Where do we go from here?

[Asleepinthedeep]

Hello!

 

I should have posted on here earlier; this has been a rough year. My wife and I met when we were 18 and 15 (1999) me being older. We had a bunch of rough patches in our teens and early 20's. We got married in 2006, had our first child in 2007, and second in 2011. We laugh together, I only work 40 hours per week, she had been a stay at home mother, I helped with the chores, built a decent career, bought a home, managed finances and we have a always had an active sexual relationship.

 

She suffers from fits of depression in the fall and winter and she is upbeat and optimistic in the spring and summer (she has never sought treatment aside from a few months of therapy and both of her siblings are bipolar). These depressed times make her very jealous and needy, so since we have been married I have severed ties with a lot of friends and have become emasculated which made me insecure and probably not very attractive to her. I hate to bring this up because she hates when I do, but I think it's relevant.

 

The year before we got married she had a one night stand and told me that she was unsure of her identity, and wanted to be independent. She wanted to leave me to move in with her brother. We didn't have children at the time, so I didn't put up a fight. She wanted to see me often while she was gone, so I stayed most weekends with her. She returned to live at our apartment the following spring, and told me she wanted to be my wife. We married and had children, they're great, well rounded, and smart. A few years ago we decided to an abortion, she being afraid because of how little patience she has with the two and me because we were barely scraping by financially. We both immediately regretted it and were ashamed. The following year she was pregnant again and we thought we could redeem ourselves, we became excited, and told everyone.

 

Unfortunately the pregnancy was ectopic and my wife went though some grueling and painful surgeries to terminate it. We were both devastated and I wasn't fully there for her. I know it was more painful for her than I, but she also wasn't for me. She doesn't come out and say what she needs or how she is feeling. The following year my wife's super awesome, loving grandmother whom we both adored and my wife was closest to passed away. She became depressed, emotionally and detached this lasted until late winter of this year. Last year I landed a good job and our financial burdens were melting away. We bought a great home and things seemed to be going well.

 

This spring she had a one night stand with a complete stranger. She told me a week after, she seemed excited. We argued that night and in the end I told her that it was just sex and I could forgive her, but she said she was obsessed and wanted to see him again. She wanted to be "polyamorous" and see him and me. I was tried to stand my ground, but she said she would leave. I was upset she said she wanted a divorce. She was showing no remorse or sympathy. I was weak and caught off guard. So this is when my weakness consumed me. I fell into depression, slept very little, lost 15 pounds in 2 weeks. I would come home and she would be super happy and I was a wreck. She urged me to see someone else, so I could see how exciting it was. So, I met someone, talked to her for a couple of weeks via text and had a friendly date at a bar (I came straight home after). Well this was a ticket for my wife, so she started scouring dating sights and craigslist of all places. The woman that I met was very physically attracted to me and in my weakness and desire, I slept with her on our second date.

 

My wife then met someone, went to a bar with him and drove home at 2am drunk, and had slept with him. I was furious! Not only that she slept with, but also she was so drunk she could hardly walk. Our affairs went on for a couple of months, all the while she had this crazy sex drive, and we continued to have sex. She didn't have a lot of self doubt and her normal awkward insecure self vanished. But now she is returning to normal with the self doubt, negative self loathing, our affairs have ended, and she doesn't talk about it or her feelings. I have regained my confidence and want closure, so today I came home (we have about 15 minutes between me arriving from work and her leaving for work) I told her I want closure now while I am strong. She says she has the urge to leave, but loves me and doesn't want to lose our friendship. I told her that I don't know how I'll feel, but she has to make a decision. I asked her to get to the core of that urge, so we can either rebuild our relationship or she can go. I'm at a loss.

 

Please help

[Gemma1]

It honestly sounds like she may be somewhat bipolar too. She was in a manic state before, that's why she seemed so happy despite the fact that you were miserable and she was clearly doing wrong. She couldn't HELP but be happy because that's what mania is.

 

I think she needs a psychiatrist, and you need to talk to someone too so that you can heal from what she's put you through. But I still think you should dump her. She's not a good life partner.

[BettyDraper]

It honestly sounds like she may be somewhat bipolar too. She was in a manic state before, that's why she seemed so happy despite the fact that you were miserable and she was clearly doing wrong. She couldn't HELP but be happy because that's what mania is.

