Abuse in the REAL world, not in your mind.

[DrReplyInRhymes]

Figured this deserved it's own post,

If I could, I'd give the creator a toast!

 

 

What happens when a woman is abused in public, out of context or not?

What happens when a guy is abused in public, nobody gives a second thought!

 

Yeah, discuss!

[Taramere]

My first thought is that the only thing to top the humiliation experienced by a guy being bullied by his girlfriend in the street would be for another woman to come along and try to assist him.

 

I saw a woman yelling at and lashing out at her boyfriend quite recently in broad daylight. They both looked and sounded like drug addicts (having that kind of slow, stupid speech that the perpetually drug addled develop). I gave them pair of them a wide berth. No chance was I getting sucked into that drama. I'd have likely just ended up getting screamed at and possibly physically attacked by the pair of them.

 

If it had been the guy who was being the more aggressive one, I'd have probably called the police. The reason being that if an aggressive guy starts getting physical with a woman he's squabbling with, it's far more likely to result in serious physical injury to the woman than vice versa.

 

If the woman had been holding something she could have used as a weapon, then I'd have called the police....but as it was, the guy didn't look out of his depth in any physical sense. Weak personality no doubt, but there's nothing that an intervention by a stranger or the police can do about that. It would just add to his general sense of humiliation and low self esteem I should think.

 

Out of interest, why are you titling this "abuse in the real world, not in your mind" when it's actually a set up played out by actors? I should think that usually when people are talking about abuse in this section, it refers to issues that are actually going on in their real lives and in the real world.

Edited August 5, 2016 by Taramere

[DrReplyInRhymes]

With respect:

 

That's exactly my point, your thoughts perpetuate the social taboo,

Of a man standing up to a woman, but in doing so, is thought of as a fool,

Because, physically, he's arguably capable of overcoming her but holds in restraint,

While the woman can lash out as she wants, and when confronted, can act like a saint.

 

But when we apply this same logic to a woman who gets sexually harassed,

Where it isn't physical, like above, but rather, emotional and without class,

All of a sudden cops are called, movements are formed, women's rights are talked about,

Yet men are expected to shut up, our rights do not matter, because physically, we'd win the bout?!

 

No, I do not condone hitting and raping women, nor am I a misogynistic old fool,

I simply think it's absolutely hilarious some women hold double standards and think that it's cool,

To ask to be treated equal as a man, but still get privileges in social and government handouts,

But still think men should be quiet about their rights because we don't want to scream and shout.

 

If women want to be treated on equal footing just like a man really would,

The woman in the video should have been arrested and jailed as he could,

While in jail, the man could run off with another woman he had on the down low,

STILL get the kids, get alimony, his rights protected, and a 'better life' in tow!

[xxoo]

If the police were called, the woman pushing the man in the video would be arrested.

 

What do you think is misrepresented in the real world?

[Taramere]

With respect:

 

That's exactly my point, your thoughts perpetuate the social taboo,[

Of a man standing up to a woman, but in doing so, is thought of as a fool,

Because, physically, he's arguably capable of overcoming her but holds in restraint,

While the woman can lash out as she wants, and when confronted, can act like a saint.

 

I feel like I'm in one of those conversations where you know that the other person already has a set dialogue in their head that they intend to stick to, regardless of whether it fits with the responses you give them.

 

I mentioned a couple I passed by recently. My only concern in that situation is "does somebody look as though they're about to get physically hurt?" The two of them (talking again about the situation I witnessed rather than the role played thing in the video you linked) were pretty shouty, though the woman seemed the more aggressive of the two. I got the distinct impression that they were a pair of attention seekers who were more than happy to share the mundane dramas of their sordid lives with anybody and everybody within earshot. The faces of other passers-by reflected what I was thinking. Not amusement, just "my God, what a depressing, annoying and horrible pair. Let's get away from their drama ASAP."

 

It's not incumbent upon for passers by to involve themselves in playing social worker/therapist to dysfunctionals who enjoy playing out their relationship dramas as noisily and publicly as possible. I certainly had better things to do with my time that day (or indeed any day) than to get embroiled in giving the police a lengthy statement about a matter that amounted to nothing more than breach of the peace at best...and I'm sure other passers-by felt the same way.

