Tayla Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 So then why does Paul admonish those who sin? Why does the entire New Testament teach the message of repentance? Good questions to pose! Perhaps you meant from Pauls writings and life choices he in part admonished the sins of those times. I am miffed that the entire New Testament comes down to repentance. I didn't find Jesus's message to love one another.. And the glory of his compassion to be of secondary concern. But hey! If you got that it was entirely about repenting .. Then we may be on different paths... All planned and orchestrated ... I'm still trying find out who's gods parents were ... Or how he came about... 1 Link to post Share on other sites
planning4later Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 There is a saying in the Talmud, which states that the people of Israel were only chosen because everyone else had rejected the offer. So maybe when a pious Jew goes to heaven, he might say to God, "Its wonderful to meet you, but next time please choose somebody else." Nope. God chose Israel for no reason or merit of their own. God had a purpose before any humans were born. He was going to have "his" portion. He was going to use them as his representatives. They were going to be opposed and hated BECAUSE THEY WERE HIS and also BECAUSE THE WORLD HATES HIM. The biggest problem in modern theology is that we center our theology around us. We think it's about what WE do and where WE fit in the plan. Nope. We are just chess pieces. Even Jesus told one of the arrogant, prideful Jews that God could turn a stone into a son of Abraham. God has his purposes. He will accomplish them. We can't stop it or speed it up. All we can do is submit and be part of it. That's the true gift he offers us--to be a part of HIS story. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Satu Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 Nope. God chose Israel for no reason or merit of their own. God had a purpose before any humans were born. He was going to have "his" portion. He was going to use them as his representatives. They were going to be opposed and hated BECAUSE THEY WERE HIS and also BECAUSE THE WORLD HATES HIM. The biggest problem in modern theology is that we center our theology around us. We think it's about what WE do and where WE fit in the plan. Nope. *We are just chess pieces. Even Jesus told one of the arrogant, prideful Jews that God could turn a stone into a son of Abraham. *God has his purposes. He will accomplish them. We can't stop it or speed it up. All we can do is submit and be part of it. That's the true gift he offers us--to be a part of HIS story. Are you really sure that you aren't a Muslim? And what are your feelings about arrogant, prideful Christians? Link to post Share on other sites
planning4later Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 Are you really sure that you aren't a Muslim? And what are your feelings about arrogant, prideful Christians? I'm not a Muslim. I simply teach what's in the Bible. I always joke that if you want to get a christian upset, teach them what's in the bible. I personally believe that in modern times, more opposition to gods truth is found within the so-called church than is found in the atheist circles. At least with the atheist circles, what you see is what you get. But with modern Christianity, the world gets deceived because it expects truth from us but doesn't get it. So what do I think about "arrogant and prideful Christians", you ask? I think that God always has his true followers that make up a small minority. And the big percentage, which usually coincides with the established social structure, is the fraudulent version. The bible refers to this fraudulent version as the whore. Am I insulting gods people? No. I wouldn't do that. But I'm insulting the frauds who aren't gods to begin with. Link to post Share on other sites
Satu Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 snip Am I insulting gods people? No. I wouldn't do that. But I'm insulting the frauds who aren't gods to begin with. Sorry to say it, but it is you who is both arrogant and prideful. You've set yourself up as the judge of who is a proper Christian and who isn't. That prerogative is above your station. Prideful, arrogant, and vain, sums it up well. Take care. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
planning4later Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 snip Sorry to say it, but it is you who is both arrogant and prideful. You've set yourself up as the judge of who is a proper Christian and who isn't. That prerogative is above your station. Prideful, arrogant, and vain, sums it up well. Take care. Would you say the same about John the Baptist? He called people vipers, snakes, and warned them of the coming wrath. You know what Jesus said about him? He said John the Baptist was the highest man born of a woman. I'm sorry but you must be disabused of your false notion of arrogance. Speaking the truth and condemning sin does not equate to arrogance. Am I elevating MYSELF? No I'm not. Link to post Share on other sites
losangelena Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 I'd also like examples of god's "judgement," as well. What exactly is happening that points to that? I personally don't think God thinks any more favorably about the U.S. than other countries. I find that notion a bit eye-rolly, to be honest. How laughably nationalistic. As far as I remember the bible, it says that God judges all equally. Still waiting for a reply to this. How is god "judging" America? What is going on in this country that's a result of god's "judgement?" 1 Link to post Share on other sites