 

I think she needs a psychiatrist, and you need to talk to someone too so that you can heal from what she's put you through. But I still think you should dump her. She's not a good life partner.

 

I agree. Hypersexuality is very common during manic phases.

Forcing a spouse to cut ties with friends who are not hurting the marriage is controlling and abusive.

[Mr. Lucky]

Please help

 

Can't help but wonder in situations like yours when does self-preservation kick in?

 

I'd give her an ultimatum - address her demons (I'm not qualified to list them all) through therapy/treatment/meds and give you a glimpse of a normal life or you're going to begin formal separation and divorce proceedings.

 

If she's determined to burn down the house, you and your kids don't have to remain inside. You have a responsibility to them and that means putting yourself in a functioning and survivable position.

 

In other words, if she won't change you'll have to. Plan accordingly...

 

Mr. Lucky

[standtall]

Whats the point in being married? Neither one of you now are acting like it. You are sharing your wife...sexually with other men....they get the greatest hits, and you get the BS. I would think that your decision should be crystal clear...divorce.

[Asleepinthedeep]

Thanks for the responses. I wish self preservation would have kicked in. I had it until the kids came. I didn't have a family growing up. I went back and forth between a very young detched single mother with a physically abusive boyfriend and a foster home where I recieved no emotional attention. It wasn't until I met my wife and her family that I actually felt loved and appreciated.

 

I never wanted to be married and have children, this we both agreed on for most of our 7 years of dating each other. So when we got married, then decided to have children I really wanted to make it the life I never had. Just after we had our second child who is full of energy and was a difficult infant, my wife became very stressed, said that we would be better off without her there and threatened to leave. I believe this is when I lost that last shred of myself. I went into a mode where all of my energy was focused on keeping the family together.

 

I see that now and I also see that I don't process my emotions well. I bury them and jump right into fix it mode without processing them. I think this has served me well in my career where I have to lead a group of people. When the ship goes down I immediately react in a logical manner without hesitation.

 

My foster brother (best friend and the person I was closest to growing up) has been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia and when I found out, I thought yeah i knew that. I always had to be the rational one, so that I could keep him out of trouble. It seems like I was conditioned for this type of relationship as my mom too was damaged. I am aware of all of this, I am a strong person, just don't know any other way.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Asleepinthedeep

[Gemma1]

I understand but there comes a point when holding your family together is actually bad for the kids.

 

The biggest rift my step father (adopted father) and I ever had was when he took my mother back after she cheated on him and divorced him. When she came crawling back, he forgave her and tried to get her to remarry him. He was too good for her and letting her back into our lives made me so angry that I acted out and rebelled against him. I ended up moving out while still in high school. We have since repaired our relationship but it's the biggest thing that ever came between us (and they are still divorced - turns out she was still with her affair partner while trying to reconcile with my dad).

 

Don't underestimate your kids. You are obviously a loving father. You can still be that while separated from their mother. And if you leave her and build a life for yourself without her, you can retain their respect.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Gemma1

[Asleepinthedeep]

We have been able to remain civil in front of the children. I know my oldest senses a change though. My wife is falling back into depression. This morning she was crying and said that she gets to a point where she feels like she has everything under control, then it starts to fall apart. She said she feels like a feather pillow that has been ripped ooen and the peices of her went flying everywhere.

 

She is always so irritated with the childen and short tempered. I'm afraid that if we seperate she will get the children and I don't think that would be healthy. Also this morning the girls and I had a jam sesh, our house is full of music (my wife and I are musicians). The gals where singing while I played guitar and when we finished my wife seemed upset. She always says I get to be the good guy while she has to be the one in charge. Am I wrong to think thats bs? She makes the choice to be controlling. Maybe she was right when she said we'd be better off without her. I think if she were healthy it would be better for her to stay. I just cant convince her to get help.

[Mr. Lucky]

I think if she were healthy it would be better for her to stay. I just cant convince her to get help.

 

Have you thought about an intervention with people who she trusts or is close to? Family? Church? Friends?

 

You'll need to try and force her hand...

 

Mr. Lucky

[BluesPower]

Listen, I have lived with this type of stuff for 26 years. Not exactly the same, I would have never put up with her sleeping around like she has.

 

But the depression and stuff, yeah I have done it all.

 

You cannot fix her ever. No matter what you try to do, you will never ever fix her. I have tried and it does not work, please believe me. Also, you are actually enabling her to continue with what she has been doing. In other words, you are actually hurting her by staying with her.

