Should I Stay or Should I Go Now?

[AR121]

After 14 years of marriage, 20 years of a relationship, 2 kids... I'm just done.

 

The spouse and I once had a fantastic relationship, but it fell on hard times way back in 1998. I got her pregnant, we were in no way, shape or condition to start a family, so I pushed her too hard into having an abortion. She did and regretted it before she had it. Things just never full recovered after that. But, we were too young to realize it. Plus, my guilt and her resentment kept us together. Our sex life made a big change after that.

 

Fast forward to now, over the first 10 years of marriage, sex occurred maybe 3-7 times per year. A few years once. The last four years, not at all.

 

How do I get out of this? I received numbers for her entitlements from an attorney, but I just feel so horrible wanting to leave. But, I am not myself in this relationship. Not the person I really am or who I want to be. I'm dissatisfied. I'm not looking to be happy or anything. I just want to be able to pursue a real relationship. I'm never having anymore children. I'm not getting married again. But, I do want a romantic relationship that's physical.

 

I'm considering just selling personal assets and getting a small apartment nearby. I know that could bite me in the ass. But, maybe that will get the ball rolling for her. I don't know. I can't get her to tell me what she wants and I feel so bad that I have to abandon her and the kids. I know she has depression issues. But, dammit, I'm developing them too and everyday I go to a darker place and my anxiety just gets worse.

 

I know I've changed and I feel I missed opportunities with people that could have lead to a fulfilling relationship.I know having a family you have to sacrifice, but do I keep showing them a ****ty relationship where mom and dad don't sleep together, the kids run the house and are used to as a way to keep mom insulated from dad so they can never have a real conversation?

 

One lawyer gave me a different perspective and said that it's up to me, to leave and develop a new relationship that has two adults that care for each other. I don't know... maybe thats just talk to justify bailing on them.

 

I'm tormented here. But, I can't communicate with her. The lack of intimacy forced me into a place where I internalize so much of myself and I can't say I'm happy with what I've become, but I don't see myself changing unless I make a grand mess out of everything.

 

Ok.. that was way too long. Sorry.

[standtall]

There are several things you need to look at before you consider divorce.

 

First, where are you located//ie state/province/country.

Second, how old are your children?

Third, does she work, and how much has she been contributing financially to the household for the duration of the marriage.

 

 

 

Divorce her. Having no sex for 4 years with a wife is just having an expensive, mean roommate....you will be better off long term. No sex is a deal breaker to most spouses in a marriage. Do not leave the house. This is considered abandonment in many areas. If your worried about being taken to the cleaners over spousal and child support, then I would consider several options.

 

1. Muscle through it until the kids are older...least favorable for most.

2. Change the dialogue for your purposes..ie get the divorce option out of her head until you're in a better position to divorce..ie get her back to work.

3. Divorce her now and bite the bullet.

4. Work on your marriage....which doesn't sound repairable.

[LastAcorn99]

I’m so sorry your marriage is struggling. Given what you shared, it looks like your wife is still struggling with the emotional and psychological aftermath of being involved in an abortion, despite the years that have gone by since the incident. I would strongly suggest that both you and your wife seek marriage counseling. You may especially want to encourage her to visit AbortionChangesYou.com -- a confidential web space for those who have been touched by abortion, whether recently or in the past. Sending prayers for healing and restoration to your marriage. Please keep us updated.

[basil67]

I will return with my best advice when the ear worm you gave me goes away. It's so intense that I cannot think

 

The Clash = Should I Stay or Should I Go

[road]

Seems that disposing of your and her child caused more problems then it solved. Rug sweeping this problem has done nothing to resolve this.

 

 

IC and MC.

[basil67]

Ear worm has gone. I'm good now.

 

Unfortunately I have only questions for you. Sorry to have nothing better at this stage, but I don't want to leap in without a good understanding.

 

First question I need to ask is whether or not your wife knows that you're this close to leaving. If yes, are you just receiving apathy in response?

 

How true that a partner's depression can bring us down too. How proactive has your wife been in trying to address the issues? Is she taking meds? They can change one's life around.

 

Also, as your wife is so depressed, is she a good candidate for being a single mother? It's tough at the best of times, but you may have to consider taking on a really large chunk of the parenting. You sound like the kind of dad who would do this...but I'm just throwing it out there in case you hadn't thought of this outcome.

[Marc878]

Try MC first. But find a good one not a kook

[AR121]

Wow. That's a lot of responses so quickly. I'll try to address all the questions this afternoon. Just getting settled into work after a morning of meetings.