planning4later Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 Still waiting for a reply to this. How is god "judging" America? What is going on in this country that's a result of god's "judgement?" Are you looking for an answer that makes sense in human terms? Then you won't get a satisfactory answer. This is because God makes the rules, not humans. God is the measure of all things, not humans. To say otherwise is to be a humanist--a very dangerous position. Firstly, you are partly correct that all humans do wrong. This is a biblical idea. The bible even says that all sins will be forgiven. Yep. However, it says only one sin will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the next to come. That sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. This means one of two things: 1) a person rejects the voice of truth when it's sent by God and therefore rejects the only means possible for them to be saved, or 2) a person attributes to the Holy Spirit what is actually the work of satan, and attributes to the work of Satan what is actually the work of the holy spirt. Either way, the Holy Spirit is rejected and a man literally has no other hope. This applies to America because we, as a whole, are blaspheming the Holy Spirit. The church, I regret to say, is doing likewise. This is VERY dangerous territory. Why? Because gods judgement doesn't begin with immoral Hollywood, atheism, even abortion. It begins with the CHURCH. It begins with his people. God does all things FOR his people. When his people reject him, as Israel did, God will bring judgement, as he did against Israel. So the correct barometer to predict gods judgement is not popular culture or any of those things. Take a look at the church, and you will know exactly what will happen. The church at large is indistinguishable from our culture. The church at large doesn't teach the truth. The church at large doesn't teach the TRUE gospel. This is why gods judgement is close. Link to post Share on other sites
BC1980 Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 Are you looking for an answer that makes sense in human terms? Then you won't get a satisfactory answer. This is because God makes the rules, not humans. God is the measure of all things, not humans. To say otherwise is to be a humanist--a very dangerous position So if God makes the rules and God is the measure of all things, how have you found the truth, and we have not? How can you presume to know who God is judging? How do you have a special understanding that we don't if God is the measure of all things? To presume that you have special knowledge others don't and to refuse to even consider another person's opinion is, to me, infinitely more dangerous than what you have described as dangerous. Link to post Share on other sites
planning4later Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 (edited) So if God makes the rules and God is the measure of all things, how have you found the truth, and we have not? How can you presume to know who God is judging? How do you have a special understanding that we don't if God is the measure of all things? To presume that you have special knowledge others don't and to refuse to even consider another person's opinion is, to me, infinitely more dangerous than what you have described as dangerous. God has revealed himself in the scriptures, written by the prophets, testified to by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit, itself, is God and therefore is the highest testimony. If a person doesn't recognize scripture as truth, it's because they don't possess the Holy Spirit. It's expected that my comments will be laughed and scorned at, as well, since it has to be this way. God reveals and God blinds eyes (John 12:40). He chooses who to reveal to and who to blind. I only say this all because it was asked. Edited September 10, 2016 by planning4later Link to post Share on other sites
BC1980 Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 God has revealed himself in the scriptures, written by the prophets, testified to by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit, itself, is God and therefore is the highest testimony. If a person doesn't recognize scripture as truth, it's because they don't possess the Holy Spirit. It's expected that my comments will be laughed and scorned at, as well, since it has to be this way. God reveals and God blinds eyes (John 12:40). He chooses who to reveal to and who to blind. I only say this all because it was asked. I'm not laughing at or scorning you. I'm genuinely asking, so I can understand. So, because I have some differing opinions from you, you think that God revealed himself to you but not me? But surely you realize that any text is open to interpretation and will be interpreted differently depending on who reads it. I'm just wondering why you are so certain that your reading of the Bible is from God, but mine probably isn't. Link to post Share on other sites
