Trying to make sense of this...

[Rockflower]

Thank you NTV,

 

I have learnt that I am an intelligent, attractive, capable and worthy woman. However, I still struggle with everyday triggers, anxiety, blah, blah. TBH, what I have learnt is that the horrendous stuff I have been through makes me such a rare, strong woman that it makes me feel very lonely (cos I have only met one or two people experiencing anything like what i have been through in total) And that isn't being arrogant, but rather, shocking. Which again, leads to being very lonely ...

You see how it goes...

[Lobe]

Thank you NTV,

 

I have learnt that I am an intelligent, attractive, capable and worthy woman. However, I still struggle with everyday triggers, anxiety, blah, blah. TBH, what I have learnt is that the horrendous stuff I have been through makes me such a rare, strong woman that it makes me feel very lonely (cos I have only met one or two people experiencing anything like what i have been through in total) And that isn't being arrogant, but rather, shocking. Which again, leads to being very lonely ...

You see how it goes...

 

If you can't follow, lead - perhaps there are others in similar situations looking for support and your unique personal perspective and experience puts you in an ideal place to be a mentor.

[Rockflower]

Thank you, yet again, Lobe.

My weakness is believing in my strengths (which seemed to intimidate and cause abuse from many, many others) (In fact, MM was the ONLY one that didn't do that ... which makes it even harder!).

But I will take your words and absorb them.

 

I can't thank you all enough, truly xx

[Rockflower]

Also, abandonment ... yes, worked very much with Susan Anderson stuff too, invaluable plus also Peter Walker.

[Quiet Storm]

Dysfunction attracts dysfunction.

 

It's good that you're going to counseling so that you can learn to be introspective and self aware. With your background, it's no surprise that you ended up attracted to a man like this. You are educated and logically recognize the dysfunction and how unhealthy it is, but it still attracts you subconsciously because it's familiar and comfortable.

.

 

You know he's a weak man with no balls entwined in a dysfunctional dance with a controlling wife... yet you still got involved. This shows that you are smart enough to see the unhealthiness and spot a controlling woman from a mile away, but your emotional side still wants to dance in the dysfunction. Just like he complains about his controlling wife and bad marriage, but still participates.

 

 

Maybe this can be a step on your journey towards self awareness and in the future weak men like this will disgust and repel you, rather than intrigue and attract you

 

Controlling behavior is often a coping mechanism to relieve anxiety. It is an unhealthy attempt to manage it. It's easy to see why his wife was anxious and insecure- he was cheating on her and lying to her.

 

You made the choice to go to counseling to manage your issues, some people may pop a xanax, smoke, have a glass of wine or self harm. Others control. Although the behavior appears to be motivated by power and resentment, it's often driven by insecurity- just a person with bad coping skills trying their best to relieve their anxiety.

 

I hope he leaves you alone, but if he doesn't, don't allow yourself to be pawn in their dysfunction. She's trying to control, and he's the weak little boy that resents feeling controlled. His choice to cheat is likely not about a connection between you two, but it's his way to say "eff you" to his wife. It's about them two and their unhealthy patterns. Refuse to participate in their tit for tat games. Don't allow yourself to be used in that way.

[Rockflower]

ChickiPops : Many ways - from expressing her deep concern for me through endless, endless unwanted contact in various forms, to the degree of fooling me into trying to be as helpful as possible to her (of course, I tried to comply), then suddenly responding really, really abusively - and yes, I understand mood swings, PTSD-reactions, etc, because I have them); responding to texts to him on his number (I.e., as if it was him); answering his phone when I called one morning because I was worried (he said it was the worst night of his life, because of what she did to him) and then keeping his phone from him and talking to me in a very unnatural, creepy manner - I actually said I wondered if he was trussed up somewhere.

She did this around the anniversary of the m/c (at which time I was at an extremely vulnerable time) - she knew this and joked about it and that it was all lies, then added "at least I have children :):):)" plus she also stated and spread word that I had been sectioned numerous times (not true) ...that's just a taste of what it was like. I went to the police in the end to stop it.

