Can't do this anymore

[Jersey born raised]

Neither marriage or Christianity is a sucide pact. Write that a thousand times a day.

 

Turning the check is not to respond in kind. Instead shun the person. Few realize how to shun. Shunning is the compete denial of the others existence. It is the 180 on super steroids. It means never acknowledging the other person is even in the other room.

[Cephalopod]

I think in some instances forgiveness should be earned, not just given away. I believe this is just one instance where that should apply.

[Jersey born raised]

I suggest you stop speaking to your wife on this subject. Like Abraham, this is a solitary journey for you to make without her. You spoke of beer and smoking. Why does your faith reject self harm these things cause? Why should an abusivie marriage be the same?

 

Paul spoke of "if your eye offends you poke it out, if your hand offends you cut it off". I don't take those word literary, but rather if you are a pedophile and remove yourself to a monastery. He spoke of if a spouse refuses to allow you your faith leave them. My faith (Christian) God wants us to have healthy and whole lives. How does staying in your marriage hold to my view of faith.

 

A Jewish teacher (H....?) told a roman soldier to love God with all you heart, the rest was just a how to guide.

 

Did you read my link to DARVO? This is what you need to know about your wife's response.

 

What is DARVO?

 

Jennifer J. Freyd, University of Oregon

 

Short Definition

 

DARVO refers to a reaction perpetrators of wrong doing, particularly sexual offenders, may display in response to being held accountable for their behavior. DARVO stands for "Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender." The perpetrator or offender may Deny the behavior, Attack the individual doing the confronting, and Reverse the roles of Victim and Offender such that the perpetrator assumes the victim role and turns the true victim -- or the whistle blower -- into an alleged offender. This occurs, for instance, when an actually guilty perpetrator assumes the role of "falsely accused" and attacks the accuser's credibility or even blames the accuser of being the perpetrator of a false accusation.

 

 

Disclaimers

 

DARVO as a concept is based on observation and analysis. The author has not yet published systematic empirical research testing the coherence or frequency of DARVO. However, the first empirical research specifically testing the concept of DARVO is completed and the manuscript report is in preparation (Harsey, Zurbriggen, & Freyd, in prep).

Other observers have likely noted the same phenomena and related phenomena using different terms; the author has been informed that some people have found the term DARVO a helpful mnemonic and organizing concept.

Also the presense of DARVO is not necessarily evidence in support of the accusation of guilt; a truly innocent person may deny an accusation, attack the person making the accusation, or claim the victim role. Future research may be able to determine the probability of a DARVO response as a function of guilt or innocence. The author hypothesized that some sorts of denials and reactions such as DARVO are more likely when the perpetrator is guilty than innocent (Freyd, 1997); however this hypothesis has not yet been tested. Furthermore, even if research indicates that a DARVO reaction is more likely when there is actual guilt, it would be an error to use a DARVO reaction as proof of guilt.

For now the concept of DARVO is offered as potentially memorable and useful term for anticipating the behavior of perpetrators when held accountable, and for making sense of responses that may otherwise be confusing (particularly when victim and offender get reversed).*

History of Terminology & Writings about DARVO

 

Jennifer Freyd introduced the term "DARVO" near the end of a 1997 publication about her primary research focus, "betrayal trauma theory." (For more on betrayal trauma theory, see Definition of Betrayal Trauma Theory.)

 

The reference for the 1997 article introducing the term is:

 

Freyd, J.J. (1997) Violations of power, adaptive blindness, and betrayal trauma theory. Feminism & Psychology, 7, 22-32.

 

In that paper Freyd explained that DARVO responses may be effective for perpetrators. "...I have observed that actual abusers threaten, bully and make a nightmare for anyone who holds them accountable or asks them to change their abusive behavior. This attack, intended to chill and terrify, typically includes threats of law suits, overt and covert attacks on the whistle-blower's credicility, and so on..... [T]he offender rapidly creates the impression that the abuser is the wronged one, while the victim or concerned observer is the offender. Figure and ground are completely reversed... The offender is on the offense and the person attempting to hold the offender accountable is put on the defense." (Freyd, 1997, p 29-30)

 

"By denying, attacking and reversing perpetrators into victims, reality gets even more confusing and unspeakable for the real victim. .... These perpetrator reactions increase the need for betrayal blindness. If the victim does speak out and gets this level of attack, she quickly gets the idea that silence is safer." (Veldhuis & Freyd, 1999. p 274).