planning4later Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 (edited) I'm not laughing at or scorning you. I'm genuinely asking, so I can understand. So, because I have some differing opinions from you, you think that God revealed himself to you but not me? But surely you realize that any text is open to interpretation and will be interpreted differently depending on who reads it. God didn't choose to reveal his spirit to me because I'm special. "Christianity" has brainwashed people into thinking this. The religion elevates the sinner and makes us the center, as if we are just so precious that God couldn't help but love us. The truth is the opposite. All of us, including me, are deprived and wicked. And God chooses to have mercy on whom he has mercy, and compassion on those he has compassion. (That's an actual verse.) This whole notion is hated and rejected among Christianity today. But to say anything else is to deny god's total sovereignty. He runs the show. And he can do whatever he wants. If he chose to allow ALL of us to follow our natural path into hell, he would still be holy and good. This, again, is hard to accept. So I don't think I'm "special". I just think God revealed himself to me to accomplish whatever plan he has. And because of this I'm grateful. Im just wondering why you are so certain that your reading of the Bible is from God, but mine probably isn't. Let me start by asking if, firstly, you believe the bible is the inspired writing of prophets and holy men who received inspiration by the Holy Spirit and that it therefore contains the mind of God himself. Do you believe that? Edited September 10, 2016 by planning4later Link to post Share on other sites
BC1980 Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 Let me start by asking if, firstly, you believe the bible is the inspired writing of prophets and holy men who received inspiration by the Holy Spirit and that it therefore contains the mind of God himself. Do you believe that? No, I don't believe that statement. If there were a way to prove that statement, I would believe it. I think that's the big problem. There is no way to prove or disprove that the Bible contains the mind of God. That belief is purely opinion. I understand that you believe the Bible is the mind of God with your whole heart, but your belief is based on emotion and gut instinct. I'm not discounting those reasons, but I've not had similar ones. Link to post Share on other sites
planning4later Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 No, I don't believe that statement. If there were a way to prove that statement, I would believe it. I think that's the big problem. There is no way to prove or disprove that the Bible contains the mind of God. That belief is purely opinion. Certain things cannot be proven by the scientific method. This is an example. However, there is plenty of physical evidence to show that everything documented in the Bjble actually happened. With each piece of evidence, this helps to support the bible more. However, I would challenge the fact that you need scientific proof for this subject. In my experience that is a smokescreen. It's a way to excuse oneself from having to answer to Gods requirements. The philosopher Augustine argued that the rational mind does not direct a person's beliefs. He said the WILL directs a person's beliefs. This means that basically humans believe what we WANT to believe (when scientific proof cannot be applied). I understand that you believe the Bible is the mind of God with your whole heart, but your belief is based on emotion and gut instinct. I'm not discounting those reasons, but I've not had similar ones. Remember that there is a higher level of proof than science, according to the Bjble. This proof is the testimony of the holy spirt, who is God himself. Link to post Share on other sites
BC1980 Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 However, I would challenge the fact that you need scientific proof for this subject. In my experience that is a smokescreen. It's a way to excuse oneself from having to answer to Gods requirements. The philosopher Augustine argued that the rational mind does not direct a person's beliefs. He said the WILL directs a person's beliefs. This means that basically humans believe what we WANT to believe (when scientific proof cannot be applied). If we believe what we want to believe (without regard to reason), then how much weight do we put on our beliefs? All our beliefs are based on our personal biases. On a similar note, I don't think you can will yourself to believe something. I'm not sure how much control we have over our beliefs. I started discussing that idea in another thread. I've tried to will myself to believe in God, and that doesn't work, so, clearly, I don't have control over what I believe. Link to post Share on other sites
BlueIris Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 All definitions and interpretations of the Word of God are human and therefore no longer the Word of God. It’s a tough business to be in since its teachings inherently undermine its existence. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Taramere Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 God didn't choose to reveal his spirit to me because I'm special. "Christianity" has brainwashed people into thinking this. The religion elevates the sinner and makes us the center, as if we are just so precious that God couldn't help but love us. The truth is the opposite. All of us, including me, are deprived and wicked. What wrong have you specifically committed, that requires you to alternately flagellate and comfort yourself with this "I'm a bad person....all humans are bad people" thinking? Attachment to this kind of thinking doesn't tend to come out of nowhere. It's generally triggered by fairly unpleasant, traumatic or just unwholesome circumstances. Link to post Share on other sites