Edited August 28, 2016 by Rockflower

[Lobe]

ChickiPops : Many ways - from expressing her deep concern for me through endless, endless unwanted contact in various forms, to the degree of fooling me into trying to be as helpful as possible to her (of course, I tried to comply), then suddenly responding really, really abusively - and yes, I understand mood swings, PTSD-reactions, etc, because I have them); responding to texts to him on his number (I.e., as if it was him); answering his phone when I called one morning because I was worried (he said it was the worst night of his life, because of what she did to him) and then keeping his phone from him and talking to me in a very unnatural, creepy manner - I actually said I wondered if he was trussed up somewhere.

She did this around the anniversary of the m/c (at which time I was at an extremely vulnerable time) - she knew this and joked about it and that it was all lies, then added "at least I have children :):):)" plus she also stated and spread word that I had been sectioned numerous times (not true) ...that's just a taste of what it was like. I went to the police in the end to stop it.

 

This may all be well and good but this was not your circus, not your monkey. Your xMM married her and if he was unhappy, divorce not a mistress was the right answer. The fact her emotional baggage was entangled with yours should have been yet another red flag saying, "Run!!!"

 

You don't honestly believe her behavior justifies an affair, do you?

[Rockflower]

Dysfunction attracts dysfunction.

 

Thank you QS - I've added some responses in below:

 

It's good that you're going to counseling so that you can learn to be introspective and self aware.

- yes, I am probably too self aware ... the result of years of therapy that taught me that it's not actually me that's the problem - without sounding arrogant (I am far, far from that), the realisation is that I was doing the sane thing all along...the police once said this to me as well as my recent, bestest, therapist.

 

With your background, it's no surprise that you ended up attracted to a man like this. You are educated and logically recognize the dysfunction and how unhealthy it is, but it still attracts you subconsciously because it's familiar and comfortable.

 

Maybe this can be a step on your journey towards self awareness and in the future weak men like this will disgust and repel you, rather than intrigue and attract you

 

- the trouble here is that it is very difficult to relate to someone who hasn't been through dysfunction or extreme hardship - it is a very lonely place when you really cannot relate to others who have no comprehension of the level of traumas I suffered. I s'pose that's also why BS sometimes - not always - become OW (this is true).

Also, there is an attraction in helping someone through awful stuff that you have experienced ... isn't a bit of that what this forum is about? Would you turn someone away who was clearly crying out for help, oxygen masks aside?

 

Controlling behavior is often a coping mechanism to relieve anxiety. It is an unhealthy attempt to manage it. It's easy to see why his wife was anxious and insecure- he was cheating on her and lying to her.

 

You made the choice to go to counseling to manage your issues, some people may pop a xanax, smoke, have a glass of wine or self harm. Others control. Although the behavior appears to be motivated by power and resentment, it's often driven by insecurity- just a person with bad coping skills trying their best to relieve their anxiety.

 

- yes ... but I never did it, despite the horrors I went through, it would be my worst nightmare to be someone controlling.

 

His choice to cheat is likely not about a connection between you two, but it's his way to say "eff you" to his wife. It's about them two and their unhealthy patterns. Refuse to participate in their tit for tat games. Don't allow yourself to be used in that way.

- yes, I pointed out that both had approached me after so long (I had deleted all contacts) and proceeded to use me, she even agreed in writing a few times (in the 'nice' phase. I get that and I made it clear I wasn't going to be a part of it. That seemed to screw him up even more - which I also get is because he has to actually deal with his ***** now.

[Quiet Storm]

There are many, smart, educated, successful women that fall into this trap.

 

They see the dysfunction and recognize all the unhealthy ways their MM and his wife are managing their marriage. They educate themselves about the patterns, the push-pull, the effects of bad childhoods and dysfunctional bonds. They're very intellectually aware.

 

But often, they don't use that awareness to protect themselves and avoid dysfunction. Instead they are intrigued, curious and attracted. They feel so familiar and comfortable with him, and in spite of their education and wisdom (from past experiences), their emotions take over.

 

This illustrates how ingrained our patterns really are, and how difficult it can be to "check yourself before you wreck yourself".