 

It didn't happen (an instance) or It rarely happens (a type of event)

It wasn't harmful

Put together they can take the form: "It didn't happen, but if it did, it wasn't that bad" or "It rarely happens, but when it does it isn't harmful." The two claims both serve to deny, but they depend upon different sorts of evidence. They may both be true, but they are sometimes somewhat suspicious when claimed simultaneously (or by the same person at different times), as for instance can occur in response to allegations of rape or child sexual abuse.

 

Here is the link*What is DARVO?

[bigman1]

Broken,

 

I REALLY understand the whole christian guilt issue as well as the "I'm fulfilling my role" and "it's my duty" concepts. I can tell you a few things that have helped others.

 

First, divorce and forgiveness are not inconsistent. In Christianity there is that cause and effect concept that is always made. Sin and judgement, etc. It does not apply here and you have proven that with your life. Divorce, just like marriage is a RESULT. You date, fall in love, have shared goals, etc and then you decide to get married. It is a result. If someone breaks their vows or people grow apart or any number of things that result in the marriage falling apart as both or one is suffering, then divorce happens. A good movie that describes you and illustrates my concept is "The best exotic marigold hotel". bottm line, it is not unforgiveness to divorce. It is just a result.

 

Gotta cut it short. Gotta work.

 

Next, keep working on getting your mind right. You have every right to be happy. You have every right to move on. You have not failed in any duty, you have done your job. Your enlistment period is over. Get you some R&R.

[drifter777]

Why do people like us think that we are the ones that have to save the world? Why do we think we have to do the "Honorable" thing and sacrifice our happiness for everyone else?

 

Right you are, I think I was raised to believe that Dads are always there. That I am supposed to be strong no matter what. There to protect and provide at any cost.

I am the same kind of man and I'm not sure that family-of-origin is the only factor in play here. My father was an alcoholic and truly a vicious man when he was drinking. Which was much of the time. He was not a good role model as a husband or a father and ultimately abandoned my mother and younger siblings. So, for me, sacrificing my sense of judgement & self-esteem for my family didn't come from my dad's example. Either my psyche is over-correcting for the "bad dad" example I learned or this compelling feeling of family responsibility is in my DNA. Either way it is deep-seated and probably the toughest thing in the world for a person like you to overcome and put yourself first.

 

Most of the BH's posting here are not only correct in their assessment of your situation but are also giving you great advice. I'm trying to put a spotlight on what I think the context of your struggle really is. It's going to take a tremendous amount of courage to actually do the things for yourself you know you need to do to find peace.

 

WW is always hitting me with its my fault now. If I were a real Christian that I would be able to forgive. Personally I believe I have forgiven, but that is different than trying to live with the effects of her actions and words. As far as I am concerned, she ended our marriage the moment she offered herself to someone else. I am gaining a considerable amount of courage and confidence just through communicating these things. Thank you all for your posts

It's a personal battle that you are waging. Your allies are people that have walked in your shoes and, most importantly, your IC.

[Mr Blunt]

By Broken4ever

The issue isn't trying to prove something, but in my case balancing dying to oneself and letting you be run over like a fool.

 

Broken4ever, you seem like a very serious Christian and are trying to accomplish one of the hardest things in Christian living; dying to oneself. One of the most powerful verses in the Bible about dying to self is Galatians 2:20

 

Galatians 2:20

I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

 

Jesus died for sinners by taking up His own cross but when we take up our own cross it means that we must die to ourselves which means that we must put God the Father’s will ahead of our own, just as Jesus did and prayed “not my will by yours be done” (Luke 22:42b).

 

YES, putting God’s will ahead of our own does NOT mean that we allow our spouse to emotionally abuse us and that we allow ourselves to be treated like a fool and become a masochistic martyr.

 

The Bible doesn’t use the label “emotional abuse,” but it does prohibit it. First, we are not to curse people who have been created in the image of God (James 3:9). Second, emotional abuse violates the two greatest commandments: love God and love others as yourself (Matthew 22:35-40). Third, emotional abuse violates God’s design for marriage where the husband lovingly leads and the wife lovingly submits (Ephesians 5:21-33). Fourth, it violates Christian living by denying yourself (Mark 8:34) and speaking wholesome words (Ephesians 4:29). Fifth, it displays pride and a lack of fear of God, which leads to destruction (Proverbs 16:18).