 

Certainly in my recent real life scenario no passers by looked amused by the woman's antics. Everybody just looked pissed off, disgusted and focused on moving past them as swiftly as possible. Generally, when I've seen women behaving like that in public they've tended to be bottom-of-the-barrel substance abusing types with equally dodgy looking companions rather than having the somewhat middle class/mature studenty appearance of the couple in your video.

[Taramere]

Put a slightly stronger than average woman together with a punier than average man, and the man is likely still significantly stronger than the woman. There's a pretty major strength differential between men and women. My older brother undoubtedly pulled his punches with me back when we were kids, but it was still terrifying - and undoubtedly a great deal worse than anything in that video you linked (which is nothing more than a bit of shouting and shoving around). But again, back then you just tended to take a philosophical approach to being bullied as the younger sibling. Nobody was going to help you out - older siblings bullying younger ones was just an accepted part of 1970s life (my brother grew up to be a decent enough guy who would never tolerate that sort of behaviour between his own kids) so you just fought back/handled the whole thing with as much dignity as you could.

 

I'm not saying that's a great situation, but I do know that given the choice I'd rather have a history that leaves me with a determination to shake off any victim labels other people would like to apply than have whatever history results in a grown man constantly looking for evidence that he's being be victimised by women/society. Especially given my personal experience of the kind of people who are determined to wear the victim label as often as possible. Grown adults generally have a choice about whether or not to remain in a relationship with a person they find abusive. I know there are rare examples where one person is highly dependent on the other, especially if they have serious health problems, and that matters can be further complicated where there are children.

 

But in that video, where it's the woman rather than the man who's the aggressor (I mention that because I know it's the part you want people to focus on) I see an aggressive idiot screeching her head off. I don't know why observers are laughing. I'd just be pissed off about the disturbance of the peace, and I'd also wonder why the guy want to be in a relationship with somebody so dysfunctional. Maybe for the wild sex? I mean, how often do you see stuff on the internet where men are writing about the crazy chick they were involved with - but how great the sex was? I'll be sympathetic up to a point, if a guy I know is in a relationship with somebody who seems to have an abusive personality...but at the end of the day, people have a choice. If somebody is determined to remain in an unpleasant situation because it feeds some emotional need or desire, then there's really not much anybody else can do about that. Playing rescuer to other people's dramas is often a thankless and sometimes extremely unwise choice. People are often more emotionally invested in remaining in the dramas they try to suck others into (as rescuers etc) than they'll let on.

 

If he can't manage to detach himself from the relationship for some psychological reason, then that's something to take to therapy - it's not something a casually involved passer by is going to be able to help him with. The only role for the casual passer by is if it looks as though somebody is in a situation where they're physically incapable of defending themselves against an attacker. Or if the passer by decides they're not happy about the disturbance to the peace and calls the police for that reason.

 

My concerns and sympathies lie more with people who are genuinely vulnerable. For instance, children facing bullying at home or at school - where they've no option but to continue dealing with their abusers. Or disabled people, or those who are elderly, vulnerable and reliant on carers. If you want to talk about abuse in the real world, it would probably be more accurate to start off there.

 

Anyway, that's two posts in a row. More than enough time and energy devoted to something that's just a piece of nonsense. Not even a real scenario - just a made up one with a clear agenda, where you have no way of knowing which observers are actors and which aren't..or (given the potential for editing) what they're reacting to. Note that none of the people in the same shot as the actors are laughing or smiling as a response to witnessing the woman's aggression. They're either glancing disapprovingly, staying out of it, or quickly removing themselves from the scene as you would expect most people to. In very marked contrast to the shots where people are smiling and laughing but where you have know way of really knowing what they're smiling/laughing in response to. Quite a discrepancy there, I would say.

Edited August 6, 2016 by Taramere

[Art_Critic]

Strength and the physical ability to hurt someone has zero to do with whether or not a person is being the victim of domestic violence.

 

As a former victim I can attest that my previous wife in another life was certainly weaker than I but she was the one doing the abusing, breaking the doors, punching me in the face, blocking my exit out of rooms, verbal abuse, throwing things.. full coke cans buzzed at my forehead, closed fist punched in the face while driving a car.. etc etc..

 

There are many more things she did but in all of those cases I was the stronger physically in the relationship but she was the one committing the DV.