 

Sorry about the ear worm. I've had that song in my head ever since I watched Strabger Things last weekend.

 

 

We did try marriage counseling. Well I did. She refused to go at first. I went for about 4 months until she showed up. I did use it as a good opportunity to take my son and see what can be done to manage his ADHD issues. But that's a different story

 

Though. The marriage counselor started out from the perspective that I don't want to get divorced. It's messy and expensive. After I finally got her there, I asked her during a session my spouse wasn't able to make it, Of she had a better understanding of why I feel the way I do and she completely agreed I don't have many options. My spouse doesn't want to be married but doesn't want to be divorced.

 

Btw. I have consulted a couple attorneys and have seen the figures from them regarding spousal, child support, equity distribution and mortgage deviation. It's a scary number.

[AR121]

I’m so sorry your marriage is struggling. Given what you shared, it looks like your wife is still struggling with the emotional and psychological aftermath of being involved in an abortion, despite the years that have gone by since the incident. I would strongly suggest that both you and your wife seek marriage counseling. You may especially want to encourage her to visit AbortionChangesYou.com -- a confidential web space for those who have been touched by abortion, whether recently or in the past. Sending prayers for healing and restoration to your marriage. Please keep us updated.

 

She has looked at sites like that before and after. She seems to have depression issues and eight years ago we acknowledged the elephant in the room and finally talked about it. It affected both of us. She tried counseling but gave up after two sessions, since she did not like 'talking.' I assume that talking about that caused the issue. She was on anti-depressing as for awhile and claimed she was suffering post partum two days after giving birth. While that's certainly possible, it seemed she was a little too eager to get the diagnosis and on medications.

 

As far as medications go, from the family provider and no follow up or counseling. After five years on it, I had to call her out since there seemed to be no change in her behavior. She weened off with the help of her doctor but no change in sexual desire or mood.

 

After a big talk last year, she said she does harbor resentment towards me regarding the abortion and she thinks I feel guilt for making her do it. I do. And that really caused many of my decisions regarding getting married and starting a family before I was truly ready. Oh and in pushing the issue when it came to intimacy and her contributions to the household finances

[Mr. Lucky]

Btw. I have consulted a couple attorneys and have seen the figures from them regarding spousal, child support, equity distribution and mortgage deviation. It's a scary number.

 

Stuck in a similarly incompatible marriage (with the cherry on top being my exW's affair), I came to the conclusion that all the financial and material things you're worried about was just so much "stuff" with little relation to my eventual happiness. The important things were my son and regaining my sense of self.

 

Don't make the common mistake of prioritizing the wrong things...

 

Mr. Lucky

[AR121]

There are several things you need to look at before you consider divorce.

 

First, where are you located//ie state/province/country.

Second, how old are your children?

Third, does she work, and how much has she been contributing financially to the household for the duration of the marriage.

 

 

 

Divorce her. Having no sex for 4 years with a wife is just having an expensive, mean roommate....you will be better off long term. No sex is a deal breaker to most spouses in a marriage. Do not leave the house. This is considered abandonment in many areas. If your worried about being taken to the cleaners over spousal and child support, then I would consider several options.

 

1. Muscle through it until the kids are older...least favorable for most.

2. Change the dialogue for your purposes..ie get the divorce option out of her head until you're in a better position to divorce..ie get her back to work.

3. Divorce her now and bite the bullet.

4. Work on your marriage....which doesn't sound repairable.

 

So, now that I have a moment to breath. I can respond thoroughly.

 

Im in PA

Kids, going to be 9 and 12

Third, she worked full time for a bit and made about 75% of what I earned at the time. Was unemployed for 18 months and it made more sense for her to stay home, since she couldn't find an equivalent job with good income. Since then, Part-time. Big issue for our family since we do need another income.

 

1. That was my original plan, but I've truly gone into a place where I feel like I'm missing chances at satisfying relationships. I don't EVER plan on marrying again and having more children, out of the question.

2. Spoke to a lawyer and he suggested that after looking at the numbers. I don't disagree on a certain level.

BUT! Big BUT here. When I've approached her about divorce and presented the numbers on what she is legally entitled to, her response: "So, after 9 years, I have no child support, no alimony, how am I going to take care of myself?" She then made a gun with her hand and mock shot herself.

When we talk about her current job prospects, she lays down a guilt trip and tells me how hard it will be to work and raise kids. I get it. This is why I worked so hard so she could minimize her work schedule. But, I'm getting nothing in return for my effort.