Responding to Emotional Abuse in Marriage | Biblical Counseling Coalition

 

 

Dying to self is sacrificing yourself for God’s will NOT allowing your wife to violate God’s word and you becoming a door mat.

 

Forgiving is you getting rid if any hatred or vengeance against your wife. Forgiving DOES NOT mean that you allow your wife to abuse you.

 

Broken4ever, do you have a different understanding of dying to self and forgiveness than what is printed above?

[broken4ever]

I completely believe what you said, and of course the scriptures you quoted, (good ones by the way, well done). The problem is that I "feel" so much like a failure, even though in my heart I know that I am not. There is nothing so devastating than to tell someone who,s entire life revolves around making you happy that they are pretty much a loser, (not in words, but in actions) ie whatever you are doing isnt enough for me. I am very careful who I listen to, because so much of this my needs your needs bull is in the church today. Where in the word does it say anything about you need to meet my needs and if you don't, I'll have an affair with someone who does. This is a shameful ministry in my mind and feeds into the selfish nature that we all possess.

I gave a readers digest version of the events that brought me to this place, and I will expound as we go. My wife has no filters, she says the meanest and most hurtful things without thinking. She has told me that she cannot have an orgasm without fantasizing that I am a woman having oral sex with her. This on top of "you know what I'm attracted to", leaves me no place, i feel like a paycheck and a dildo. My wife, by the way is a very beautiful woman, and most would wonder why she is with me. Her testimony of our life includes things like "when I first met him I thought he would be a good friend, I had dated really good looking guys all my life who treated me like crap. He was so kind and treated me so well, he won my heart". I have to go, I am freaking out right now, so sad.

[drifter777]

I completely believe what you said, and of course the scriptures you quoted, (good ones by the way, well done). The problem is that I "feel" so much like a failure, even though in my heart I know that I am not. There is nothing so devastating than to tell someone who,s entire life revolves around making you happy that they are pretty much a loser, (not in words, but in actions) ie whatever you are doing isnt enough for me. I am very careful who I listen to, because so much of this my needs your needs bull is in the church today. Where in the word does it say anything about you need to meet my needs and if you don't, I'll have an affair with someone who does. This is a shameful ministry in my mind and feeds into the selfish nature that we all possess.

I gave a readers digest version of the events that brought me to this place, and I will expound as we go. My wife has no filters, she says the meanest and most hurtful things without thinking. She has told me that she cannot have an orgasm without fantasizing that I am a woman having oral sex with her. This on top of "you know what I'm attracted to", leaves me no place, i feel like a paycheck and a dildo. My wife, by the way is a very beautiful woman, and most would wonder why she is with me. Her testimony of our life includes things like "when I first met him I thought he would be a good friend, I had dated really good looking guys all my life who treated me like crap. He was so kind and treated me so well, he won my heart". I have to go, I am freaking out right now, so sad.

 

Pretty much no one is going to post that her treatment of you is acceptable. This latest post will bring a rain of "divorce her" - I'm wondering if this is what you need? Like you know you should leave but that narrative needs to be supported by others in order for you to rationalize your decision to divorce.

 

BTW: divorce her.

[Cephalopod]

If you are unwilling to divorce her, then maybe do some reading.

 

No More Mr. Nice Guy and Married Man's Sex Life Primer are two very good reads that will help you identify bad coping skills within yourself that are easily changeable. Both are religiously neutral. These publications may not help your marriage, but they will help you become a more emotionally independent male. Right now what you need is to pull away from her emotionally. You have made yourself too vulnerable and accessible to her. Everything you have tried has failed, so time to take a different tack.

[Jersey born raised]

In the catholic church your wife's statements would be grounds for allnulment. Not because of the women comment but because she entered into the marriage with fraudulent intent.

 

What most Catholics and others do not realize is the RC church is not saying a marriage did not exist, but a valid marriage never existed. This is an important distinction. The RC church views a valid marriage to consists of several elements: sacred, love, and a legal contract. If fraud occurs in the creation of a legal contact it is ruled allnuled and the terms null.

 

If this though resonates with your beliefs divorce should be a valid option for you to prusue. Not that you must but that you are free to.

 

If you do decide to stay your wife needs to see a qualified therapist with a background in CSA, FOO and cluster B personalities. See Downtowns posts on the subject.