 

I was embarrassed as a man to be involved in something like that, I didn't feel I could talk about it to anybody because she self harmed and would use that against me and there were times those times she did self harm she made it sound like I did those, in one of those cases the police were called and I wound up on the wrong end of that situation since she was considered the weaker sex by the officers therefore she was to be believed.

 

I'm glad that is all in my past, it took me years to recover and understand who was in the wrong, I felt I did wrong because that was what she made me believe..

She ticked every box on the domestic violence wheel except for harming/using our pets and animals to control me and I still thought I was the one who was the abuser.

It was a counselor that I was seeing that finally made some break through with me and now that is all in the past...

 

I certainly do feel there are different ways that society views the scenario in the video... but I only feel that way because I lived it at a point in my life.

[Taramere]

Strength and the physical ability to hurt someone has zero to do with whether or not a person is being the victim of domestic violence.

 

As a former victim I can attest that my previous wife in another life was certainly weaker than I but she was the one doing the abusing, breaking the doors, punching me in the face, blocking my exit out of rooms, verbal abuse, throwing things.. full coke cans buzzed at my forehead, closed fist punched in the face while driving a car.. etc etc..

 

I'm sorry you had that to contend with, Art - and I hope my posts here haven't hit too much of a nerve. My issue really is with that video, which strikes me as a pretty cynically engineered one. I say that primarily because the reactions from people not sharing a shot with the actors is so different to the reactions from people in the same shot as them...and that immediately makes me, as a viewer, suspect that I'm being manipulated.

 

When I was in my teens, I definitely found myself attracted to angry bad boys. That's a very powerful driver. Comes from a very basic instinct of going for what seems to be the strongest, most dominant partner. We can't necessarily manage these instincts until we own them, but I think therapy shies away from encouraging ownership of such basic instincts because therapists are too nervous (understandably) that their clients might regard it as victim blaming.

 

I believe that helps screw people up a bit. That it makes us feel dysfunctional at times when actually we're functioning perfectly normally as animals. It's just that we need to manage and control certain drives and instincts in order to manage life on a higher level and to pursue longer term goals (for longer term happiness).

 

As a teen I would imagine getting married to a boy like that. When I have fantasies I have to bring a sense of reality into them. I can't completely escape reality through fantasy. So when I imagined getting married to a boy like that, I'd be unable to escape the reality of how we'd end up. What a trapped and miserable life I'd end up having with somebody I didn't like as a person. How quickly I'd lose my sexual and romantic attraction to him (just by looking around, I could see what those guys would grow into, and it wasn't a pretty sight). Through envisaging such a future, I learned to control my attraction to those boys.

 

Since as humans we're so frequently taught to be embarrassed by and ashamed of our basic drives, or expose ourselves to accusations of dysfunctionality if we admit to them, we'll sometimes deny them. A poor therapist would probably tell me "you had low self esteem, and that's why you were attracted to those bad boys". And so begins the process of shaping somebody into something dysfunctional. "You're a victim, you have low self esteem" etc. Those who make their living from the therapeutic and self help interests often have a strong investment in making others feel that way...but it's not necessarily helpful. It can feel like a form of victim blaming, that enforces a sense of victimhood.

 

A lot of crap can be cut out of life when we recognise and own our basic instincts. "It's not a case of low self esteem...I'm excited by that aggressive male, because that's the female animal in me coming out. However, that part of me operating on a higher level recognises that it's not in my long term interests to get embroiled with him." When we recognise our instincts and own them, it's liberating. I think when we don't recognise and own them, we're more likely to be trapped long term in victimhood. Fear of being "found out" about our basic, darker desires and being subjected to victim blaming as a result of them. At odds with ourselves and unable to channel those darker desires in more positive ways.

 

There's a long history of women being criticised for being sexually attracted to aggressive males, but there's not nearly the same kind of focus on men who are sexually attracted to aggressive females. We have that "Latina throwing plates at her lover" stereotype of course, but it's more mainstream for women to express a preference for submissive women (and of course with the angry Latina stereotype, part of the attraction is that she submits in the end).

 

So I wonder if part of the shame men feel in these situations relates to the fact that a part of them is attracted to the woman's aggression - but that this is something that doesn't get talked about much. Not even in the derisory way that female attraction towards bad boys is discussed. I mean, there are plenty of aggressive girls in the school yard - and often they're quite pretty. It's easy to see how an attraction towards female aggression could begin there. But admitting sensations of sexual attraction towards an aggressive individual can be a dangerous business. It exposes people to victim blaming and to a lack of support when that support is needed.