 

You think that you love her and are doing the right thing. Besides the above, you are allowing her to erode any self-respect and man hood that you ever had. You are a cuckold husband. Look it up if you don't understand that.

 

As far as the kids go, 1) with her bi-polar issues and other issues, besides the infidelity, there is a strong chance that you may be able to get full custody. If not, she may make a mistake later that will allow you full custody. 2) At the very least you will get joint custody and you can keep an eye on the that way.

 

What is going on will destroy you sooner or later, please trust someone that has been there.

 

Your children will never, ever be better off living in this type of situation. I have also lived that.

 

You have to divorce her as soon as possible.

 

If you don't, the issues that you will have later in life, and the issues that, most importantly your children will have, WILL BE ALL YOUR FAULT.

 

It will be your fault because you are afraid to do what has to be done. Now is the time to show real courage and love for your children by getting out of this situation.

 

I spent my entire adult live living in this type of situation, and brother it is not worth it in any way.

 

Please listen and do what has to be done...

Edited September 25, 2016 by BluesPower

[Gemma1]

You may have kept things hidden for now but the older they get, the more they'll understand. Your wife is mental. It's not going to go away. It's just going to get worse. And eventually it's going to do irrevocable damage to her relationship with her kids. Trust me, I've been the kid in this situation. My mom also liked to tell my dad that she was always the "bad" one and he always got to be the good guy. The reality of it was that she made herself the bad guy because of how she acted towards us (short tempered, like your wife). He was just trying to balance things out by being the nice guy. Otherwise what would our lives have been like? Miserable.

 

You WILL be better off without her. And your kids will probably eventually need a safe haven from her. That needs to be you! And you can't be that safe haven if you're too busy doing everything you can to make this relationship work. If you don't get full custody you can at least get 50%, and when they are 13 they can make the choice themselves to come live with you full time.

[Asleepinthedeep]

Mr. Lucky,

I don't know anyone that she trusts. She thinks her family doesn't like her half of the time. She used to trust her sister, but for the most part until the last month or so she had had shut them out since this began. They all do love her of course and have been reaching out to me for answers to whats going on. I asked her why she hasn't been talking with them and she said they will all hate her because she wants to leave me. We moved to the city in 2010 and it wasn’t until this year that she made friends, and she questions their intentions as well.

 

I think it would be best that we seperate, but I would like for her to get some help before that happens. I watched her sister go through this and eventually get help. It was hard to watch her sister do it on her own she was very reckless and self destructive. Now that her sister is aware of the bipolar she is happily married, joyful and just wrapping up a masters degree. Her husband does say that she can be a pain in the ass sometimes, but she actually admits that its the bipolar and is self aware and takes the necessary steps to be healthy.

[Downtown]

Depressed times make her very jealous and needy, so since we have been married I have severed ties with a lot of friends.... I don't know anyone that she trusts.

Asleep, I agree with other respondents that her periods of reckless behavior and hyper-sexuality are warning signs for bipolar-1, which her two sisters apparently suffer from. Her irrational jealousy and inability to trust, however, are not bipolar traits. Rather, they are warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), which my exW suffers from.

 

Moreover, you state that -- when she was 21, the year before you married -- she "told me that she was unsure of her identity." Significantly, "unstable self-image or sense of self" is one of the nine defining traits for BPD. That is, it is one of the nine behavioral traits used in diagnosing BPD. In contrast, having a weak fragile self identity is NOT a trait for bipolar.

 

I mention BPD because, if your W really has been experiencing bipolar-1 in the past year, there is a nearly 50% chance of her also exhibiting full-blown BPD as well. See Table 2 at 2008 Study in JCP.

 

I watched her sister go through this and eventually get help.

If your W really does suffer from BPD and bipolar, she likely will be far harder to treat than her sister, who you say suffers only from bipolar. Whereas bipolar usually can be treated quite successfully by swallowing a pill, medication will not make a dent in BPD. Moreover, it is rare for a BPDer to have the self awareness and ego strength required for staying in therapy long enough to make a real difference.

 

I therefore suggest you see a psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you and your two children are dealing with. I also suggest that, while you're looking for a good psych, you read about BPD warning signs to see if they seem to apply.