[broken4ever]

You are correct I am seeking affirmation from my peers , The last thing I've ever wanted in my life was to be divorced but I have become a shell of the man I once was . I can feel my children losing respect for me, Which absolutely cuts me to the heart. When I feel myself slipping into sadness I just picture her lying underneath him, but I know that this is no way to get over what I've been through, I need to find something good, something positive,something lovely to grasp onto. I can't live relieving my sorrow with anger or I feel thatI will become bitter.

Edited August 17, 2016 by broken4ever

[Buckeye2]

You are correct I am seeking affirmation from my peers , The last thing I've ever wanted in my life was to be divorced but I have become a shell of the man I once was . I can feel my children losing respect for me, Which absolutely cuts me to the heart. When I feel myself slipping into sadness I just picture her lying underneath him, but I know that this is no way to get over what I've been through, I need to find something good, something positive,something lovely to grasp onto. I can't live relieving my sorrow with anger or I feel thatI will become bitter.

 

You’re so far down that the only way to go is up. See a lawyer and see where you stand. Figure out how to best play your hand and file for divorce. It can’t be a bluff. Don’t start the process unless you’re actually prepared to follow through. Bluffing a folding right away is pathetic and will make matters even worse if that’s imaginable. Let the kids know and why. Tell them the truth that you stayed for them and now they are adults.

 

I know of many examples where BS’s just bided their time until the youngest kid was 18 and filed for divorce seeming out of the blue. That was their plan all along.

 

Reread you posts. Your wife abused you in the worst ways and you took it. She’s a cheater with no morals. Why would a selfish person like her respect your noble sacrifice? You were her doormat. Would her argument be she hasn’t wiped her feet on you for years so you can’t divorce her now?

 

If she shapes up and shows true remorse you can stay married. If you file for divorce and mean it I think you would gain respect from everyone including yourself.

[broken4ever]

I'm really having a tough night. My beautiful daughter is getting married Sunday, and here I am, driving down a road i never intended to travel, having to make a decision to turn down a path I never wanted. Turn right and be alone, turn left and flip the switch, Jesus, please help me. The images in my mind are what cast the shadows in my heart, I believe that this awakening was his way of giving me one last glimmer of hope, pray that I have the courage to for once say yes to me.

[Buckeye2]

My beautiful daughter is getting married Sunday.

 

Put all of this out of your mind for now and enjoy your daughter’s wedding. Her wedding is a symbol of all you have accomplished and sacrificed for. You deserve to celebrate. When it’s over you can decide what path to take.

[Mr Blunt]

By Broken4ever

The problem is that I "feel" so much like a failure, even though in my heart I know that I am not.

You are going to have to make your head and faith overrule your emotions. Your wife has beaten you down for years in the cruelest ways. You know that you are not a failure in God’s eyes so do not let your wife’s opinion overrule God’s opinion of you. Rely on what the scriptures say about you because your wife has twisted your emotions and her opinion must be viewed as cruel and hateful. An example of her evil is reprinted below

By Broken4ever

My wife has no filters; she says the meanest and most hurtful things without thinking. She has told me that she cannot have an orgasm without fantasizing that I am a woman having oral sex with her

 

By Broken4ever

I have become a shell of the man I once was. I can feel my children losing respect for me, which absolutely cuts me to the heart.

That is way too high of a price to pay mostly because of your wife. You need to get fighting mad! Your wife has not only failed miserably to be a help to you in the most important issues, she has deliberately betrayed her marriage vows and God’s teachings. You really have two choices; you can continue to allow her to tear you down or you can force yourself to claim the value that you have. If you can get some help right there in your community or church then run to that help. Remember, you can do all things through God that strengthens you.

 

 

 

By Broken4ever

Pray that I have the courage to for once say yes to me.

God is waiting for you to say yes to yourself. Put your trust and hope in God and not your cruel and hateful wife.

 

Isaiah 41:10 Fear thou not, for I am with thee; be not dismayed, for I am thy God; I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness

[broken4ever]

Thanks blunt. I appreciate your wisdom, and even more that you include scripture. Heading to ic tonight, presenting my plan for separation to her. Will update later

[road]

Thanks blunt. I appreciate your wisdom, and even more that you include scripture. Heading to ic tonight, presenting my plan for separation to her. Will update later

 

 

 

 

I read your 1st post again.

 

 

All I see is a BH and a WW that never did the required work to recover their marriage after an affair. Rug sweeping never fixes anything.