3. I'm so on the verge. But, I want some independence. That's why I began looking at apartments. Not what I want. But, at least living alone, I call my own shots.

4. I thought about how can I repair it? At least for the kids well-being. But after years of neglect and her never trying to connect, never asking "why are you sleeping on the couch? Why are you not talking to me?" I'm so disconnected. I've changed. I originally changed to entice her and give her reasons to want to be with me. No luck at all. Just backfired for both of us.

 

When I look at old pictures, I see the point where I was so close to contentment. But, the intimacy was missing.

[AR121]

Try MC first. But find a good one not a kook

 

I suggested that 8 years ago, but she said that never works.

 

I will say, my problem is, I have points where I am very vocal and we talked about the issues, but then I'd get placated and let them go.

 

My fault for not keeping up on things and being neglectful.

[AR121]

Stuck in a similarly incompatible marriage (with the cherry on top being my exW's affair), I came to the conclusion that all the financial and material things you're worried about was just so much "stuff" with little relation to my eventual happiness. The important things were my son and regaining my sense of self.

 

Don't make the common mistake of prioritizing the wrong things...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

 

If she was having an affair, I think I'd be fine. At least I'd know, she can be happy. Not with me, but with someone. I'd be fine with stepping aside. It sounds odd, but someone that hates intimacy is very disturbing.

 

I just feel like the last 15 years of our 20 year relationship were all about being a sperm donor and supporting everyone else and my emotional and physical needs were secondary. But, I still needed to be aware of everyone else's needs.

 

I'm more than willing to give MORE than I need to. But, I want to put us all in a position that we can recover. I'm fine with giving her a hefty child support. But, I want to share custody. I want to give her a nice settlement based on 3 years of spousal. I don't care that I have to rob from my future investments, I want her to have a savings to start over and paying a lump sum (rather than riding out monthly payments for three years) lets me rebuild and have an adequate place to live for myself and the kids.

 

I just hate the uncertainty of filing, going to court and not knowing where I'll go or how they can recover.

[AR121]

Ok... a lot of responding. Sorry if I sound so curt and a little bitter. I was talking to my friend about this and I'm in a little bit of a mood! But, I appreciate the response.

 

I can provide more details on the financial and advice I've been given. But, I needed a bit of a vent session I think.

[standtall]

Well if she has a degree and is employable, that helps but won't solve the spousal support. I am not sure how many years of a SAHM she has to be to earn her lifetime spousal support in PA, but I'm sure you're close. Child support for 2 for 6, and then 1 for 3 more years....hhmm. Do you have a fixed income or do you work OT? If it's fixed, it it what it is, if you work OT, cut it back for 2 yrs.

 

You need an attorney to cut some real numbers for you, but I would start building a life raft so you're not living under an overpass after you file.

 

Ain't no fault divorce grand?

[AR121]

Well if she has a degree and is employable, that helps but won't solve the spousal support. I am not sure how many years of a SAHM she has to be to earn her lifetime spousal support in PA, but I'm sure you're close. Child support for 2 for 6, and then 1 for 3 more years....hhmm. Do you have a fixed income or do you work OT? If it's fixed, it it what it is, if you work OT, cut it back for 2 yrs.

 

You need an attorney to cut some real numbers for you, but I would start building a life raft so you're not living under an overpass after you file.

 

Ain't no fault divorce grand?

 

 

Hmmm, none of the attorneys Consulted ever mentioned lifetime alimony. She does have 2 degrees. One in the same field I'm in. No OT, I'm salary.

 

So, what you are saying is I should continue with my dark thoughts if I don't get out of this now, or just tell her tomorrow, I'm done. Nothing personal, but I need to cut my losses now before it get's worse and I have nothing for the rest of my life.

[Mr. Lucky]

Nothing personal, but I need to cut my losses now before it get's worse and I have nothing for the rest of my life.

 

Isn't this how you really feel? If so, I'd be hiring an attorney and looking at suitable housing tomorrow...

 

Mr. Lucky

[standtall]

Nothing personal, but I need to cut my losses now before it get's worse and I have nothing for the rest of my life.

 

There you go...decision made.

[AR121]

There you go...decision made.

 

Wow.. yes. You guys are right.

 

I determined today after a horrible nights sleep, I'm going to start living my life as the person that I am. I've made so many choices that were to benefit the household and make life easier for them.