 

An easy place to start reading is my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs. If most sound very familiar, I would suggest you also read my more detailed description of them at my posts in Rebel's Thread. Also, I describe the behavioral differences I've seen between BPDers (e.g., my exW) and bipolar-1 sufferers (my foster son) at 12 BPD/Bipolar Differences. If those descriptions ring many bells, I would be glad to join the other respondents in discussing them with you. Take care, Asleep.

[Asleepinthedeep]

She does display almost all of the traits of bpd. This kept coming up in my research of bipolar, but I overlooked it. I really hope its not too late for our oldest. My wife stayed home to take care of the kids and when our second came she was three and my wife being stressed with the second was really hard on her. My oldest went from being such a joy to having mood swings and physically disconnected, she is awkward toward affection now and will be fine with a task and then the next day be overwhelmed and crying that she cant possibly complete it

[BluesPower]

I say again. You cannot fix her.

 

You really need to get your children and yourself out of this situation.

[Downtown]

She does display almost all of the traits of bpd. This kept coming up in my research of bipolar, but I overlooked it.

It may be worth your while to follow the link I gave above for the 12 differences I've seen in BPD and bipolar behaviors. Also, please remember that having one does not rule out having the other too. As I noted, about half of the folks suffering from a bipolar-1 mood swing in the past year also suffer from BPD.

 

I really hope its not too late for our oldest.... My oldest went from being such a joy to having mood swings and physically disconnected, she is awkward toward affection now and will be fine with a task and then the next day be overwhelmed and crying that she cant possibly complete it.

It may be prudent to have your 9-year-old evaluated by a child psychologist -- or, at least, go to a psych yourself and ask his opinion. Meanwhile, avoid jumping to conclusions. It is common for 9-year-olds to exhibit strong BPD traits occasionally. And, when the hormones surge at puberty, it is common for teens to exhibit strong BPD traits. This is why psychologists are reluctant to diagnose BPD before the age of 18.

[wmacbride]

I would be cautious in self diagnosing her or taking opinions online about her mental health as fact.

 

Getting her to a psychiatrist could be helpful, ut int he meantime, what are you going to do to protect yourself and your children from her behvaior?

[Downtown]

I would be cautious in self diagnosing her or taking opinions online about her mental health as fact.

Wmacbride, all of us participating in this thread agree with your statement. There is a world of difference, however, between spotting warning signs and making a diagnosis. Before Asleep graduated high school, he already could identify the selfish and very grandiose classmates -- without knowing how to diagnose Narcissistic PD. He could identify the class drama queen -- without being able to diagnose Histrionic PD. He could spot the kids having no respect for laws or other peoples' property or feelings -- without diagnosing Antisocial PD. And he could recognize the very shy and over-sensitive classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD.

 

Similarly, he will be able to spot strong BPD traits when they occur. The main reason they are so easy to spot is that we all exhibit these traits to some degree -- and, at various stages of our lives, we all are on the high end of the BPD trait spectrum. During early childhood, for example, we all behave like BPDers on a 24/7 basis. And, when our hormones start surging during the early teens, many of us start behaving that way again for several years. Another reason they are easy to spot is that there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as inability to trust, temper tantrums, unstable self identity, and always being "The Victim."

 

Of course, being able to spot these warning signs will not enable Asleep to diagnose his wife's issues. Yet, like learning warning signs for stroke and heart attack, learning those for BPD may help him avoid very painful situations -- e.g., it may help him protect his own children. And it may help him avoid taking his W back, avoid thinking he can fix her, avoid running into the arms of another woman just like her, and avoid the expectation that she is going to recover quickly -- as her sister has done -- by simply swallowing a pill that targets bipolar disorder.

[Asleepinthedeep]

Downtown, your posts have been very insightful and I appreciate everyones support. I have been following your links. She does show more of the bpd traits, but it's seasonal. She does show signs of bpd always, but the self image is negative when down or stable and grandiose when up. The codependency rings true for my state and now that I'm aware of it I feel better. I think I'll see a psychiatrist as well.

 

I will be going ahead with seperation. I wont be retuning to a relationship with her. First I would like her to get help while she is covered on my insurance. Everything is in my name except some credit card debt. I am going to ask her to grant me full custody with being able to visit on a relaxed schedule. Our home is just blocks from the school, her name is not on it, and I would like them to keep structure. I will sign the car that's paid for over to her. Does this sound fair?

 

I've known couples that have remained legally married, but seperated until divorce was necessary. Is this a bad idea and if so, why?