[Rockflower]

This may all be well and good but this was not your circus, not your monkey. Your xMM married her and if he was unhappy, divorce not a mistress was the right answer. The fact her emotional baggage was entangled with yours should have been yet another red flag saying, "Run!!!"

 

You don't honestly believe her behavior justifies an affair, do you?

 

No Lobe, affairs are not 'valid', but are rarely b&w situations. I also understand how hard it is to stand up to very controlling people when you are sort of brain-washed - and often don't even see / understand the helpless position you are in. This isn't always the case, but I've been there myself plus know at least 4 male relatives who have slowly become depressed robots over many years and can't even see. This isn't me against women, it happened to me both by women and men. I just cannot stand controlling people, because of the horrors I experienced - I believe men are more likely to respond via an affair because they're generally rubbish at facing / dealing with emotions, looking inwards and instead turning their hurt outwards via affairs. In fact, they're a bit stupid and clumsy about it all. But controlling women are worse for me - very hard to stomach.

[loveisanaction]

It's very distasteful when the other woman throws shade at her married man's wife. Her husband was cheating on her and judging by her controlling behavior it seems she has been through this nonsense before. Her behaviour might not be normal but that could be because she doesn't know how else to fight for her marriage.

 

When you chose to have an affair with her husband you made yourself her business.

 

Her husband has told you to move on and that he is staying married. Stop throwing shade at his wife, it makes you sound sour and jealous.

 

She may be controlling but at the end of the day her husband has made his choice, he wants to stay married to his wife.

 

Accept this and work on moving on.

[Rockflower]

It's also very hard to see red flags when you're in hospital more than out, trying to get work, isolated with no support and trying to put your life together ... my IC said I'm one of the strongest people she's ever known. My weakness, then, is someone showing care in a MadMax world - or do I completely harden my heart and cut off everyone?

[Rockflower]

It's very distasteful when the other woman throws shade at her married man's wife. Her husband was cheating on her and judging by her controlling behavior it seems she has been through this nonsense before. Her behaviour might not be normal but that could be because she doesn't know how else to fight for her marriage.

 

When you chose to have an affair with her husband you made yourself her business.

 

Her husband has told you to move on and that he is staying married. Stop throwing shade at his wife, it makes you sound sour and jealous.

 

She may be controlling but at the end of the day her husband has made his choice, he wants to stay married to his wife.

 

 

 

Accept this and work on moving on.

 

This is an odd response for the OW / OM forum - but you're entitled to your view (which seem to be in the same vein) If you must know, the couple were highlighted in a publication for her controlling behaviour, not by me, and years before I ever knew him.

If you feel that I should have no emotion and just jog on - why are you perusing this forum? Isn't this all about recovery, understanding, empathy and help?

[Lobe]

I think Rockflower has decided to move on sans xMM and his controlling BS. I think that the vitriol an AP slings at the BS is common, regardless of whether the BS is a head case because of weeks/months/years of gas-lighting resulting from this affair (and possibly others) or because BS has always been a head case.

 

The same reason the BS makes the OW a succubus or the OM a sexual predator to make reconciliation palatable, the AP makes the BS out to be controlling or abusive to make themselves feel not so bad about banging someone else's spouse. I think trying to effectively gauge or make a judgment about the veracity of anyone's character while dealing with affairs is silly - we are too skewed by our human stupidity lol

 

See also: cognitive dissonance.

Edited August 30, 2016 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
language, member suspended ~T

[Rockflower]

There are many, smart, educated, successful women that fall into this trap.

 

They see the dysfunction and recognize all the unhealthy ways their MM and his wife are managing their marriage. They educate themselves about the patterns, the push-pull, the effects of bad childhoods and dysfunctional bonds. They're very intellectually aware.

 

But often, they don't use that awareness to protect themselves and avoid dysfunction. Instead they are intrigued, curious and attracted. They feel so familiar and comfortable with him, and in spite of their education and wisdom (from past experiences), their emotions take over.

 

This illustrates how ingrained our patterns really are, and how difficult it can be to "check yourself before you wreck yourself".