 

In order to finally put the nail in the coffin, I would like to say this to her: "I'm tired of not living as the person I want. You don't accept what the real me wants. We both have different needs and wants. Nothing personal, but the longer I stay, the more I have to lose. I do want to be a supportive father and co-parent our children together. I want to help you make the best transition possible to a new life. But, I can not continue to be married to you any longer."

 

Is that a good 'elevator pitch' for this?

[Mr. Lucky]

Certainly seems to sum up both your disconnect and desire for an amicable transition...

 

Mr. Lucky

[AR121]

Thanks Mr. Lucky. Is ill let you know how this goes.

[standtall]

Couldn't have said it better.

[AR121]

So, had the talk. It's as good as it can get. It wasn't messy. She's been prepared for this for months now. But, I contacted an attorney that I talked to early in the year and I'm moving forward to try and get an agreement out.

 

I want to try and make this as easy as possible. I don't know how well that will go. I presented numbers that I received from an attorney about a month ago and she doesn't agree with the figures for spousal and child support.

 

I went as far as estimating on the high-side for my income and the low side (what she currently earns at her contract position). So the figures are rough and the highest figure was close to what I estimated and close to what she wants per month. But, that is based on worst case scenario of her having a $10k per year income. Primary custody, and I'd just have visitation.

 

My goal, I presented to her, is 50/50 custody. I offered to pay support up to what she would receive for primary custody (until she gets established). But I would like to get the spousal at the same figure. Which is a higher figure than if we did go with a 50/50 split.

 

Now she is opposed to me paying her her share of the equity of the home (I'm willing to slightly over pay) and wants to sell, since my living in the house would influence the children in not wanting to move.

 

I'm not opposed to selling. But he mortgage is reasonable and at one time I offered her the house and full equity. But this would leave her cash poor and need to find a way to assume or refinance the home. It would give her a mortgage deviation though.

 

I did also offer just a full buy out on spousal and home equity. I can draw from my retirement (we are both at the same figures for retirement funds) since this dispersal would not be taxable for her while alimony would be. Three years of alimony and taxes on that would be fairly significant.

 

She also keeps talking about relocating to Florida or North Carolina. Now, I'm. It opposed to this. BUT, she needs to establish income and an adequate place to live before thinking of bringing the kids with. I don't feel that is an unreasonable request. The kids actually like the idea of moving away. She just needs to get her ducks in a row before bringing them down. I know I can oppose that she makes that move. But, if it gets her where she wants to be, I am happy to support her. We will make do and I have enough flexibility with work, I can visit often.

 

What advice can anyone offer? I'm I missing the mark on things? It's not like we have a ton of assets. We have a three bedroom mortgage at $1400 a month, the last appraisal (2010) came in at 215k. Right now, the last home in our development sold for $193. Our neighbor is trying to sell at $215 with no success. I think the market value is 195. But, I'm working off of $200k. That leaves $36000 in equity to split. After realtor fees and closing costs, that's a $10k split.

 

We have two cars paid off with equal value. Same in retirement funds (I probably have less) and I'll be providing medical insurance. No major valuables in the house otherwise

[Mr. Lucky]

She also keeps talking about relocating to Florida or North Carolina. Now, I'm. It opposed to this. BUT, she needs to establish income and an adequate place to live before thinking of bringing the kids with. I don't feel that is an unreasonable request. The kids actually like the idea of moving away. She just needs to get her ducks in a row before bringing them down. I know I can oppose that she makes that move. But, if it gets her where she wants to be, I am happy to support her. We will make do and I have enough flexibility with work, I can visit often.

 

How old are your kids?

 

From my POV, Dads don't "visit", they're involved daily in co-parenting their children. Not sure why you'd consider letting her take them out of state ???

 

Mr. Lucky

[AR121]

Hey Mr. Lucky.

 

I'm not opposed to her living out her life as she needs too. But, she needs to be able to establish stability before the kids move with. And the kids would have to want to go. But, I know with her, it's just a fantasy to escape reality. I don't think she would do it at all. So, I'm not worried about that happening.

 

But, we have a new wrinkle. While discussing finances and all that, she said, "Why don't you just put a bathroom in the basement and live down there?"

 

Now, the concept of nesting-in was brought up before, but she never seriously approached it.

 

I am fine with that. We need a solid agreement in place and details worked out. But, that could work for the next year or two. Our 12 year old daughter gave a 10 out of 10 for that plan.

 

The spouse says it's weird. But, it's our life and family and we can do what we want.

 

I guess nesting is a whole new discussion though.