 

I'm not sure how that can be addressed (in the case of a person of either gender who is in an abusive relationship). But I don't think that videos such as the one linked in this thread are helpful. In part because the editing looks very suspect and agenda fuelled. Also I think when activism seeks to blame and attack society (and ordinary members of society for not being sufficiently proactive in getting embroiled in whatever activist cause it is) it alienates rather than draws in support. Helps to create "them and us....victim and persecutor".

 

As human beings, we're all capable of being the victims of our own basic animal drives that seek short term gains...often at a heavy longer term price. I think more honesty about that would help to liberate more people from the sense of "I'm a victim, broken and with low self esteem" thinking that the therapy industry has a strong vested interest in promoting.

Edited August 6, 2016 by Taramere

[jen1447]

I remember seeing that video several months ago and my thinking then was that, on its own merits, it was a hamfisted attempt to portray a preconceived notion - namely that women being harassed by men would get a lot more attention than vice versa. Not exactly a huge leap, considering that very generally, men pose a much bigger physical threat to women than vice versa. (That's not to dismiss Art's points, just stating that the tendency for ppl to intervene will be directly affected by the degree of perceived danger imo.) So if they were attempting to show the obvious, good job. If they were attempting to preach to us that all abuse is wrong etc. etc., not so much - most of us already get that.

[jen1447]

Put a slightly stronger than average woman together with a punier than average man, and the man is likely still significantly stronger than the woman. There's a pretty major strength differential between men and women.

 

Couple incidental things about this ....most women are at a disadvantage to men in terms of average upper body strength and will tend to lose wrestling matches bc of it, but the whole strength question is more a matter of lower body strength, which tends to be much more equal. When women 'underperform' at, say, fistfighting, it's more a case of having zero experience at it and not knowing how as opposed to actually being deficient. (The 'power' of effective punches generally comes from your lower body and your arms are more the delivery devices than anything else.) If you're imagining Brock Lessner vs. Ariana Grande right now you're probably thinking "um what?" but most couples don't have that disparity and it's quite possible for a woman who knows how to fight and use the strength of her lower body to hurt a guy in a more likely matchup. (I should know bc I've done enough of it - got my ass kicked a lot in school until I slowly figured it out and started turning the tables. )

 

None of this changes that it's a bit silly to expect ppl to cry equally for Ariana at the mercy of Brock and a 180 lb. guy at the mercy of his 120 lb. GF who doesn't know how to throw a punch and is doing the elbow hinge flailing forearm attack, but suffice it to say some women can hurt a guy pretty bad. I think if the 120 lb. chick started laying the 180 lb. guy out w haymakers, the reactions in the video would be diff and more equitable.

[todreaminblue]

I feel a lot of people automatically assume the guy can handle himself......the people in the first part of the video are different from the people in the second part.....it would be more true...if the witnesses were the same people

 

 

when i lived in a bad part of sydney....there was this drunk guy getting stomped on by another drunk guy....bought quite a crowd...egged the fight on......thought it was hilarious.....good entertainment.....until i covered the guy on the ground with my body......and begged the guy steel cap booting the guys head to stop......before that head became mush.....

 

people watching fights...sometimes dont actually comprehend whats happening....they dont sense the danger...they think it will be ok.....they dont need to step in.....its common...for both men and women to do this....

 

cat fights are the worse.....men get aroused by them..yet...they can be really violent and bloody.....vicious stuff....i got sent to hospital from a three on one cat fight..one slammed my head into a toilet bowl repeatedly while the other two stood guard......the only person who broke it up and saved me was a bouncer.....

 

violence is violence...i abhorr violence in the streets...and unfortunately...part of us as humans and us being imperfect.. can find violence..entertaining....

 

i like watchign boxing...ufc.....i like to see gladiators fight in a ring with rules...gentleman who box or fight with old school honor...who choose to fight.....but in all honesty......i shouldnt watch it or like it....part of me does...and part of me feels guilty...its the paramount paradox of humanity to be torn between witnessing what is bloody and wrong...and making it seem alright............deb

Edited August 7, 2016 by todreaminblue

[S_A]

Part of why people reacted that way when they saw the woman abusing the man had to do with the fact that people were thinking the man was gettinf what he deserved. When you see a woman attacking a man IRL, your assumption is "this guy must have really screwed up LOL!"