 

Thank you QS - spot on.

[Quiet Storm]

It's also very hard to see red flags when you're in hospital more than out, trying to get work, isolated with no support and trying to put your life together ... my IC said I'm one of the strongest people she's ever known. My weakness, then, is someone showing care in a MadMax world - or do I completely harden my heart and cut off everyone?

 

No, you don't harden your heart. You have to learn to be your own babysitter.

 

Think of a child- they are sweet, caring, trusting and empathetic.

 

They need parental supervision, otherwise they may get taken advantage of or find themselves in dangerous circumstances. They need to be protected from people who are selfish, inconsiderate, unhealthy or just so messed up emotionally that they hurt others Kids need someone to have their best interests at heart.

 

When we grow up- we have to be our own protector. We have to keep our best interests in mind.

 

That logical, intellectual, strong side of you that recognizes dysfunction and has gained wisdom from past experiences- that part of you is your parent, your babysitter.

 

The emotional part of you that is caring, trusting and sympathetic...that's the child. This part of you needs guidance and protection. When this part of you naively chases a ball into the path of a speeding car, the parent in you must take over and yank her back on the sidewalk.

[Rockflower]

I think Rockflower has decided to move on sans xMM and his controlling BS. I think that the vitriol an AP slings at the BS is common, regardless of whether the BS is a head case because of weeks/months/years of gas-lighting resulting from this affair (and possibly others) or because BS has always been a head case.

 

The same reason the BS makes the OW a succubus or the OM a sexual predator to make reconciliation palatable, the AP makes the BS out to be a controlling or abusive to make themselves feel not so bad about banging someone else's spouse. I think trying to effectively gauge or make a judgment about the veracity of anyone's character while dealing with affairs is silly - we are too skewed by our human stupidity lol

 

See also: cognitive dissonance.

 

Lobe - just to reiterate, I was far, far from vitriolic, quite the opposite. In fact I was warned by my IC and a couple of friends to protect myself from the BS, as I was being too thoughtful. Maybe it was because they saw my naivity. Anyhow, I got pure, 100% vitriol from her, which I initially accepted, trying to be understanding. But when I became ill(er) from it, I had to start to defend myself. I did everything I was asked to do and more (I.e., allowing her to contact with me, giving him space, whatever they asked). But there comes a point when you will not accept abuse and BS. If that is being vitriolic to the BS, so be it - I see it as eventual defence.

Edited August 30, 2016 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
language in quote ~T

[Rockflower]

No, you don't harden your heart. You have to learn to be your own babysitter.

 

Think of a child- they are sweet, caring, trusting and empathetic.

 

They need parental supervision, otherwise they may get taken advantage of or find themselves in dangerous circumstances. They need to be protected from people who are selfish, inconsiderate, unhealthy or just so messed up emotionally that they hurt others Kids need someone to have their best interests at heart.

 

When we grow up- we have to be our own protector. We have to keep our best interests in mind.

 

That logical, intellectual, strong side of you that recognizes dysfunction and has gained wisdom from past experiences- that part of you is your parent, your babysitter.

 

The emotional part of you that is caring, trusting and sympathetic...that's the child. This part of you needs guidance and protection. When this part of you naively chases a ball into the path of a speeding car, the parent in you must take over and yank her back on the sidewalk.

 

Thank you QS - that has made me cry, so much I can't see what I'm writing.

It is again spot on.

I know this...but it is soooo hard when so many traumas have and continue to happen. I'm learning to hide the Tshirt, but my IC says I am like this because I have undying hope that there are decent people out there and continue to trust, even despite trying to spot red flags, etc.

 

I think, when you have never had real care or love in your life, it is difficult to understand how it should be in a healthy way - it's not about accepting crumbs, it's about trying to live and speak in a foreign country with a language you only ever read in books to escape the horrors most of your life. I don't mean fairy tales, but like having to live and survive in say, Japan or France where, say, no-one speaks your language and you just did an evening class in it.

