to everyone. An ordinary woman, while maybe not flirtatious, will talk to you or something. If you're waiting for sexual flirting, there's just no need to wait for that to talk to a woman, no reason at all. All that's required to get to know someone is their willingness to talk a bit, not batting of eyelashes or suggestive language or coming on to you. I honestly think some of this perception came from some people watching porn more than having any real life experience.

[LookAtThisPOst]

I honestly think some of this perception came from some people watching porn more than having any real life experience.

 

Funny you mention that. A female single friend of mine told me of a man that she had chatted with online from a dating site long ago, suddenly contacts her after months of no contact. He asked her if she'd like to take a walk with him at a local park and how "we would like to get our sweat on together."

 

She was totally appalled, and declined his offer to go out with him.

 

He backpedaled, "I was just kiddin'" like a little boy.