 

I remember when I broke up with my long time GF. I got annoyed about informing people of our break up because, people would automatically assume I cheated or did something to break her heart. Once I said the words "we broke up" or "we're no longer together", they would look at me like I was a monster.

 

Point is that in situations like these, it is always assumed that it's the guys fault, that he deserves it, and the woman is the victim. With all that being said, that is usually the safest bet

[Taramere]

I remember seeing that video several months ago and my thinking then was that, on its own merits, it was a hamfisted attempt to portray a preconceived notion - namely that women being harassed by men would get a lot more attention than vice versa. Not exactly a huge leap, considering that very generally, men pose a much bigger physical threat to women than vice versa. (That's not to dismiss Art's points, just stating that the tendency for ppl to intervene will be directly affected by the degree of perceived danger imo.) So if they were attempting to show the obvious, good job. If they were attempting to preach to us that all abuse is wrong etc. etc., not so much - most of us already get that.

 

Right. In any event, when it comes to street arguments that are turning physical, I think most people's form of intervention would involve calling the police rather than getting directly involved.

 

When I worked in kids' homes I had no option but to wade in physically in these disputes in order to protect fighting teens from eachother. I would literally get between 15 year old boys and girls who were threatening to kill eachother (usually the fights were same gendered - but not always) and push them apart. There were so many situations like that, and I can't tell you how glad I am that I haven't worked in that situation for a long time. I think the only reason I didn't end up seriously hurt was that I had enough of a relationship with those teenagers for them to trust and appreciate that I was putting myself at risk to protect them.

 

But grown adults fighting in the street who I don't have any knowledge of or relationship with are a different matter. I would call the police if it looked as though either party was in serious trouble, but beyond that I doubt I'd get involved. As far as being a woman intervening where another woman is berating a man goes...really not a good plan. I think it's highly unlikely that such an intervention wouldn't just escalate things further. The woman's jealousy would probably be ignited (or fuelled further if jealousy was at the root of her argument with the man) and the man would likely feel humiliated by a woman trying to rescue him.

 

Gender politics try to steer us away from employing that kind of logic - but I suspect that when it comes to dealing with the full on adrenalin and basic instinct fuelled rage that plays a role in public arguments that are turning violent...gender studies and the politically correct (ie gender neutral) responses/outcomes argued for in debates like this aren't much use. These situations are where our own basic instincts kick in to tell us the best course of action.

Edited August 8, 2016 by Taramere

[jen1447]

I also kinda principally object to the presumption of being taught dollar store psychology and values lessons by Facebook timeline videos, but that's becoming very commonplace anymore.

[DrReplyInRhymes]

I also kinda principally object to the presumption of being taught dollar store psychology and values lessons by Facebook timeline videos, but that's becoming very commonplace anymore.

 

As opposed to supporting feminism and sexual assault issues with funny clips from a daytime TV show?

Just because the video was posted on someone's timeline doesn't mean it's just another Facebook video.

Do a simple search of this issue being reproduced all around the world in different places,

This isn't an acute phenomenon with "paid actors" to give entertainment to different faces.

 

This is just an awareness check, it isn't just females and blacks and minorities being oppressed,

There are certain feminism views that I completely agree with, such as equal pay and to that I attest!

However, to hear about sexual and physical misconduct only affecting one side of the fence,

is ridiculous when their expectation of the other gender isn't the same, especially in present tense.

[jen1447]

DRR, would it be possible to at least at times drop the rhyming thing so it's easier tell what you're talking about? It's actually really distracting most of the time tbh.

[Taramere]

DRR, would it be possible to at least at times drop the rhyming thing so it's easier tell what you're talking about? It's actually really distracting most of the time tbh.

 

I know. Dr...I can understand that once you've given yourself a name like DrReplyInRhymes there might be a sense of "well, I've committed to this thing now, and I've got to follow through" - but you can let yourself off the hook now and again, surely? Especially in serious posts where you're expressing views on issues you feel strongly about.

[DrReplyInRhymes]

I do agree, I find it difficult to convey messages through rhyme on issues like this or that,

But it's to prove that I'm not entirely incapable of commitment as a matter of fact!