[Blu72]

With all due respect, if you have serious PTSD issues as you say then you need more help then this message board can provide. We are not professionals here. To be honest, I am not sure how you expect a BS to react to you and this entire situation. She is not going to be thinking of you with any type of respect, nor will she care about your PTSD issues as she feels you didnt give a crap about her or her family when you engaged in affair with her husband. Its just not reality to think she would have any feelings but complete contempt. It is what it is.

 

I do wish you luck in your healing. And i truly hope you are in IC to help you through this difficult time.

[Lobe]

So, you think affairs happen in functional relationships???

 

They do. In fact quite often. If you read some of the WS stories here you'll quickly learn that the perception of marital dissatisfaction was a result of the affair tainting the marriage, not a pre-existing condition that made the WS stray.

 

I'm sorry you're feeling defensive - a lot of the feedback you're getting here ends with frustration on the parts of those offering advice because they are living or have lived through the painful and disorienting disillusionment of affairs coming to an end.

 

Let me try phrasing the gist of it little differently.

 

As long as you are investing time and energy making excuses for how and why the affair happened that don't focus on your own recovery you will stay stuck.

[AlwaysGrowing]

I think your question has been answered a few times. Move on. Disengage.

 

You have stated that you still struggle with integrating your past with who you are now. Is it wise to seek out similar dysfunction?

 

Is it wise to compare ones life pains/betrayals against another? What would be the purpose of it? What would self be looking for? Is it for justification? Acknowledgement? Is self looking for justice? Is self owed justice by all? Is it healthy to allow that part of self to speak so loudly?

 

Others can not destroy our self-worth....we do that to ourselves.

 

I too, have had an unpleasant childhood. However, through it all...I knew...I mean I knew...there was something wrong with them. I stumbled a bit through my late teens and early 20's...then had an awakening. I was in charge of me, and could no longer look/point to others for my choices...or where I was in life.

 

Resiliency is often over-looked as a good quality. I believe that strength needs the foundation of resiliency for one to call oneself strong. For strength means to be resilient.

 

Everyone has trials in their life. Some have more. Life isn't fair. If we keep the focus on where we had no control it serves no purpose, there are no lessons to learn, no growth, no forward. Where we all have control is in ourselves. Our self respect. Integrity. Those two....do wonders for our sense of self/worth/esteem/value..,etc.

[whatatangledweb]

Do you want him to come back? If you don't but are worried you won't be able to say no. Then make sure he can't. Block his number or change your phone number. You lock down every way he could contact you.

 

I don't believe in just moving on that's really just rug sweeping to me. You work through it. You deal with the emotions and slowly build yourself up again. It takes time and work.

 

When you ask about coping to you mean if he comes back or now?

Edited August 30, 2016 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Lobe]

You sound very upset and you're lashing out - the energy you get from anger is useful when you can direct it rather than be whipped by it. Practical tools for moving on include the same basics. Find your ohmmmmm... We got your back.

 

1.) No contact. None whatsoever. Block social media, block his number, delete your chat app, ditch the mementos (flaming or smashing or dropping them in the mail with no to or from address can be cathartic...) If you see him in public, you walk the other way. If he shows up on your doorstep, you don't open the door and call the cops. If you work with him, find a different job or get transferred to another location... You get the idea. Focus your energy here. Tis better to ignore than be ignored.

 

2.) Be accountable. It takes energy to be a victim, but strength to be a survivor. Neither your xMM not his wife matter one iota in your life going forward and your goal now is indifference. Treatment for PTSD isn't going back to the war zone to mentally relive every trauma, it's making a conscious choice to move past those memories. Tapping, the elastic band method, prescription medication, guided meditation, exercise - all are tools you can explore in addition to "talk" therapy.

 

3.) Accept that you're not special. You're going to meet 100s of personalities here who lived out cookie cutter affairs in one of 3 roles: betrayed, wayward, or extramarital partner. While we start out thinking our situations are unique we quickly discover more similarities than differences. This is both heartbreaking and uplifting knowing we aren't unique.