planning4later Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 What wrong have you specifically committed, that requires you to alternately flagellate and comfort yourself with this "I'm a bad person....all humans are bad people" thinking? Attachment to this kind of thinking doesn't tend to come out of nowhere. It's generally triggered by fairly unpleasant, traumatic or just unwholesome circumstances. It's in Bible. That's why I believe it. All of the following people concurred with it: Moses, Joshua, John the Baptist, Paul, Simon/Peter, David, Solomon, and John. Link to post Share on other sites
planning4later Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 All definitions and interpretations of the Word of God are human and therefore no longer the Word of God. It’s a tough business to be in since its teachings inherently undermine its existence. You sound like an existentialist. I suppose this comes down to the philosophical question of whether words describe something objective and separate from the words themselves, or whether the words are all there is. You are taking the latter position. Link to post Share on other sites
Satu Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 snip You sound like an existentialist. You sound like a fanatical Muslim. Link to post Share on other sites
planning4later Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 snip You sound like a fanatical Muslim. At least the Muslims would die for their beliefs. That's more than I can say for most American Christians whose religion is nothing more than means to an end. So in that regard I take it as a compliment. Now, if you'd like to open up a debate on Christianity vs Islam and why I am clearly not Muslim, I'd be happy to. Link to post Share on other sites
Noproblem Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 Every civilization that goes up, eventually goes down. you call it God punishment, I call it Karma because all of the older civilizations went up on the expense of others' blood and suffering. Link to post Share on other sites
planning4later Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 Every civilization that goes up, eventually goes down. you call it God punishment, I call it Karma because all of the older civilizations went up on the expense of others' blood and suffering. One kingdom will rise up and never come down. “He [Jesus] will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”” ~Luke 1:32-33 NIV Every prophecy in Bible has come true so far. Link to post Share on other sites
Taramere Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 It's in Bible. That's why I believe it. All of the following people concurred with it: Moses, Joshua, John the Baptist, Paul, Simon/Peter, David, Solomon, and John. As far as I can see, just from my observations of how people and society tends to tick along, when you label people as wicked, it tends to produce negative behaviour. In some cases, the negative behaviour might be related to depression, low self esteem etc resulting in people making poor life choices. Depression and low self esteem is often tied up with activities like substance abuse. In other cases, the negativity might be turned outwards in the form of aggression towards other people who the aggressive person has labelled as "wicked". The process by which people are brainwashed into carrying out atrocities on other human beings often involves promoting precisely the kind of thinking you're promoting here. I've no idea what you think of people who participate in violence and bloodshed and justify it on religious grounds, but to my mind their behaviour goes against the very fundamental tenet of "Thou Shalt Not Kill". It would also seem to encompass a number of sins...particularly wrath. If people are fundamentally sinners, born sinners etc....then okay. I can't say whether or not that's the truth. It sounds like a subjective position, influenced by certain theological writings, to me - but people are entitled to hold it if they wish. If those beliefs lead to them encouraging, enabling or carrying out criminal, violent acts then that's obviously a very different matter. Which is where we have a problem. Because we live in a world where absolute atrocities that very clearly break Commandments and encompass all manner of sins are regularly being carried out in the name of fundamentalist religious beliefs. It might be the case that we're all born sinners but it seems to me that some people put greater effort into leading decent, commandment-abiding lives than others. And the irony is that a lot of those people don't even seem to abide by religious codes so much as their own moral codes. If somebody is committing evil, supporting evil and spreading evil...and using religion as an excuse, that seems like the most punishable form of sin imaginable. It seems like Blasphemy - to sin in such major ways, and to argue that you're doing it in the name of God. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
BC1980 Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 You sound like an existentialist. I suppose this comes down to the philosophical question of whether words describe something objective and separate from the words themselves, or whether the words are all there is. You are taking the latter position. I believe that the reader brings the meaning to words. I don't believe that words have an objective, universal meaning. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
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