[Mr. Lucky]

I've known couples that have remained legally married, but seperated until divorce was necessary. Is this a bad idea and if so, why?

 

In your case, what factors push you to separate but not divorce? One usually leads to the next...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Asleepinthedeep]

I make plenty of money to raise the kids on my own; I've been doing that all along. My wife doesn't even make enough money to cover her own rent went she moves out. I don't want her to go to jail for not paying child support. She's only worked a total of maybe a year in the last eight, and she usually quits a job within a few months. Also, I've looked into the legality of it and it seems like a pain in the ass. I'm honestly pretty jaded and have a lot of work to do on myself before even considering getting married again. So, until one of us decides to get married, why not wait?

[Downtown]

The codependency rings true for my state and now that I'm aware of it I feel better. I think I'll see a psychiatrist as well.

I suggest that, when you see your psychiatrist, you see one who has not seen or treated your W. That way he will be ethically bound to protect YOUR best interests, not hers. I mention this because, if your W really is a high functioning BPDer, it is unlikely that her psychiatrist will tell her -- much less tell you. Instead, he likely will tell her only about the co-occurring disorders such as bipolar (if that applies).

 

There are several reasons why therapists typically are loath to tell a BPDer the name of her primary disorder. The result is that, whenever you are seeing strong and persistent BPD warning signs in your spouse's behavior, your best chance of obtaining a candid professional opinion is to visit a psychologist or psychiatrist who has not treated her.

 

I will be going ahead with separation. I wont be returning to a relationship with her. First I would like her to get help while she is covered on my insurance.

Getting her help while you remain married -- so she remains covered by your insurance -- makes the most sense if your psychiatrist tells you it sounds like she has bipolar but not BPD. Yet, if he agrees with you that she exhibits strong BPD traits (based on your description to him), there is little chance she will remain in therapy long enough to make a real difference. I would be surprised if as much as 1% of BPDers will do so. Although most major cities offer excellent BPD treatment programs (e.g., DBT and CBT), it is rare for a BPDer to have the self awareness and ego strength required to be successful in those programs.

 

With my BPDer exW, for example, I spent a small fortune sending her to weekly sessions with six different psychologists and also went with her to three MCs. That weekly activity went on for 15 years at great expense. Sadly, it did not make a dent in her BPD behaviors. Not one dent.

 

Hence, if you decide that your W exhibits strong and persistent BPD traits, it would be a big mistake to think she is going to recover quickly like her sister did (by swallowing pills to manage bipolar). Even if she does work hard in therapy instead of playing mind games with the therapist -- a very unlikely outcome -- it probably would take several years at least before seeing substantial progress.

 

Everything is in my name except some credit card debt. I am going to ask her to grant me full custody with being able to visit on a relaxed schedule. Our home is just blocks from the school, her name is not on it, and I would like them to keep structure. I will sign the car that's paid for over to her. Does this sound fair?

Sounds fair to me. The person to ask, however, is your lawyer.

 

I've known couples that have remained legally married, but separated until divorce was necessary. Is this a bad idea and if so, why?

If you really are married to an emotionally unstable wife who is refusing to address her issues in therapy, it is in your best interests to divorce ASAP. Her instability could get much worse, making divorce all the more difficult at a later date. Moreover, if you really are married to a BPDer, your W likely has the emotional development of a four year old and it would take her many years to acquire the missing emotional skills -- in the very unlikely event she is determined to do so.

 

This is one reason I am encouraging you to seek a candid opinion on what you're dealing with from your own psychiatrist or psychologist. Of course, that psych will not be able to render a diagnosis without seeing your W. He will be able, however, to give you his candid opinion about the type of behaviors you've observed over the past 16 years.

 

Generally, psychiatrists tend to be better at diagnosing mental disorders that can be treated with medication -- like schizophrenia, bipolar, ADHD, panic disorder, and severe depression -- because psychiatrists are medical doctors who prescribe the medications used to treat those disorders. In contrast, psychologists have a PhD but not a medical degree. Psychologists therefore tend to have more experience in diagnosing and treating personality disorders such as BPD and NPD.

 

Hence, if you decide that you are seeing a pattern of strong warning signs for BPD or NPD, I would suggest you start with a psychologist. As I noted, they typically excel with diagnosing such disorders. Moreover, because they lack a MD degree, they usually charge about half what a psychiatrist charges for office visits.