 

4.) Pick your battles. There are people on LS ranging from sweet to tough love to trollish, coming at you from ultra-liberal to uber-conservative viewpoints,from a variety of socioeconomic statuses, religious beliefs, ages, education levels, gender identities, sexual orientations, and cultural backgrounds. Not everyone will be able to communicate something of value to you and so you quickly learn to take what you need, and leave the rest. You have more important things to invest your energy in than engaging with posters who may or may not be your cup of tea. The feistiness is often misinterpreted as attacking when it's really just overzealous encouragement. Take a deep breath and ask for clarification - chances are, its a misunderstanding.

 

5.) Don't give up. What you don't want to hear the most is probably what you need to hear the most. Some of the folks here who got the furthest up my grill when I first got here were the ones I learned the most from. And to be clear: even the people I outright disagree with, the ones who condescended or belittled me, proved valuable because sometimes getting advice you know is bad is every bit as valuable as getting sound advice. When someone gets your goat, dig a little deeper and try to understand what button they're pushing, and find the strength to look inside, like you have dealing with your FOO issues.

 

FWIW - we ALL have a backstory. Like I said, you may be in a unique position to be a leader. Maybe you can lead me. Here's my schtick:

 

My parents were an addict (gambling, booze, and religious piety) with an explosive temper and dirty old men friends who liked to finger 8 year olds and a codependent with borderline personality disorder. After growing up "living on the edge" as my mother exposed us to boyfriend after boyfriend, some of whom found a nubile teenage Lobe irresistible and an absentee father who refused to pay child support because my mother had trapped him and he owed us nothing, I married a physically abusive man who despite hospitalizing me a few times I thought I could save. I divorced him and married a childhood friend, a man who after 2 decades of being friends would find solace from his midlife crisis in fisting the lunch wagon lady when she threw his cat at him.

 

When I first went into IC after WH's affair I had to give my backstory. "Have you ever been diagnosed with any other disorders or been treated by a psychiatrist?" I jokingly said, "Yes - I suffer from ASS." She said, "What?!"

 

Alphabet Soup Syndrome.

 

I have, over my lifetime, been "diagnosed" or "treated" for:

 

ADHD (attention deficit hyperactivity disorder - I had a hard time sitting in school)

ODD (oppositional defiant disorder - a really hard time thinking grown ups were role models with any kind of worthy guidance to offer)

BDD (body dysmorphic disorder) and ED (eating disorder - I was bulimerexic through my teens)

BWS (battered wife syndrome)

Situational clinical paranoia and anxiety as a reaction to my first husband stalking me for months - there's no acronym for that but whatever

 

She said that my reaction to the betrayal was consistent with PTSD so I guess I'm waiting for XYZ now. Though I often suffer from insomnia so I suppose I have a zzzzzs disorder too...

 

Life isn't a p*ssing contest about who overcame the most. All of us have an after school special waiting to be written about our "issues." The value in coming to LS isn't proving you're the exception to the rule but finding sobriety and support from people who are every bit as f*ckedup as you.

 

Welcome to the LS club. We are here for you. Even when you don't want us to be. Maybe especially when you don't want us to be.

 

Peace out.

Edited August 30, 2016 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Autocorrect thinks it's smarter than me

[ShatteredLady]

Truly great post Lobe. You moved me & said so many things that I wanted to say....& some that I really needed to hear!

 

 

Checks in the post!

[Rockflower]

Midnight - yes, I am feeling that way too at the moment, which is why I am frightened.

 

WATW - yes, it's about both trying to cope now as well as if, more likely when, he comes back / I bump into him again.

 

I'm at the point of losing everything I built back up in my life after the last time round. The police have recorded me as vulnerable.

 

Lobe - thank you again. Yes, I am aware that I am angry and in a lot of distress Thank you again for your wise words. I think this is more about choosing my battles. Since psychological control and manipulation was a major player in much of my history, wordplay and certain characters are going to trigger me moreso when I am particularly upset.

 

Lobe - also wanted to say that nothing you wrote was new / unknown to me (apart from your history, but then there are similarities there) - I have tried all of those things you suggest, which are nonetheless helpful. Oh and the treatment like EFT, it's called EMDR, I've had that too.

Thank you again for your words x

Edited August 30, 2016 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Merge