 

 

Now filing for divorce is going to allow you to make the F'off statement to your WW. Well once that is said that good feeling will fade.

 

 

Now that WW is willing to do the MC and the work why spite yourself for short term gain vs long term?

[broken4ever]

First off road, you have never heard me mention divorce other than in theory. I am making no long term commitments in my current frame of mind, my only goal right now is to get my head and heart right, even if it were to end in divorce it would not be an f-off statement, it is not now or ever been my desire to hurt anyone, it is not in my nature to do so. I actually have compassion for her, it is not in me to make her suffer. My comments of being alone are in reference to a healing period in which I know I cannot be with her to accomplish.

[merrmeade]

All I see is a BH and a WW that never did the required work to recover their marriage after an affair.

What about all the insensitive, outright abusive things she's said to him?

[BluesPower]

broken4ever,

 

 

" I actually have compassion for her, it is not in me to

make her suffer. "

 

My friend, then you are a far, far better man than I can ever hope to be. I guess that I may understand some of it but there is a limit.

 

 

I hope, that you figure out what to do, and I hope you will find happiness.

 

 

Good luck to you...

[road]

First off road, you have never heard me mention divorce other than in theory. I am making no long term commitments in my current frame of mind, my only goal right now is to get my head and heart right, even if it were to end in divorce it would not be an f-off statement, it is not now or ever been my desire to hurt anyone, it is not in my nature to do so. I actually have compassion for her, it is not in me to make her suffer. My comments of being alone are in reference to a healing period in which I know I cannot be with her to accomplish.

 

 

Marriages can not recover when the spouses separate.

 

 

Separating, I see it as you to pointing the finger at WW and say I am mad at you for your affair and the lack of recovery and your refusal to help me and this marriage heal.

 

 

You can say all those things to your WW without separating and insist that joint work has to be done towards recovery.

 

 

I know you are seeking to feel better. Showing up WW with "I am separating" does nothing to help the healing.

[Cephalopod]

Marriages can not recover when the spouses separate.

 

 

Separating, I see it as you to pointing the finger at WW and say I am mad at you for your affair and the lack of recovery and your refusal to help me and this marriage heal.

 

 

You can say all those things to your WW without separating and insist that joint work has to be done towards recovery.

 

 

I know you are seeking to feel better. Showing up WW with "I am separating" does nothing to help the healing.

 

I see this as true for long term separation.

 

But what about him just taking a break from her? Say forty days? He can go out to the wilderness and pray and fast and get a perspective on things. That's the Biblical way to get one's head on straight.

[road]

What about all the insensitive, outright abusive things she's said to him?

 

 

So what about the words. Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me.

 

 

The sex with the OM to me was/is worse. Time has to come where this BH has to decide:

 

 

To divorce

 

 

To recover

 

 

To not do the work, rug sweep, and, maintain the status quo.

[drifter777]

So what about the words. Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me.

 

 

The sex with the OM to me was/is worse. Time has to come where this BH has to decide:

 

 

To divorce

 

 

To recover

 

 

To not do the work, rug sweep, and, maintain the status quo.

 

Yeah, well it might take him a while to decide which path to follow. Separation is a great idea - it gives him a chance to work with his IC and sort out his own thoughts and emotions with her manipulation. It will also help him to begin to detach from her and he will see that it's not as hard as he thinks it is. He will likely find that living alone doesn't automatically mean lonely - it can mean peace and quiet as well. It can be the first step in healing.

 

road, what is your infidelity story?

[Lobe]

Marriages can not recover when the spouses separate.

 

 

Separating, I see it as you to pointing the finger at WW and say I am mad at you for your affair and the lack of recovery and your refusal to help me and this marriage heal.

 

 

You can say all those things to your WW without separating and insist that joint work has to be done towards recovery.

 

 

I know you are seeking to feel better. Showing up WW with "I am separating" does nothing to help the healing.

 

road, I see your point and I'm sure it's true for many, but recovery from an affair isn't one-size fits all and in my experience there will be a lot of trial and error as both partners try and find their footing after the destruction of their foundation from an affair.

 

Separating saved my marriage. Making him sit in a lawyer's office and sign his life away, making him live away from his family and his home and his wife was not just an integral but an essential part of him waking the f*ck up. He needed to be alone with his bullsh*t in order to see what he was trading his marriage in for.